PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Aug 2015 08:42

Some amature footage of PAK-FA flying

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 24 Aug 2015 08:48

^^^The discussion of various mijjles, bums, and aircraft platforms was brought in to this thread by yourself in a lengthy post. Now that there are people responding and you want all positive news all the time, please say so and I'll be happy to leave the discussion.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Aug 2015 08:54

Mort Walker wrote:^^^The discussion of various mijjles, bums, and aircraft platforms was brought in to this thread by yourself in a lengthy post. Now that there are people responding and you want all positive news all the time, please say so and I'll be happy to leave the discussion.

I just posted the news from Janes and many were relevant to PAK-FA , you want to discuss other thing there are appropriate thread of it. If you want to leave its your choice Sir

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 24 Aug 2015 09:02

^^^Sure, but your items were vast and I kept my post in relation to that and only responded twice in this thread. In any case, I'll keep it to the PAK-FA as long as everyone else can.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Aug 2015 09:09

Mort Walker wrote:^^^Sure, but your items were vast and I kept my post in relation to that and only responded twice in this thread. In any case, I'll keep it to the PAK-FA as long as everyone else can.

I couldnt link this from another board and I had to post in Full , Any ways lets keep this to PAK-FA

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 24 Aug 2015 09:11

No problem comrade Austin.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Aug 2015 09:13

Welcome Comrade Walker

from pre-MAKS

50

http://aviaforum.ru/attachments/artyoma ... pg.491596/
http://russianplanes.net/images/to172000/171433.jpg

32 , 50 , 35

http://russianplanes.net/images/to172000/171377.jpg
http://russianplanes.net/images/to172000/171440.jpg
https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4521/24 ... 76e2f_orig
https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/15538/1 ... c3e37_orig
http://russianplanes.net/images/to172000/171444.jpg

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 24 Aug 2015 09:32

Nice pics.

It is interesting that the Russian context of stealth doesn't involve reducing the infrared signature of the engines. Any reason for this?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Aug 2015 09:39

Mort Walker wrote:Nice pics.

It is interesting that the Russian context of stealth doesn't involve reducing the infrared signature of the engines. Any reason for this?

You mean the smoke part , I think its just happened under certain condition , I have seen even F-22 smoke in some video in certain condition or even Rafale or 32/35

They only aircraft that had true IR reduction for engine is B-2 , rest its difficult to reduce Engine signature of any aircraft when you are doing 9-15 tons of thrust and temperature of more than 2000 degree.They use some tiles on the inside of nozzle or just behind it to reduce heat but how much it helps is another matter.

And if I am not wrong modern IIR guidance images the aircraft and it can well see even a B-2 , of the famous picture of Rapier EO ball tracking a B-2 in airshow

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Aug 2015 14:49

The smoke isn't an issue with the PAKFA, that was a photo was most likely clicked when the pilot was most likely adjusting throttle..IR signature requirements have existed for all stealth aircraft in both he short and long wavelengths..The B-2's at an air show was performing for the crowd at a display altitude..In reality it would be operating at a much higher cruise altitude and using the thinner cooler air to mask itself. It is also the only aircraft that uses a laser-radar to check for rear contrails and adjust flight to minimize them. Other stealth aircraft have nozzles that include heat absorbing material, buried engines that reduce nozzle exhaust air temperature etc etc etc...Here's a paper on how IR signature is measured and tested for a stealth fighter aircraft form the rear hemisphere, they had kitted an older fighter to carry the sensor load..

I think the pAKFA will definitely have something in the future but overall the more important area is to have fuel cool you down from avionics because your primary concern is IRST sensors at medium ranges from the frontal hemisphere detection. IR missiles at short ranges is less of a headache because you are unlikely going to look to defeat those just based on stealth (have countermeasures)..

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Aug 2015 15:11

I think the problem for Stealth or any aircraft is that new gen AAM are IIR/FPA based , they simply look at the whole aircraft and keeps the image as reference , so they do not really depend on heat spots alone and hence difficult to spoof.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Aug 2015 15:21

Yeah but when you get to that point then stealth is the least of your worry since at visual ranges most aircraft can use radar and IRST and high end modern WVR weapons have data links..The concept of IR suppression on a stealth aircraft has more to do with IRST's whose's ranges are only getting better and better. A lower IR signature aircraft will mask itself at those ranges where false alarm rates are likely to be higher..Significant IR signature is going to only make the FAR problem easier for the sensor fusion to pick up...There is considerable weight on a modern stealth fighter attributed to the channeling for using fuel as a heat sink. I know for a fact that it was a major design driver for the raptor and F35 and there were requirements that these programs had to meet (AIAA papers cover most of these aspects). The channeled rear end of the F-23 was also meant to reduce temperature of exhaust gasses as they left to tackle the problem of rear-IRST detection, and they used tiles similar to those on the space shuttle to reduce the temperature of th air as it left the exhaust cavity..

