MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 18 Aug 2015 09:49

niran wrote:
Kumar Vinod wrote:Cant we sell Arjun outside to other friendly countries like tajakistan, afganistan, vietnam... etc?? it would make a good and profitable tank for sale to other countries!!
around half a decade ago a Country in ASEAN was very much interested, so much so they had a team of their tankist in India evaluating Arjun for 3 weeks. but then GOI refused citing some ahinsa and kaansteatwoshun or some such gibbrish. the deal went to China but currently it is in limbo due to financial reasons, there is still a chance if Arjun is properly marketed.

they wont buy them self and they wont allow to sell either !! then what GOI want from arjun ? A showcase prototype??

Multatuli · Post by **Multatuli** » 18 Aug 2015 11:14

Export of the Arjun tank can not be allowed by the Congress/'leftist' parties, not because of 'ahimsa' or whatever, but because export orders too would help create an indigenous defense industry. Export of the Arjun tank would also cause the Indian public to wonder why the army/government of other countries think the Arjun a good enough tank (better than Russian tanks) while the Indian army/government thinks the opposite. It would create an embarrassing situation for the Indian government and army, and maybe even open the eyes of the Indian public to the corruption regarding arms imports. Clearly the INC/'leftist' parties in India don't want that.

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 18 Aug 2015 12:00

Multatuli wrote:Export of the Arjun tank can not be allowed by the Congress/'leftist' parties, not because of 'ahimsa' or whatever, but because export orders too would help create an indigenous defense industry. Export of the Arjun tank would also cause the Indian public to wonder why the army/government of other countries think the Arjun a good enough tank (better than Russian tanks) while the Indian army/government thinks the opposite. It would create an embarrassing situation for the Indian government and army, and maybe even open the eyes of the Indian public to the corruption regarding arms imports. Clearly the INC/'leftist' parties in India don't want that.

Yes !! implications would be huge !! But Please ADD Current BJP govt In that List even they are Ignoring the Arjun

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 19 Aug 2015 05:03

Care to name the country please that was interested in Arjun

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 19 Aug 2015 07:25

old news
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 26801.aspx

“Bogota has expressed interest in the MBT Arjun. The Colombian army has an immediate requirement for 10 tanks to be followed up with the induction of another 100 over five years,” said a senior official, on the condition of anonymity.

The competitors for the Colombian order include France (MBT Leclerc), US (MIAI Abram), Israel (Sabra), Korea (KI AI) and China.

India’s reluctance to export military equipment could tip the scales in the favour of international suppliers. The ministry of external affairs had recently turned down a Bolivian request for a line of credit to buy seven Dhruv advanced light helicopters worth over Rs 300 crore from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

This is old news and today may be many other countries will be interested in purchasing this tank.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 19 Aug 2015 11:06

While it does warm the heart about India being thought of as potential military hardware supplier, the security aspects calls for a pause for thought.

Can we really sell top of the line items like MBTs and Fighter Aircraft... thereby risking their capabilities and weak-points being available to our enemies.

Of course we will probably be selling the watered down variants but our enemies will not be just the obvious ones with whom we share borders but the bigger ones behind them (who have matured military industries with capabilities to judge the potential of the most capable versions)

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 19 Aug 2015 13:16

Manish_P wrote:While it does warm the heart about India being thought of as potential military hardware supplier, the security aspects calls for a pause for thought.

Can we really sell top of the line items like MBTs and Fighter Aircraft... thereby risking their capabilities and weak-points being available to our enemies.

Of course we will probably be selling the watered down variants but our enemies will not be just the obvious ones with whom we share borders but the bigger ones behind them (who have matured military industries with capabilities to judge the potential of the most capable versions)

By your logic No country will sell others . its not always The Equipment , training support and other factors play a large role . example : if pakistan have AWACS but Not enough Escort to protect it . then even detecting aircraft wont work because There is no stopping the attack.

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 19 Aug 2015 13:17

Export And Self versions have many differences.

Plus Arjun can eaisly find buyers outside. we know its performance and only right marketing is required to sell. plus we can give it a export name like Dessert tigers.
A1
Warrior ... black Lion.
or sanskrit word like Vinashak ... !! etc

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 19 Aug 2015 13:40

Kumar Vinod ji

You misunderstood my post.

