Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

[nirav]

any junk china makes, pakistan buys

Based on the "itne paise me itnaich" theorem, its obvious that the Chinese are selling the Naval PAjis 8 underwater tractors.

Good target practice for our kamorta class and P8i's.

@Aditya : corrected it ..

[Karan M]

Good thing is we have 6 Towed Array sonars on order (10 more proposed if local ALTAS doesn't work out) & with new NMRH choppers , these tractors should have a good counter.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2014/11/a ... tract.html
http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories ... oppers.htm

[Aditya G]

....Good target practice for our scorpenes.

The counter against SSKs is ASW ships and maritime patrol aircraft, not other SSKs.

I think a SSK will have to be really lucky to get to hunt another. or well planned to have the target swim by you.

happy to be corrected

[rkhanna]

any junk china makes, pakistan buys

This Idea of "Asian" Junk - was said about the Japanese in the 70s/80s then the Koreans in the 90s/00s and now the Chinese. While true yesterday (and today) may not apply tomorrow.

[arun]

X Posted from the STFUP thread.

Indian origin Dhruva Jaishankar of the German Marshall fund has written an op-ed in Foreign Policy titled “The Definition of Insanity Is U.S. AfPak Strategy”.

On the central problem in the Af-Pak Fak-Up, namely the Uniformed Jihadi’s of the Punjabi dominated Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

The central problem confronting the United States in the region is no longer al Qaeda or the Taliban. It’s the Pakistan Army, which has always pursued its own objectives over those of the country it is meant to defend. The Army has a 40-year history of supporting terrorists against Afghanistan, India, and (more recently) Americans. Even in the absence of a smoking gun, there is little doubt that the Army and its intelligence agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) directorate, sheltered Osama bin Laden and protected Taliban leader Mullah Omar. This policy of supporting terrorism has been driven by a warped ideology, political imperatives, and corporate interests. The Army has long used Islamism and imagined foreign threats to consolidate its political primacy and shore up its commercial interests, which range from cement to telecommunications.

On the US plan to provide an India type nuclear deal to the US’s Major Non NATO Ally, the nuclear weapon technology proliferating Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

The proposed agreement to mainstream Pakistan’s nuclear program and the failure to address the Pakistan factor in Afghanistan are, in Trump’s parlance, just dumb, dumb, dumb. The White House seems completely removed from South Asia’s political and security realities. It’s quaint, almost funny, that U.S. officials and experts still worry about a “rogue commander” with “radical sympathies” seizing control of a Pakistani nuclear bomb. The Pakistan Army radicalized and went rogue many years ago.

From here:

The Definition of Insanity Is U.S. AfPak Strategy : The central problem confronting the United States in the region is no longer al Qaeda or the Taliban. It’s the Pakistan Army.

[Brad Goodman]

BBC Hindi link here http://www.bbc.com/hindi/international/ ... na_cpec_rd

सेना को सीपीईसी परियोजनाओं की सुरक्षा की महती ज़िम्मेदारी दी गई है और करीब 10,000 सैनिकों वाली एक नई डिविज़न को तैयार करने के आदेश दिए गए हैं.
लेकिन ऐसा लगता है कि जनरल फ़ौजियों की कुल संख्या को बढ़ाने के लिए इसका इस्तेमाल करने पर विचार कर रहे हैं जो अभी 50 लाख सक्रिय सैनिकों के क़रीब है.

इसका पहला संकेत तब मिला जब सेना प्रमुख जनरल राहील शरीफ़ ने एबटाबाद में पाकिस्तान सैन्य अकादमी का दौरा किया और कैडेट की संख्या में सालाना 20 फ़ीसदी बढ़ोतरी की अनुमति दी.

अब चूंकि सेना में सभी कैडेट अधिकारी बनते हैं इसलिए प्रशिक्षण की समाप्ति पर अधिकारी कैडरों की संख्या में वृद्धि का मतलब है कि उसी अनुमात में सैनिक भी बढ़ाए जाएंगे.

SO there will be 20% increase in officers and proportionately 10000 foot soldiers will be added to Pak army under the guise of CPEC

[Karan M]

any junk china makes, pakistan buys

This Idea of "Asian" Junk - was said about the Japanese in the 70s/80s then the Koreans in the 90s/00s and now the Chinese. While true yesterday (and today) may not apply tomorrow.

