Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

soumik · Post by **soumik** » 13 Nov 2015 16:52

I still reiterate my old comment,
we do not need to go through the whole decade long song and dance in selecting new submarines while our adversaries increase their fleet strengths.
We should scrap P75I and simply use the 8$billion to outright buy 20 Kilos, we are also planning for four more Scorpene. this will give us a fleet of 30 brand new SSK by 2025, I think that at least six of the relatively newer Sindhughosh class can also be retained till 2035 with refits. i.e we can have a fleet of 36 SSK till 2035.
Use this time to develop an indigenous SSK by 2030 (15 yr development plan). Put it into serial production to replace the Sindhughosh by 2035 and so on and so forth.

Simultaneously we should also see all six indigenous SSN joining the fleet by early 2030's alongwith two Russian imports disguised as leases. Add to that the arihant class boast and the followon class subs and we should have a respectable force comprising of

36 SSK(20 new kilo + 6 older KILO+ 10 Scorpene)
4SSBN
2 AKULA
2 Indigenous SSN
i.e. 44 submarines by 2025 and

36 SSK (20 Kilo+ 10 Scorpene + 6 indigenous SSK)
6SSBN (4 ARIHANT +2 follow on class)
6 Indigenous SSN
2 Leased Yasen
i.e.50 submarines by 2035

I agree Kilos might not be the best out there but they get the job done, that's what matters!
Numbers have a quality all their own and I fear that in our pursuit of Quality we are forgetting the numbers angle.

It's imperative that we get on this now, I for one will be jumping with joy if in December NAMO scraps P75I to buy 20 kilos outright!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Nov 2015 17:06

kmkraoind wrote:
Sitanshu Kar @SpokespersonMoD

'We bid adieu to Tu 142M and welcome Boeing P-8I to Naval Aviation': CNS Admiral RK Dhowan

The P8I Adventures: Things you need to know about Navy's submarine hunter killer

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Nov 2015 17:42

However,the P-8s don't have the immense range and endurance of the Ti-142 Bears,which can fly to S.Africa and back without refueling,still being used in the bombing role by the Russians,being equipped with newer cruise missiles of 2500km+ range. Recent pic in the Ru mil td.The IN should see whether the Bears have enough (upgraded) life in them for that role,LR maritime strike.The Harpoon is also inferior to BMos which can be carried by the Bear. Once Nirbhay has been perfected,Bears with Nirbhay and BMos would give the IN a very deadly LR strike capability as far off as the ICS.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 13 Nov 2015 17:53

I agree with Philip sir, but then wish we get atleast a dozen backfires as cruise missile carriers to complement P-8Is.

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 13 Nov 2015 18:41

Not sure why that statement about bidding farewell to the 'albatross'. They're all (8) being upgraded, some already delivered. So they aren't going anywhere.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 13 Nov 2015 20:36

Re the INS Godavari incident.. it was during the UPA era right

One would expect a rational enemy not to try such stupid things again... not with the knowledge of the recent pasting their jihadi brothers on the borders have been getting at the hands of the BSF and the sinking of the 'innocent' cargo boat by the Indian coast guard

But you can trust these inbred cretins to do stupid things again and again.

Actually it would be interesting if they do try the stunt now.. this time in all probability the IN would let them get some distance ahead and then open up.. there would be no more stunts for a period after that.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 13 Nov 2015 21:49

^we must encourage such behaviour by naval abduls.

Will be fun seeing them try the stunt with INS Kolkata or the Vikramaditya ..

AoA onlee.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 13 Nov 2015 23:13

Singha wrote:it was not overtaking, but deliberate.

have not heard of firing in such situation, even in hot days of cold war.

There was many incidences of Soviet ships ramming American warships in cold wars. Deliberate ramming , see below video

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 14 Nov 2015 00:36

A couple of thoughts on the Babur vs Godavari incident:

- Sailors on both warships seemed amused as the two ships came closer (clicking pictures etc). It seems surprising to me that our officers did not have the sailors assigned to their posts or at least to safer confines of their ship.

- Babur (COGOG) was clearly gaining on Godavari (Steam turbine). The former's captain knew of his advantage.

nirav wrote:^we must encourage such behaviour by naval abduls.

Will be fun seeing them try the stunt with INS Kolkata or the Vikramaditya ..

AoA onlee.

Godavari is an old ship, but she is no Sukanya ... fairly well armed and matched with Babur. What would Kolkata do differently?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 14 Nov 2015 02:55

Didn't Tu142 just finish the upgrade in 2011 and were going to serve the navy till 2025?

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 14 Nov 2015 21:02

Aditya G wrote:
nirav wrote:^we must encourage such behaviour by naval abduls.

Will be fun seeing them try the stunt with INS Kolkata or the Vikramaditya ..

AoA onlee.
Godavari is an old ship, but she is no Sukanya ... fairly well armed and matched with Babur. What would Kolkata do differently?

Was talking in context of tonnage and its impact on ram-mification.

