Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 15 Nov 2015 17:33

Wonder if there is a market for

Je suis Abdul

buttons. Now THAT would be true commitment to secularism and the principles of

Liberte! Egalite! Fraternite! Socialiste!

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 15 Nov 2015 17:43

The uneasy atmosphere in Paris was felt particularly keenly by young Muslims. One group gathered in a Tunisian-run cafe. They were mourning the dead, but also feared that their community would be blamed for Friday’s carnage. “I am worried some French people will think Islam did this, that all Muslims are terrorists,” said Kaber Bouchoucha, 24, who works in a market to support himself through his part-time studies in fine art and design. “Already people in France look at us badly. There already is racism and this will make it worse.”

Sofiane, a 30-year-old ambulance driver, has lived in France since he was eight years old and has a Christian wife (so did Imran Khan..). He feared the attacks would be exploited by racist groups. “There are plenty of French people who don’t discriminate, who see everyone just as humans. But there are some who understand nothing. I am well integrated, with lots of French friends, but I am worried about the impact on Muslims overall.”

As the horror of the attacks emerged, residents of eastern Paris used social media not just to listen to news and express emotion, but to offer help. The hashtag #PorteOuverte (open door) was quickly up and running on Twitter, with residents in the affected areas offering shelter to anyone who had been cleared from the streets and had nowhere to stay. Some just posted their addresses, while others asked Twitter users to contact them.

The ad hoc system seemed to work: “My friends are safe, in a random woman’s home. She’s making them dinner, & preparing beds. Blessed. #PorteOuverte,” posted one relieved woman. Soon the hashtag was trending globally alongside #PriezPourParis, #Solidarite and simply #Paris. Facebook was soon offering some comfort by marking all friends in Paris locations “safe” as they checked into their pages.
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As the day progressed, more rallying signs appeared across the city. Locals put up a homemade poster saying “I am human” at the base of the Marianne statue, the symbol of the French republic, in Place de la République. “We aren’t activists, just Parisians,” they told reporters.

Local authorities announced that all amenities including schools, museums, libraries, gyms, swimming pools and markets would remain closed at the weekend. A service of mourning was being planned at Notre Dame.

The situation was summed up by Mandy Gilman, a New Yorker who has lived in the city for 26 years. “It is morose. But we have a spirit of calm in such times and Parisians will never be defeated by this. I still feel safer in Paris than in New York (and u wonder y Americans poke fun at the French ). This is the world we live in now.”

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 15 Nov 2015 17:47

Twelve years ago, I converted to Islam to marry a Tunisian. It was a purely formal conversion. I remained fundamentally agnostic until 20 months ago, I experienced a spiritual revelation, started to believe in God and to practise my religion of adoption.....
With several French Muslim theologians and intellectuals, we launched the “Khlass le silence!” (“Enough with the silence!”) movement, which called on French Muslims to take the lead in the struggle against the monsters who make a sordid mockery of our religion.
Despite the emotion felt throughout France and the French Muslim community, our appeal fell largely on deaf ears. {Obviously not! his friends reported him to ISIS and they paid attention.. c b lo}
Less than a month later I teamed up with Anwar Ibrahim, the charismatic leader of Malaysia’s opposition; the Palestinian-Austrian theologian Adnan Ibrahim; and a number of other authoritative Muslim figures from all around the world.
Together, we argued that while our natural instinct as Muslims to distance ourselves from the jihadists, saying that the latter have “nothing to do with Islam”, was understandable, it was dubious intellectually and altogether irresponsible to keep our reaction at that.

The last serious attempt at launching a movement of Islamic reform, led by the Egyptian Muhammad Abduh at the turn of the 20th century, ended up in failure and gave way to the creation of the Muslim brotherhood.
To overcome the state of denial described above and the moral decadence that is affecting many of us, nothing less than a new movement of Islamic reform is needed.
Despite some welcome marks of support, our calls continued to go unheeded. Our initiative was attacked or ridiculed by many in the French Muslim community and we were soon branded apostates by Islamic State (my picture appeared along with death threats in their French language propaganda magazine Dar al Islam).

Not a single Muslim leader came to our defence in France when that happened, and barely a thousand of our fellow Muslims manifested their support for our initiative.
{not all Muslims are terrorists or terrorist-sympathizers. About 1000 out of 6.6 million are not - i.e., 0.01%. IOW, only 99.99% are presumable to be terrorists/terrorist sympathizers. Not 2 worry at all! }

On this ignominious day, the time has come for me to repeat with a greater sense of urgency still what my cosignatories and I said earlier this year:

“My dear Muslim brothers and sisters, it is time to make our voices heard: we must rise up massively and tell the barbarians who ordered, executed or condoned the acts of mass murder just committed in Paris that from now on we will take the lead in fighting and hunting them down, not just beside, but ahead of, our Christian, Jewish, or agnostic brothers and sisters.

