Indian Education System

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 27 Sep 2015 23:15

^^^
No sir. I don't think anyone with 8 years of school is ready to make a life choice as profound as that. And how would you sell it to the students and parents. I have to dig it up, but there was report on six sigma quality that showed how each year of schooling reduces the defect rate. Some one with your suggested level of schooling maybe able to make passable welds, but world level quality would be a challenge...

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 27 Sep 2015 23:21

Is water Ph 0?

If first class students are unable to answer it is a very serious issue. May be we need to have teach the teacher (T^3) courses so that the teachers themselves are motivated to teach not do it as some kind of "vetti chakiri" without applying their mind. Also they need to be enthused about the subject they are teaching. If they don't nobody can help.

By II year Intermediate (~12th grade) AP board we had pretty decent amount of Physics and Chemistry and Math under our belt though it was not good enough for clearing JEE. The problem was that while the text books were reasonable they would have needed really good teachers to have done the job. I did go to cow shed schools all my life. Facilities are never the obstacle till 10th grade - lack of large number of motivated teachers who love their job is.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 27 Sep 2015 23:24

Grade inflation in high schools is an universal phenomenon including the US. That said opportunities in India are so few that of some schools don't do it, they get penalized.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 27 Sep 2015 23:29

Theo_Fidel wrote:I think you would have trouble getting people and companies to sign on. Years of study is necessary to mature the individual. Certainly no 8 year student is competent to be placed in any position of responsibility. And yes even installing a weld on a Hyundai Inova is a position of responsibility....

Absolutely correct. Moreover it is criminal to put a 13+2 old to bring her into a factory where safety has to be followed to the dot. Otherwise they are not only a danger to themselves but to their co-workers to the extent that a few people might lose life or limb.

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 27 Sep 2015 23:34

A std 8 student is 14 years old. After 2 years of vocational training he becomes 16 years. Further 2 years of apprenticeship makes him 18. 18 year old can start as trainee.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 27 Sep 2015 23:34

Though the recent requirement of 70% (?) minimum at the Higher Secondary level to sit for JEE Mains might even be leading to marks inflation.

Such inflation was there even in ol dtimes. KL had 60 and 90 total marks graded for PDC I and II yr exams respectively. The question papers would have a total 90 and 120 marks worth of questions...bonus questions...the better students would attempt all of it to guarantee a centum in math. Even then not everyone got a 100%, but there were many. As I recall everyone with a 100% landed up in some engg college worth a name from my class or went to a science stream. So if you did not get 100% then you were considered a dud in math.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 27 Sep 2015 23:45

VKumar wrote:Do you think such a trained welder could start as a trainee welder somewhere?

I want to expand on this a little bit to see the problem a bit clearer.

Please keep in mind that I am a certified and licensed welder in the USA with an ungraded license to to do Aluminum(Sic) Welding that I received last year. I don't belong to my local so technically I do not do any commercial welding.

There is welding and then there is welding. It typically takes somewhere between 2-3 years of study to become a basic licensed welder in USA. Provided you have all the pre-qualifying courses. And the sit for and pass the written exam and the practical part where a licensed AWS inspector certifies you. Even after this all welds in public domain must be placed under the direct supervision of an AWS certified inspector. These about 200 different types of weld that can be executed. depending on technology, substrate, ambient environment, etc. This not including highly technical welds like under water welding, or explosive environment welding or neutral gas environment welding...

Some types of welding off the top of my head...
- Metal Arc Welding (classic)
- Shielded metal arc
- Flux core arc
- Gas Metal Arc
- Oxyfuel welding
- Carbon arc
- Plasma torch
etc

Each type of welding takes many years to master. So you can do 1000's of linear feet of welds with zero defect and complete safety. Not to forget 100% safety, which is an entire sub-domain. Personally I'm not anywhere near this level of skill. True welders are extremely high skilled people on the order of top level engineers.