Ramming the Kolkata or the VikAd increases probability of AoA chanters on Babur managing to reach Osama bin Ladens hangout below.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Nov 2015 21:30

Not sure why that statement about bidding farewell to the 'albatross'. They're all (8) being upgraded, some already delivered. So they aren't going anywhere.

You are more closer to such topics, but, I just googled and found 1) they were not "upgraded", but were "overhauled", 2) that of the 8, three were overhauled in 2011 and the decision to send three more triggered that twit - GoI felt it was not worth the expense. Thus the farewell - to these three at least.

Also, there have been an article or two that claim that the Tu are rather expensive to operate, so at some pint in time they run into the P-8I (cost wise).

Seems to me that the IN will have 5 out there, three of which are expected to soldier on till 2025.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 14 Nov 2015 21:32

http://m.indiatoday.in/story/navy-to-fi ... 22790.html

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Nov 2015 22:02

nirav wrote:http://m.indiatoday.in/story/navy-to-fi ... 22790.html

Exclusive: INS Kolkata readies to test fire top-of-the-range air defence missile

Top sources within the Ministry of Defence (MoD) have confirmed that within this month, the Long Range Surface to Air Missile (LRSAM) - a joint development project between India's Defence Research and Development organisation (DRDO) and Israel's Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) - will be fitted, integrated and put to test on board destroyer Kolkata. The actual firing will take place, "if not this month then before the end of next month," according to a senior officer.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 14 Nov 2015 22:31

Can Kolkata class accomodate the ER version? Considering it's 1.5m taller than the base Barak 8?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Nov 2015 22:49

Karthik S wrote:Can Kolkata class accomodate the ER version? Considering it's 1.5m taller than the base Barak 8?

The VLS launcher should with some modification

John · Post by **John** » 14 Nov 2015 23:22

^ Austin you cannot modify a vls system will have refit a new system which will require an extensive refit. As for barak 8 er there was earlier report that it use same launcher as barak 8 but that has not yet been confirmed.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 14 Nov 2015 23:26

There was a report only 6 Barak 8 ER will be carried inplace of 8 barak 8. Thus the total sum load will decrease to 24 nos Barak8 ER.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 14 Nov 2015 23:30

sankum wrote:there was a report only 6 Barak8 ER will be carried inplace of 8 barak 8. This the total sam load will decrease to 24 nos Barak8 ER.

That would be necessary if the diameter of ER is greater than that of base Barak 8, but it seems only the height/length of the missile is greater. So don't think fewer number of missiles will be carried.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 15 Nov 2015 12:13

@Aditya FPA based IIR EO sights offer much better resolution and discrimination than radar. The heated missile airframe and exhaust show better than radar reflection of the relatively small missile airframe. The only challenge is EO range is limited vis-a-vis radar, so for long range engagements, radar is better. But for short range applications, EO is more effective. All our CRN-91 armed patrol craft are EO guided. All Russian new CIWS (Palma) and AK-630 are EO guided.

@John - Kolkata is supposed to have a EO sight like Shivalik, although I have not examined pictures. I would be visiting INS Kochi in the next few weeks, so I can check it out.

Tu-142 like everything Russian was cheap to buy and horrendously expensive to operate resulting in very high total lifecycle cost. Operating a P-8I is like running a Low Cost Carrier like Indigo. The money saved can be invested elsewhere.

Lastly Aditya, steam turbines offer as much energy as gas turbines. The Godavari CO was very deliberately at cruise speed instead of trying to race the Babur.

If I remember the incident correctly, there was a piracy incident reported. Two Pakistani ships responded, and they rescued the merchant sailors, that also included Indians, who were treated very courteously onboard the Pakistani F-22 (probably PNS Saif). Thereafter INS Godavari, unaware that the incident had already been responded by PN, came to the area. That rankled the H&D of Pakistanis who wanted to claim all glory themselves and brushed INS Godavari.

Such brushings are commonplace in South China Sea and Icelandic Cod Wars, but meaningless since even the attacking ship suffers structural damage.

Those days, all navies enjoyed the press glory against piracy by Somali fishermen whose legitimate national fishing grounds were poached by Taiwanese, Thai & Korean mechanised trawlers. The Somalis apprehended by IN/ICG are enjoying their time in Indian jail getting three square meals. Nor are they complaining about the long legal process.

@Soumik - your wishlist of submarines in large bold letters is a bit of a eyesore. Can kindly you change them to normal size? It will be read by all as much as earlier. Thanks in advance!

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 15 Nov 2015 12:23

INS Delhi & Tarkash open for public viewing at Tiger Gate, Next to Ballard Pier, Mumbai on 14th & 15th November as well as 21st & 22nd November 9 - 3 pm. Carry a Government ID and no mobiles or cameras allowed. Provision for water and first aid inside the dock.

Enjoy your stroll next to BrahMos VLS and Shtil rocker arms!

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 15 Nov 2015 15:00

Tsarkar: excellent perspective as usual. I strongly suggest you blog your experience for wider benefit.