"We must do so because Muslims are the extremists’ first victims and because we have mustered the courage to take our responsibilities and launch a massive, global movement for Islamic reform.

"If we do not, we must accept that these monsters represent Islam (and us) in the face of the entire world. With obvious consequences in many an forthcoming European election. The choice is ours.”

Felix Marquardt, founder of the Al Kawakibi Foundation and of the think tank youthonomics #enoughwiththesilence

*************************************
BTW, here is the low-down on Dera Francoise Khan:

Islam in France
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Islam is the second-most widely professed religion in France behind Catholic Christianity by number of worshippers. With an estimated total of 5 to 10 percent of the national population {10% of 66 million is 6.6million}, France has the largest number of Muslims in Western Europe.[1][2][3]

The majority of Muslims in France belong to the Sunni denomination.[4] However, Wahhabism has recently become the dominant component of the French Muslim community and its growth is primarily fueled by funding from Saudi Arabia and Qatar.[5] The vast majority of French Muslims are of immigrant origin, while an estimated 100,000 are converts to Islam of indigenous ethnic French background.[6][7] The French overseas department of Mayotte has a majority of its population being Muslim.[8]

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 15 Nov 2015 18:32

but the french have a very dubious and dark role in north africa..with large scale killings on their hands as colonial powers...both the arabs and french have indulged in massive killings/ massacres !

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 15 Nov 2015 18:37

hnair wrote: a dwindling number of religious nuts talk on such terms. Keep their misogynism out of this forum. Thanks

If by a "dwindling number of religious nuts" you mean the most well known living French author, ex agnostic, and ex Islam hater Michel Houellebecq who just set off a firestorm with his new novel, then yes.

From his earlier novels "Whatever" & "Platform":

THE SUICIDE OF THE WEST:
The Novels Of Michel Houellebecq

Alan Dent

Major writers provoke controversy. Not everything controversial is major, but everything major is controversial. Literature, to paraphrase Pound, is controversy that stays controversial. Michel Houellebecq has internalised the condition of modern Europe more fully and sensitively than any other writer. His capacity to recreate that condition through fiction has the quality of apparent ease characteristic of genius. Houellebecq's shorthand for our plight is, the suicide of the West. The following passage from his latest novel Plateforme (not yet available in English) might be taken as an indication of what that shorthand means:

My European ancestors had worked hard for several centuries; they had undertaken to dominate and then to transform the world, and to a certain extent they had succeeded. They had done so out of economic interest, a taste for work, but also because they believed in the superiority of their civilization: they had invented the dream , progress, Utopia, the future. This consciousness of a civilizing mission had evaporated during the course of the twentieth century. Europeans, at least some of them, went on working, and sometimes working hard, but they did so for gain or out of a neurotic attachment to their task; the innocent consciousness of their natural right to dominate the world, and to direct its future, had disappeared. Due to accumulated effort Europe remained a rich continent; those qualities of intelligence and relentlessness that my ancestors had shown, I had clearly lost A well-heeled European, I could obtain at trifling cost, jn other countries, food, services and women; a decadent European conscious of my approaching death and having subscribed utterly to egocentrism, I saw no reason to do without them. I was aware, however, that such a situation was hardly tenable, that people like me were incapable of ensuring the survival of a society, or were even unworthy to live. Changes would come, were already coming, but I couldn't feel myself genuinely concerned; my only genuine motivation was to get myself out of this shitheap as quickly as possible.

It’s a fact, I mused to myself, that in societies like ours sex truly represents a second system of differentiation, completely independent of money; and as a system of differentiation it functions just as mercilessly. The effects of these two systems are, furthermore, strictly equivalent. Just like unrestrained economic liberalism, and for similar reasons, sexual liberalism produces phenomena of absolute pauperization. Some men make love every day; others five or six times in their life, or never. Some make love with dozens of women, others with none. It’s what’s known as ” the law of the market”. In an economic system where unfair dismissal is prohibited, every person more or less manages to find their place. In a sexual system where adultery is prohibited, every person more or less manages to find their bed mate. In a totally liberal economic system certain people accumulate considerable fortunes; others stagnate in unemployment and misery. In a totally liberal sexual system certain people have a varied and exciting erotic life; others are reduced to masturbation and solitude…………

Love as a kind of innocence and as a capacity for illusion, as an aptitude for epitomizing the whole of the other sex in a single loved being rarely resists a year of sexual immorality, and never two. In reality the successive sexual experiences accumulated during adolescence undermine and rapidly destroy all possibility of projection of an emotional and romantic sort; progressively, and in fact extremely quickly, one becomes as capable of love as an old slag.