"Tomorrow" will come when it comes but as it stands there is a huge difference between what PRC claims it can do and what it does.. its basically into reverse engineering and making ripoffs.
Those subs are going to be Kilo ripoffs with performance issues even so. Capable but a gen behind what we have with our Scorpenes and probably behind even the PN's Agosta's. They are buying them because they have no choice. Subs are good weapons for TSP Navy; any conventional combatants will be Brahmos fodder so with subs they think they can be a dedicated nuisance for the IN. On our part we have to maintain deterrence capability and detection and prosecution capability with towed array sonars, choppers and the like.

[rkhanna]

"Tomorrow" will come when it comes but as it stands there is a huge difference between what PRC claims it can do and what it does.. its basically into reverse engineering and making ripoffs.

Yes, i could say that with a HUGE degree of confidence in 2005. Maybe not so much anymore. And i am saying this due to my exposure to APAC technology capability/capacity (most part civilian) over the past decade.

[shiv]

"Tomorrow" will come when it comes but as it stands there is a huge difference between what PRC claims it can do and what it does.. its basically into reverse engineering and making ripoffs.

Yes, i could say that with a HUGE degree of confidence in 2005. Maybe not so much anymore. And i am saying this due to my exposure to APAC technology capability/capacity (most part civilian) over the past decade.

Actually I have rarely seen Indians make the "Chinese stuff is not good enough" claim on BRF. In fact I have been attacked for so much as casting doubt on the efficacy and quality of a Chinese weapon system - to the extent that I used to make posts with a disclaimer saying how much I respect and fear Chinese weapons before apologetically questioning something.

The only people who have been continuously critical of Chinese stuff are American jingos. Certainly not Indians who have tended to come down heavily on anyone questioning Chinese quality with the put down that such people wear blinkers and will live to regret it. "Never underestimate the Chinese" is a lecture I have received time and again. To that extent I am surprised by the claim that you used to be confident in 2005 that Chinese was not good enough. Surely your views in 2005 were different from the rest. I must not even dream of saying that there is anything less than terrific from China.

In fact I do tend to find that a whole lot of hype comes from China - especially when they compare themselves with US tech - but my saying that usually makes someone tells me to shut up because I am Indian and China is ahead of India. So I am not supposed to say anything that does not worship and praise Chinese weapons. Cramps my style a bit but as an Indian I know I am supposed to see myself as a citizen of a perpetually inferior nation that was kicked by the Chinese and will never live that down. No other viewpoint is acceptable - because we lost once and we will lose again and again and again.

Here is a link to the disclaimer I used to make so as to avoid being told off for being critical of China
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... e#p1363631

[Karan M]

"Tomorrow" will come when it comes but as it stands there is a huge difference between what PRC claims it can do and what it does.. its basically into reverse engineering and making ripoffs.

Yes, i could say that with a HUGE degree of confidence in 2005. Maybe not so much anymore. And i am saying this due to my exposure to APAC technology capability/capacity (most part civilian) over the past decade.

One must differentiate between civilian and military technology to a degree. The former always outdistances the latter in terms of deployment and advancement. In India for instance, we have had an IT boom for almost 2 decades now. Only now are we deploying test beds for complex C3I networks, such as ADC&RS. Its not merely that the private industry sector was not taken into confidence or kept out. Also, one must see where the PRC guys really are as versus their PR. India for instance, took the hard way for doing its own LCA mostly inhouse, with limited by WW standards funding. PRC its more and more evident, bought out the Lavi design, and pretty much acquired Israeli and Russian tech lock stock and barrel. Their AWACS designer admitted their real breakthrough in radars came only after the Israelis transferred TRM design and production know how. Added to this is their own effort in making families of local designs which familiarize them with significant challenges and so forth. However, when J-10 figures were revealed recently (by accident) at some Chinese airshow, folks were surprised to note it was barely equivalent to an upgraded MiG-29. This after a decade of PR on the net wherein folks had started thinking the J-10 was some super fighter equal to or better than the most advanced Gripen. I read on Wiki, copied from some Chinese website, how the latest Chinese ATGM was such a local achievement and so forth. The patriotic designer moved his bed into the factory etc. When pictures and specs of the new thing emerged, its visibly an Israeli Spike.

