Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 11 Oct 2015 17:52

Thanks for the informed comments on trips SSridhar. This does seem to be a motivated report, parlaying an administrative snafu into a deliberate attempt to incite trouble.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 11 Oct 2015 18:50


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby uddu » 11 Oct 2015 18:57

When someone in here wrote why there is no Agni test for a long time and started to speculate, i did foresee that the media will write an article about it. Now it came. :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jayasimha » 11 Oct 2015 19:43

SSridhar wrote:This news report about stopping DRDO missile tests appears completely dubious to me. There are various groups working on various projects and the pace at which projects get completed would differ for a thousand reasons. Repeated trials are also necessary and nobody in his right senses would stop trials. These trials are done with a purpose.

.



may be not..... I think some "top" resources and attention are diverted to the below mentioned news.
The IE article may not be giving the "real" reason for postponement..
JMT

prasannasimha wrote:http://www.deccanherald.com/content/505801/indigenous-nuclear-submarine-undergo-missile.html

Indigenous nuclear submarine to undergo missile firing tests
It left the harbour for its sea trials in December 2014.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28108 » 11 Oct 2015 19:52

What would happen if we suddenly hear a direct K4 test ? or even a K X ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramdas » 11 Oct 2015 20:24

@prasannasimha: that would be a pleasant surprise, but till it happens, we have to assume the worst.

My guess is that entrenched babu interests are ensuring that things do not move on this front: after all, a credible , fully operationalized deterrent would buy us time to cover up conventional weaknesses through a loner process of indigenization rather than off the shelf imports: what happens to babu's cuts then ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Rahul M » 11 Oct 2015 20:27

am willing to bet that the report is utter tosh. someone's kite flying.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramdas » 11 Oct 2015 20:28

@KaramM: these ``adminitrative snafus" have been on for far too long: they can eventually affect the credibility of our deterrent vis a vis PRC. After all the Agni 4 is a developed missile, and only user trials remain. If these get postponed, it sends signals that top drdo resources and attention are required for its testing, when it should be a SFC operation now. If these ``administrative snafus" come from babus throwing a spanner in the works, it is time GoI read the riot act out to the babus.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Anujan » 11 Oct 2015 21:33

Thakur_B wrote:
Bheeshma wrote:Vel is Spear in tamil. Shiv's son Karthikeya's weapon. I think thats what it stands for.


Thank you. Either would be acceptable to the jingo :)


There was a project Vetrivale (Vetri-Vel, victory spear) for upgrading the avionics for SU-MKI http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/aircr ... ivale.html

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 11 Oct 2015 21:34

How many trials of Agni IV were conducted so far?
A retired DRDO scientist quoted by Bharat Karnad had said three successive successful trials are needed.

I also think so from statistics : probability and confidence levels.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28108 » 11 Oct 2015 21:44

Two one direct and the other was canistered.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28108 » 11 Oct 2015 21:45

Actually even 3 would assure repeatability but you really cannot get CI with 3 samples .

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prasad » 11 Oct 2015 22:05

If Nirbhay is being tested out of Arihant and it being its 'second' test and that too on a brand new platform is quite the statement.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 11 Oct 2015 22:10

I though AV was cannister launch.

Am asking about A IV.
3 successive successful trials give 90% confidence level.

DRDO launches different ones every time!