The fact that women are forced either to become more meretricious in order to attract men or to face withdrawal into loneliness leads to the deflating conclusion elaborated in Platforme that the progressive professionalization of sexual relations is inevitable...

http://www.pennilesspress.co.uk/prose/s ... e_west.htm

Other earlier novels:

An interview about his latest novel Soumission (Submission in English) which has been wrongly called "Islamophobic" when it really is a scathing indictment of contemporary France (including the sexual revolution) & its Enlightenment inheritance:

That hypothesis is central to the book, but we know that it has been discredited for many years by numerous researchers, who have shown that we are actually witnessing a progressive secularization of Islam, and that violence and radicalism should be understood as the death throes of Islamism. That is the argument made by Olivier Roy, and many other people who have worked on this question for more than twenty years.

This is not what I have observed, although in North and South America, Islam has benefited less than the evangelicals. This is not a French phenomenon, it’s almost global. I don’t know about Asia, but the case of Africa is interesting because there you have the two great religious powers on the rise—evangelical Christianity and Islam. I remain in many ways a Comtean, and I don’t believe that a society can survive without religion...

It’s not necessarily racial, it can be religious. In this case, your book describes the replacement of the Catholic religion by Islam.

No. My book describes the destruction of the philosophy handed down by the Enlightenment, which no longer makes sense to anyone, or to very few people. Catholicism, by contrast, is doing rather well. I would maintain that an alliance between Catholics and Muslims is possible. We’ve seen it happen before, it could happen again.

You who have become an agnostic, you can look on cheerfully and watch the destruction of Enlightenment philosophy?

Yes. It has to happen sometime and it might as well be now. In this sense, too, I am a Comtean. We are in what he calls the metaphysical stage, which began in the Middle Ages and whose whole point was to destroy the phase that preceded it. In itself, it can produce nothing, just emptiness and unhappiness. So yes, I am hostile to Enlightenment philosophy, I need to make that perfectly clear...

We haven’t spoken much about women. Once again you will attract criticism on that front.

Certainly a feminist is not likely to love this book. But I can’t do anything about that.

And yet you were shocked when people described Whatever as misogynistic. This book won’t help your case.

I still don’t think I’m a misogynist, really. I would say that this isn’t the crucial thing, in any case. The thing that may rub people the wrong way is that I show how feminism is demographically doomed. So the underlying idea, which may really upset people in the end, is that ideology doesn’t matter much compared to demographics...

Isn’t there something despairing about this gesture, which you didn’t really choose?

The despair comes from saying good-bye to a civilization, however ancient. But in the end the Koran turns out to be much better than I thought, now that I’ve reread it—or rather, read it. The most obvious conclusion is that the jihadists are bad Muslims. Obviously, as with all religious texts, there is room for interpretation, but an honest reading will conclude that a holy war of aggression is not generally sanctioned, prayer alone is valid. So you might say I’ve changed my opinion. That’s why I don’t feel that I’m writing out of fear. I feel, rather, that we can make arrangements. The feminists will not be able to, if we’re being completely honest. But I and lots of other people will.

You could replace the word feminists with women, no?

No, you can’t replace the word feminists with women. Really you can’t. I make it clear that women can be converts, too.

http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015 ... -new-book/

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 15 Nov 2015 18:57

Quoting chetak:

one would be cautiously skeptical about such claims that physically linked the "found" passports to the actual attackers. They may well have been deep planted sleeper cells already in position for some time.

Very important point, missed by the usual mediots. After 9/11 as well, some claimed to have found the passports of the terrorists in the rubble of the WTC. Think about that. They were inside the cockpits of planes flying 400 mps when they hit concrete towers. The planes did not come out the other side - they burned inside the buildings, which then collapsed as metal building supports melted under the heat. So... the passports survived intact?

How smart does one have to be, to figure that a terrorist going in with a machinegun and soosai vests, is **NOT* going to carry own passport with him? Also, given that the terrorists blew themselves apart (none reported being shot dead), how did the passport sitting either in a chest pocket, or next to the mijjile in the pajama pocket, inches from the soosai belt, survive in readable form?