I am all for indian military exports... just not the ones which are about to be fresh inductions into our own armed forces

A decade post induction of the Tejas (and hopefully near the FOC of the AMCA), i will be more than happy to see it being offered for export to interested parties

Similarly with the Arjun

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Aug 2015 15:46

Exports of Arjun.Realistically,there may be some problems.German engine.French/Israeli (?) electronics,eqpt.Some nations may be on a black list.Secondly,if there is envisaged competition for German,French,Israeli MBTs,Arjun may not get the green light from them. Cost in comparison with other MBTs? The biggest problem to me is support and spares.If we can't support them for the IA (IA complaints),how will we support them overseas? WE need more numbers ins ervice with the IA. Dhruv/Rudra,etc. on the other hand is eminently exportable.Great operational history-UKhand,Nepal (?),etc.,ordered in the hundreds,and already exported in small number to some nations. There should be a huge thrust to Dhruv exports,followed up by other items in a package. Even the lowly Jag could've been exported had we had the imagination.Many countries do not want "sportscars" to deal with their threats,primarily forces.We missed the bus with the Dorniers too,allowing RUAG to pick up the co. and market the bird. Jags would be ideal for states with insurgency/rebel problems.

member_29112 · Post by **member_29112** » 19 Aug 2015 16:14

Arms exports to get a boost as Ministry of Defence okays 16 broad categories of products

A military stores list, which was drawn up by the directorate general of foreign trade, has been given a go-ahead by South Block, with a new set of rules being framed to manage export clearances. What the list gives is an indication of what India wishes to export in the coming years, after it joins the Wassenaar arrangement, the international export control regime for arms.

Among the items listed in the Indian military stores list are warships, tanks, armoured vehicles, ammunition, rifles and small arms, military training equipment, electronic warfare devices, software, bombs and torpedoes.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 19 Aug 2015 16:22

Philip wrote:Exports of Arjun.Realistically,there may be some problems.German engine.French/Israeli (?) electronics,eqpt.Some nations may be on a black list.Secondly,if there is envisaged competition for German,French,Israeli MBTs,Arjun may not get the green light from them. Cost in comparison with other MBTs? The biggest problem to me is support and spares.If we can't support them for the IA (IA complaints),how will we support them overseas? WE need more numbers ins ervice with the IA. Dhruv/Rudra,etc. on the other hand is eminently exportable.

Its fortunate that the Russians don't offer something in the Dhruv class, else you might have suddenly discovered that the ALH program also employs German/French/Israeli components.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 19 Aug 2015 16:42

^It seems he has forgotten how the tincan is blind without french night eyes.

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 19 Aug 2015 17:05

Manish_P wrote:Kumar Vinod ji

You misunderstood my post.

I am all for indian military exports... just not the ones which are about to be fresh inductions into our own armed forces

A decade post induction of the Tejas (and hopefully near the FOC of the AMCA), i will be more than happy to see it being offered for export to interested parties

Similarly with the Arjun

Fresh induction in our Army but In too small Numbers see Arjun MK2 just 118!! they are buying it like small country size army wrt to arjun. i meant to say if export goes good it will create pressure in our own army to buy more of them.
Shukriya

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 19 Aug 2015 17:09

90% equipment today have some part of other nation. only very few are made on single vendor basis. see F16 and gripen using GE engine but they were in MMRCA?

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 19 Aug 2015 17:19

Philip wrote: envisaged competition for German,French,Israeli MBTs,Arjun may not get the green light from them. Cost in comparison with other MBTs? The biggest problem to me is support and spares

many tanks use same parts made by same companies sites , main guns plus thousands of small parts. bussniess doent work in a way of i wont give to other if u sell it thing !! only very sensitive equipment or technology is not shared ex. Cryogenic engine etc.so there is no point of green light . plus spares are a issue when u just order few of them. once the order book starts filling spares will not be a issue.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Aug 2015 16:59

The Dhruv has French engines,in fact all our helos have firang engines,even the Russian KA-226T which we're acquiring has French engines! Leaving the little nitpicking aside,the crux of the problem seems to have escaped critics.