OK here is scoop:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni-IV

* 15 November 2011: Agni-IV was successfully test fired for the first time, from a road mobile launcher at 9AM from Wheeler Island off the coast of Orissa. The missile followed its trajectory, attained a height of about 900 km and reached the pre-designated target in international waters of the Bay of Bengal. All mission objectives were fully met. All systems functioned perfectly till the end encountering re-entry temperatures of more than 3000⁰C.[4]
* 19 September 2012: The missile was successfully test-fired again for its full range of 4,000 km from the Wheeler Island, off the Orissa coast.[8] The missile lifted off from a road mobile launcher at 11.48 a.m. and after zooming to an altitude of over 800 km, it re-entered the atmosphere and impacted near the pre-designated target in the Indian Ocean with remarkable degree of accuracy following a 20-minute flight. Carrying a payload of explosives weighing a tonne, the missile re-entered the atmosphere and withstood searing temperatures of more than 3,000°C.[2][9]
* 20 January 2014: The missile was test-fired in the actual weapon and road-mobile configuration of the Strategic Forces Command (SFC), from the launch complex-4 of the Integrated Test Range at Wheeler Island off Orissa coast. The missile traveled a vertical distance of 850 km and covered its full range of 4,000 km. The on board ring laser gyro-based inertial navigation system (RINS) and the micro-navigation system (MINGS) enabled the missile to fall within 100 meters of its target. The re-entry shield withstood outside temperatures as high as 4,000°C, enabling the avionics to work at less than 50°C inside. The missile's production line will start by end of 2014 or early 2015 and its induction into the SFC will happen simultaneously.[10][11]
* 2 December 2014: The missile was successfully test-fired by the Army’s Strategic Forces Command (SFC). This was the first user trial and fourth consecutive successful flight.[12] The missile has been inducted into the Indian Army.[13]



So its inducted and has the 3 trials past it.

New test is for SFC readiness.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28108 » 11 Oct 2015 22:22

A4 has already undergone multiple launches (4) and has already been inducted into the army.The 4th Launch was by the SFC as a user trial.
How can 3 launches assure a 90% probability. It depends on what was the distance of each shot to the target.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby NRao » 11 Oct 2015 22:29

these ``adminitrative snafus" have been on for far too long: they can eventually affect the credibility of our deterrent vis a vis PRC


When it comes to deterrence, both, administrative and snafus, could be two distinct part of the deterrence itself.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 11 Oct 2015 22:33

First 3 stages are identical regardless of trajectory.
Only re-entry changes.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srin » 12 Oct 2015 08:31

Folks - how do we know no missile has been tested ? We know that K-15 was underwater-launched almost a dozen times before we learnt of it, so lack of official announcement means nothing.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_29151 » 12 Oct 2015 12:55

S 400 in Nov : Russian Trip?

Since the Soviet era, Russia and India have enjoyed mutually beneficial strategic relations, especially in the field of defense and military cooperation.
In 2014, the total value of weapons and military hardware delivered by Russia to India reached $4.7 billion, according to Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation estimates.
The S-400 Triumph is an air defense missile system, which integrates a multifunction radar, autonomous detection and targeting systems, anti-aircraft missile systems, launchers, and command and control center. It is capable of firing different three types of missiles capable of destroying aerial targets at short-to-extremely long range.


Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/2015101 ... z3oL8tB4z6
http://sputniknews.com/military/20151011/1028361087/india-may-buy-russian-s400.html

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 12 Oct 2015 13:09

our proposed initial ABM shield which was approved for Delhi and Mumbai initially has gone all quiet now. hope it is still on track and not held up by funding and politics.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_20453 » 12 Oct 2015 14:11

12 S-400 systems, does that mean 12 Battalions or 12 regiments? Each battalion it appears has upto 8 launchers, i.e 32 missiles. Can be a mix of the 40N6 long range 400km missile & the 9M96E2 120 km missile. I think we are looking at around 384 missiles in total if indeed we buy 12 battalions. But if we are buying 12 regiments, a regiment can easily have 2-3 battalions. Assuming 12 regiments with 3 battalions each we suddenly have a lot more missiles i.e between 768-1152 missiles. I hope they mean 12 regiments, the entire nation's airspace becomes pretty much impregnable when combined with other like Akash, Spyder/ Barak-MR etc.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 12 Oct 2015 14:43

isnt the IAF version of Barak around 120km range and already funded ?

looks like S400 would ship with mostly big missiles if the idea is to cover another layer beyond that or threaten high value large a/c far away

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_29151 » 12 Oct 2015 14:52

Septimus P. wrote:12 S-400 systems, does that mean 12 Battalions or 12 regiments? Each battalion it appears has upto 8 launchers, i.e 32 missiles. Can be a mix of the 40N6 long range 400km missile & the 9M96E2 120 km missile. I think we are looking at around 384 missiles in total if indeed we buy 12 battalions. But if we are buying 12 regiments, a regiment can easily have 2-3 battalions. Assuming 12 regiments with 3 battalions each we suddenly have a lot more missiles i.e between 768-1152 missiles. I hope they mean 12 regiments, the entire nation's airspace becomes pretty much impregnable when combined with other like Akash, Spyder/ Barak-MR etc.