This what the sequence of events was as per reports by Manu Pubby:

...

The chain of events leading up to the brush-off began on Tuesday, when the M V Suez was released by Somali pirates after tough negotiations and the payment of a $2.2-million ransom. The vessel began its journey to Oman under the watch of multiple navies — as is the case with any merchant vessel in the pirate-infested waters.

On Wednesday afternoon, the Suez reported that it had been attacked by pirates again. The distress signal was picked up by warships of several countries, including the INS Godavari, which was at the time escorting a convoy of three merchant ships in the area, with 21 Indians on board.

Acting as per the international convention that has governed anti-piracy operations in the region for the past three years, the Indian Navy contacted friendly navies in the region to determine which warship was closest to respond to Suez’s call. Contact was also made with the US-initiated Combined Task Force (CTF) 151, a multination coalition of warships that patrol the Gulf of Aden.

One of the first warships that responded, officials said, was PNS Babur, which is part of CTF 151. The Pakistani warship declared that it was proceeding to escort the Suez. As per the laws of the sea, the other warships in the region then continued on their patrols, staying on alert for other piracy attempts.

However, late on Wednesday, apparently after repeated reports on Indian TV that a Pakistani naval ship had reached the Suez while India was “taking no action” and “letting down” its citizens on board, the government directed the Indian Navy to send in a warship to “establish contact” with the Suez, sources said.

The directive meant pulling the Godavari off its regular mission, and putting the warships of India and Pakistan in close proximity on the high seas — a situation that has the potential of turning tense.

As it turned out, the Suez, which already had several Pakistani commados on board, failed to respond to multiple attempts by the Godavari to get in touch.

Afterward, as the Indian warship sought to disengage and return to its original escort duties, the Babur brushed across its aft.

....

It did not help us that the Captian was Pakistani. But in any case, he should have responded to Godavari and informed that he is under protection.

This a good compilation:

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2011/06/th ... -suez.html

tsarkar wrote:@Aditya FPA based IIR EO sights offer much better resolution and discrimination than radar. The heated missile airframe and exhaust show better than radar reflection of the relatively small missile airframe. The only challenge is EO range is limited vis-a-vis radar, so for long range engagements, radar is better. But for short range applications, EO is more effective. All our CRN-91 armed patrol craft are EO guided. All Russian new CIWS (Palma) and AK-630 are EO guided.

@John - Kolkata is supposed to have a EO sight like Shivalik, although I have not examined pictures. I would be visiting INS Kochi in the next few weeks, so I can check it out.

Tu-142 like everything Russian was cheap to buy and horrendously expensive to operate resulting in very high total lifecycle cost. Operating a P-8I is like running a Low Cost Carrier like Indigo. The money saved can be invested elsewhere.

Lastly Aditya, steam turbines offer as much energy as gas turbines. The Godavari CO was very deliberately at cruise speed instead of trying to race the Babur.

If I remember the incident correctly, there was a piracy incident reported. Two Pakistani ships responded, and they rescued the merchant sailors, that also included Indians, who were treated very courteously onboard the Pakistani F-22 (probably PNS Saif). Thereafter INS Godavari, unaware that the incident had already been responded by PN, came to the area. That rankled the H&D of Pakistanis who wanted to claim all glory themselves and brushed INS Godavari.

Such brushings are commonplace in South China Sea and Icelandic Cod Wars, but meaningless since even the attacking ship suffers structural damage.

Those days, all navies enjoyed the press glory against piracy by Somali fishermen whose legitimate national fishing grounds were poached by Taiwanese, Thai & Korean mechanised trawlers. The Somalis apprehended by IN/ICG are enjoying their time in Indian jail getting three square meals. Nor are they complaining about the long legal process.

@Soumik - your wishlist of submarines in large bold letters is a bit of a eyesore. Can kindly you change them to normal size? It will be read by all as much as earlier. Thanks in advance!

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 15 Nov 2015 15:31

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 879187.ece

A state-of-the-art facility to test ship design by examining ship models and submerged bodies in simulated sea conditions – Seakeeping and Manoeuvring Basin (SMB) – at the Naval Science and Technological Laboratory (NSTL) was dedicated to the nation by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar here on Saturday.

The Rs.168-crore facility for experimental hydro dynamics for testing ship models and submerged bodies built for use by the Indian Navy could be used even by civilian ship builders, the Defence Minister said, congratulating the scientists and staff of the NSTL for building the facility. SMB helps test models to predict seakeeping and manoeuvring performance of newly designed ships and submerged bodies under different environmental conditions and for optimising the motion characteristics of the hull form and effectiveness of the control devices under various manoeuvres.

SMB is the latest as far as technology is concerned and is on par with any of the commercially available equipment across the world.

The facility was designed and developed using Indian equipment.

Expendable decoy

The Minister formally handed over the Advanced Anti-Torpedo Defence System, ‘Maareech’, designed and developed by the NSTL, to the Indian Navy. He also handed over an expendable decoy to Chief of Naval Staff Admiral R.K. Dhowan. Already, 40 systems have been manufactured and are being deployed in Navy ships. The highly advanced system goes to prove that India is capable of producing even high level of technology, the Minister pointed out.