The final version of the PAKFA is years away from first flight..They are still tinkering with some of the design aspects, I am pretty sure they'll have a strategy to manage IR signature at medium ranges..what that strategy is will be known in the coming years. The problems come from two primary flight characteristics...One is high altitude sustained supersonic flight (the raptor has this problem as well) where the enemy figtehrs at lower altitudes can look up against a cold background and pick a very fast moving hot aircraft (temperature analysis was presented by CSBA for various speeds and altitudes configurations), the other is the sheer amount of thermal management required for the vast sensor and avionics suite..

..Subsonic loiter at medium altitudes is probably best for an IR signature perspective but if you are going to go high and fast you need extra thermal management capability baked into the design, and this has practically forced the fuel / heat -sink concept to manage that even though it adds weight and complexity to the design.

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Aug 2015 04:25

Austin wrote:R-77 has an upgrade in RVV-SD, posted many times before

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/567/

We know of upgrade work that is being done for eons now (every airshow/brochure talks about it), but still nothing to show for it. R-77 came online around 1994 and in the two decades following no updates have come through as of yet. In the meantime, AIM-120 AMRAAM has had quite a few upgrades (i.e. A -> B -> C1-7 -> D).

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Aug 2015 07:31

srai wrote: http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/567/

We know of upgrade work that is being done for eons now (every airshow/brochure talks about it), but still nothing to show for it. R-77 came online around 1994 and in the two decades following no updates have come through as of yet. In the meantime, AIM-120 AMRAAM has had quite a few upgrades (i.e. A -> B -> C1-7 -> D).

Nothing to show as in ? You cant figure out just looking at the missile if its upgraded or not.

Those AIM-120 (ABCD etc ) is just an american way of designating missile for incremental/major upgrade.

The R-77 upgrade path roughly was 50 km range , 80km and 110 , there is no specific designation of the 1 and 2nd path other then 77M . even RVV-SD is just a export designation internally it just goes by designation R-77-1

Things like ECCM upgrade or better RF may just not get any specific designation and would be part of incremental upgrade.

You can just check the link it has some details on history of R-77 and the upgrade path ....just click on the top for translate to english

http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-105.html

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Aug 2015 11:50

^^^

I question the sources. If there were any major upgrades to keep R-77 current, then it would been customary to give it a new designation. No one seems to be buying it anymore. The IAF and RuAF being prime examples.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Aug 2015 12:07

srai wrote:^^^

I question the sources. If there were any major upgrades to keep R-77 current, then it would been customary to give it a new designation. No one seems to be buying it anymore. The IAF and RuAF being prime examples.

Its up to you to believe or not , I just share info that is openly available.

Even MICA does not have any designation beyond IR and RF but that does not mean it did not go trough some upgrade atleast the ECCM stuff that keeps happening.

IAF wont go to town stating what it has or does not be it R-77 or Mica or other BVR , the fact that IAF even uses R-77 on 29 came thought PAF chief interview via janes in mid 90's , All Russian Aircraft sold any where uses R-77 BVR , including 29/29k , MKI and Bison in IAF.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 25 Aug 2015 13:57

Has the RuAF finally starting buying the R-77?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Aug 2015 14:22

brar_w wrote:Has the RuAF finally starting buying the R-77?

there are enough picture of Su of RuAF with R-77 , if you are interested in numbers etc you can post at keypubs there are enough Russian there who might be better aware of inventory in their force.

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Aug 2015 15:03

^^^
From my understanding, R-77s were bought at one time (late 1990s to early 2000s) but no new orders for a while now. But I could be wrong.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 25 Aug 2015 15:16

The Original R-77's i.e the IZd 170 was procured in limited quantities. The subsequent thrust in terms of missile production was to cater to the demand from the export customers that primarily included China (around 1200-1500 missiles) and India. In 2010, the RuAF starting performing testing of the improved R-77-1 (Izd. 170-1). The plan was a few years back to begin procurement of the Izd. 170-1, while waiting for the k-77M for the pAKFA. Alexander Zelin announced in 2013 that the RuAF will begin producing the R-77-1 shortly. Since then, I have not come across any further information whether the plans have come through or not and if so what the inventory modernization plans are looking like over the next 5-10 years.