Though I suspect you are not talking about this level of welding.
Any person can run a basic MIG arc welder. Why you could do it in your home. but no quality conscious factory would take on such a welder. Maybe in the past it was done, but these days it would not happen.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 28 Sep 2015 00:06

prasannasimha wrote:The question is how does a person who cannot construct a sentence like "My name is XYZ" " score a first class/distinction in their 12th standard exam( I am very serious and not joking- On their first day in my class - I usually ask them to introduce themselves to get an idea about what "putty" I am getting to "mold") . I used to deal with only post doctoral level students and then when I had to start teaching undergraduate level courses - it was a culture shock and a big dose of reality regarding the quality of our educational system at the school level. Imagine - these students have to learn about things like alpha and pH stat management during deep hypothermia and circulatory arrest without knowing what pH is-I usually ask them what is the pH of water and 9/10 do not know the correct answer and to be honest many of my MCh students make a mistake with this question and some can parrot the definition without knowing what they are telling. I actually have to teach them the intricacies of variation of pH with temperature and its effects on the body ! You can understand a teachers plight in this situation. To their credit some students have managed to really put in effort and I am proud to say from failing have become distinction/rank holders in the final year and have moved on to have successful careers but this angst and pain in the starting could have been avoided.Others have simply buckled and given up which is sad. We can take a horse to the water but cannot make it drink.We can try to excite students but they must have an intrinsic will to learn too. It has become fashionable now to blame Teacher's for everything.

Indeed...this is a calamity...people enter cardiology or CT surgery , without understanding a damn thing about CVS physiology as they don't understand action potential...because , they never understood ionic equilibrium or elementary electrostatics...No wonder many people find ECGs so hard...Acid/base balance is another topic Indian docs find extremely difficult...

It is sad that MCI permits people without even +2 level math to enter med school...for most , med school is a ride to dumbing down...if you look at the papers of AIIMS/All India PG entrance , they are nonsensical rote memorization... compare it with USMLEs and we know the difference...

sadly people are opposing a USMLE style exit exam...

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 28 Sep 2015 03:54

I've been hearing some really bad things about Kerala school system recently.
It seems the trend is to give 100% marks to everyone irrespective of what their performance is.

Then it is very painful for the students after that when they go to other places and do not get 100%..

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 28 Sep 2015 04:56

This is CBSE numbers from 2 years back, so nothing unsual. What is the equivalent state board numbers. The whole article has some serious allegations on cut-off being gamed to get students in to TN colleges. Some kind of business competition at the cost of quality is going on.

Kerala put up a creditable performance in the CBSE class XII results published on Monday by fetching commendable scores for the maximum number of students in the Chennai region which also covers Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu, Pondicherry, Lakshadweep, Daman and Diu and Andaman and Nicobar Islands.

A total of 18,902 boys and 17,931 girls appeared for the class XII final CBSE exam from Kerala. Of this 17,070 boys and 17,148 girls cleared the board. While the pass percentage of boys stood at 90.31, it was 95.63 for girls. The overall pass percentage was 92.90. Though Goa had the highest overall percentage at 98.87, it fielded only 169 boys and 185 girls for the exam.

Kerala was followed by Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh in presenting the maximum number of students for the exam. While Tamil Nadu had 5,430 boys and 3,808 girls and secured an overall pass percentage of 96.40, Andhra Pradesh had 4,510 boys and 2,835 girls, securing an overall success of 92.25 per cent.

Among the regions, Chennai once again put up the best performance with a pass percentage of 91.83. The national pass percentage was 82.10 per cent, up from last year's 80.19 per cent. According to Indira Rajan, general secretary of the Kerala CBSE Managements Association, this was the first time that students who had undergone the continuous and comprehensive evaluation (CCE) scheme of the CBSE had appeared for the board exam which revealed the marks rather than grades in CCE.

http://archives.deccanchronicle.com/130 ... ion-topper

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 28 Sep 2015 05:26

Mystery solved.
http://www.thehindu.com/features/educat ... 515482.ece

Referring to the shortcomings in the evaluation pattern in the entrance examination, Prof. Mahadevan said that a student who got 10 marks out of 480 for Physics and Chemistry put together (paper I) and 10 marks out of 480 for Mathematics (paper II) found a place on the rank list.

