The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

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Lalmohan
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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby Lalmohan » 25 Nov 2015 19:35

ulan saheb - 2000 dead in kobane alone

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby Satya_anveshi » 25 Nov 2015 19:38

Russian FM Lavrov's Address Following Downing of Su-24 by Turkey (VIDEO)
http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151125/ ... -su24.html


"I reminded my Turkish colleague of this statement and he could not reply to this either, just repeating that they did not know what kind of aircraft this was," the Russian minister said.
The minister also wondered if Turkey has coordinated its actions with the United States.

"I wonder whether Turkey consulted the US before downing any jet in the Syrian airspace," he said.

Russia is still expecting apology from Turkey over the downing of the Russian Su-24 bomber jet over Syria.

"We're not going to wage a war against Turkey," Sergei Lavrov said answering a question from a journalist.


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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby deejay » 25 Nov 2015 19:48

Meanwhile...

Turkey intensifies aerial border security amid Russian crisis

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-intensifies-aerial-border-security-amid-russian-crisis.aspx?pageID=238&nID=91651&NewsCatID=352

The Turkish Air Force has increased the number of warplanes patrolling the Turkish-Syrian border to 18 after the downing of a Russian jetfighter by a Turkish F-16 on Nov. 24 triggered unprecedented tension between Ankara and Moscow.

The intensification of the aerial protection of Turkish airspace was announced by a routine daily statement of the Chief of General Staff that declared that the Turkish-Syrian border was now being patrolled by 18 F-16s.

Turkey has always patrolled its airspace with F-16s, but the number of warplanes on duty was no more than 12, even during early October when Russian jetfighters first violated Turkish airspace.

The move follows Russia’s statement that it would continue its military operations near the Turkish border and that it would deploy high-tech air defense systems to Syrian bases.

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby Austin » 25 Nov 2015 19:59

Turkish jets gave us no warning before shooting’ – rescued pilot of downed Russian Su-24

https://www.rt.com/news/323431-saved-pi ... kish-su24/
The navigator of the Russian Su-24 shot down by a Turkish fighter jet on Tuesday insists that his plane did not cross into Turkey’s airspace, and says he was given no visual or radio warning before being fired at.

“It’s impossible that we violated their airspace even for a second,” Konstantin Murakhtin told Russia’s Rossiya 1 channel. “We were flying at an altitude of 6,000 meters in completely clear weather, and I had total control of our flight path throughout.”


As well as denying Ankara’s assertions that the plane was in Turkey’s airspace, Murakhtin also refuted Turkish officials’ claims that the pilots were warned repeatedly.

“In actual fact there were no warnings at all. Neither through the radio, nor visually, so we did not at any point adjust our course. You need to understand the difference in speed between a tactical bomber like a Su-24, and that of the F16. If they wanted to warn us, they could have sat on our wing,” said Murakhtin, who is currently recuperating at Russia’s airbase in Latakia, northern Syria.

“As it was, the missile hit the back of our plane out of nowhere. We didn’t even have time to make an evasive maneuver.”

The 39-year-old airman, who won the Top Navigator award at Russia’s biggest military flying competition last year, says he will ask to return to front-line service as soon as he is declared fit.

“I must ‘pay back’ the debt for my captain,” said Murakhtin.

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby Rahul M » 25 Nov 2015 20:03

the almost hyperactive reaction by turkey to a russian fighter incursion (if that) shows how past history continues to throw its shadow on current events. as mark twain said, history may not repeat but it does rhyme. we would do well to remember that past history and culture have far stronger influences on the course of modern times than we give them credit for.

russian empire and ottoman empire, the forerunners of modern russia and turkey have a 5 century old history of repeated, bitter wars. many of the modern russian navy ships are named after admirals who fought the turks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... rkish_wars
12 wars in less than 500 years, with the last one just over a century ago.