For unconfirmed reports one has to go into russian forums and kepublishing as Austin suggests. A quick search there reveals that the IZd-1 (R-77-1) has not appeared in quantity yet (or at all). If true they may as well wait for the M variant and mass produce that for the fleet. The modernization of the BVR weapon inventory has been long overdue for the RuAF and will take some time to both get large quantities of the R-77-1 and develop and operationalize quantities of the K-77M for internal carriage and external carriage on the stealth fighter.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Aug 2015 15:28

brar_w wrote:The Original R-77's i.e the IZd 170 was procured in limited quantities. The subsequent thrust in terms of missile production was to cater to the demand from the export customers that primarily included China (around 1200-1500 missiles) and India. In 2010, the RuAF starting performing testing of the improved R-77-1 (Izd. 170-1). The plan was a few years back to begin procurement of the Izd. 170-1, while waiting for the k-77M for the pAKFA. Alexander Zelin announced in 2013 that the RuAF will begin producing the R-77-1 shortly. Since then, I have not come across any further information whether the plans have come through or not and if so what the inventory modernization plans are looking like over the next 5-10 years.

You can say that for any inservice Russian missile , they mostly dont publish plans for inservice weapons just for export.

Some systems like passive variant of R-27P inducted in 89 was not known to have existed till they approved for export and was disclosed by Janes in 2004

You can say the same for inservice Indian weapon like we see MKI with KH-31 or R-27 but no one know how much has been purchased till date in how many quantity and batches , Kh-31 itself have few variants we dont know if IAF operates all of it or just ARM one.

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Aug 2015 16:39

Austin wrote:...
You can say the same for inservice Indian weapon like we see MKI with KH-31 or R-27 but no one know how much has been purchased till date in how many quantity and batches , Kh-31 itself have few variants we dont know if IAF operates all of it or just ARM one.

SIPRI has some info related to that (but it may not always be up-to-date/accurate). This was from last time I checked (updated recently):

AAM

4,200 x R-73/AA-11 Archer SRAAM (1995/1996) [delivery: 1995-ongoing]
200 x R-27/AA-10 Alamo BVRAAM (1995) [delivery: 1995][Additional $250 million order placed in 2012 (~500 units)]
1,000 x RVV-AE/AA-12 Adder BVRAAM (1999) [IAF delivery: 1999-2002]

AGM

1000 x KAB-500KR Guided Bomb (1998) [delivery: 1998-2007][also seen on MiG-29UPG, MiG-21 Bison]
500 x Kh-29/AS-14 ASM (1995) [delivery: 1995-2004][reported wrongly as Kh-25; also seen on MiG-27]
200 x Kh-31A1/AS-17 Anti-ship missile/ARM (1997) [delivery: 2000-2007][Kh-31P and possibly Kh-31A version]
100 x Kh-59ME Ovod/AS-18 ASM (1999) [delivery: 2001-2002]
?? x Kh-35A Uran/AS-20 ASM (?) [part of MiG-29UPG]
216 x PJ-10 BrahMos ASM (2012) [delivery: N/A]

IN - MiG-29K deal

540 x RVV-AE/AA-12 Adder BVRAAM (2006/2011) [IN delivery: 2006,2012-2014]
100 x KAB-500 Guided Bomb (2011) [IN? delivery: 2013-2014]
50 x Kh-35A Uran/AS-20 Anti-ship missile (2011) [delivery: 2012]

Source: http://armstrade.sipri.org/armstrade/pa ... gister.php

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Aug 2015 09:14

The UN register has more accurate details if the sides choose to revel the transaction , SIPRI generally tends to inflate things

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Aug 2015 09:15

MAKS 15 opening day airshow video

Picture of Su-30 and PAK-FA side

http://s020.radikal.ru/i700/1508/37/663992ef7413.jpg

srai · Post by **srai** » 26 Aug 2015 10:39

Austin wrote:The UN register has more accurate details if the sides choose to revel the transaction , SIPRI generally tends to inflate things

The same guys at SIPRI are probably writing those reports for UNROCA. UN uses a lot of consultants to do its job.

SIPRI - UN Register

...
SIPRI Arms Transfers Programme researchers describe developments in reporting to UNROCA in the SIPRI Yearbook. They also conduct research projects on the functioning and further development of UNROCA and publish their findings. Since 2008 particular attention has been paid towards the issue of reporting international transfers of SALW to UNROCA.

Paul Holtom, Director of SIPRI Arms Transfers Programme, served as the consultant to the 2013 UN group of governmental experts on the continuing operation of the United Nations Register of Conventional Arms and its further development
...