Les Clouseaux are doing what the French do best, as explained by Inspecteur Renault in 'Casablanca':

Major Strasser has been shot! Round up les usuale suspectes

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Nov 2015 19:19

UK says they are quietly prepared for this swarm attack mode
Britain's special forces are officially on standby to deal with a Paris-style terror attack. SAS on standby always.

http://flip.it/-_IIL

I suppose with highest number of jihadis in Europe they need to be.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 15 Nov 2015 19:24

Swarm attack is essentially over in 10 mins. Best thing they can do is catch any escapees still wearing soosai belts or carrying weapons. Of course best thing they can do is bomb Riyadh, Qatar and Ankara or "rendition" the terrorist netas from there, but that won't happen.
But long-drawn-out torture like in Belen, Mumbai and the Moscow theater may be reduced, I suppose.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 15 Nov 2015 19:24

French terrorism thriller Made in France, which was about to be released on the day of the attacks, delayed after Paris attacks

THE striking posters plastered across metro stations and buses in Paris this week were always provocative, but after Friday’s attacks, they appear in the worst possible taste.

They show an AK-47 assault rifle superimposed over the Eiffel Tower alongside the tagline: “The threat comes from inside.” The confronting image is the centrepiece of a promotional poster for Made in France, a thriller about terrorism that was supposed to open in French cinemas next Wednesday.

The artwork had already raised eyebrows, and after violence tore through the city, distributor Pretty Pictures and producer Radar Films announced the film’s release would be postponed. It is the second time the movie has been delayed this year, after its original release coincided with the Charlie Hebdo terrorist attacks in January.

It includes harrowing scenes that are painfully close to reality, including one where Muslim terrorists shoot at French police and storylines about homegrown extremists being radicalised.

WTF???

Similar to the case of Colorado shooting on the eve of release of the movie "The Dark Night Rises"

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 15 Nov 2015 19:26

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 15 Nov 2015 19:27

UlanBatori wrote:http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e43418.htm
...
14) Western human right organizations are also guilty for creating a culture of bogus human rights rhetoric which belittled and even justified the war crimes of Syrian rebels (see the latest human rights report by HRW on placing Alawite women in cages).
...

This post had quite a few pertinent points but I think this is essential. The "moderate" do this then what do the extremists do? What are we really up against is a mind set which prefers the 07th century and will even parade it.

Expecting this mind set to adjust to 21st century PCness is where the West goes wrong. While the West uses the Liberalism and Western Values in its public posturing, the Middle East shows of this video below with pride.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 15 Nov 2015 19:35

In all fairness - the Serbians did this with the UN PeaceKeepers at their airfields when the USAF came calling back in 1992-93. Put them in cages on the runways..

I am sure this is a standard tactic to counter lack of air supremacy - and to make the headquarters safer. I cannot think of any other reason why Raqqa has not been reduced to Rubbleqqa long ago - I mean by the RUAF. They must have a large resource of Alawite captives from prominent Damascus families for insurance. Tough problem.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Nov 2015 19:36

After token few sorties..
A mythical mastermind named abu amir al bordeuxi would be declared slayed at french hands via a aasm er strike.

Followed by more arms sales to Qatar and ksa.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Nov 2015 19:38

I agree a swarm.once launched will kill 50-200 in busy places.

Qrt can only eliminate any subsequent hostage taking or barricading.

member_29247 · Post by **member_29247** » 15 Nov 2015 19:39

MSA and likes should now worry

.
“My dear Muslim brothers and sisters, it is time to make our voices heard: we must rise up massively and tell the barbarians who ordered, executed or condoned the acts of mass murder just committed in Paris that from now on we will take the lead in fighting and hunting them down, not just beside, but ahead of, our Christian, Jewish, or agnostic brothers and sisters.

Now question
Did the brave Malala Nobel laureate condemn.
Did Durkha butt condemn the act?
Did Turddwsai condemn the act
Did As$Roy condemn the act
....

Did ex CCMB condemn the intolerance or does it fit his Xbar and R bar chart of tolerances ?

And many more

Oh by the HH Dalilama condemn the intolerance?

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 15 Nov 2015 19:39

geez.... UK has a kammittee called COBRA? PIRATE, CAPTOR (its younger bro CAESAR), the naval radar ARTISAN... We will not know how good SAS will be in handling this situation, but UK certainly seem to have a Ministry of Acronyms to deal with any eventualities!!

The general idea of using grenades/explosives against massed civlians, to circumvent lack of good trained shooters is vintage Mumbai attack style. India found out that the hostage situations were just smokescreens for twisting the knife and there were no negotiations. Wonder what SAS is going to do in that situation to reduce the casualities?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Nov 2015 19:41

Sampson radar also. Brimstone missile.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Nov 2015 19:45

I ain't no expert but I felt counter swarming the taj with 3000 troops police everything from ground level and 300 nsg from top might have flushed the rats faster down the tubes. Maybe ladders to induct another 500 at level 3. Flood tactics. You cannot give them the huge time we did to settle into ctease for a dravid type long innings. At one point they were moving around setting small fires for fun in full TV glare..a sordid chapter in our msm tainted history