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby Philip » 25 Nov 2015 20:06

Remember the shooting down by the Soviets of the KAL-007 airliner decades ago? The airliner deviated from the regular course,taking it over Sakhalin island(?) ,supposedly warned by Russian fighters. Only when it was about to leave Soviet airspace was finally shot down.It was later revealed that the Soviets were planning an important missile test at that time and when the airliner overflew Soviet airspace/territory,their air-defence systems lit up which were captured by a spy plane flying secretly above the airliner.Here are some details about that incident,worth looking at which give some clues as to this one.From Wiki.

The aircrew had an unusually high ratio of crew to passengers, as six deadheading crew were on board.[14] *(SoKo aircrew had a high % of members from its air force).

The Soviets contended former U.S. president Richard Nixon was to have been seated next to Larry McDonald on KAL 007 but that the CIA warned him not to go, according to the New York Post and Telegraph Agency of the Soviet Union (TASS); this was denied by Nixon.[16]


KAL 007 continued its journey, ever increasing its deviation—60 nautical miles (110 km) off course at waypoint NABIE, 100 nautical miles (190 km) off course at waypoint NUKKS, and 160 nautical miles (300 km) off course at waypoint NEEVA—until it reached the Kamchatka Peninsula.[9]


*(why was it not warned by the US military or civil way stations? Such a huge deviation would've definitely been spotted) Look at what was happening on the other side.
(Units of the Soviet Air Defence Forces that had been tracking the South Korean aircraft for more than an hour while it entered and left Soviet airspace now classified the aircraft as a military target when it reentered their airspace over Sakhalin.)


Aircraft from USS Midway and USS Enterprise repeatedly overflew Soviet military installations in the disputed Kuril Islands during FleetEx '83,[29] resulting in the dismissal or reprimanding of Soviet military officials who had been unable to shoot them down.[30] On the Soviet side, RYAN was expanded.[30] Lastly, there was a heightened alert around the Kamchatka Peninsula at the time KAL 007 was in the vicinity, because of a Soviet missile test that was scheduled for the same day. A United States Air Force Boeing RC-135 reconnaissance aircraft flying in the area was monitoring the missile test off the peninsula.[31]


General Secretary Yuri Andropov and Minister of Defence Dmitriy Ustinov) viewed these actions as bellicose and destabilizing; they were deeply suspicious of US President Ronald Reagan's intentions and openly fearful he was planning a pre-emptive nuclear strike against the Soviet Union. These fears culminated in RYAN, the code name for a secret intelligence-gathering program initiated by Andropov to detect a potential nuclear sneak attack which he believed Reagan was plotting.


The shooting:
The pilot of the lead Su-15 fighter fired warning shots, but recalled later in 1991, "I fired four bursts, more than 200 rounds. For all the good it did. After all, I was loaded with armor piercing shells, not incendiary shells. It's doubtful whether anyone could see them."[35]

At this point, KAL 007 contacted Tokyo Area Control Center, requesting clearance to ascend to a higher flight level for reasons of fuel economy; the request was granted, so the Boeing started to climb, gradually slowing as it exchanged speed for altitude. The decrease in speed caused the pursuing fighter to overshoot the Boeing, an action that was interpreted by the Soviet pilot as an evasive maneuver


Contrary to official Soviet statements at the time, he (the pilot) recalled telling ground controllers that there were "blinking lights".[37] He continued, saying that "I saw two rows of windows and knew that this was a Boeing. I knew this was a civilian plane. But for me this meant nothing. It is easy to turn a civilian type of plane into one for military use."[


They [KAL 007] quickly lowered their speed. They were flying at 400 km/h (249 mph). My speed was more than 400. I was simply unable to fly slower. In my opinion, the intruder's intentions were plain. If I did not want to go into a stall, I would be forced to overshoot them. That's exactly what happened. We had already flown over the island [Sakhalin]. It is narrow at that point, the target was about to get away... Then the ground [controller] gave the command: "Destroy the target...!" That was easy to say. But how? With shells? I had already expended 243 rounds. Ram it? I had always thought of that as poor taste. Ramming is the last resort. Just in case, I had already completed my turn and was coming down on top of him. Then, I had an idea. I dropped below him about 2,000 meters... afterburners. Switched on the missiles and brought the nose up sharply. Success! I have a lock on.[38]