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 27 Aug 2015 05:05

New Russian Sukhoi PAK Missile For Fifth-Generation Stealth Fighters To Exceed Mach 3.5

Russia will equip its fifth-generation Sukhoi T-50 stealth fighter with missiles that can travel at Mach 3.5 speeds, roughly around 2,302 mph. The newly designed X-58USHK missile, which will be fitted to the T-50 when it enters service in 2016, is one of the fastest combat weapons ever produced. It is also viewed as a future top-selling defense item owing to its speed, characteristics and small size, the Russian government-backed news agency Tass reported Wednesday.

"The X-58USHK missile for the fifth-generation fighter is at the final stages of development. ... The flight speed will exceed 3.5 Mach," said Boris Obnosov, CEO of Tactical Missiles Corporation, the company manufacturing the missile.
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The Sukhoi T-50, which Russia is developing with the Indian military at a cost between $8 billion and $10 billion, is slated to become one of the most advanced stealth fighter jets, alongside the U.S.-built F-22 Raptor, which was introduced in 2005.

While the U.S. is still developing variants of its F-35 jet, which is described as a stealth multi-role fighter, it’s not yet fully known how the jet will compare to Russia’s much cheaper T-50. Overall program costs for the F-35 are around the $1.5 trillion mark.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Aug 2015 11:49

Some Weapons of PAK-FA on display including the newer Kh-59 and 58 ARM for internal carriage , plus other pics from MAKS

http://sandrermakoff.livejournal.com/854125.html

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Aug 2015 06:48

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 035_1.html

Completely short sighted of the IAF if true.

Business Standard also learns the IAF has vetoed a Russian offer to co-develop a fifth-generation engine for the FGFA. This is baffling to the Russians, given the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) long-standing attempts at joint engine development in order to end India's expensive dependency on foreign vendors for aero engines. An internal DRDO estimation reckons that India will import aero engines worth Rs 3,50,000 crore over the next decade.

DRDO and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) officials say the Russian offer of engine co-development fits well with the FGFA project itself, since the engine will power the same fighter. Currently, the Sukhoi T-50 is powered by the NPO Saturn AL-41F1, which only is a souped-up version of the AL-31FP engine that powers the Sukhoi-30MKI. A brand new, more powerful, engine is needed to let the FGFA supercruise, or fly at supersonic speeds while cruising without an afterburner. This is considered essential for a fifth-generation fighter.

But even the defence ministry is questioning why the IAF is delaying a project it has earlier championed, and to which India has committed itself with an Indo-Russian inter-governmental agreement (IGA) and the expenditure of about $300 million in a "preliminary design phase". Critics of the IAF allege it is scuttling the long-term benefits of co-developing the FGFA in order to quickly buy the Rafale, preferably in numbers larger than the 36 fighters that the prime minister requested in Paris in April. A defence ministry official says that, in its eagerness to obtain the Rafale, the IAF has deliberately placed holds on every other aircraft procurement, including the FGFA, the Tejas and the plan to extend the Jaguar's service life by fitting it with a new engine.

According to this official, the IAF aims to create the impression of a dangerous shortage of fighters, so that the government buys the Rafale quickly. In another volte-face, the IAF has proposed that the FGFA not be co-developed but limited numbers of the T-50 fighter be built in India.

The MOD really really needs to fix things.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 28 Aug 2015 07:50

Those are some serious accusations.....

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Aug 2015 07:51

A gent in the know I spoke with couple of months back mentioned that though the reported squadron level is at 32 but the real strength is some where around 24-25 that can be used in conflict ( Note I am not talking about operational availability but the real squadron that available )

IAF squadron issue is much more acute then what is reported by MOD , I think IAF is noosehardy for the same reason its a case of now or never , if Rafale deal gets cancelled then they may have to wait for 5 more years for the next deal to be signed if at all or just resign to the fate of operating much lower number of squadron , which in any case is operating at lower sanctioned squadron level.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Aug 2015 07:51

Need to wait till we have official news from MoD or the IAF.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 28 Aug 2015 08:08

Austin wrote:A gent in the know I spoke with couple of months back mentioned that though the reported squadron level is at 32 but the real strength is some where around 24-25 that can be used in conflict ( Note I am not talking about operational availability but the real squadron that available )

IAF squadron issue is much more acute then what is reported by MOD , I think IAF is noosehardy for the same reason its a case of now or never , if Rafale deal gets cancelled then they may have to wait for 5 more years for the next deal to be signed if at all or just resign to the fate of operating much lower number of squadron , which in any case is operating at lower sanctioned squadron level.