Well for Sure .
Public figure is 12 may be it will go UP Requested By AF so Base Long Range Defence from cruise missiles? Deployment On INDO-CHIN Border For Tejpur AFB Etc ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby nash » 12 Oct 2015 15:16

If it is 12 systems not battalion , then as per wiki :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-400_(missile)#Structure

Only 1 system comprising up to eight divisions (battalions) can control up to 72 launchers, with a maximum of 384 [42] missiles (including missiles with a range of less than 250 km).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 12 Oct 2015 15:17

Septimus P. wrote:12 S-400 systems, does that mean 12 Battalions or 12 regiments? Each battalion it appears has upto 8 launchers, i.e 32 missiles. Can be a mix of the 40N6 long range 400km missile & the 9M96E2 120 km missile. I think we are looking at around 384 missiles in total if indeed we buy 12 battalions. But if we are buying 12 regiments, a regiment can easily have 2-3 battalions. Assuming 12 regiments with 3 battalions each we suddenly have a lot more missiles i.e between <a href="tel:768-1152">768-1152</a> missiles. I hope they mean 12 regiments, the entire nation's airspace becomes pretty much impregnable when combined with other like Akash, Spyder/ Barak-MR etc.


At what costs though? Is there enough budget set aside for it?

IMO, don't really see a need for it. 400km sounds too good to be true. Those ranges will be for high altitudes and slow moving aircrafts but at those ranges both radar and missile can be spoofed by powerful ECCM suites.

Unlike in the past, various indigenous SAM options are becoming available i.e. Akash Mk.1/2 (30/50km), Barak-8/ER (70/100+km) and BMD series (PAD/PDV/AAD/AD-1/AD-2). Better to invest money into these systems to make them iteratively better while inducting in large numbers.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srin » 12 Oct 2015 16:10

My guess is for BMD - DRDO must have asked for more development time.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 12 Oct 2015 16:39

Guys dont get confused please.

S-400 - primarily AD + TBM/MRBM. Its a derivative of S-300 PMU, and some even refer to it as S-300 PMU3. 400km missile still in development.
S-300VM - primarily ABM (TBM/MRBM) and powerful against AD targets too. We evaluated this and chose to make our own BMD. 400 km missile available.
S-500 - brand new architecture and speculation is it will combine S-300 PMU/VM families into one.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby deejay » 12 Oct 2015 17:04

^^^ Nice brochure of S-400. So, it will detect a B2 bomber, F 117 etc. I see no Chinese or Paki aircraft on that list. Why do we need this again? If we need this, we need 126 + Rafales. I place a buy on stocks of Russian Economy which I am going to boost with my income tax.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sudhan » 12 Oct 2015 17:49

-deleted-
Last edited by sudhan on 12 Oct 2015 19:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 12 Oct 2015 17:59

LCA combat radius is 500 kms.

Please desist from such CTs attempting to run down a local product based on flimsy conjecture. Next, some media idiot will be quoting it as fact, and then some chap here will quote it as proof, given the internet is nothing but an echo chamber at times.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 12 Oct 2015 19:04

^^^
With AAR, LCA combat radius would be much more. 750km+ easily.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sudhan » 12 Oct 2015 19:13

Karan ji, I agree... Will delete my post lest it gives some dumbo ideas..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby dinesha » 13 Oct 2015 12:08

Nuke-capable Nirbhay cruise missile to be test-fired on Thursday
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... -thursday/