In the Cold War context of Operation RYAN, the Strategic Defence Initiative, Pershing II missile deployment in Europe, and the upcoming Exercise Able Archer, the Soviet Government perceived the incident with the South Korean airliner to be a portent of war.[86] The Soviet hierarchy took the official line that KAL Flight 007 was on a spy mission, as it "flew deep into Soviet territory for several hundred kilometres, without responding to signals and disobeying the orders of interceptor fighter planes".[3] They claimed its purpose was to probe the air defences of highly sensitive Soviet military sites in the Kamchatka Peninsula and Sakhalin Island.[3] The Soviet government expressed regret over the loss of life, but offered no apology and did not respond to demands for compensation.[92] Instead, the USSR blamed the CIA for this "criminal, provocative act".[3]


PS:So much for the indignation at allegedly violating Turkish air space for "17 seconds" ,when during the Cold War,the US repeatedly" violated Soviet air space from the facts above!

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby Singha » 25 Nov 2015 20:15

the SU24 does not have A2A radar. it has a Orion nav/attack radar and a Relyef TFR. it would surely have a rwr to warn of being painted by X-band fighter or missile radars.

Image

I imagine a GCI radar or peace-eagle awacs guided the radar silent F-16s silently to their shooting position . they also have aim9x which can be launched in LOBL mode.

the crew were focussed on targets miles ahead and probably did not even see the ambushers. they had no a2a radar anyway to detect perpendicular bogies.

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby Singha » 25 Nov 2015 20:18

Lalmohan wrote:ulan saheb - 2000 dead in kobane alone


western propaganda imo. to oversize their feeble efforts so far.

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby Lalmohan » 25 Nov 2015 20:33

I e heard the number quoted in more than one source, msn home page has a good write up on daesh which repeats this figure

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby JTull » 25 Nov 2015 20:36


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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby habal » 25 Nov 2015 20:36

56m56 minutes ago
Hassan Ridha ‏@sayed_ridha
Loy. Source: Rescue team that rescued downed #RuAF pilot consisted of 18 #SAA SF & 6 fighters from #Hezbollah

Peto Lucem ‏@PetoLucem
#Russia ready to consider steps to close Turkish-Syrian border — Lavrov http://tass.ru/en/politics/839245

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby Satya_anveshi » 25 Nov 2015 20:40

vijaykarthik wrote:France attack? Jordan attacks? KSA attacks [In shia regions?], I think they hit UAE too. Or someplace. I cant recall exactly now. They have attacked. Its not as if they haven't. But yes, they surely have their gulf and west sponsors.


Let's just say that theorists tearists are disputing that.

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby deejay » 25 Nov 2015 20:42

Ivan Sidorenko ‏@IvanSidorenko1 now9 hours ago
#Syria #Russia #RuAF Terrorist Turkmen Commander @CelikAlparslan is a Turkish Citizen & Grey Wolves member


CelikAlparslan is a Turk and not a Turkmen and he claims killing the Russian pilot. Who are the Grey Wolves of Turkey?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Wolves_(organization)