Now if we take a look at the latest Chinese submarines - they will be equivalent to a Kilo class submarine, but with upgrades - especially electronics, wherein China will likely use more off the shelf computing systems and commercial tech than Russia used to (but is changing). They will not be in the class of (say) a Scorpene or an upgraded variant or even the more esoteric stuff we are evaluating for Project 75/75I. However, the Pakistanis don't have an option and will take these as versus say the Indian Armed forces who will push for nothing but the most advanced systems off the shelf. For instance, even with the Super-30 upgrade, IAF is pushing for AESA options & has been holding out for a while now. PRC basically took the Su-27SK, localized it, and is now looking at the Su-35S.
In short, their approach is pragmatic & they combine a core of cutting edge stuff (usually imported from Russia) along with much larger numbers of locally produced gear which appears to be functional and is ok, but in many cases, compared to best in class standards, significantly behind.

Which is not to say we should underestimate them & be idle. If anything, we should be aware and be careful & continue to retain our edge and invest more in our own MIC as well. They will most certainly advance by leaps and bounds, but I do think that today and even tomorrow, if the Pakistanis could have afforded it, they would have gone French or German but not Chinese for their submarine line.

[Gagan]

China makes good things and the not so good things.
All the top of the line mobile phones, electronics are now made in china, or atleast their parts are. These are in facilities that the westerners have set up, closely monitor to ensure that quality is maintained.

Then there is the china, which shamelessly copies the bajaj autorickshaw and the bajaj pulsar motorcycles, with poor quality of workmanship, poor metullurgy so that the frames breakoff/bend/rust, engine konks off, chinese made battries go bust after working for about 20% of their life, overheat and catch fire etc.

Their defense goodies? Specially the ones they export? The JF-17 Thunder is the prime example, which the chinese military, the bangladesh or the srilankan military don't want. It remains a poorly designed, poorly finished, technologically inferior product, which the PAF has bought because the only planes they had in bulk were chinese mig-21 knockdowns or the post-ww2 era Shenyang J-6 (they had 250 odd)!

Since this would be china's 2nd gen conventional sub, but the export model, which the Pakistanis will be guinea pigging for the chinese, one can only imagine what the quality will be like. Without going into specifics, they will be maintenance intensive, noisy, prone to breakdowns and fires. One hopes that the chinese cater to the size of the TFTAs, and not the midget size of the chinese soldier when putting bunks and chairs in this sub design. The entire emphasis is on the sub being cheap and affordable - and when the chinese try to do that for customers like Pakistan, one can expect the worst onlee.

The IN and IAF will have to keep an eye out for these increased numbers, but they should be detectable if they ever come close to IN fleets. I think that the Pakistanis will use these with the agostas exactly like they plan to use the F-16 and JF-17. The F-16 will be the only meaningful strike aircraft, while the bundar will do patrol duties, and make very minimal forey into enemy territory except in a soosai mission.

[Karan M]

I went looking to see whether Pakistan wanted Chinese subs to begin with, and here is what I found.

The Pakistan Navy negotiated for the purchase of three Type 214 submarines to be built in Pakistan in 2008. During the IDEAS 2008 exhibition, the HDW chief Walter Freitag told “The commercial contract has been finalised up to 95 per cent,” he said. The first submarine would be delivered to the Pakistan Navy in 64 months after signing of the contract while the rest would be completed successively in 12 months.[4][5] After wavering for over two years Pakistan dropped the deal in favor of a new negotiation with China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Co. Ltd. for a set of submarines that have yet to be designed.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_214_submarine

This reminds me of the same way Pakistan went to put French radar and Mica missiles + IRST, avionics on JF-17 and India signed a Mirage 2000 upgrade deal, and the Pakistanis then went Chinese making defiant proclamations to AFM and other media, that Chinese stuff is now good and Pakistan rocks.

Looks like the PRC gave a nice line of credit and the Germans played hardball on financing.

I was reminded of this BRF class viz Germany and Pakistan about how negotiations between Pakistan and Germany would be. Pleze explan by ven you wud lize ze zubmarines and how you will pay fur dem.

https://sites.google.com/site/brfdictio ... ice-schidt

Haji Laka Mauda and Haji Chadder Moad,

Hera Pheri Trading Co.
235,Sharea e Faisal
Karatchi
Pakistan

We refer you to our Agreement for Two parcels auf 5000 Tonne each auf Rice vich you haf sent Two Times by 25 Kontainers each time unter Bill Auf Lading No. HPTC-GuRHm GmbH 003/2010 und Bill Auf Lading No. HPTC-GuRHm GmbH 004/2010

Deez two shipments auf rice ve got from you vas mitt mice schidt mixt. Der rice vas gut enuff, but der mice durds schpoils der trade. Vee did not see der mice schidt in der samples vich you sent us.

