LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 23 Aug 2015 18:58

^Unless the former and serving IAF personnel are completely ignorant/insensitive of budget restrictions, they can't be seriously thinking of gold plated toys from europe in real numbers and without numbers, they are even more pointless, save for vanity's sake. So, such wet dreams will remain just that. The only viable/economical alternatives are LCA and on the higher end (you are gonna love this) Su-30MKI/FGFA. And despite their delays and birth pangs both the LCA as well as the FGFA are the only current realistic alternatives.

Remember the fact that these toys are a bigger/more immediate threat to the FGFA, rather than LCA.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 23 Aug 2015 19:02

We all know these AMs... ~~Late~~ errr Light Combat Aircraft is not good enough for ~~Imported~~ errr Indian Air Force. It is time they smell the coffee and wake up from their sleep.

member_28482 · Post by **member_28482** » 24 Aug 2015 09:30

If LCA-Mk1 got big export order..................

http://idrw.org/lca-tejas-cleared-for-e ... ibilities/

Selling Points for LCA Tejas would be

1. modern design concepts
2. fly-by-wire Flight Control System
3. Advanced Digital Cockpit
4. Multi-Mode Radar
5. Integrated Digital Avionics System
6. Flat Rated Engine
7. short takeoff and landing
8. excellent flight performance
9. electronic warfare suite
10. radar warning receiver and jammer
11. laser warner
12. missile approach warner
13. chaff and flare dispenser

add more ............

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 24 Aug 2015 10:33

^You forgot the most important one of them all, DOESN'T COST THE EARTH.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Aug 2015 10:43

If the LCA had achieved FOC as planned,and put into IAF service,one is sure that another big order would come. It is cheaper only on paper. Even production rates are figurative,noit actual. By now 4 series prod MK-1s were supposed to have been delivered,only one has appeared.The non-appearance of it only encourages expensive firang purchases,whether from east or west. The GOI has much to blame (mostly Cong),for not kicking ADA/HAL backsides over the last few years.They've wasted much time,resources and effort on the non-appearance of the IJT and HTT-40. Two dead ducks. The thrust should've been on getting the LCA MK-1 into service asap. The inexplicable delay in getting the MK-2 prototype out over the last few years is another mystery.The engine,414, was chosen aeons ago.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 24 Aug 2015 11:50

^^^^ Adding.

1 ) Made in India A2A missile & PGM's almost completed.
2 ) Integration of any A2A missile or PGM from Israel or Russia of both (if customer insist)
3 ) Quick turnaround time & easy to maintain.
4 ) @30m very cheap

Best for Emerging airforces or those who want to replace there old F16/mig29/ etc @ low cost.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 24 Aug 2015 12:00

Best for India as well.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 24 Aug 2015 12:25

There are some 5K mig 21 kind of ACs are there in the world as of now and most of which can be replaced with LCA. It is something MOD is totally missing. They are still in 100% import oriented mode.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 24 Aug 2015 12:57

Forget IAF, they are imported Air force etc, lets just focus on developer, manufacturer and exporter/approver.
ADA and HAL are convinced about LCA MK.1 and MoD has approved for export of Tejas. So now what is HAL waiting for. Just make and sell in numbers and forget IAF orders to create a production line.
So many contradictions

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Aug 2015 13:00

Two points here

The bottle neck for IAF to accept in numbers seems to be production issue at HAL , The same issue will remain when they try to export it , just that the export customer would be less forgiving with timelines compared to IAF.