“If a student correctly answers three questions out of 120 each in Papers I and II of the entrance examination, his name is included on the rank list. He is likely to get a government seat in one of the engineering colleges in Kerala and is eligible to get a bank loan for studies. This year, out of 1,06,071 candidates who appeared for the engineering entrance examination, only 77,510 have qualified (obtained 10 or more out of 480 marks each for Paper I and Paper II). This means that 28,516 candidates were disqualified (they failed to score at least 10 out of 480 in Paper I and Paper II). This has been happening for the past 10 years,” he said.

On the reasons for the poor pass percentage in engineering colleges, K.P.P. Pillai, former Executive Secretary of the Indian Society for Technical Education, said that there was a time when students who failed to clear the papers after three consecutive attempts were not allowed to pursue the B.Tech. programme further.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 28 Sep 2015 06:39

gakakkad wrote:
prasannasimha wrote:The question is how does a person who cannot construct a sentence like "My name is XYZ" " score a first class/distinction in their 12th standard exam( I am very serious and not joking- On their first day in my class - I usually ask them to introduce themselves to get an idea about what "putty" I am getting to "mold") . I used to deal with only post doctoral level students and then when I had to start teaching undergraduate level courses - it was a culture shock and a big dose of reality regarding the quality of our educational system at the school level. Imagine - these students have to learn about things like alpha and pH stat management during deep hypothermia and circulatory arrest without knowing what pH is-I usually ask them what is the pH of water and 9/10 do not know the correct answer and to be honest many of my MCh students make a mistake with this question and some can parrot the definition without knowing what they are telling. I actually have to teach them the intricacies of variation of pH with temperature and its effects on the body ! You can understand a teachers plight in this situation. To their credit some students have managed to really put in effort and I am proud to say from failing have become distinction/rank holders in the final year and have moved on to have successful careers but this angst and pain in the starting could have been avoided.Others have simply buckled and given up which is sad. We can take a horse to the water but cannot make it drink.We can try to excite students but they must have an intrinsic will to learn too. It has become fashionable now to blame Teacher's for everything.

Indeed...this is a calamity...people enter cardiology or CT surgery , without understanding a damn thing about CVS physiology as they don't understand action potential...because , they never understood ionic equilibrium or elementary electrostatics...No wonder many people find ECGs so hard...Acid/base balance is another topic Indian docs find extremely difficult...

It is sad that MCI permits people without even +2 level math to enter med school...for most , med school is a ride to dumbing down...if you look at the papers of AIIMS/All India PG entrance , they are nonsensical rote memorization... compare it with USMLEs and we know the difference...

sadly people are opposing a USMLE style exit exam...

This is not for the MBBS level but paramedical level(Though some MCh trainess too have floundered !- the number is increasing of late now a days). These are students who are attending paramedical courses. Unfortunately some paramedical courses are such that the technicians can directly kill patients due to errors and it is dangerous to have badly trained people doing such jobs.

Incidentally there is a move for a common exit certifying exam after MBBS like the USMLE

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 28 Sep 2015 06:41

You will be surprised at the number of children who say that the pH of water is zero or 1 after their 12th standard exam !!

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 28 Sep 2015 08:47

Bade wrote:This is CBSE numbers from 2 years back, so nothing unsual. What is the equivalent state board numbers. The whole article has some serious allegations on cut-off being gamed to get students in to TN colleges. Some kind of business competition at the cost of quality is going on.
Kerala put up a creditable performance in the CBSE class XII results published on Monday by fetching commendable scores for the maximum number of students in the Chennai region which also covers Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu, Pondicherry, Lakshadweep, Daman and Diu and Andaman and Nicobar Islands.

A total of 18,902 boys and 17,931 girls appeared for the class XII final CBSE exam from Kerala. Of this 17,070 boys and 17,148 girls cleared the board. While the pass percentage of boys stood at 90.31, it was 95.63 for girls. The overall pass percentage was 92.90. Though Goa had the highest overall percentage at 98.87, it fielded only 169 boys and 185 girls for the exam.

Kerala was followed by Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh in presenting the maximum number of students for the exam. While Tamil Nadu had 5,430 boys and 3,808 girls and secured an overall pass percentage of 96.40, Andhra Pradesh had 4,510 boys and 2,835 girls, securing an overall success of 92.25 per cent.