Sf directed force only works on a confined place..not a huge 1000 room maze. Use counter swarm to overwhelm or contain them in a box as fast as possible.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 15 Nov 2015 19:48

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 15 Nov 2015 19:51

We need "Sammohana Astra," aka modern day sleeping gas agents (color less). We should throw them in 1000s and saturate the building. Once everybody fell for a chemical sleep, separate terrorists from hostages.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 15 Nov 2015 19:52

^^^^^^^

Vivek
‏@Vikoo65
.@_sabanaqvi in that case I blame Mohammed Ghazni for starting it all.Remember history doesn't begin with Bush.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 15 Nov 2015 19:53

May be we are over analyzing this whole effing thing and may be Obama is right in saying don't effing speculate....what he may have meant is just watch the effing movie "Made in France". How strange is that a movie release related to urban terrorism coincides with terror events depicted in it (twice).

Hope investigators are watching/have watched that movie to get clues about who did this and why. That looks like essential part of "investigation"

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Nov 2015 19:59

Sleeping gas is too slow. Powerful nerve agents have issues as moscow theater showed. Omon unit went in and killed the women suicide bombers sitting among hostages with head shots but the nerve gas went feral to the cluck clucking of the west at backward russia

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 15 Nov 2015 20:23

Two French nationals residing Brussels and Sint-Jans-Molenbeek respectively were indentified by experts as taken part in the deadly Paris attacks, the Federal Prosecutor announced in a press release, according to RTBF.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Nov 2015 20:30

Sputniknews
A Syrian passport bearing the name 'Ahmad Almohammad,' found on the body of one of the eight terrorists who carried out the Paris attacks, appears to be a fake. The jihadist obtained it in Turkey, intelligence officials reported.
According to some reports, two Syrian passports were found on the bodies of two of the terrorists, but Paris police sources say they were both fakes.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151115/ ... z3rZnvVKve

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 15 Nov 2015 20:39

Has Saudi Barberia condemed the attack?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Nov 2015 20:46

Profile of molenbeek in Brussels. Interesting.
http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.prem ... E0FF1CDCFC

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 15 Nov 2015 20:50

Singha wrote:Sleeping gas is too slow. Powerful nerve agents have issues as moscow theater showed. Omon unit went in and killed the women suicide bombers sitting among hostages with head shots but the nerve gas went feral to the cluck clucking of the west at backward russia

They forgot to switch off the gas after the terrorists were killed.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 15 Nov 2015 20:51

There might be overdose issues in isolation, but IIRC, In the Moscow seige, it was more a clinical reason. Fentanyl (the gas used), needs active resuscitation procedures for many folks. In Moscow, they were not put in a recovery position ASAP and hence choked. Some wont wake up without anti-medication. It was a nice move by the russians, but I guess at some point they could no do the recovery fast enough.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Nov 2015 21:00

http://time.com/4113157/paris-attack-ba ... ght-video/

This video shows the first responder police could not enter the lobby. Driven back by bursts of rifle fire. The cop who runs back behind the cameraman's car has a pistol only.

Approx 1 hr later the metro BRI swat unit same type of unit that assaulted the cafe near Charlie hebdo breached the theater incl with ladders from side or back.

In Mumbai also local cops were no match in firepower and training.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2015 21:01

Here is the article co-authored by me and Dr. Jagan about the Moscow theatre rescue using gas

BREATH OF FREEDOM:
UTILITY OF CHEMICAL AGENTS IN ANTI TERRORIST OPS

On Wednesday the 23rd of October 2002 about 50 armed Islamist Chechen terrorists forced their way into a Moscow theater which was showing a musical and took about 800 people hostage. The terrorists threatened to blow themselves and the theater up, and kill all the hostages.(1,4)

The standoff, and the hostages ordeal, continued for 3 days and as the world watched through the eyes of the media parked outside the theater, hopes for a settlement without massive bloodshed were fading. But Russia sprang a surprise on the terrorists and the watching world. In a 'first time ever' action, seemingly taken straight out of science fiction books, Russian security forces used a mystery "knockout gas" to incapacitate the terrorists and hostages alike, stormed the theater and killed all the terrorists and rescued over 750 hostages (2,3). The rescue came at a high cost - with 117 (4) to 119 (5) hostages having died without injury from causes that have been allegedly attributed to the use of a chemical agent to overpower the terrorists and their hostages.

The purpose of this paper is to examine the role of chemical agents in reversibly and safely overpowering groups of people in closed areas. Some technical aspects regarding the use of these agents will be discussed, along with the particular difficulties and dangers and a description of known chemical agents that could be used in such situations. Chemical agents designed to cause death will not be discussed. The two agents currently thought to have been employed by the Russians in this hostage crisis, Fentanyl(4,6) and possibly Halothane(5,6) are described.