Which is pretty good as that is 75% availability.

srai · Post by **srai** » 28 Aug 2015 08:09

Karan M wrote:http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 035_1.html

Completely short sighted of the IAF if true.

Business Standard also learns the IAF has vetoed a Russian offer to co-develop a fifth-generation engine for the FGFA. This is baffling to the Russians, given the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) long-standing attempts at joint engine development in order to end India's expensive dependency on foreign vendors for aero engines. An internal DRDO estimation reckons that India will import aero engines worth Rs 3,50,000 crore over the next decade.

DRDO and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) officials say the Russian offer of engine co-development fits well with the FGFA project itself, since the engine will power the same fighter. Currently, the Sukhoi T-50 is powered by the NPO Saturn AL-41F1, which only is a souped-up version of the AL-31FP engine that powers the Sukhoi-30MKI. A brand new, more powerful, engine is needed to let the FGFA supercruise, or fly at supersonic speeds while cruising without an afterburner. This is considered essential for a fifth-generation fighter.

But even the defence ministry is questioning why the IAF is delaying a project it has earlier championed, and to which India has committed itself with an Indo-Russian inter-governmental agreement (IGA) and the expenditure of about $300 million in a "preliminary design phase". Critics of the IAF allege it is scuttling the long-term benefits of co-developing the FGFA in order to quickly buy the Rafale, preferably in numbers larger than the 36 fighters that the prime minister requested in Paris in April. A defence ministry official says that, in its eagerness to obtain the Rafale, the IAF has deliberately placed holds on every other aircraft procurement, including the FGFA, the Tejas and the plan to extend the Jaguar's service life by fitting it with a new engine.

According to this official, the IAF aims to create the impression of a dangerous shortage of fighters, so that the government buys the Rafale quickly. In another volte-face, the IAF has proposed that the FGFA not be co-developed but limited numbers of the T-50 fighter be built in India.

The MOD really really needs to fix things.

IMO, there are plenty of options available and a more rational approach now would be the following rather than hedging everything on Rafale:

Accept limited number of 36 Rafales and move on: they are too costly to afford any more than that now or in the immediate future. Better option would be to abandon it due to its unaffordability.
Second-hand Mirage-2000s: look around for second-hand Mirage-2000s and see if any could be picked up and standardized within budget. Couple of squadrons would be a nice gap-filler.
Order more Su-30MKI: local production line is in full swing till 2018; why not continue the production line for a bit more longer? Invest in Super-MKI to address obsolescence and remain competitive.
Order more LCA Mk.1: local production is beginning; very affordable and apt replacement for MiG-21/27s; why not order more than 40 units?
Invest in FGFA development: it's just round the corner, i.e. 2023. This is close to non-American 5th-Gen India will get its hands on in the next 10-years. 25-30% R&D share is better than none.
Invest in LCA Mk.2 development: it's just round the corner too, i.e. 2023. Order more than 4 squadrons.
Invest in the Future in AMCA and UCAV: These are post 2030 induction.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Aug 2015 08:13

Apparently FAF Mirage 2000 availability is low too.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Aug 2015 08:16

This is a two headed hydra.

The IAF needs planes, not R&D.

The offer for r&d for both plane and engine is a DRDO/lab problem.

Not sure why everyone is confusing the two.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Aug 2015 08:19

Karan M wrote:Apparently FAF Mirage 2000 availability is low too.

France is not a good example to compare to. They are the proverbial king without clothes.

srai · Post by **srai** » 28 Aug 2015 08:20

NRao wrote:This is a two headed hydra.

The IAF needs planes, not R&D.

The offer for r&d for both plane and engine is a DRDO/lab problem.

Not sure why everyone is confusing the two.

The user needs to support R&D as a national objective especially when spending a huge amount of FOREX reserves. That money needs to be put back into the nation to build its competitive capabilities. Sure, there are pressing needs at the moment (and those could be "artificially" aggravated to get what it wants as the report hinted) but somewhere along in there the user needs to find a balance to satisfy both objectives.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Aug 2015 08:30

^^^^^

If there were enough to understand that simple logic India would be leading the world in everything by now.

Looks like each player has his own country. IAF does what they want, Army does what she wants, MoD what to say - Middle of D, Labs in a zone of their own. Wait until Armata rolls down Janpath.

Hand over the nation to ISRO

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 28 Aug 2015 08:36

There is clearly lack of leadership in MOD and MP has to do more to stop the mess in many areas.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Aug 2015 09:11

Replied here http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 1#p1892771