Among the regions, Chennai once again put up the best performance with a pass percentage of 91.83. The national pass percentage was 82.10 per cent, up from last year's 80.19 per cent. According to Indira Rajan, general secretary of the Kerala CBSE Managements Association, this was the first time that students who had undergone the continuous and comprehensive evaluation (CCE) scheme of the CBSE had appeared for the board exam which revealed the marks rather than grades in CCE.
http://archives.deccanchronicle.com/130 ... ion-topper

Bade Sir, one explanation for this is that Kerala by far has the highest number of CBSE schools in the peninsula.

Vadivel · Post by **Vadivel** » 28 Sep 2015 09:46

deejay wrote:
Bade wrote:This is CBSE numbers from 2 years back, so nothing unsual. What is the equivalent state board numbers. The whole article has some serious allegations on cut-off being gamed to get students in to TN colleges. Some kind of business competition at the cost of quality is going on.

http://archives.deccanchronicle.com/130 ... ion-topper
Bade Sir, one explanation for this is that Kerala by far has the highest number of CBSE schools in the peninsula.

Also in the TN, CBSE is only pursued till 10th, 11th/12th they move to matriculate because of TN engineering and medical cut offs. Very few pursue 11th/12th CBSE in TN.

negi · Post by **negi** » 28 Sep 2015 14:04

The rot came in early 2000s when the education ministry floated a no mark but A/B/C grading system for primary school all in the name of reducing pressure on kids. This period also witnessed commercialization of education which made it a very lucrative sector , KA lead by example in this area (they have maximum Engg seats per state in India mostly under colleges owned by politicians) . The school principals started getting graded by passing percentage of students i.e. focus was on minimizing failure rates for PPTgiri , principals would have weak performers not sit for exams rather than failing . Parents too are equally to be blamed they go by which school did state topper passed out from and other such metrics.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 28 Sep 2015 17:57

prasannasimha wrote:

This is not for the MBBS level but paramedical level(Though some MCh trainess too have floundered !- the number is increasing of late now a days). These are students who are attending paramedical courses. Unfortunately some paramedical courses are such that the technicians can directly kill patients due to errors and it is dangerous to have badly trained people doing such jobs.

Incidentally there is a move for a common exit certifying exam after MBBS like the USMLE

indeed ... an incompetent perfusionist can be a CT surgeons worst nightmare ..incompetent paramedical staff have created a lot of problems for resident docs as they are expected to do the work of paramedics instead...

problem is that we can only get those type of people because the pay is quite bad... I remember the role of the biomedical engineer in my med school during mbbs days was to repair projectors..

before lecture if the projector was not working we were asked to call the chap!

w.r.t exit exam , I doubt it ll go through even though the minister wants it... facebook wall of my colleagues seem to be opposing the move...they argue that we have too many exams to begin with...but I think most of the exams can easily be done away with as they are not serious anyway...and exit exam scores can be used for PG admissions... government can open at least 20,000-30,000 family medicine/family practice residency spots for those who go for general practice ...they can handle a lot of outpatient load of gov't colleges , and also sharpen their skills..
I mean if we look at a general surgery OPD or an Internal medicine OPD , in any med school we find that a lot of patients should not have reached the specialist OPD itself...like 90% of the patients in surgery OPD are UTI/gastritis/vague abdominal pains etc ...For internal medicine OPD most of the patient are headache/URTI/non specific chest pain etc...it is not that a resident should not practice seeing these... but typically these services receive about 300-400 patients / 3-4 hours of OPD...A resident has to see 40-50 patients an hour or less than 2 minutes per patient... typically every chest pain patient receives an EKG/CXR and every abdominal patient receives an ultrasound , which is unnecessary ...and practically every patient of a "particular type" receive the same prescription...
The resident realizes his mistakes much later in his career..

India is the only country (I am not counting our sooth asian neighbours or africa or PRC) where it is possible to practice medicine immediately after med school without any training... even UK/Australia/EU where MBBS is similar to India , they need supervised 3-4 year OPD exposure even fr general practice ..