The second is we need to get export approval for the other players which sells component for Tejas the Israel , US SD for Engine , Moog for actuators etc , some may not be forthcoming at all.

member_28482 · Post by **member_28482** » 24 Aug 2015 13:14

http://idrw.org/jk-iafs-mig-21-aircraft ... -district/

Sad 1 More Crashed, By god's grace Pilot is safe. We really need to expedite LCA at war footing, no chalta hai attitude will work.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 24 Aug 2015 13:59

IAF has total of 6 Air Refueling tanker aircraft and may add another 6 in next 5 years. It has 200 (272) Su-30MKI that have air to air refueling capacity, apart from C-130s, C-17s, P-8 etc. That is there are almost 50 aircraft against each tanker. Therefore the only reason for creating an "immediate" requirement of air to air refueling for LCA is to kill it by delay.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Aug 2015 14:29

being the shortest range player in the pool of A2A and A2G birds available, the Tejas mk1 will be the last priority in operational sense for AAR. it would be silly to delay FOC due to this. get it done and call it FOC2 but there is no need to hang the FOC1.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Aug 2015 14:39

People interested in killing know no logic. Their goal being to kill.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Aug 2015 19:45

The current N-LCA design should have a low spot factor (however the IN defines it, but I would guess if it uses that sort of metric in its design requirements it would be in relation to the Harrier) anyhow given its small size..I would think it would be lower than the Mig-29K's even with its folded wings..

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 24 Aug 2015 19:56

ashrivastava wrote:If LCA-Mk1 got big export order..................

http://idrw.org/lca-tejas-cleared-for-e ... ibilities/

Selling Points for LCA Tejas would be

1. modern design concepts
2. fly-by-wire Flight Control System
3. Advanced Digital Cockpit
4. Multi-Mode Radar
5. Integrated Digital Avionics System
6. Flat Rated Engine
7. short takeoff and landing
8. excellent flight performance
9. electronic warfare suite
10. radar warning receiver and jammer
11. laser warner
12. missile approach warner
13. chaff and flare dispenser

add more ............

300 a/c ordered by IAF

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 24 Aug 2015 21:37

Source?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 25 Aug 2015 07:24

^^ Mods ..if the newj ain't true, ban Cosmoji for causing jingoes hopes to rise to astonishing heights even if wonlee momentarily.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Aug 2015 08:33

Folks - that was not news. Cosmo was simply adding to a wish-list posted earlier.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 26 Aug 2015 06:04

Thanks Shiv, you get it. The LCA is not exportable without IAF orders in quantity. We are the only ones who buy a/c that are nor purchased in huge numbers beforehand by the exporting country (MiG 29K and even the SU-30), Others fear to tread where we romp.

OK so pakis bought JF-17 but they are thinking/hoping to export it after having inducted it in some numbers.

@Anurag. The answer to "Source?" will be IAF

Abhibhushan · Post by **Abhibhushan** » 29 Aug 2015 23:00

In this thread, there is a constant refrain that the IAF is against the induction of the LCA . The proof, as per the critics, is the IAF's refusal to place 'meaningful' numbers on the order book. This moan sounds strange to my ears. I would therefore try today to compare the development and production history of another aircraft, the English Electric Lightening with that of the our LCA Tejas.

Mr Petter made his first pencil sketches of a swept wing twin engined fighter, which ultimately became the Lightening, in 1946 47. He progressed to the stage of metal cutting for the first two prototypes by 1950. These two were to prove his concept. These prototypes flew in July August 1954.

Initial test flights called for some changes. New prototypes were built in 1954. On these new prototypes, supersonic flights (M1.2) was achieved in 1957. Speed of M2.0 was achieved in 1958. The RAF placed orders for 20 pre-production and 30 operational aircraft. The 20 pre-production aircraft were delivered by July 1959. The first SP aircraft flew in October 1959. Deliveries to RAF began in Dec 59. Enough aircraft were delivered to form the first squadron (No 74) by Jun 1960. After 19 aircraft were produced at production standard F1, the build standard was upgraded to F1A. 24 aircraft were built at this standard and two new squadrons were raised.

By July 1960, the build standard was upgraded again to F2. Forty four aircraft were built to this standard. Two more squadrons were raised. 31 of the 44 aircraft at F2 were upgraded to build standard F2A.