Varunastra – the heavy torpedo – designed and developed by the NSTL had already gone through user evaluation trials and is waiting for clearance to go into production.

The good coordination between the Navy and the DRDO is worth emulating, the Minister said, referring to the projects delivered by the NSTL and urged the DRDO to ensure that future projects were integrated with users.

The NSTL, using the concurrent technology model, has been working closely with users and manufacturers to ensure minimum lag in acceptance and production, Outstanding Scientist and Director, NSTL, C.D. Malleswar said.

...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Nov 2015 22:44

Huge development! Now with this and LWT, we finally have a base off of which we can continue with more variants, subsystem advancement etc.

Varunastra – the heavy torpedo – designed and developed by the NSTL had already gone through user evaluation trials and is waiting for clearance to go into production.

The NSTL has developed both light-water torpedoes (LWTs), named TAL, and heavy-weight torpedoes (HWTs), named Takshak and Varunastra. Takshak has two versions, a submarine-launched variant with wire guidance and a ship-launched one with autonomous guidance. Varunastra is an advanced version of the ship-launched HWT. Under development is a torpedo called Shakti with thermal propulsion, which can generate 500 kilowatt of power and rev up the engine within a second. Thermal propulsion is a challenging technology, said Rangarajan. It is a totally indigenous effort. We have already consolidated several technologies in its development. Only the United States, the United Kingdom and Russia had torpedoes with thermal propulsion when we took up the challenge.

Varunastra, which is ready for trials by the Navy, weighs more than one tonne and contains 250 kg of explosives. It travels at a speed of 40 knots an hour, going in circles and bobbing up and down to attack targets. K. Sudhakar, Principal Associate Director, NSTL, called the torpedo's homing device, located in its front portion, “its eyes and ears” as it detects and tracks the target. Its guidance system enables it to take the optimum path towards the target, and its onboard computer guides its rudder's navigation towards the target. The warhead has a proximity fuse, with the blast occurring about 8 m from the target. “The torpedo should have its own intelligence to reject the decoy and go towards the target,” Sudhakar said. Besides, torpedoes should be water-tight. “Development of a torpedo takes 10 to 15 years. It has to go through several sea trials. We started out in this field 25 years ago. No torpedo technology is available in the open market,” he added.

http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2 ... 509800.htm

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Nov 2015 22:59

See from 4:07 onwards for actual Varunastra vidclip.

https://youtu.be/KQUgFz4QWKc?t=248

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 15 Nov 2015 23:14

Make in India of the "Fight" component of the warship keeps factories humming. IN has 40+ ships on order from less than 10 yards. But these ships need 1000s of units of Maareech, Kavach, RGB-12, RGB-60, TAL and Varunastra!

M.Ravi,(with tie) General Manager, Heavy Alloy Penetrator Project (HAPP), explaining the Russian Version of Anti Submarine Rocket Guided Bomb 60(RGB-60) a Naval ammunition on occasion of Ordnance Factories Day in Tiruchi

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 15 Nov 2015 23:37

Hmm apparently Navy wants to replace the CRN-91/Medak gun ...

... and is not finding it easy.

CRN-91 is probably one of the most numerous warship cannon, especially when coupled with ICG numbers.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /74746130/

NEW DELHI — Italian company Oto Melara will not be permitted to participate in a $400 million global tender issued recently by the Indian Navy for 110 30mm naval guns because of an ongoing probe into charges of corruption against its parent company, Finmeccanica, a source in the Ministry of Defence (MoD) said.

The tender issued under the "Buy and Make" category has been sent to Israeli companies Rafael and Elbit, South Korea's Samsung Techwin, and British companies BAE Systems and EM Digital.

"Since it was competitive bidding, Oto Melara could not have been allowed as per government policy," a Navy official said.

....

The Indian decision put on hold a long-pending deal worth $300 million for the purchase of 98 Black Shark heavyweight torpedoes, manufactured by Finmeccanica's Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subacquei (WASS) and urgently required for the six French-designed Scorpene submarines being built for the Indian Navy at state-owned Mazagon Docks in Mumbai.

....

The tender for the 30mm naval guns was issued in March 2013 but no overseas vendor participated because there was a condition of transfer of gun barrel technology to state-owned Bharat Heavy Electronics Ltd. (BHEL), which will produce the guns under license, the Indian Navy official said.

"The condition for transfer of technology of the gun barrel has been removed in the latest tender issued last week and we expect a good response from overseas companies now," the Navy official added.

Another Navy official said Oto Melara's participation would have been preferred because India is already using 76mm naval guns license-produced by BHEL under license from the Italian company, and Oto Melara's gun technology is "superior."

Delay in acquiring the 30mm naval guns has led to "frequent overhauls of existing Oto Melara guns," said Shyam Kumar Singh, a retired Indian Navy captain.