TECHNICAL CONSIDERATIONS:

The ideal "knockout gas" for use in hostage situations should have the following
characteristics:

* Solubility and Uptake:
It should be capable of passing into the blood from the air in the lungs and then pass
from the blood into the brain

* Physical Properties:
It should be colorless and odorless.

* Volatility:
The agent should be easy to disperse in large volumes quickly.

* Potency:
It should be capable of acting rapidly to cause unconsciousness when breathed in -
perhaps acting over the span of 10 or 12 breaths.

* Pharmacological Effects:
It should then be very safe so that even if an unconscious person continues to breathe
the gas for several minutes or hours it should not cause any further damage or
complications.

* And lastly, the effect of the gas should be rapidly reversible. That is, either the gas
should be spontaneously washed out by the body when exposure is terminated, or its
effect should be easily reversed by an antidote.

Unfortunately no such ideal gas or compound exists.

The most commonly employed agents that rapidly cause unconsciousness are used routinely for general anesthesia for surgical operations. But every single one of these agents has drawbacks that make it less than ideal for use as a gas to render people unconscious, safely and securely, without intensive (close) medical supervision.

Some chemical agents may not be reliably absorbed from the lungs when breathed, and are best given as injections or tablets. Others may act very slowly, even if absorbed from the lungs. These are obviously unsuitable, and can be ruled out.

Many agents have a characteristic odor that makes them easily detectable. Some are irritant and may cause coughing or burning of the eyes. Either way, the use of such agents could trigger a dangerous panic reaction from a tense, tired hostage taker before they cause unconsciousness.

Some agents occur as powders or liquids, and these will need to be dispered in the air for them to be inhaled. This may not be a very difficult technical hurdle to cross. Many countries, and Russia in particular have developed great expertise in creating aerosols from liquids or powders. Aerosols(7,8) are minute droplets or powders suspended in a gas. Aerosols can be generated from powders or liquids by accurate control of particle size, shape, concentration and electric charge(9) The Federal Institute of Applied Chemistry in Russia (10) has developed great expertise in this area.

If all the above conditions are adequately met, there still remains the crucial question of safety. Contrary to popular belief chemical agents that cause sedation, narcosis or loss of consciousness do not cause "sleep" in the true sense of the word. A person who is asleep is rousable and is able to regain full consciousness rapidly. But a person who is under the influence of a drug that causes unconsciousness is in a state akin to a drunken stupor.

All the agents used suppress brain functions to cause this stupor, and whenever brain function is suppressed the part of the brain that controls breathing is also suppressed to an extent. The higher the dose of the "knockout agent" the greater the suppression of breathing, (and other side effects) leading eventually to a cascade of events in the body that can cause death. Unlike injections or tablets that provide a fixed dose of chemical agent to the body, an agent that is present in the atmosphere will be inhaled with each breath and the dose of the substance reaching the blood and brain will increase with each breath and eventually lead to possible fatal overdosage unless the chemical laden air that is being breathed can be quickly replaced and substituted with normal air or oxygen. A number of individual factors may delay or accelerate death under such circumstances. Younger people with healthy cardiac and respiratory systems will last longer as may people who are drug addicts or alcoholics, whose bodies may destroy some agents faster than normal. Elderly people with heart disease, and people weakened by disease or starvation and dehydration will likely succumb faster.

This then sets the stage for the effects of introducing an anesthetic or sedative gas into a confined sapce, such as was done in Russia. Within the space, people sitting near vents through which the gas is introduced will receive higher doses more quickly than those sitting away from vents, and in these areas, the elderly and weak will succumb soonest from an overdose, possible even before others in other areas lose consciousness. This theoretical model fits in well with the reports of the Moscow siege, with a mixed picture of people who were conscious and unconscious, some deaths, while some people remained relatively unaffected.

AGENTS WHICH SATISFY SOME OR MOST OF THE REQUIREMENTS DESCRIBED ABOVE ARE AS FOLLOWS:

Nitrous Oxide, Halothane, Enflurane, Isoflurane, Sevoflurane, Desflurane

Other volatile agents which do cause loss of consciousness, but unfit for a mission such as the Moscow theater crisis are:
Vallium, Chloroform, Cyclopropane, Methoxyflurane, Trichloroethylene, Fluroxene, Diethylether.

There are a number of agents which are under research and might qualify as Anaesthetic agents of the future are:
Xenon, Compound 485, Thiomethoxyflurane, n-Pentane, Diosychlorane.
In addition, Argon, Nitrogen, and Hydrogen also induce Anaesthetic effects, but they are rarely used.