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 28 Sep 2015 20:12

deejay, I did not get your point. Are you saying the increased number of CBSE schools has created this problem in KL ? Maybe I misunderstood what you said.

rhytha, the cut-off for TN engg admission is lower than KL, not the other way around from that linked article from Deccan Chronicle. There is a general dumbing down going on to fill the seats in both states for business reasons. That is the way I read it. If TN passing rate is higher than KL for BTech courses, despite lower cut-offs I suspect there is even more fraud going on in passing out students who paid their way through...or the other explanation is one state's students are dumber than the ones from next door. Statistically hard to believe that with so many more CBSE schools with some minimum standards imposed.

The lower cut-off for BTech entrance is what is causing it naturally. The natural selection and weeding out is happening post entrance exams now. So nothing wrong with education due to literacy etc...just that not so good students get to register too for professional courses...but are dropping out as they realize they are not fit for the course rigor.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 28 Sep 2015 20:31

Bade wrote:The idea of restricting MBBS admissions to post-BSc makes sense as the student really has time to decide if they are up to the requirements for a medical degree or not.

Any idea how was the earlier selections done to MBBS? My understanding was that it was always through the B.Sc route before the medical entrance examinations started in the early 1980s.

There are rural area English medium schools operating these days, where the kids cannot even speak or write decent English

There was this craze for "English Medium" schools even during the 1980s. But most of them just focused on the wrote-learning aspect, and used English a bit more in their classes. The logic of "You have to speak in English, start thinking in English" was not much in vogue. A true-blue English medium school which focuses on the over-all language skills was very less even in the cities. Here even the "convent schools" could not do much.

prasannasimha wrote:Claiming X % literacy is one thing and reality is another thing.(Often a political gimmick)

This was what I was also trying to mention in the States News & Discussion thread. That 100% literacy by itself is good, but when it comes to political gimmicks, even used to portray political ideologies to be greater is some thing meaningless. The commies in Kerala, I feel have done this. So you have a 100% literate commie posting on Facebook, that 100% literacy made him a communist and also a Modi-hater, you would find another 100% literate Malayali eagerly waiting for the Hapa Express at Ernakulam to take him towards Gujarat (where he runs a tyre retreading business unit).

csaurabh wrote:I've been hearing some really bad things about Kerala school system recently.
It seems the trend is to give 100% marks to everyone irrespective of what their performance is.

To add on. One thing I noticed is that Kerala is now allowing pretty much any one to pass any school examination. Now this is considered to be good, because there used to be suicides when the results were out and certain students failed to qualify. But there is also information leaking on how this kind of "relaxed passing norms" allows the "educational industry" to grow. Kerala may have this unique concept of "aided schools" where appointments of teachers is done by a private establishment, where as his entire salary and pensions are given by the state government. So much so that in certain areas the going rate (!?) for an appointment of a high school teacher (B.Ed qualified) is 20-30 lakhs!! There are people willing to pay up and join, since they are assured of a secured income for the rest of their lives. Now that being the case, there should also be enough students to be seen in the classes. What is an easier way than than allowing all and sundry to pass and reach high school? And at High School/SSLC level have a high percentage level of pass-outs, so that the same "aided school" industry would get a steady inflow of students? If too many students don't land up in classes, the government would have a tough time in explaining why they have to pay so many teachers, and may even have to remove a few of them, or post them to remote areas where there are genuine students but no teachers available. And I must say that many of the "aided schools" and colleges offering higher education also belong to certain minority communities.

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 28 Sep 2015 21:28

Basically the point I wish to make is that if a child is unable to cope with the standard curriculum, and classes 9 & 10 require most attention, coaching, learning some difficult stuff, he/she may have an option to take up a vocational subject FULL TIME with some essential subjects like languages. Such vocational subjects can be tailoring, hospitality related, carpentry and such like. I think this option already exists but only in few schools. I think we should have this more widespread. After they complete 9 & 10 in their vocational subject, they should be sent to work as apprentice in an organisation that can teach them the trade whilst using some basic skills of these students. So, they will finish 4 years of theory + practicals + industrial experience in a course of their choice and they get a diploma after the 2 years industrial experience, perhaps there after an exam too.