The Navy plans to purchase 110 30mm naval surface guns with electro-optical fire control systems (EOFCS) along with ammunition. The technology transfer will be done in favor of Haridwar-based facility of BHEL, Chennai-based facility of state-owned Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) will get technology for the integration of the gun system. The ammunition will be license-produced by India's state-owned Ordnance Factory Board.
...

Reference to frequent overhaul of 76 mm guns: It means that Navy wants 30mm installations in addition to the 76 mm, to reduce the firing required. This is perplexing as in any case we are not firing these guns in war, only for practice - which will be required in any case. Plus we have AK-630 mounts on most ships. What gives?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Nov 2015 23:53

>>NEW DELHI — Italian company Oto Melara will not be permitted to participate in a $400 million global tender issued recently by the Indian Navy for 110 30mm naval guns because of an ongoing probe into charges of corruption against its parent company, Finmeccanica, a source in the Ministry of Defence (MoD) said.

Another Navy official said Oto Melara's participation would have been preferred because India is already using 76mm naval guns license-produced by BHEL under license from the Italian company, and Oto Melara's gun technology is "superior."

All because one stupid Siachen giveaway gent's "relatives" decided to dip his fingers into the pie..

The Indian decision put on hold a long-pending deal worth $300 million for the purchase of 98 Black Shark heavyweight torpedoes, manufactured by Finmeccanica's Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subacquei (WASS) and urgently required for the six French-designed Scorpene submarines being built for the Indian Navy at state-owned Mazagon Docks in Mumbai.

Here we should just go for the Atlas Sea Hake and call it a day.
https://www.atlas-elektronik.com/what-w ... aker-mod4/
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... 40-km.html

srai · Post by **srai** » 16 Nov 2015 04:12

^^^

Couldn't indigenous Takshak submarine-launched torpedo be integrated? I forget why that won't be possible ... other than taking x amount of time to get it integrated with Scorpene SSK. So an interim is required but a lesser number of imported ones could be made to do with. How about the torpedo used on Type-1500 Shishumar class--Atlas Elektronik AEG SUT-66 Mod-1 (64 units in service)? There are upgrades planned for them. I heard that could be used on Scorpene (but may require integration time as well). Atlas Elektronik was one of the original competitors for supplying heavyweight torpedoes (SeaHake). Is Black Shark torpedo the only one that comes pre-integrated with Scorpene CMS?

After Takshak, Varunastra and Shakti could be integrated. IMO, no more need for torpedo imports--that is beyond a limited numbers for an interim one. Few more SUT-66 could be sufficient to tide things over until indigenous ones are integrated.

For India, it would be wise to instill Plan B for all major defense deals, especially with all the corruption/blacklisting and price escalations that go on. Rather than waiting and waiting for Blackshark torpedoes hoping that blacklisting doesn't apply to it, some effort could have gone in to integrate second torpedo type (preferably existing one in inventory like SUT-66) on to the Scorpene. Now even if Finmeccanica is cleared for this deal, Kalvari will have to wait for x amount of time for the torpedoes to arrive. Single vendor monopoly (and another "emergency"-type situation) that will likely escalate the costs.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 16 Nov 2015 04:29

TT aboard INS Astradharini

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Nov 2015 10:04

BRF Bombaywallahs/Mumbaikars take advantage of the Navy Day celebs and visit the Delhi and tarkash.
It is now 15 years since I organized the first official BRF visit to the Western Fleet warships and subs. perhaps Kapil and Kersi could do the honours again.
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-in ... ic-2145021
Indian Navy to open warships' doors to public
Saturday, 14 November 2015 -

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 16 Nov 2015 17:54

Thanks, Aditya, for the complete story on MV Suez. I did not know Pakistanis had collected the money, or there were mercenaries involved. No wonder they were not happy with INS Godavari gatecrashing their party. Fortunately, Godavari CO kept his cool.

Ramming causes structural damage to all ships involved. Like in our cars, you cannot dent another car without denting your own.

The Somali piracy affair is quite messy, with vested interests, terrorists, and trigger happy navies all around.

INS Tabar blasted a Thai ocean trawler being used as a pirate mother ship. The pirate trawler fired RPGs and Tabar responded with its 100 mm that cut the story short. Unfortunately, INS Tabar did not know the fishing crew were imprisoned onboard. One was confirmed dead. One Cambodian was found drifting alive after 6 days. Other 14 of the crew of 16 were missing.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 757449.cms
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20081127/main4.htm
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/afric ... ef=24hours
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7749245.stm

Thanks for your encouragement to write more. I barely get time after work and family commitments. Maybe once I retire and the kids are off on their own, then I could pen something.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 16 Nov 2015 18:00

srai wrote:Couldn't indigenous Takshak submarine-launched torpedo be integrated? I forget why that won't be possible ... other than taking x amount of time to get it integrated with Scorpene SSK.