We hav checked mitt our trading department and dey konfirm dat in der agreement to import rice from ur kompani if it is agreed to send rice mitt mice shidt mixt but dey are not finding any mention of Mice shcidt must to be mixt mitt der rice

It takes too much time to remuf der mice durds out from der rice. Vee order kleen rice and you schipt mice schidt mixt mitt der rice.

Vee like you to schip us der rice in vun sack und der mice schidt in annoder sak, and den vee mix to soot der kustomer.

Pleaz to understand ve haf had to clean der rice to remuf dor mice schidt for vich we have to employ German cleaning mans and German cleaning vomans vich pepuls be very costly. Vee now have all der rice in vun grup of bags and all der mice schidt in odder grup of bags

Pleaz wride, if ve shud schip back der mice schidt und keep der rice vich we have asked und paid fur or to keep der mice schidt vich we hav not asked fur und schip back der rice vich ve haf paid fur, or schip back der hold schitten verks.

Pleaz note dat we have sent der mice schidt vich was mixt mitt der rice to Der Labor für Güteprüfung in Hamburg who Konfirm dat dis mice schidt in der rice contains kurry vich meanz dat dis mice schidt is from Pakistan Mices and not German Mices.

Ve vant to do ridt in dis matter budt ve do no like dis mice schidt business.

Hans Grubber Von Schlong-Zwei Nuttenberg
Getreide und Reis Handel Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung
Winterstraße
22765 Hamburg

Copy : ------- und -------- Gmbh, Hamburg

Copy : ------- Grain Brokers Ltd., London

Copy : ----Association, London

[Austin]

Pakistan Developed Tactical Nuclear Weapons to 'Deter' India, Says Top Official

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/tactical ... eststories

Washington: Justifying its growing arsenal of nuclear weapons, Pakistan yesterday said it has developed them to "deter" a possible attack from India after it built infrastructure near border areas to help launch quick response in case of war.

"Our nuclear programme is one dimensional: stopping Indian aggression before it happens. It is not for starting a war. It is for deterrence," Pakistan Foreign Secretary, Aizaz Chaudhry told a news briefing ahead of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif's US trip to hold talks with President Barack Obama.

He explained that Pakistan's "low-yield, tactical nuclear weapons" would make it difficult for India to launch a war against Pakistan while remaining under the nuclear threshold.

Mr Chaudhry said that India had created a gap in the capabilities of the two countries through its cold-start doctrine that was developed for use in a possible war with Pakistan that involves various branches of India's military conducting offensive operations.

It was the first concrete explanation from a senior Pakistani official on how Islamabad plans to deal with New Delhi's so-called cold-start doctrine, now renamed the proactive strategy, The Dawn reported.

"It also is a rare explanation of Pakistan's decision to make tactical nuclear weapons to deal with the possible threat of an Indian aggression," it said.

By drastically reducing the time required to launch an aggression against Pakistan, India had "created a space for war", Chaudhry said.

"Our argument is, when you are a nuclear power, you do not create spaces for war. War is no more an option," the foreign secretary said. "We have plugged the gap India had created. We have the right to do so."

Earlier, India has termed as a baseless "story", the charge by Pakistan about construction of a wall along the International Border in Jammu and Kashmir.

The Inspector General of BSF, Rakesh Sharma had said, "This is a story created by Pakistan. There is no wall being constructed on the IB in Jammu and Kashmir... "It is a confusion that is being created by the Pakistani side... "

Mr Sharma said that it was not possible to construct a wall along the International Border (IB) keeping in view the topography of the area where the IB is situated. Only fortification of the already existing fence takes place from time to time.

[member_22539]

^Such sweet fantasies. "War is no more an option" indeed. Let me see them risk their kids in the cities and their vaunted HQ in pindi for some border areas.

Are they really stupid enough to think that nukes mean that they get away with anything?

[Karan M]

Good. Multiprong strike into TSP and they nuke their own place silly. Pakistan, the national personification of a suicide bomber.

[nirav]

^

How difficult would it be to gather a force of mujahideen/TTP by India, say about 10,000ish.

Can then send them to Pakistan under Operation Grand pe laat.
Pakis free to tactically nuke them.