This should make them employable right away, at least as trainees.

There are some institutes that offer this vocational training after 10th std. for a 3 year course. So, I am taking the drudgery out of the lives of those students who don't wish to graduate in the traditional courses of science/commerce/arts.

There is a real shortage of skilled manpower, so maybe this could be a solution.

Of course if really high level skills are required, then these could study further, or more educated people can be used.

If you know the fees that electricians/plumbers/carpenters/house painters/masons charge in Mumbai, and how difficult it is to get these persons, you will appreciate that in a few years, these students can be self employed or even running small businesses.

AND if after completing the 10 std in their vocation, they find it unattractive, they have the choice to change to the regular education stream or take up some other vocation. No compulsions.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 28 Sep 2015 21:41

Bade wrote:deejay, I did not get your point. Are you saying the increased number of CBSE schools has created this problem in KL ? Maybe I misunderstood what you said.

Sorry, should have been clear. I was not countering your original argument but a point in the article. The article states:

Kerala put up a creditable performance in the CBSE class XII results published on Monday by fetching commendable scores for the maximum number of students in the Chennai region which also covers Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu, Pondicherry, Lakshadweep, Daman and Diu and Andaman and Nicobar Islands.
...

I was trying to explain this point in the article about higher numbers in Kerala passing out of CBSE.

These statistics do not cover the fact that number of students appearing in CBSE exams are not equal across states and Kerala has a greater proportion of CBSE schools and greater number of students appearing in them.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 28 Sep 2015 21:49

w.r.t MBBS , I would not restrict it to BSc onlee...if it was upto me I would have permitted any 4 year undergrad (to attract engineers) or a 3 year assoicate degree , with 1 year of Physics ,general and organic chemistry , calculus , 6 months of statistics , along with biochemistry/molecular biology , with elementary human biology to appear for medical entrance... I d have reduced duration of MBBS to 4 years...I d have kept the high school pathway open too...Because except US and Canada ,pretty much every country follows a pathway similar to India ...But If someone has to enter after high school he d have to a 2/3 year pure sciences training before beginning studying of medical subjects..this way you don't stretch the duration much...just use the time wisely...(by reducing 2 years of MBBS , as a lot of time is wasted in present day MBBS )..

I d have ensured a residency spot for everyone straight from med school...because in the present system huge amount of time is being wasted in any case...people "take a drop" after class 12th and MBBS and even after MD/MS to "prepare" for entrances...and also after finishing DM/McH people work as SRs to get experience so that they can practice independently ...so even in the present system an India gets nearly as old as an American when he starts to practice..

we can potentially create an excellent medical research environment and attract the best and the brightest...but unfortunately many medical educators oppose reforms tooth and nail....when Ketan Desai was ousted , Shetty et al proposed an exit exam at the end of 2nd year and final year and restructuring MBBS courses...medical teachers threatened a nationwide boycott ..most of the time teachers are incompetent and frustrated lot...and have more experience in politics than teaching...

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 28 Sep 2015 22:00

deejay, that is what I thought too.

thanks for clarifying.

I was trying to see if the quality of CBSE students from KL can be a pointer to the BTech graduation rate anomaly. It could still be, and then it is a serious problem. But I think the problem is elsewhere. The lower performers from both boards (CBSE and state) are filling up these colleges as the cut-offs are way low to accommodate for all seats open in the colleges. That is why I think Sachin's arguments on literacy and political gimmick cannot explain the anomaly.

You could have 30% pass rate for +2 overall and if you still keep the cut-offs low for BTech entrance, then seats will get filled by students from other states who do not make the cut there. It is all about colleges trying to fill seats. So some culling may be required as people who matter in the decision chain are already talking about.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 28 Sep 2015 22:10

Bade wrote:You are quick to point to the dynasty, but what about the capitalists of the day. Tatas and Birlas. Why was not BITS model expanded across the nation ? <SNIP>

Sir, I hope you know this that one CANNOT make money (officially at least) from education? Permission to start a school/college/what have you is given in the name of a Trust? While people do come out with innovative ways to take money out of a trust, it is not a model you can easily replicate. Whatever replication is happening is in K-12 domain (new private schools and genuine international schools) and here again, the whole thing operates in a grey area.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 28 Sep 2015 22:20