The Grey Wolves (Turkish: Bozkurtlar), officially known as Ülkü Ocakları (Turkish: [ylky od͡ʒaklaɾɯ]; "Idealist Clubs" or "Idealist Hearths"), is a Turkish nationalist organization. It is variously described as ultra-nationalist or neo-fascist. Formally a youth organization with close links to the Nationalist Movement Party (MHP), it has been described as MHP's "militant youth arm", "unofficial militant arm", and "paramilitary and terrorist wing". Established by Colonel Alparslan Türkeş in the 1960s, it was the main nationalist force during the political violence in 1976–80 in Turkey. During this period, the organization became a "death squad" engaged in "street killings and gunbattles". According to authorities, 220 of its members carried out 694 murders of left-wing and liberal activists and intellectuals. Attacks on university students were commonplace. They killed hundreds of Alevis in the Maraş massacre of 1978 and are alleged to have been behind the Taksim Square massacre of 1977.The masterminds behind the attempt on Pope John Paul II's life in 1981 by Grey Wolves member Mehmet Ali Ağca were not identified and the organization's role remains unclear.Due to these attacks the Grey Wolves have been described by scholars and journalists as a terrorist organization.]
A staunchly Pan-Turkist organization, in the early 1990s the Grey Wolves extended their area of operation into the post-Soviet states with Turkic and Muslim populations. Up to thousands of its members fought in the Nagorno-Karabakh War on the Azerbaijani side, and the First and Second Chechen Wars on the Chechen side. After an unsuccessful attempt to seize power in Azerbaijan in 1995, they were banned in that country. Kazakhstan in 2005 also banned the organization, classifying it as a terrorist organization.

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby Philip » 25 Nov 2015 20:52

Western accounts of ISIS casualties remind one of the infamous US body counts in Vietnam.Grossly exaggerated.They have to esperately try and win the propaganda war ,as if they are doing better than Russia in exterminating ISIS. So a huge body count will be announced,while the ISIS fighters temporarily slip away to the lands of their chief sponsors or remove their black uniforms and mingle with the locals,also claiming to be members of the anti-Assad forces! Just wait and watch how the anti-Assad "rebels" suddenly get massive recruits!

Below is a piece that shows the flawed doctrine of the Pentagon and its "body count" philosophy,that has seen it retreat and retreat and retreat from the battlefield during the last 50 years!

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2002/03/pau ... -pentagon/
The Body Count and the Pentagon
By Paul Clark

George
Patton once declared that, “There is only one unchanging principle
of warfare: that is, to inflict the greatest amount of death and
destruction upon the enemy in the least time possible.” This principle
has been central to US military strategy since Grant and Sherman,
and remains so today. But is it true? Is it a valid strategy?

There
are obvious times when it is not true. For example, if Washington
at Yorktown had slaughtered the army of Cornwallis instead of capturing
it, the war might have continued for several more years, and might
have convinced England to pour every available resource into defeating
the colonists.

One
finds no trace of such a “death and destruction strategy” in any
of the great military theorists like Clauswitz or Jomini; nor in
Sun Tzu who cautioned against using excessive force because one
must live with one's neighbors after they are defeated.


Unfortunately
for the Pentagon, the “body count” strategy (as it came to be known
in Vietnam) is both militarily and morally suspect. After all, if
one can defeat the enemy with few casualties, or defeat the enemy
with tremendous casualties, all else being equal, one would morally
prefer the strategy which results in fewer casualties.

The
body count strategy is also militarily suspect. This is perhaps
best illustrated by two non-fiction war movies just released, “Black
Hawk Down” and “We Were Soldiers.” “Black Hawk Down” was micro-managed
by the Pentagon which insisted on approving even the smallest details
in exchange for its cooperation in making the movie, and the Pentagon
influence is unmistakable. The message of the movie (and which has
been noted by numerous commentators) is that the Somali battle was
not a defeat for the US, but a victory, because the US killed more
than a thousand Somalis in exchange for a handful of Americans.

“We
Were Soldiers” however, demonstrates the futility of such a benchmark
of success: how many of them did we kill? “We Were Soldiers” openly
questions the body count strategy. The US went into a strategically
worthless area in search of killing as many of the enemy as possible.
A lot of US soldiers died, and lot of North Vietnamese soldiers
died, and then the US abandoned the battlefield.
:rotfl: As the movie says,
the Army declared it a victory because more of them died; but what
was the point of it all? Did the US “victory” at Ia Drang get us
any closer to ultimate success, or was it just a lot of pointless
death and destruction?