[member_29172]

The old fart is farting away because he knows he can't do anythinng else. Ending the nuisance called pukistn and getting our land back should be our main priority, not taking these schiziophrenic ramblings as a serious threat from pukeland. These high and mighty grass eating cartoons don't even know how many pigs live in their own country, probably don't know how many nukes they have and how many of them actually work.

The only credible response to these try hard statements is a big and hearty laugh, because that's what it is, a joke.

[Sid]

I think they are crazy enough to think about a nuclear threshold? for us its binary, either we use it all or none. But crazies on the other side of border does not seem to think so. They think a tactical nuke strike on our formation wont be crossing that limit.

What's more crazy is that these tactical nukes will be in command at field formation (if I am not wrong), not under direct control of their strategic forces.

That's nuke terror 101, and we should shun ties with US/Europe if they continue to pamper Porkies with arms and a possible nuke deal. All this pappi/jhappi with with US is not worth risking national survival. Join the Russia/China block and the whole world will take notice.

[Karan M]

A distributed IA armor force - what exactly will tactical nuclear strikes achieve if political leadership keeps its strength and proceeds even so? They will not stop a dedicated military offensive.

[sudeepj]

If Paks are going to nuke Indian armor on their own territory so as to not get hit back, the safest place for an Indian strike corps is Anarkali bazaar in Lahore and Clifton in Karachi for the amphibs.

[Sid]

Their plan is to liquidate an advancing strike core, which may require one or more tactical nuke strike. Such a huge loss cannot be filled in a short time.

To compensate for this
1> are we willing to double our conventional forces (to retain second conventional strike)
or
2> launch decapitating strike throughout their land
or
3> launch similar strike to return the favor?

First option is cost prohibitive and other two will require GOI with solid backbone to stand up to international scrutiny (and maybe years of crippling sanctions/intervention).

[Sid]

If Paks are going to nuke Indian armor on their own territory so as to not get hit back, the safest place for an Indian strike corps is Anarkali bazaar in Lahore and Clifton in Karachi for the amphibs.

I think we are miscalculating the psyche and obsession of our neighbors. Last few generations have been bought up with such a sense of hatred and inferiority complex that its almost impossible to comprehend.

Plus due to years of false reporting/brain-washing in their media has made them border line schizophreniac. Hence when the time will come to choose between their land and inflicting heavy loses to us, they will choose later.

When you read war accounts of battles between PA/IA, there used to be mutual respect at professional level. But now every last thread of that old PA is gone. They are hardcore fundamentalist on taxpayer's payroll.

[Prem]

Their plan is to liquidate an advancing strike core, which may require one or more tactical nuke strike. Such a huge loss cannot be filled in a short time. To compensate for this
1> are we willing to double our conventional forces (to retain second conventional strike) First option is cost prohibitive and other two will require GOI with solid backbone to stand up to international scrutiny (and maybe years of crippling sanctions/intervention).

This option will be very attractive as economy grow. Plus it will be handy to put boost on the ground in various recoveRed territories.My old dream and adage of having one 4 Million man army my come true.

[nirav]

Their plan is to liquidate an advancing strike core, which may require one or more tactical nuke strike. Such a huge loss cannot be filled in a short time.

To compensate for this
1> are we willing to double our conventional forces (to retain second conventional strike)
or
2> launch decapitating strike throughout their land
or
3> launch similar strike to return the favor?

First option is cost prohibitive and other two will require GOI with solid backbone to stand up to international scrutiny (and maybe years of crippling sanctions/intervention).

India's nuclear strike paper had clearly stated that in case of any nuclear attack in India or its armed forces we will retaliate in a maa cho deb fashion.

Pakis can then discuss with their 72, but we only used "tactical nukes", those merciless yindoos hydrogen bummed our quam.

[sudeepj]

If Paks are going to nuke Indian armor on their own territory so as to not get hit back, the safest place for an Indian strike corps is Anarkali bazaar in Lahore and Clifton in Karachi for the amphibs.

I think we are miscalculating the psyche and obsession of our neighbors. Last few generations have been bought up with such a sense of hatred and inferiority complex that its almost impossible to comprehend.

Pak generals are not suicide bombers yet. They are not in the business of conflict, they are in the business of 'conflict mediation'. In the first iteration, they collected aid to prevent Soviet Union getting a warm water port not dominated by NATO. (Crimea doesnt really count because Turkey controls the exit). In the second iteration after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, they took part in the 'Afghan jihard' and collected aid, nuclear weapons and delivery mechanisms. In the third iteration post 9/11, they stoked conflict from one end and collected aid to 'help' end the conflict from the other.