62 aircraft were then built to standard F3. The five squadrons were equipped with the F3 version of aircraft. (Some of the older aircraft withdrawn from the squadrons were exported to Gulf Countries)

The final build standard F6 came about in 1965. Apart from the single seater F series, 20 two seater trainer T version were also built. The aircraft served with the RAF till 1988.

I flew in a trainer T4A with No 74 squadron in 1965!!!

I do not remember English Electric (or Later, the BAe ) cribbing about unreal number of orders. I think initial orders of aircraft are mostly in the 30 /40 range. If I remember correctly, the first RAF order for the Gnat Trainer was also for only 29 pre production models.

Once HAL starts supplying the Tejas, I am sure more orders will follow!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Aug 2015 23:14

The argument above is dubious on many grounds.

1.One, the British had a substantial aircraft industry, India does not, apart from license manufacturing other folks designs. This actually reiterates the argument that the IAF behaves as it has limited interest or commitment to fostering a local production base.

2.It also flies in the face of long term indigenization and planning wherein only 40 aircraft orders are deemed sufficient to enable ADA/HAL to make many SMEs contribute their limited resources to a program with no confirmed orders beyond the initial ones. Or, HAL/ADA have to budget the indigenization within their own fiscal resources.

Yet the IAF insists indigenization must be high (60% plus) and uses leaks in media etc to point to this. Enough rtd folks have been on TV etc to claim likewise.
Was the Lightening even a fraction as sophisticated as the LCA and any 4G aircraft is? Does the kind of production capability required to make these systems come cheap?

The IAFs 40 aircraft orders in the past leveraged off of other aircraft industries which had far larger orders. Mirage 2000? Ordered by France, Egypt. Also India. MiG-29? Made in the 100's for SU.. India a small add on.
Su-30? Based off of the Flanker series with most of its systems common with the Su-30 MK and Su-27 families, again, made in the hundreds in FSU. IAF orders over 200 of the type even as the final versions are yet to be finalized and the Mk-1, Mk-2, Mk-3 capabilities remain to be proven. Radar went through its final certification only a year or so back.

Rafale? IAF currently insisting that 36 aircraft are not enough and more are required even for the initial order.

3.Given IAF is currently flying the almost obsolete MiG-21 and MiG-27s, yet complaining about falling aircraft numbers, a 40 aircraft order is certainly too limited. Did the RAF at the time of the English Lightening induction or otherwise, think it had to hold off the Red Air all by itself without NATO/USAF, which is our problem in a dual front scenario, PLAAF and PAF both? Yet it went complaining that it needed far more expensive aircraft than the Lightening to replace aircraft lower in capability than the Lightening itself?

4."I am sure more orders will follow" - of what guarantee is this surety given the IAF disinterest in the program in years past and their on/off interest in it? Does this "surety" also keep production lines going. As the IAF is discovering with the C-17, their order methods do not hold true for even foreign OEMs.

Here is what we know for sure. Multiple IAF folks on record stating they have plans for only 2 LCA Mk1 squadrons and 4 LCA Mk2. Around the same numbers as the MMRCA. In the same vein, they pitch for the MMRCA and other expensive aircraft which (literally) bankrupt the capital budget. And there are constant complaints existing aircraft are too few and obsolete (which many are). A 40 aircraft order, of a type offering far more capability than the existing MiG-21/27 types in several areas then seems increasingly implausible, given the CAP even on the more advanced Mk2 type at 4 squadrons.

If the IAF were to commit to more Mk2, it would be one thing. But they haven't done that either.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 29 Aug 2015 23:44

Let the production line at least get going at the rate of 8/yr or 12/yr

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 010_1.html

How the aircraft performs in squadron service is another unknown. The feedback from squadron service will also inform future decisions.

It is not the lack of additional orders that is holding up FOC or causing the delays in meeting the targeted production rates.

It's common sense that the production line will not be left idle once 40 Mk 1 have been built.

Equally, more orders for Mk 1 should not be an excuse for delaying the development and production of Mk 2.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Aug 2015 01:22

>>It's common sense that the production line will not be left idle once 40 Mk 1 have been built.