Rohitvats, I am no expert in policy matters of government so I am learning slowly the limitations for the private institutions that operate in India. Given the status quo, many a industrial house can still setup Trusts/Foundation I hope to start institutions, even if it is not about making money. The dividends for them is in the availability of a properly trained manpower to make money off later. At least that was the gist of my argument. The state has done its bit, and it is time for benefactors to pool in their wealth to create more with time.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 29 Sep 2015 23:14

SwamyG wrote:Areas: Skill Development, Education, Economy, Jobs etc.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/education ... UovYO.html

The demand for Industrial Training Institutes (ITIs) in the country is scaling unprecedented highs with skill development becoming a buzzword under the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party-led NDA government.
“Several reasons have contributed towards this ITI boom. Besides the governmental push and underscoring skill development as a priority sector, we have implemented a movement from the manual to a simplified online system. It is much easier than ever to start an ITI,” said a top government official familiar with the development.

According to government figures, on an average about eight new ITIs—lead institutes for acquiring and developing vocational skills—are being set up across India every day for the last five months. From April 1 to August 30, 1,133 ITIs have been set up and the corresponding additional increase in seating capacity has been by 1,71,392.

“There is a rush among corporates to set up ITIs as part of their CSR effort. Also, there is an increasing demand for skill acquisition and we are expanding into new geographies and areas where there was no such facility before. Moreover, the number of skills is multiplying by getting subdivided into specialties. For example, a skill like welding has about 12 variants now,” the official added.
The top states with the biggest number of ITI are Uttar Pradesh (2,185), Rajasthan (1,769), Karnataka (1,481), Madhya Pradesh (886), Bihar (873), Maharashtra (863) and Tamil Nadu (722).

The official, however, sounded a note of caution over the mushrooming of these institutes. “With the mushrooming of ITIs, there are quality and regulatory issues too which we are trying to address in an urgent manner. We are trying to devise a ranking system for the ITIs across the country. This system will be up in about a month or so,” the official added. Operated by both the government and the private sector, ITIs are vocational training organisations that provide post-school technical training. Normally, a Class 10 certificate is the minimum eligibility for admission to ITIs.

At present, there are 13,105 ITIs which cater to about 18,65,629 students at any given point of time. While 2,293 are government-run, 10,812 are operated by the private sector.

Interestingly, the demand for ITIs is rising in the face of plummeting demand for engineering courses in the country with a whopping 13.3 lakh seats in engineering colleges—including both government and private institutes and comprising IITs, NITs, and renowned engineering colleges—going vacant in the last three years.

HT had reported that the government is actively considering utilisation of capacities in such engineering institutes by introducing skill development and entrepreneurial courses so that skill development capacity is enhanced with minimum investment and optimal utilisation of resources.

Thanks to SwamyG for that post in achievements thread. As no discussion allowed there,
Cross-posting here for The discussion.

There are some interesting numbers in that article. 13 lakh Engg. seats are not being filled. total ITI capacity is 18 lakhs. Also majority are setup by manufacturing companies. One conclusion we can make is that they need more at lower levels than at Engg. Levels. Too many commanders no soldiers. There is always an optimal ratio of high level folks to design, manage, analyst, plan vs. the people who have to follow instructions and be able to work on the assembly line.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 08 Oct 2015 19:58

Didn'T Modi meet Khan?

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/10/gar ... mythology/

Ever since the days of ancient Egypt, priesthoods of various denominations have had an alliance with the state. They trained the next generation of literate bureaucrats.

The state wanted literate bureaucrats. The priesthood wanted state support. It was a convenient alliance. It still is. In our day, the priests are priests because they are certified by the state to do the training. This is called academic accreditation. The priests are agents of the state.

All of this has rested on a myth: the myth of classroom education. In less than 10 years, the Khan Academy has undermined this myth beyond repair.

According to its website, the Khan Academy now has 26 million registered students. Registered. Not just dropping in to see videos, but actually registering.

The Khan Academy went online in 2006. This means that, in just nine years, it has grown to the largest educational institution in the history of mankind. This growth is accelerating.