Several tens of billions of dollars for an economy thats a tenth the size of India is a huge amount. Even if Paks had their affairs in order and were exporting useful stuff, it would be difficult to obtain that kind of money. Now that this game is coming to an end with the US finally beginning to see through this game, the conflict is sought to be shifted again to a nuclear showdown with India. Stoke the conflict through suicide terror attacks and hope to collect a hafta when the inevitable Indian reaction takes place. They will back down, but after getting some aid in exchange.

Plus due to years of false reporting/brain-washing in their media has made them border line schizophreniac. Hence when the time will come to choose between their land and inflicting heavy loses to us, they will choose later.

Nonsense, they are just as rational as the rest of us. They backed down in Kargil, they backed down post Op Parakram. Ill go to the extent of saying they are hyper rational. The Pak Awam may suffer, but the elite get the aid, the rhodes scholarships, are treated as serious important people where ever they go and the adulation of the Awam for cocking an Islamist snoot at the hated Kuffar.

When you read war accounts of battles between PA/IA, there used to be mutual respect at professional level. But now every last thread of that old PA is gone. They are hardcore fundamentalist on taxpayer's payroll.

Does it benefit the Pakistani establishment for the world to think that their Generals are crazy fundos? You bet it does. Because then Musharaff and other elite like him can go and make the case that they are the last person standing between the nukes and the crazies. They may even promote one or two fundos here and there, but no fundo will get his hands on any Pak nuke, because the day he does, the first place he is going to march to is not going to be the LoC, it will be Isloo.

[Karan M]

Their plan is to liquidate an advancing strike core, which may require one or more tactical nuke strike. Such a huge loss cannot be filled in a short time.

Sid, look at how many troops and tanks and advancing strike corp will have and how many nukes it will require. A single tac nuke can at best take out a handful of tanks for instance. Pakistan will have to nuke itself to bits to stop a full strike corp which is advancing in a proper distributed fashion.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis/ ... Yo3AN.html

Note the limited amounts lost in both the Indian and Pakistani strikes.

The main devastation nuclear weapons can cause are on urban areas with their high population density and very limited mobility. Hence the political leadership's concern if it extends to a "city" fight. That is the true value of a TNW strike, in the messaging that escalation can occur and hoping that will either deter India OR force the international community to intervene.

[Prem]

Since paki have declared their intention , they can be nuked without waiting for advancing forces reaching deep in Pakistan. Paki policy provide excellent excuse for first strike. Cold Start Doctrine moves a notch up and become Nuke Start Doctrine.

[krishna_krishna]

Their plan is to liquidate an advancing strike core, which may require one or more tactical nuke strike. Such a huge loss cannot be filled in a short time.

OR they can attack the launching pads of our IBG's close to border with civilian population and or just the launching troops themselves in a preemptive way before they are launched.

To add to that they are relying on 3.5 fathers (confident) to intervene and save them from juggernaut that will comeor their (flawed) assessment like in kargil days is hindu banya's don't have guts to pull the trigger

[Austin]

US to sell eight F-16s to Pakistan: Report

WASHINGTON: The United States is preparing to sell eight new F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan, a media report has said ahead of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif's meeting with President Barack Obama today.

According to a report in New York Times, the Congress was notified just days ago about the proposed sale of the additional fighters although it is not clear if the White House plans to announce the sale of the aircraft during Sharif's trip.

Sharif landed in the US on October 20 on a state visit, and is schediuled to meet Obama today.

The new fighter jets would add to Pakistan's sizable force of fighter jets which includes more than 70 F-16s and dozens of French and Chinese attack aircraft, it said.

Earlier in April, the US State Department approved Pakistan's request for a billion dollars worth of military hardware and equipment, identifying Pakistan as a country of of vital importance for US foreign policy and national interests.

Dawn newspaper reported that in May this year, the US handed over to Pakistan over 14 combat aircraft, 59 military trainer jets and 374 armoured personnel carriers.

[Sid]

OR they can attack the launching pads of our IBG's close to border with civilian population and or just the launching troops themselves in a preemptive way before they are launched.

To add to that they are relying on 3.5 fathers (confident) to intervene and save them from juggernaut that will comeor their (flawed) assessment like in kargil days is hindu banya's don't have guts to pull the trigger

And that is the whole point, they always miscalculate. From 65 till 99 that's what they did each and every time.