One
could ask the same about the battle in “Black Hawk Down.” Did it
accomplish anything, or was it just a lot of pointless death and
destruction?

Another
big difference between the two movies is their treatment of the
enemy. “We Were Soldiers” – a thoroughly moral movie – gives a clear
sense of the humanity of the enemy. These people dying are real
people with sweethearts, wives and children just like us. Their
deaths may be necessary, but it is tragic nonetheless. It is in
the best Western tradition of Homer who tells us in the words of
Odysseus, “It is no piety to rejoice over the dead.”

“Black
Hawk Down,” however, has almost no vision of who the enemy was,
or why they were fighting, but even worse, no sense of their humanity.
An American death is a tragedy; 1000 Somali deaths is simply a statistic.
They die anonymous and unmourned.

Unfortunately,
this Pentagon “body count” strategy is alive and working in Afghanistan
today, with tragic results. The Pentagon has done its best to “inflict
the greatest amount of death and destruction in the shortest amount
of time,” and if that entails unnecessarily high civilian casualties
(by a policy which often seems be “shoot first and ask questions
later”), then, as long as Americans are not dying no one seems to
care. The US has on several confirmed occasions attacked friendly
forces or civilians they thought were Taliban, but has refused to
acknowledge that any mistakes were made, or that perhaps the US
ought to be more careful to make sure to find out who it is killing
before it starts shooting.

The
body count strategy was most obviously espoused by the Pentagon
when 8 US servicemen were killed in fighting the first week of March.
Pentagon spokesman John Rosa declared such casualties were not a
defeat because the US killed a lot more Afghans. Does that make
it a victory?

As
in “We Were Soldiers” they killed some of us, we killed a lot more
of them on some strategically worthless mountain somewhere. It is
yet to be seen if that amounts to a victory or is just a lot of
pointless death and destruction. As in Vietnam, ultimate success
relies on the US gaining the support of the civilian population
and tribal leaders. Search and destroy missions and high level bombing
– which has on numerous occasions ended up killing innocents or
US allies – does nothing to gain the support of the people. In fact,
it does the opposite. Some recent reports from Afghanistan say some
leaders have turned against the US after they were mistakenly targeted
or arrested (and allegedly mistreated).

The
US military has always been a lot better at destruction than pacification.
For example, is it really necessary to try to track down every tiny
group of Taliban soldiers hiding in the mountains and kill them?
Could the US be more effective by declaring an amnesty for former
Taliban leaders? Several attempts to negotiate surrenders have been
scuttled by the US, which has insisted on no amnesty. This policy
of “unconditional surrender,” and its assertion that all Taliban
leaders will be subject to trial for war crimes, has certainly encouraged
them to keep fighting.

There
is no way to know for certain, but had the US negotiated a surrender
with Mullah Omar some months ago, those 8 servicemen, and hundreds
of Afghans might be alive today.

The
US unconditional surrender policy and body count strategy in Afghanistan
risks higher casualties on all sides, and also risks continuing
to alienate a billion Moslems world wide. When the US military kills
someone (even someone like bin Laden), it creates a martyr. Militarily
and morally it is better to convince someone to surrender than to
create another martyr, another widow, and another orphan.

In
“We Were Soldiers” one of the main characters says that he joined
the Army to prevent people from becoming orphans, not to create
more. Every US Serviceman, and every American ought to see that
movie and consider that message very carefully. A lot of orphans
were made at the World Trade Center, and that was a tremendous tragedy.
The US military is tasked with preventing more people from becoming
orphans; that is the unchanging moral principle of warfare. Inflicting
the greatest amount of death and destruction is rarely the means
to that end.

a veteran of Desert Storm and also worked with the mujahedin in
Afghanistan. He holds a Ph.D. in philosophy, having written his
disseration on military ethics.