Some of our export items like Arjun and the LCA have significant Western components, and some interested countries may be on a Western black list. Remember how we didn't buy the Viggen for the DPSA because it has a US engine.Iran for example.Iran and India have enormous mil export opportunities.We also buy lots of Iranian oil in return for which they could buy Indian def, eqpt. Our helos,missiles,naval eqpt.,etc. would be very welcome.In the past we've trained Iranians in Kilo sub ops. We're doing the same for Vietnam. Iran may be very interested in Indian def. ware as it has been blacklisted by the West for decades. With the N-deal under its belt,Russia has been swift to cement the S-300 deal. Sushma S is off to Iran shortly.She should carry with her a fat brochure of Indian milware on offer. Our tactical missiles below MTCR rules are another good range where the problem of firang tech is non-existant. The GOI needs to study carefully a list of major countries ,some of whom may be blacklisted by the West and see whether we can export items which will not generate much controversy,even if the products possess some quantum of firang eqpt.
Vietnam,Indonesia,Malaysia,Thailand (of ancient Hindu culture,to checkmate the Chinese too),the Phillipines,etc. are ASEAN nations where our products may be cheaper and cost-effective. There are many African nations who look towards India still for leadership and support.

A well-planned concerted drive by the GOI/MOD needs to be made.In fact,the MOD should have an export cell with the Min. of Def. Prod. as point man for exports.The MEA missions abroad should also be staffed with mil attaches in every country who should be tasked with exploring def. export avenues. Once a breakthrough is made,many items could follow.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 20 Aug 2015 17:18

Philip wrote:The Dhruv has French engines,in fact all our helos have firang engines,even the Russian KA-226T which we're acquiring has French engines! Leaving the little nitpicking aside,the crux of the problem seems to have escaped critics.

Err.. no its not 'nickpicking'. Your entire argument 'Arjun non-exportable, Dhruv very exportable' is balderdash.

Both employ imported (Western) engines and assorted electronics. If one can be exported, so can the other.

You can try to bury it under Iran/West/MTCR/ASEAN et al irrelevant verbiage, but the plain facts are quite evident to the forum.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 20 Aug 2015 18:25

^The obvious reason for "mercifully" excluding the Dhruv from the un-exportable list is the presence of a french engine in Ka-226T. So much for small mercies.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 21 Aug 2015 19:57

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMfHHbDr-7Q

BEML gives design & Development order to TSIL for ARJUN MKII MBT specialized transporter. (hope this was not posted before)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Aug 2015 12:55

Nitpicking as usual,missing the wood for the trees.Try exporting Arjun to Iran,Venezuela,Syria,etc., countries that aren't pals of the West.Remember how Germany refused to sell Pak U-boats because they feared that the Pakis would pass on the tech to the Chinese? The Germans aren't the French who will sell to anyone who has the money.The oil-rich Gulf states already possess a huge amt. of Western arms,esp. MBTs/AVs. Perhaps we could sell Arjun to the Chinese,since one of their spokespersons had good words to say about it!

Anyway,jokes apart,the main point is that all these years the GOI has been half-hearted about def. sales.Whether it is a false sense of a "Ghandian" attitude (Cong culture) or not that possesses our babus and politicos ,it needs to be rectified.Secondly,we need to highlight weapon systems that work,that have been inducted into the armed forces in significant number.Unless a potential customer knows that first of all it delivers the goods,has been inducted in large number by our armed forces, and that there is an assurance of speedy and effective after sales support,sales will not happen. Thirdly,the MOD needs to establish an export entity/cell,which regularly takes part in intl. defexpos. Unless the product is seen which triggers interest,forget it. India needs to have an "Indian pavilion",one roof under which a range of eqpt. from the various DPSUs are paraded in a slick manner,not like the DRDO/HAL pavs at Aero-India.Having had so many air shows and Defexpos under our belt,surely our pavilion design,presentation of products and those marketing them could be better displayed and trained .One nation from which we could learn and emulate is Israel. Iisraeli pavs are superb and come with very intelligent efficient handlers.