Srai, I had replied to you in Page 42 of this forum

tsarkar wrote:
srai wrote:At the rate Black Shark torpedoes acquisition is going, DRDO's Varunastra HWT might be ready by then.
Western 533 mm TT and torpedoes are shorter in length than Russian 533 mm TT & torpedoes. All DRDO torpedoes under development are at Russian sizes. Wont fit Kalvari or Shalki but will arm Arihant, Chakra & Sindhu's.

srai wrote:After Takshak, Varunastra and Shakti could be integrated. IMO, no more need for torpedo imports--that is beyond a limited numbers for an interim one. Few more SUT-66 could be sufficient to tide things over until indigenous ones are integrated.

Presently, only ship launched 324 mm TAL is in production. Ship launched Varunastra is ready for production. Takshak is under development and Shakti has just progressed from conceptual stage.

Also, given how torpedoes are densely packed, modifying the length of Takshak or Shakti to fit the smaller tubes of Type 1500 or Kalvari is impossible. New torpedoes will need to be designed & developed for them from scratch.

Integrating with Fire Control is simpler. Provided source codes have been ToT-ed.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 16 Nov 2015 18:24

Correction to my previous post that had outdated information.

As per 2014 CAG report, Takshak & Shakti projects did not progress

http://www.saiindia.gov.in/english/home ... Chap_6.pdf

srai · Post by **srai** » 16 Nov 2015 19:00

^^^

Good find tsarkar.

It seems there were quite a bit of changing requirements and disagreement on achievements between the IN and DRDO. From the DRDO's perspective, they felt they completed Takshak and Shaki TD. Both programs they gained knowledge and completed best they could under changing user requirements and technologies. On the other hand, the IN felt Takshak was obsolete and the Shakti TD was not demonstrated to their content. Both programs "closed" (DRDO seems to keep its program running though to continue to build its knowledge base) without orders.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Nov 2015 19:47

>>Both programs "closed" (DRDO seems to keep its program running though to continue to build its knowledge base) without orders.

I wish this were the case, but its not always done since CAG constantly criticizes them.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Nov 2015 11:23

If the desi fish do not match existing firang fish,forget about more advanced torpedoes,then what's the point? Is this yet another case of "more talk than walk" from the DRDO? One cannot accuse the IN of sabotaging indigenous efforts.It is the only service that has gone the whole hog in maximizing indigenisation with its own naval design team. Weapon systems and sensors are the only areas where it is yet to succeed,as these are designed and developed by the DRDO/DPSUs.

The 30mm main armament on many of the smaller IN and CG vessels was an ingenious development from the BMP-1 turret if I am right.This was being made locally under licence from Russia.I don't understand what the problem is,upgunning these smaller vessels with a new more capable 30mm gun ,or problems with the Italian 3' gun on the FFGs and DDGs. ideally for these smaller vessels a gun/missile system like the lightweight Russian systemsdeveloped from the Kashtan/Kortik/Palma systems.There is even the Sosna system for smaller craft.Full details in the link.

http://defense-update.com/products/s/Sosna-R.htm

SOSNA-R

Air defense System /

For protection of smaller missile boats and corvettes against air attacks, Russia is offering the new Palma turret, which incorporates the same close-in air defense system used with the Tunguska (SA-19 Grison). Palma uses eight SOSNA-R missiles and two 30mm six-barrel AO-18KD gatling guns, which have a cyclic rate of fire of 10,000 rounds per minute. Each gun is provided with 1,500 ready-use rounds. Palma provides fully automatic close-in protection for naval ships and, unlike most Russian systems, uses combined input from radar, laser and IR systems, reportedly making it immune to electronic countermeasures.
The SOSNA-R 9M337 (SA-24) hyper-velocity beam rider missile is a two-stage missile designed for interception of fired wing aircraft and helicopters, as well as guided weapons and cruise missiles. This missile type is also capable of engaging light armored vehicles. The missile uses radar-guidance for boost phase, transitioning to laser beam guidance for mid-course corrections and the terminal phase. The 28 kg missile can sustain maximum dynamic loads of 40Gs, cruises at a speed of 570 m/sec and has a top speed of 920 m/sec. The missile is equipped with a fragmentation charge activated at close proximity flyby, or a rod penetrator, which is used when a direct hit can be achieved. The missile uses a selective proximity/impact fuse with continuous circular pattern scan and adaptive burst rate in order to support both kill mechanisms. SOSNA-R missiles are designed to engage targets at ranges of 1 – 10 km and altitudes of 6 – 15,000 feet.

PS:Some good news. Media reports (Hindu).The B-8 LR naval SAM will be tested shortly from the INS Kol. The missile is meant to replace the B-1s in service.The JV between India and Israel is running 4 years late due to "tech difficulties".DRDO delays supposed to be the reason says the other side. The short ramged Maitri missile is also overdue,sanctioned way back in 2007 another JV with MBDA but it did not arrive as it "clashed with the Akash programme"!