We will also consider Opiate derived drugs and reasons why it was chosen over others in the operation to neutralise the Chechen Terrorists inside the Moscow Theater.

We will consider the most likely agents and their pros and cons and thus, the suitability of their usage in a Hostage situation.

Note: The potency of an anaesthetic gas can be defined by the concentration required to prevent movement in response to a painful stimulus in 50% of patients/subjects. It is customary to use the minimum alveolar concentration, or MAC value, as a measure of drug potency. Anaesthetic agents with low MAC values are more potent

1. Nitrous Oxide and Ether: As the only organic gas practical for clinical anesthesia, Nitrous Oxide is denser than air, colourless and tasteless, but has a slightly sweet odor. Also it supports combustion as actively as oxygen and therefore flammable and thus it does not fit in the profile of a safe and undetectable gas usable in a hostage situation. Also, Nitrous has low solubility in blood and requires up to 100% concentration to induce anesthesia or unconsciousness although it has a rapid onset and recovery with minimal cardiovascular and respiratory effects. It is comparable to Ether which also has a characteristic smell which makes it unpleasant to breathe, highly volatile and explosive in Oxygen. Ether is also associated with a slow onset and a slow recovery in addition to causing irritation of the Lungs (bronchial tree) which may slow down the induction of anaesthesia and thus causes nausea and vomiting much more than any other agent.

2. Halothane (Fluothane): Halothane has a near-perfect profile of physical properties. It is well tolerated by Human body, non-irritant and adequately potent (Low MAC) since it is relatively insoluble in blood, giving rapid induction, low dose management and rapid recovery. Therefore it is known as the ideal inhalation induction agent. Cons: It is perhaps too potent and overdose is easy. It also requires that Oxygen be induced side by side to avoid hypoxia or oxygen starvation for the brain. Thus Halothane can be set aside for use in a strictly clinical setting.

3. Isoflurane: Isoflurane (and Enflurane) have a lower side effect profile and a more rapid offset of action when compared with halothane, but Isoflurane has a irritating bad smell and thus undetected induction is not possible. Also,

4. Desflurane: It needs specially designed vaporisers and thus, is not suitable for mobility which is necessary for optimum military usage.

5. Sevoflurane: It has a ultra low solubility and thus results in ultra rapid induction and at the same time, rapid recovery which is attractive for use in a hostile situation involving hostages. It is also non-irritant (like Halothane) but its sweet smell is a major obstacle to detectability and therefore disqualified for usage in a scenario similar to the Moscow Theater Crisis.

6. Valium (Diazepam): Dr. Christopher Holstege, medical toxicology director at the University of Virginia first speculated that aerosolized valium could have been used by the Russians in the Theater crisis. But it too has to be rejected. As any other benzodiazapine valium is an anti-anxiety and anticonvulsant (muscle relaxation) drug that causes only minimal sedation. Although it is possible that valium might have been used in combination with some more potent anesthetic.

7. BZ gas: Experts also mentioned BZ, or 3-quinuclidinyl benzilate, as a possibility for the gas used by the Russians. It belongs to a class of drugs known as anticholinergics that interrupt the brain's chemical messaging system between cells, leading to confusion and hallucinations. BZ takes an hour to start working and its effects peak at eight hours - whereas the Russian gas worked in seconds. Moreover, a hallucinogen seems a risky choice for terrorists strapped to bombs.

8. Opiate Derivatives: Opiods are a family of substances ranging from the well known natural opium, morphine to relatively unknown fentanyl, sufentanyl, meptazinol, etc. Most opiods make good analgesics: They are well known for their ability to reduce the perception of pain without a loss of consciousness. But for our consideration of potential military usage agents, we will concentrate on Opiate derivatives that also induce unconsciousness, such as Fentanyl.
Fentanyl citrate is one such synthetic opioid related to phenylpiperidines. It is an aqueous citrate salt of Fentanyl and can be converted into a aerosol for inhalation. Fentanyl is about 80 times as potent as morphine and brings about anaesthesia in adults with spontaneous respiration. It acts on �1 opiod receptors and thus brings in supra spinal analgesic and sedation. Its low detectability, fast but brief action makes it an attractive agent for usage in a situation similar to the Moscow theater crisis.

Moreover, its small molecular size, density and static electricity provides for easy aerolisation and usage in a wider area such as a theater or other large, but closed airspace.

However, fentanyl has some side-effects, of which nausea, vomiting, drowsiness and confusion are some. Larger doses produce respiratory depression, hypotension with circulatory failure and deepening coma. But these and the other pharmacological effects of fentanyl, can be reversed by specific narcotic antagonists (eg naloxone). The usage of Naloxone by doctors in Moscow hospitals for treatment of released hostages gave away the first clue to the correct assessment of the gas by doctors attached to the American Embassy in Moscow.