Its a calculated miscalculation, but they always try. Hence they will try to nuke as well.

[Sid]

Sid, look at how many troops and tanks and advancing strike corp will have and how many nukes it will require. A single tac nuke can at best take out a handful of tanks for instance. Pakistan will have to nuke itself to bits to stop a full strike corp which is advancing in a proper distributed fashion.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis/ ... Yo3AN.html

Note the limited amounts lost in both the Indian and Pakistani strikes.

The main devastation nuclear weapons can cause are on urban areas with their high population density and very limited mobility. Hence the political leadership's concern if it extends to a "city" fight. That is the true value of a TNW strike, in the messaging that escalation can occur and hoping that will either deter India OR force the international community to intervene.

I think the main damage is psychological then physical. And in an event of war (with all misinformation floating around) who can present a clear picture?

A salvo launch from nuke armed Naser can do a considerable damage. And a nuke strike on command will cripple the whole advance.

Again, that does not mean we do nothing.

[Sid]

Pak generals are not suicide bombers yet. They are not in the business of conflict, they are in the business of 'conflict mediation'. In the first iteration, they collected aid to prevent Soviet Union getting a warm water port not dominated by NATO. (Crimea doesnt really count because Turkey controls the exit). In the second iteration after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, they took part in the 'Afghan jihard' and collected aid, nuclear weapons and delivery mechanisms. In the third iteration post 9/11, they stoked conflict from one end and collected aid to 'help' end the conflict from the other.

Several tens of billions of dollars for an economy thats a tenth the size of India is a huge amount. Even if Paks had their affairs in order and were exporting useful stuff, it would be difficult to obtain that kind of money. Now that this game is coming to an end with the US finally beginning to see through this game, the conflict is sought to be shifted again to a nuclear showdown with India. Stoke the conflict through suicide terror attacks and hope to collect a hafta when the inevitable Indian reaction takes place. They will back down, but after getting some aid in exchange.

Nonsense, they are just as rational as the rest of us. They backed down in Kargil, they backed down post Op Parakram. Ill go to the extent of saying they are hyper rational. The Pak Awam may suffer, but the elite get the aid, the rhodes scholarships, are treated as serious important people where ever they go and the adulation of the Awam for cocking an Islamist snoot at the hated Kuffar.

Does it benefit the Pakistani establishment for the world to think that their Generals are crazy fundos? You bet it does. Because then Musharaff and other elite like him can go and make the case that they are the last person standing between the nukes and the crazies. They may even promote one or two fundos here and there, but no fundo will get his hands on any Pak nuke, because the day he does, the first place he is going to march to is not going to be the LoC, it will be Isloo.

They are rational crazies, that we must agree on.

And with all due respect, they never backed down from Kargil or anything because they were rational. If they were so rational and understanding they would not have started in the first place.

[member_22539]

^In the end, if they use nukes, we will use ALL our nukes reserved for them. If we have to suffer more in the process than with a cowardly response, then so be it. But that will be the end of our porki problem. This is our fate and we should be resigned to it. There must be no second-guessing or hesitation. Even if some jihadi is able to pull it off instead of a so called "rational" porki general, it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference. This path leads to only one end, some damage to India and the end of porkistan. This must be burned into the mind of everyone, porki and Indian.

[sudeepj]

...Nonsense, they are just as rational as the rest of us. They backed down in Kargil, they backed down post Op Parakram. Ill go to the extent of saying they are hyper rational. The Pak Awam may suffer, but the elite get the aid, the rhodes scholarships, are treated as serious important people where ever they go and the adulation of the Awam for cocking an Islamist snoot at the hated Kuffar.

Does it benefit the Pakistani establishment for the world to think that their Generals are crazy fundos? You bet it does. Because then Musharaff and other elite like him can go and make the case that they are the last person standing between the nukes and the crazies. They may even promote one or two fundos here and there, but no fundo will get his hands on any Pak nuke, because the day he does, the first place he is going to march to is not going to be the LoC, it will be Isloo.

They are rational crazies, that we must agree on.

And with all due respect, they never backed down from Kargil or anything because they were rational. If they were so rational and understanding they would not have started in the first place.