I've never heard such bull in my life.Are we incapable or developing several types of missile simultaneously? It is now almost 2016,9 years on.Surely the parameters drawn up of the SR-SAM ,which is yet to arrive will be obsolete by now,or will the goalposts be continually shifted until it arrives?

IN warships must have reliable layered air defence systems.As someone said in another post I think,there must be alternatives,"Plan B" readily available in case the first option fails. The absence of this is affecting acquisitions across the board from the MMRCA to missiles. The Paki navy has just successfully tested its anti-ship missiles in the Arabian Sea.It possesses both Harpoons,French Exocets and Chinese anti-ship missiles that cannot be sniffed at.

If the B-8 tests are successful,why can't they be installed straight away on the Vik-A carrier? This is the most important vessel in the IN's fleet and at the moment lacks any kind of SAM/anti-missile system. Earlier reports said that the B-1s would be refitted from a G class FFG being pensioned off.It makes little sense.That system could be used on a smaller warship. The more capable B-8 should first be used on the most valuable warship in the fleet.

sum · Post by **sum** » 19 Nov 2015 13:18

Were so many details about the ABM ship posted earlier?

Navy set to reveal the secret Radar ship by end of this year

Indian Navy all set to reveal the secret Radar ship specially designed to track long range ballistic missiles and air borne targets. The Project almost finished now and set to be floated into the sea by this fall. Indian Navy crews will run the ship while DRDO and some other scientists will operate the ship. Countries like US, Russia China already have such ships in their inventory which is a major part of the Ballistic missile interception program.

The ship was built by the Hindustan Shipyard limited in Visakhapatnam, The ships keel was laid on June 2014 as a project completion date set by December this year. Same like INS Arianth the Radar ship also monitored and funded by the Prime ministers office. The Ship will further boost India's anti ballistic missile shield, by providing exact information about the enemy missiles even at the longer range and higher altitude for mid course Interception.

The Ship houses two AESA radars, another set of telemetry scanners and associated systems. The Ship houses a large X Band AESA for long range target tracking and surveillance, Usually most of the X band AESA having range of more than 2000 kilometers for steady tracking. The reason behind adding the AESA in the ship is, it can be moved easily, due to earth's curvature, fixed land based Radar's lacks range and reliability. Since Ballistic missiles fly with the Earth's rotation to meet the target in short time.

The new X band AESA comes with state of art gallium nitrite technology, The GaN based T/R Modules requires less power to operate and highly reliable, optimized smaller in size and longer operational life. The 360 degree rotating heavy AESA is the Ships can provide clear information about incoming enemy threats even at longer range. The X band transmit and receive the data at the frequency level of 8.0 GHz to 12 GHz band.

Another is a S Band Radar, Which also provide search and tracking in another frequency range, Most nations uses the S Band to track very fast moving cruise missiles, and low flying sea skimmers. Most of the Missiles navigates very smart to escape from enemy Radar's. The S band AESA can track even those highly maneuvering missiles. Some of the Chinese cruise missiles has range of more than 1000 kilometers even they were nuke capable missiles. The latest Kolkata's MF STAR can track targets upto some 300 kilometers only.

Both S and X band can track all kind of airborne targets even flying at the range of some 2000 Kilometers. The ship also can provide target information's to the nearby ships about the incoming threats. The Ship can guide the land based PAD/AAD missiles to hit the ballistic missile targets at the mid course mostly if failed then terminal phase, Terminal passe can increase the interception probability of the missile if the mid course interception was failed.

The Ship possibly add one more Radar to find Low observable targets. It's reported that UHF radar's can able to track low observable targets like semi stealth fighter jets and stealth UAV's. However the UHF's Tracking range is some 500 kilometer or less. The DRDO's Radar ship can add the UHF for additional supports. However it's still not confirmed

Other systems like Telemetry scanners used for target acquisition and classification. which transmit and receive target information's from Tracking radar and classifies it into the mission computers. Like Fighter jets or Cruise missiles, Mostly telemetry used for spying purpose to receive information's from enemy activities. which gives communication supports to covert military agents for secure transmissions.

The Ship is something bigger. The actual length is some 175 meters and displacement of more than 10,000 tons as described by the ship designer Vik Sandvik. The ship also carry a Helicopter for support missions. However the ship will not carry any weapon systems onboard. Usually one or two EO based CIWS used for self defense. The Ship officially called as Missile Range Instrumentation Ship.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Nov 2015 14:00

V.impressive ,the speed with which the vessel has been built. There was debate some time ago about the purpose of the vessel,with the same conclusion,that it was meant for missile tests. However,that it was also part off an ABM system may have escaped notice. Ideally,one would need more vessels like this.At least two-4 ,one on each seaboard,one in the south to look after anything that might be "thrown" from DG and another one in the A&N islands. Useful for downrange tracking of our missile tests.We also need more AGI ships which could be permanently stationed by rotation in the ICS ( Indo-China Sea).

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Nov 2015 16:26

In the same site as the one about the radar ship we have this audacious claim from the PLAN. It underscores the view shared by many that the IN/MOD must give highest priority to augmenting the IN's sub asap.