Lastly,the price.There is intense international competition. Our wares should be significantly below those of the established def MNCs.Tales of corruption in def deals in Gulf/Arab states is legion.The Brit govt. refused to allow an enquiry into a deal with the Saudis "in the national interest"! We pontificate about arms dealers and kickbacks when we purchase arms,but are we willing to do the same in selling ours if kickbacks are asked for? Our best hope of exports is to smaller friendly nations who do not have large pockets but need reliable cost-effective systems,easy to maintain and operate.Here,too we have competition at least on the price front from established nations like Russia,China and now even Pak,which has begun to export its own items,some from JVs with China. As for JV items,BMos is a world-beater,but because of its lethality,a v.sensitive export.Other tactical missiles already in service have afar brighter future than Arjun. Unless the IA is forced to buy hundreds of it,who will? Our major strength is in missiles,tactical,etc. Akash's induction is an extra intem on the list.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 22 Aug 2015 19:31

--deleted--

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 22 Aug 2015 19:54

Philip wrote:Nitpicking as usual,missing the wood for the trees.Try exporting Arjun to Iran,Venezuela,Syria,etc., countries that aren't pals of the West.Remember how Germany refused to sell Pak U-boats because they feared that the Pakis would pass on the tech to the Chinese? The Germans aren't the French who will sell to anyone who has the money.

Oh really? Pray tell, what is the grand total of Mistrals in service with the Russian Navy?

Anyway,jokes apart,the main point is that all these years the GOI has been half-hearted about def. sales.

No, the 'main point' was your assertion that Arjun exports were a non-starter while the Dhruv had a huge amount of export potential.

The curious thing is, only one those two would compete with a Russian product in the export market. I suppose its a 'coincidence' that its the same one that you want to label as 'unexportable'.

You can bump up your posts word count with 'the real issue/main point' irrelevancies, but that's not going to bury the facts.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Aug 2015 14:24

The Mistrals are an exception.France has paid up in full for the cancellation,approx $1.3+B accorind to some sources.The US pressurized the current French pres. (without a backbone) to cancel the deal.There is no cancellation of French engines for Russian helos or Brit RR engines for civvy Sukhoi Superjets. Business goes on,esp. in times of severe eco crisis. IMR has a feature which I will condense on the IA's future MBT/FMBT desires,which have drawn much mirth from intl. manufacturers. There's supposedly a spat going on between the IA,babudom,CVRDE,etc. reg.the poor operational record of the A-1 and who is to blame. A-2 costs approx. $5M,compared with a T-90 at $3M. As said before,realistically,what are the chances of Arjun exports? There's huge competition around,cheaper options and operationally,it is still an unknown qty. in the IA itself with just 124 delivered with a large % supposedly non-operational.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Aug 2015 19:14

http://idrw.org/tank-wars-germany-creat ... more-72207
just jump the gun... and
arjun future should not lose focus on weight.. it is better go revolutionary armata types but totally remote controlled autonomous tanks. #UCT. the technology is knocking at doors.. and i'd be surprised if drdo has not done something half way thru

srin · Post by **srin** » 23 Aug 2015 22:24

Philip wrote:The Mistrals are an exception.France has paid up in full for the cancellation,approx $1.3+B accorind to some sources.The US pressurized the current French pres. (without a backbone) to cancel the deal.There is no cancellation of French engines for Russian helos or Brit RR engines for civvy Sukhoi Superjets. Business goes on,esp. in times of severe eco crisis. IMR has a feature which I will condense on the IA's future MBT/FMBT desires,which have drawn much mirth from intl. manufacturers. There's supposedly a spat going on between the IA,babudom,CVRDE,etc. reg.the poor operational record of the A-1 and who is to blame. A-2 costs approx. $5M,compared with a T-90 at $3M. As said before,realistically,what are the chances of Arjun exports? There's huge competition around,cheaper options and operationally,it is still an unknown qty. in the IA itself with just 124 delivered with a large % supposedly non-operational.

Is there a public source for full cost of A2 and T-90 ? What does this cost include ? Does it include ammunitions (including missiles) ? And does the T-90 include the various customizations and indigenizations (DRDO developed main barrel, panaromic thermal sight, etc) ?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Aug 2015 23:09

And which year. Wiki:

Unit cost $2.5 million in 1999,[1] $2.77 – 4.25 million USD in 2011 (varies by source)[2] T-90MS: 4.5 Million

Do not know what it does not include.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Aug 2015 23:10

Exporting Arjun is a matter of greasing, the normal path.