There is no public statement from the IAF on this matter to determine whether they agree with this common sense or not.

>>How the aircraft performs in squadron service is another unknown. The feedback from squadron service will also inform future decisions.

What then is the exacting IOC, FOC process for? Does it not include considered IAF feedback on expectations from squadron service or otherwise?

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 30 Aug 2015 01:36

IAF is short of aircraft, so obviously some additional LCA Mk 1 would not be rejected. All we have is this statement from an unnamed person who may or may not have authority:

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.co.uk/2015/0 ... -asks.html

“We can assure HAL that, if it accelerates the delivery of fighters to the point where it seems likely to deliver 40 Tejas Mark I before the Mark II is ready, we will certainly place orders for more Mark I fighters. The assembly line will not be kept idle. That is our assurance,” says a senior IAF officer.

What is more worrying is this:

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has aimed a serious blow at the Tejas Mark II Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), with a letter telling the Indian Air Force (IAF) that it does not have the manpower to work on developing an improved version of the current Tejas Mark I.

The Bengaluru-based public sector aviation monolith says its engineers are already stretched with existing projects, including the Tejas production line, design and prototype manufacture of a basic trainer aircraft, the Hindustan Turbo Trainer – 40 (HTT-40); and the testing and production of the Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT).

So HAL is allocating manpower to an aircraft (HTT-40) the IAF does not want or need but is not prepared to allocate resources to LCA Mk 2, which is a critical national security project. How is this behaviour tolerated by the MoD?

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 30 Aug 2015 01:46

Squadron service will bring out parameters like serviceability, level of support provided by HAL and others, integration with other systems (AWACS, refuellers, other fighters), development of tactics, and slowly but surely, Tejas will find its niche in the scheme of things. More IAF orders right away is really not the issue. We need to get the first squadron up and running. IAF will absorb every Tejas the country can build.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Aug 2015 02:46

Unnamed sources are one thing but clearly there are no official commitments at this point.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 30 Aug 2015 02:59

eklavya wrote:Squadron service will bring out parameters like serviceability, level of support provided by HAL and others, integration with other systems (AWACS, refuellers, other fighters), development of tactics, and slowly but surely, Tejas will find its niche in the scheme of things. More IAF orders right away is really not the issue. We need to get the first squadron up and running. IAF will absorb every Tejas the country can build.

how can one is sure of that ?

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Aug 2015 04:12

I'm seeing Arjun MBT redux. By the time IAF gets around to order more there will be production gaps. I don't think there is a realization that it takes around 36-months from order to begin first lot deliveries. Look at Arjun MNT line for instance. It's been sitting idle for more than 3-years now because the IA didn't get around order second batch of Mk.1 until it was too late and then it was decided to move that order to Mk.2, which it still hasn't approved for production holding out on missile firing capability when other 80+ improvements have been successfully passed user acceptance!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Aug 2015 05:39

de-link this ordering business from IAF. times up folks!

IAF must focus on what has been delivered, complain about it, get it fixed, upgraded, and what not.
DRDO must fix the issues, deliver to promise, and keep doing it.

when we can't walk, stop complaining about the runs. just get to work.
no more of this order-shorder stuff.

let gov fix the numbers now. PERIOD.
if namo can announce 36 rafales.
he can very well say 256 LCAs Mk2

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 30 Aug 2015 06:41

eklavya wrote:IAF will absorb every Tejas the country can build.

Did that come out of an unnamed "senior IAF officer" as well, or did it come from the nether regions?

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 30 Aug 2015 11:15

^^^^
It's called common sense. Accepting this point would deny you the excuse to abuse the IAF, which has no place on this forum.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 30 Aug 2015 11:37

eklavya wrote:^^^^
It's called common sense. Accepting this point would deny you the excuse to abuse the IAF, which has no place on this forum.