6/08/2015 China audacious claims of imposing a naval blockade with just ten Submarines
A leading Taiwanese based newspaper has published a report in which the Chinese PLAN officials have made audacious claims of imposing a complete naval blockade on India with just ten submarines. The very same paper had reported a PLAN source claiming a single PLAN nuclear attack submarine could sink India’s CBG headed by INS Vikramaditya.

A blockade can be a game changer in war, during the 1971 Bangladesh liberation war India had imposed a naval blockade on West Pakistan which proved a major breakthrough in the war. A blockade would simply mean blocking all the shipping lanes to a country which will eventually choke the country with it lacking any reinforcements. India has a very long coast which stretches almost 7500 km, a blockade to be enforced on India is extremely demanding. Do completely block the Indian shores will have to field more than ten of its modern nuclear submarines. Let alone Indian navy operates more than 80 major ships along the Western and Eastern sea boards.

A blockade is something that can be achieved on a specified port or area but blocking the whole coast is something next to impossible. Indian navy operates harbours along the sea boards. Chinese dreams of Indian naval ships always in ports making it easy to blocked is something far from reality.

China at the same time is not having enough number of nuclear attack submarines unlike the Americans and Russians. China is believed to be operating around five nuclear attack submarines, which can be instrumental in putting a blockade on the Vietnam or Taiwan Navy.

unlike Nuclear attack Boats, the Diesel electrics has many limits, like diesel shortage, oxygen shortage which forces the Sub should surface once in some 500km Travels. also it's endurance limit the Boat by some thousand Kilometers. makes them only good for securing and patrolling Chinese Economic zone only. Not for operating beyond some 1000 kilometers. Even Chinese too knows that.

the Nuclear attack boats can sail faster upto thirty knots in submerged mode, can travel some 5000 kilometers without surfacing, travel deep in the water, lets say some 400meters or 1200 feet, allows them to come nearby Indian Shores, But India have less submarines, which can even not worth of securing our Economic zones. But currently India have Projects going on to beef up the Maritime Patrol and combat duties using underwater platforms.

India have a Nuclear Attack Submarine Akula Leased from Russia, which is More modern than the existing Chinese Nuclear attack submarine, more Silent when Running deep under water compared to other Chinese SSN. China Claimed it's modern Type 093 SSN is less sound than the Russian Akula class, and American Los Angeles Class Attack Submarine, But US Navy claimed it is not a Quite submarine but makes more noise than the First Generation Russian Attack submarine which was entered in 1980's. Also the Chinese claimed the New Type 093 can dive upto the depth of 400meters, but no confirmations on this, where newest Russian Submarines can dive upto some 500 meters.

The Chinese have only two active Type 093 class Submarines, where three more will be inducted soon, but they have some three Type 091 Han Class Attack submarines which was entered service in early 1990's. The Indian Navy successfully snooped the Han class submarine many times outside Indian Shores, also watches it;'s movement, Earlier Navy alerted the Indian Government even before the Han Class Submarine docked in the Sri Lankan Port.

Also earlier once in 2009 near Yemeni coast a Indian Kilo class Submarines successfully snooped the Han Class SSN who is in anti piracy mission, but Two other Chinese Destroyers nearby the area found the Indian Sub, which forced the Indian Submarine to Surface, but no other incidents happens, Chinese warned the Submarine to Surface and readying their ASW Helicopters to drop Torpedo's to destroy the Unknown Submarine, the Chinese Identified it's a Indian Boat only after it was surfaced.

So almost India have each and every available informations to trace the Chinese Submarines, India lacks in Submarines but not in anti submarine utility's. where china lacks so. India operates less to Long Range ASW aircrafts to, finest Anti Submarine Ships like Kamorta, where Navy plans to build eight new Komarta Class ASW ships, where one in Operational other three in Sea Trails.

The Indian Navy's ASW Air asserts or the second biggest in the world, after America Indian operates good number of asw aircrafts, all of them can fire Torpedos' and drop sonoubouys to detect submarines deep in the water, Platforms like P 8 and Tu 142 MKE can travel upto some 6000 kilometers and do missions. even the P8 can launch four Harpoon Anti Shipping Missiles too, and both of them can launch Torpedo's and Depth Charges.

The IL 38 SD and Do 228 also act as a Medium to short range ASW. both can able to drop Torpedo's and Depth Charges. makes very tough to enemy Sub merged asserts who tries enter Indian waters.

The China has only one option, It can blockade the Indian Naval bases, for that they need to be submerged more than 500 meters, never ever sub surface to breath, It can give easy chances to Indian ASW asserts to Kill you. and comes to Eastern Naval Command and Kill some Tug Boats. It's clear China would not find any other Ships in the Base, all other ships maybe in Patrol.

and within a moments a large column of Indian ASW planes comes for Hunt missions, and they even won't warn you, but they drop all available Torpedo's and Depth Charges against the Chinese SSN's. that's why it's clear China won't like to do some Suicidal mission like this