People most at risk from the effects of overdosing on opiate derivatives like fentanyl are those with pre-existing health conditions, such as chronic asthma or other serious respiratory problems, liver damage (such as in alcoholics or diabetics), various heart conditions. Stress, hunger and dehydration - all experienced by the hostages - would greatly compound any such risks.

Thus we have analysed a range of volatile agents that can induce anaesthesia or unconsciousness with reference to a set of requirements necessary for a particular agent to qualify as ideal or near-ideal for use in a Terrorist situation involving captors holding hostages inside a closed building, hereby neutralising both the captives and their terrorist captors, enabling a quick commando action by elite forces to free the hostages and kill or capture the terrorists.

The Moscow theater hostage drama and the subsequent Russian response has demostrated the need for Law enforcement bodies around the world involved in counter-terrorism activities to actively pursue programs for research and integration of chemical agents usage to traditional methods of hostage crisis resolutions.

SOURCES AND FURTHER READING
1)http://in.news.yahoo.com/021025/137/1wxhr.html
2)http://www.bayarea.com/mld/bayarea/news ... 370982.htm
3)http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... iege_dc_65
4)http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... &printer=1
5)http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L30350073
6)http://www.boston.com/news/daily/30/russia_gas.htm
7)http://terra.nasa.gov/FactSheets/Aerosols/
8)http://www.aerosol-soc.org.uk/aerosols.asp
9)http://www.biral.com/aerosol/aerosolgeneration.htm
10)http://www.milparade.com/1998/26/046.htm
11)Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine, Isselbacher et al; McGraw-Hill, 1994.
12)Clinical Pharamacology, Laurence and Bennett, Churchill Livingstone, 1993.
13)Textbook of Medical Physiology, Guyton, WB Saunders, 1986.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 15 Nov 2015 21:52

IndraD wrote:One of my friends in UK was shouted upon at Tesco 'Pakis go back'
These are fall out of terrorist attacks,creating friction in society.
Unfortunately aam British doesn't diifferentiate between us & Pakjabis.
Any way to improve this?
This was OT ofcourse.

गर्व से कहो हम हिन्दू है

Keep Ganpati murti at work. Preach vegetarianism. And keep thanking gods vociferously and openly that you are not born in Pakistan.

Don't know any other way.

SSundar · Post by **SSundar** » 15 Nov 2015 22:02

NRao wrote:
indian owned shops should hang a indian flag in the window to identify indics with the tricolour and indians takes to wearing basecall caps with that flag and keep a indian flag in the car.
Some Paki shops have followed some aspects of that practice too. Some have changed their names to include "Indo-Pak" and say "Namaste" when one enters. They adapt. They have to to survive.

Indian shops just have to counter-adapt and greet visitors with "Jai Shri Ram" or "Sat Sri Akal"!!!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 15 Nov 2015 22:02

rsingh wrote:Has Saudi Barberia condemed the attack?

yes, they have.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Nov 2015 22:07

Singha wrote:Sleeping gas is too slow. Powerful nerve agents have issues as moscow theater showed. Omon unit went in and killed the women suicide bombers sitting among hostages with head shots but the nerve gas went feral to the cluck clucking of the west at backward russia

poor coordination. they didn't keep enough antidotes or emergency response teams or even inform the emergency response teams what they had done. desire to retain capability versus saving lives.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Nov 2015 22:09

the paris attack has likely some amount of support from ex-state elements in ME. that level of coordination + financing + training speaks for it..

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 15 Nov 2015 22:09

Former COAS JJ Singh's son is settled down in France. Runs a business there.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 15 Nov 2015 22:14

chetak wrote:
rsingh wrote:Has Saudi Barberia condemed the attack?
yes, they have.

b4 or after the event? That 'ISIS' announcement sounded exactly like what a Saudi Fridin sermon might be, in my imagination...

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 15 Nov 2015 22:27

source: Sputniknews

Eighth suspected attacker and a brother to one confirmed and one suspected terrorists may have managed to escape arrest and is on the loose, prompting a mass manhunt.

An international arrest warrant was issued for Abdeslam Saleh, 26, from Belgium.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 15 Nov 2015 22:36

UlanBatori wrote:
chetak wrote:
{quote="rsingh"}Has Saudi Barberia condemed the attack?{/quote}

yes, they have.

b4 or after the event? That 'ISIS' announcement sounded exactly like what a Saudi Fridin sermon might be, in my imagination...

It was after the event,

in the usual pious saudi claptrappy way. that the saudis were somewhere complicit in the paris jehadi mix is eminently possible. the paki connection will also emerge soon, in training perhaps??.