Making white black is a known and time tested mechanism.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 23 Aug 2015 23:14

Kumar Vinod wrote:Export And Self versions have many differences.

Plus Arjun can eaisly find buyers outside. we know its performance and only right marketing is required to sell. plus we can give it a export name like Dessert tigers.
A1
Warrior ... black Lion.
or sanskrit word like Vinashak ... !! etc

Dessert tigers.

Are they made of chocolate?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 24 Aug 2015 03:09

Can we export some of these anti-******** to Russia?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 24 Aug 2015 03:52

Vivek K,

Negative ROI.. Loss making proposition.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Aug 2015 10:47

Costs are from the IMR article on the issue.Will post more details later.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 24 Aug 2015 12:03

^Yeah, like that supposed to make it some god given gospel. The presstitutes will quote some old figure like some posters here and thats all there is to it.

srin · Post by **srin** » 24 Aug 2015 16:31

Philip wrote:Costs are from the IMR article on the issue.Will post more details later.

Yes please - I'm exceedingly curious to know how they have calculated the T-90 cost with Indian barrel, french thermal sight and Indian armor. And if it includes separate import of mine ploughs and Invar missiles. And as NRao said, which year they have considered.

Multatuli · Post by **Multatuli** » 24 Aug 2015 16:59

Viv S wrote:

No, the 'main point' was your assertion that Arjun exports were a non-starter while the Dhruv had a huge amount of export potential.

The curious thing is, only one those two would compete with a Russian product in the export market. I suppose its a 'coincidence' that its the same one that you want to label as 'unexportable'.

You can bump up your posts word count with 'the real issue/main point' irrelevancies, but that's not going to bury the facts.

Instead of to clarify some people use words to obfuscate. Obfuscate the issue and instead offer something irrelevant as an alternative.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 24 Aug 2015 19:17

AoA
The arjun was an invited contender when KSA went shopping for tanks one decade ago.
GOI didn't send the tank onlee

Tha japanese had sent a rfi for the Kaveri jet engine when they were evaluating mil jet engines again like 5-7 yrs ago

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 24 Aug 2015 20:02

The arjun was an invited contender when KSA went shopping for tanks one decade ago.
GOI didn't send the tank onlee

Actually i think that is/was a good thing

Imagine having to face the Arjun (with some halal name) from the other side of the border with our T-90s

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 24 Aug 2015 20:36

February 2, 2015: The Arjun Mk.II main battle tank has cleared all user trials with the Indian Army successfully and now awaits a maintenance evaluation by the Army and, crucially, a detailed evaluation by the Director General of Quality Assurance (DGQA). The Army has on order 118 tanks that will begin delivery once these two final evaluation processes are complete, likely by mid-2015. The Phase IV user trials demonstrated trench crossing and step climbing capabilities of the Mk.II tank starting in September 2014. Last year, dynamic trials of 120 mm penetration-cum-blast (PCB) ammunition for MBT Arjun Mk II were conducted successfully at PXE, Chandipur..................

Maintenance evaluation and DGQA evaluation ...any updates ??

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 Aug 2015 21:32

Manish_P wrote:
The arjun was an invited contender when KSA went shopping for tanks one decade ago.
GOI didn't send the tank onlee
Actually i think that is/was a good thing

Imagine having to face the Arjun (with some halal name) from the other side of the border with our T-90s

Well maybe THAT would convince the IA of the need for buying Arjuns instead of tincans and phantom FMBTs.

Many times, I wish the pakis had bought M1A1s when they evaluated them in the 80's. We would have seen multiple IA regiments operating Arjuns by now. Or maybe Leopard 2s. You can never tell with the IA.

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 02 Sep 2015 11:22

Cosmo_R wrote:
Kumar Vinod wrote:Export And Self versions have many differences.

Plus Arjun can eaisly find buyers outside. we know its performance and only right marketing is required to sell. plus we can give it a export name like Dessert tigers.
A1
Warrior ... black Lion.
or sanskrit word like Vinashak ... !! etc
Dessert tigers.

Are they made of chocolate?

still the IA wont eat that