One man, with no formal training as a teacher, single-handedly has taken over the education of at least 26 million students.

Think about what this means for the educational establishment. They have claimed for over a century that a teacher must have specialized training in order to become an effective teacher. He must spend years in specialized classes in state-accredited universities in order to be sufficiently competent to teach a roomful of 30 students at a time. But Khan is teaching 26 million students at a time.

My father-in-law R. J. Rushdoony wrote a classic book, The Messianic Character of American Education(1963). It is a history of two dozen of the major figures in the coming of tax-funded education. He went back to the primary sources, as nobody else ever had, to show exactly how the founders of progressive education believed that the public schools would serve as an alternative to the Christian church. They saw it as redemptive institution.

Now, one man, with no financial backing initially, has undermined the entire theology of progressive education.

vivek.rao · Post by **vivek.rao** » 08 Oct 2015 21:45

What happened to New Education policy?

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 13 Oct 2015 08:15

This from UCB Berkeley. Looks like we are copying them really well..

http://alexandercoward.com/BlowingTheWh ... atics.html

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Oct 2015 17:38

http://www.niticentral.com/2015/10/15/i ... 27575.html

how is she going to compensate the 85 crores returned acceptance fees?

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 15 Oct 2015 18:09

^This was a standard con job of Unit's. Good that she put an end to it.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 15 Oct 2015 19:25

Check out this school/college that does not have principle or administration and the students run it themselves.

http://www.ndtv.com/ndtv-at25/classics/ ... ort/304534

They do not ask money from government or NGOs.

They themselves collect fees and use it for books, uniforms and food.
They grow food on the attached land of the school.
The whole year budget was Rs 800. (Eight hundred) in 2008.

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 17 Oct 2015 06:50

The man who brought down IIPM

http://thelogicalindian.com/my-story/st ... nts-lives/

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Oct 2015 02:17

http://www.thehindu.com/webexclusives/w ... epage=true
What has gone wrong with IIT-Madras?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 24 Oct 2015 05:22

There is nothing wrong with IIT here in this case, but something wrong with the social pressures back home and lack of many choices for students who may want to go somewhere else to bloom and be counted in life.

member_29172 · Post by **member_29172** » 24 Oct 2015 05:25

Slaving away in some american company isn't exactly something one would call being "counted". Plus IIT munnas are some of the pampered bunch by job selection committees, parents, society... what pressure are these munnas facing exactly? other than annoying aunties

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 24 Oct 2015 05:31

If you are not from the lower middle class, perhaps you will never know what the pressures are the kids face, even if they want to quit and do something else for a career.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Oct 2015 05:36

I'd still say the coach or guide or the guru responsible for "such pressures" [WAG]. Nothing in life that can't be achievable given the right guidance. We have the talented bunch... right? that is all we need it.

On the pressure for performing against peers is the question, then it is total stupidity to end life. utter nonsense and totally immoral thing to do having such IQs. Just think about Einstein and Planck were to commit it!?!?

social pressures are there in every society.. come on! it can't be life threatening. a person must have great self esteem to even get into prestigious institutions let alone GATE and GRE or even coming out with some new fizzic or tech or perhaps debunking everything thus far studied by mankind.

social pressures! my foot!.. if I can't challenge my society, i can never challenge my thesis as well. [the same empowerment]

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 24 Oct 2015 05:43

The UG, PG and PhD student makeup psychologically are different. The issues each face in any institute for that matter are also not the same, at least on the academic side of things.

In the specific case of UGs, those who feel they are falling behind have nowhere else to go in the Indian context and this can lead to the extreme steps some take. Maybe better professional counseling can help avoid that trap. But beyond that what can a college do. It cannot tailor courses for different needs based on social backgrounds at least for STEM courses. So the author of that article has mixed up several issues in the same basket while pointing at solutions.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Oct 2015 07:11

the eventuality "nowhere else to go (even in the indian context)" from "falling behind"-is an- acceptable failure they should have been guided as such. not all can sharing the same seat or job btw.. how much ever one may qualify one over the other. realities are different.

i however agree with you on the author having mixed up things there.