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Oct 2015 12:12

Is there any way we can get Nirbhay on to INS Chakra and her sister ships, would be useful.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby kmkraoind » 13 Oct 2015 12:20

Just some noob questions.
1. Can we use radar data of S-400 missile systems, for Aakash missiles and/or for our desi missile systems.
2. Does 400 KM long range one can knockout leo-orbit sats?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 13 Oct 2015 12:40

Aditya_V wrote:Is there any way we can get Nirbhay on to INS Chakra and her sister ships, would be useful.


if the dimension in wiki of 6m and 0.52m diameter are correct, it is sized exactly like a regular heavy torpedo and will fit into any std TT and torpedo room rack. the only fitment needed will be a box in the TT or control room to program its flight path prior to launching and the electrical/data interface cable for the same which may differ from existing.

when Klub was put on our Kilos a similar panel like we saw in the caspian sea kalibr video would have been put in somewhere. so its very doable including the Scorpene because it carries black shark torpedo of same size.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Oct 2015 13:04

The reason I ask, INS Chakra will have a much better payload.

The next question, is there any use firing Brahmos from INS Arihant's vertical tubes?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 13 Oct 2015 13:36

akula has room for 40 weapons. keeping 6 torps for self defence, 34 nirbhays to lay waste.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sudhan » 13 Oct 2015 14:08

kmkraoind wrote:Just some noob questions.
1. Can we use radar data of S-400 missile systems, for Aakash missiles and/or for our desi missile systems.
2. Does 400 KM long range one can knockout leo-orbit sats?


For 2)

AFAIK, the 400 km range is possible only when the 40N6 interceptor is used, the interceptor employs a ballistic flight path and gains a peak altitude of approx 150-180 kms before diving down on the target at extreme engagement ranges. As per open source lit, the 40N6 is ideally for lumbering mil cargo aircrafts, AWACS, Re-fuellers etc. So theoretically, looking at the altitude the interceptor can reach it might seem usable to knock out some low hanging LEO sats, but no established capabilities and probably not practically usable as an effective ASAT weapon (unlike an Aegis system, whose interceptors have a purposed built kinetic kill warhead for exo-atmospheric interception).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 13 Oct 2015 14:43

Karan M wrote:Guys dont get confused please.

S-400 - primarily AD + TBM/MRBM. Its a derivative of S-300 PMU, and some even refer to it as S-300 PMU3. 400km missile still in development.


S-400 has 4 missile in its list

9M96E - Range 40 Km , Alt - 20 Km , ARH Homing HTK System , Against Air Breathing Target and MRBM class Missile ( 1000 km Range ) Naval Variant
9M96E1 - Range 125 km , Alt - 30 km , ARH Homing HTK System ,Against Air Breathing Target and MRBM class Missile ( 1000 km Range ) Naval Variant
48N6DM - Range 250 km , Alt 30-35 Km , SAGG Guidance , Against IRBM Target with range of 3000 km ( 4.8 km/sec ) , Air Breathing Target
40N6 - Range 400-450 km , Alt - 185 km , ARH Guidance , Against IRBM target with range of 3500 km ( 5 km/sec ) , Air Breathing Target

40N6 started in the service this year , the other three existed for quite some time.

S-300VM - primarily ABM (TBM/MRBM) and powerful against AD targets too. We evaluated this and chose to make our own BMD. 400 km missile available.


S-300V system is the Ground Force Weapon ( S-300PMU and S-400 belongs to Airforce ) , S-300V has 2 variant , S-300V3 and recently inducted S-300V4 which has a range of 400 km

Export Model goes by designation Antey-2500 , which has range of 350 km , both the export model and S-300V4 is capable of intercepting IRBM target with range of 3000 km.

Check the latest Antey-2500 http://www.spslandforces.com/story.asp?id=244

S-500 - brand new architecture and speculation is it will combine S-300 PMU/VM families into one.


S-500 is anti-ICBM role against target corresponding to speed of 7 km/sec and LEO satellites and yes against air breathing targets too


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