Can we stop this exchange - it is getting disruptive and noncontributory

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 30 Aug 2015 13:56

Guys cut out the shit or we'll have to start taking firm and possibly irrevocable action. Everyone.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 31 Aug 2015 17:16

Today is 31st August 2015 - End of August. HAL has 4 more months to deliver how many LCA MK-1's by end 2015, as per their last promise? AFAIK, One LCA-MK1 aircraft of IOC (IOC-1 or IOC-2?) standard has been given to IAF, correct?

PS - Just trying to see how much HAL has to catch up on firm orders? (IOC-1 achieved on 10th Jan 2011 & IOC-2 achieved on 20th Dec 2013).

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 01 Sep 2015 01:15

Yagnasri wrote:
eklavya wrote:Squadron service will bring out parameters like serviceability, level of support provided by HAL and others, integration with other systems (AWACS, refuellers, other fighters), development of tactics, and slowly but surely, Tejas will find its niche in the scheme of things. More IAF orders right away is really not the issue. We need to get the first squadron up and running. IAF will absorb every Tejas the country can build.
how can one is sure of that ?

Very sure of that.

If you go over the absorption time period articles for the Su30 MKI ... they serve as a good validators of what eklavya states.
I have come across similar stuff for the Tu-142 for the Navy and Mirage 2K for the IAF but since they were inducted ahead of the information age we are less aware of these.

This is almost natural. Buy a new car and you will figure out turning capabilities, handling speeds, service requirements.
The JF-17 across the line has had similar process as well.

This learning period is when IAF really shines, the initiative to innovate permeates the entire cadre of IAF and brings out the best results.
Can't wait for the LCA squadron to be stood up. Its gonna be super awesome. Look forward to it.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Sep 2015 02:53

If you go over the absorption time period articles for the Su30 MKI

Absorption time by whom?

The IAF used the K to absorb too.

Agree that the first squadron is needed for the IAF. But equally urgent is for the line to keep going. For which they need orders.

Two totally diff, but equally important needs.

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Sep 2015 04:05

Agree. Production orders and nebulous "absorption time" are two different things. If the IAF were waiting for 70% Su-30MKIs availability rates (as part of their "absorption time") before ordering more MKIs, it would only have those original 40 or so aircrafts up till now.

AFAIK, typical squadron setup with a new type takes 3-years (or longer). It includes training of pilots and maintenance crews, developing aircraft tactics, setting up base infrastructure, and other things like stocking of spare parts and supplies (post-induction servicing infrastructure). It takes even longer to determine usage rates and optimal infrastructure/inventory to increase/maintain serviceability rates.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 01 Sep 2015 06:01

NRao wrote:
If you go over the absorption time period articles for the Su30 MKI
Absorption time by whom?

The IAF used the K to absorb too.
Agree that the first squadron is needed for the IAF. But equally urgent is for the line to keep going. For which they need orders.
Two totally diff, but equally important needs.

Absorption time by the IAF and HAL.
Lets concentrate on something that will be born when the first IAF Squadron is raised.
A Feedback Loop that will go from HAL to IAF, from IAF to HAL to name the two most important.
IAF handling of equipment and uptake of spare parts inventory will dictate orders to other labs or Private entities.
Feedback on quality of equipment may help in making better decisions.

Your mention of the Ks before the MKI just validates what I said. Induct it in its current form into a provisional Squadron (if so possible).
Under strength it and start the feedback loop of what it takes to back a fighter in the inventory of the Indian Air Force.

The test school is an excellent example of this kind of feedback loop and how that has aided in direct and quicker improvements in the cockpit no ?
We need that expanded across the whole spectrum.

Someone once said ... build it and they will come.
I merely repeat .... induct it and they will turn.

by the way I am not across this whole fuss of the production line at all. Do whatever it takes to keep the team together , busy and improving things for Tejas.

By the way, have we got an HF designation for the Tejas ?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 01 Sep 2015 06:18

If you induct it without a pioneering vision, then they will merely complain about maintenance and the like. The stories about the Arjun are a pre-cursor to the LCA induction. I hope I am wrong but this passion for imports is sad.