Pak generals had two opportunities to show how martyrdom oriented they were in the past 2 decades. Once in Kargil and the second time in Parakram. Both the times, they followed the rational path of deescalation. Why initiate conflict in the first place you ask? Because:

(1) They arrived at a conclusion using rational methods that India would not thulp them. When they realized that India was ready to thulp them to a pulp, they backed down. Similarly, if India makes it clear that the response to tactical nukes will be counter value (or even counter force but completely disproportionate) and appears prepared to go down that route, they will back down.

(2) It was a heads I win, tails you lose proposition for them. Even if India forced them back in Kargil, they would just go ahead a do a coup and becomes heads of state. If India forced them to take action against terrorists, they would get aid from America to 'help in counter terror'...

Given (1) and (2), its a completely rational act to initiate conflict with India. If I win, Ill be Salauddin (greatest Islamic conqueror), if I lose, allauddin (Ill either do a coup or get aid to help me climb down the escalatory ladder).

The last thing to note is, for all the talk about tactical nukes, these are not going to be handed out to core commanders because the minute they get it, they become as powerful as the Army chief. They do not have a cohesive ideology that will permit different units to get their hands on these nukes.

Therefore, a 'cold start' that results in Indians getting to population centers or other high value point locations (such as dams) before PakMil get a time to react is crucial. Being bogged down in an battle of attrition is also not too bad. Who will nuke you if they are able to resist you conventionally? But if you are caught in the open trying to flank, you might be in trouble.

[Karan M]

I think the main damage is psychological then physical. And in an event of war (with all misinformation floating around) who can present a clear picture?

The IA can definitely present a clear picture. However, its upto the political leadership to persist. So what this means is before the war, game out possibilities and follow those with conviction.

A salvo launch from nuke armed Naser can do a considerable damage. And a nuke strike on command will cripple the whole advance.

Again, lets look at the facts and not engage in over the top compares. What is considerable damage viz a strike corps. Can a battery of NASRs wipe out an entire brigade? Difficult. Will even that stop an Indian attack in depth? Nope.
What will that entail in counter response? Will India sit and do nothing? What will be the damage to Pak land itself? Is Indian C3I so weak that its command can be wiped out by one strike and the IA would not have gamed it?

Again, that does not mean we do nothing.

Point is tac nukes are signalling escalation. They cannot be Indian attack stopping weapons even if Pakistan bombs itself out of existence. Unfortunately for Pakistan.

[Austin]

Saudi, Pakistani special forces conduct joint training in Punjab province
Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

Special forces from the Saudi Arabian and Pakistani armies began a two-week training exercise known as 'Al-Shihab-1' in Pakistan's Punjab province on 19 October.

An announcement from Pakistan's inter-services public relations office said the exercise aims at "affording an opportunity to explore new avenues of co-operation to fight terrorism and enhance skills".

Analysts and Western officials noted that the exercise comes as Saudi Arabia remains committed to an ongoing military campaign in Yemen. "The Pakistan Army has had years of combat experience against the Taliban [in a rugged region alongside the border with Afghanistan] and that's where the Saudis can learn from our experiences," a senior Pakistani government official told IHS Jane's .

[Austin]

Does any one has full article from Janes ?

US prepares to sell eight newbuild F-16s to Pakistan
Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
21 October 2015
http://www.janes.com/article/55455/us-p ... o-pakistan

The Obama administration is preparing to sell eight new Lockheed Martin F-16 fighters to Pakistan in recognition of the country's push against Taliban militants, a senior Pakistani government official told IHS Jane's on 22 October, hours before Pakistani prime minister Nawaz Sharif was due to meet with US president Barack Obama in Washington, DC.

In 2006 Pakistan signed a contract with the United States to purchase 12 new F-16C and six new F-16D Block 50/52 fighters, which were delivered by 2012. Other F-16s deliveries to Pakistan since the 9/11 terrorist attacks in 2001 have been refurbished older platforms.

"These new aircraft will be more advanced than the last batch of F-16s [the contract for which was signed in 2006]," said the Pakistani government official.


To read the full article, Client Login
(124 of 380 words)

[Austin]

India our foremost nemesis: Pakistani daily

[Karan M]

LOL!! Where are the Khan apologists who were loudly claiming there would be no more donations to TSP?

[Karan M]

India our foremost nemesis: Pakistani daily

Nemesis did jadu-tona and scuppered TSPs chances. All they get are some F-16 baksheesh from Khan to all-lying all -lie.
Pakistan may have killed nuclear deal with US by threatening India

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 500795.cms