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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby rsingh » 25 Nov 2015 20:55

deejay wrote:Meanwhile...

Turkey intensifies aerial border security amid Russian crisis

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-intensifies-aerial-border-security-amid-russian-crisis.aspx?pageID=238&nID=91651&NewsCatID=352

The Turkish Air Force has increased the number of warplanes patrolling the Turkish-Syrian border to 18 after the downing of a Russian jetfighter by a Turkish F-16 on Nov. 24 triggered unprecedented tension between Ankara and Moscow.

The intensification of the aerial protection of Turkish airspace was announced by a routine daily statement of the Chief of General Staff that declared that the Turkish-Syrian border was now being patrolled by 18 F-16s.

Turkey has always patrolled its airspace with F-16s, but the number of warplanes on duty was no more than 12, even during early October when Russian jetfighters first violated Turkish airspace.

The move follows Russia’s statement that it would continue its military operations near the Turkish border and that it would deploy high-tech air defense systems to Syrian bases.


There were tweets about turkey grounding all air-force planes in order to deescalate.

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby deejay » 25 Nov 2015 20:56

Singha wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:ulan saheb - 2000 dead in kobane alone


western propaganda imo. to oversize their feeble efforts so far.


Wikipedia has a lot of separate entries on the Kobani siege page listing of ISIS and YPG fighters killed on various days of the conflict.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Koban%C3%AE

On 21 April 2015, the YPG and allied forces had recaptured territory up the M4 Highway, including the Sarrin grain silos, Septe, and the other neighboring villages, allowing YPG forces to advance further southward towards Sarrin.[13][267] The clashes around the Sarrin grain silos were reported to have killed at least 20 ISIL militants over the past two days.[71] This advance allowed the YPG to recapture nearly all of the territory that they had lost during ISIL's September 2014 offensive, except for a few dozen villages that ISIL had captured in the northwest Ar-Raqqah Province. By 21 April 2015, a total of 4,460 ISIL militants had been reportedly killed in the Kobanî Canton since 13 September 2014, according to Kurdish sources.[268] On 22 April, it was reported the Sarrin grain silos were still held by around 50 ISIL militants,[71] but a “near total” siege had been imposed on them.[269]

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby deejay » 25 Nov 2015 20:57

rsingh wrote:...

There were tweets about turkey grounding all air-force planes in order to deescalate.


I read those tweets but this news is contrary. Fog of info war as of now.

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby nirav » 25 Nov 2015 21:01

deejay wrote:
rsingh wrote:...

There were tweets about turkey grounding all air-force planes in order to deescalate.


I read those tweets but this news is contrary. Fog of info war as of now.


sounds more like a whatsapp forward.

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby habal » 25 Nov 2015 21:02

If turkey has awacs then russians have satellites, awacs, and ground radars that could spot the F16.

from net
NATO had told Russian Defense that the Turkey plane was only to do a photo reconnaissance of the area being attacked for "intelligence purposes only" (the LIE & TRAP) and that was why the SU 24 did not feel threatened by the presence of the Turkish planes. It was a PLANNED attack, with photographers placed beforehand in the place/position to take the video, yes, the killers wanted a record of the shoot down so they can feed their perverted fantasies afterwards, and all of this was a set up.


this is why stab in back !

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby Shreeman » 25 Nov 2015 21:10

deejay wrote:
rsingh wrote:...

There were tweets about turkey grounding all air-force planes in order to deescalate.


I read those tweets but this news is contrary. Fog of info war as of now.


The media defense and manipulation for turkey is strong and effective. They (the "west") have blanketed everything with russian hatred, NATO, article 5, cameron sending planes, blah blah. No one is bothered with facts. Paris off the news cycle. Russia hated some more. ISIL out of ideas and a tactical victory for erdogan.

Those F16s are richards waving in the air for more than the bakis. Syria is not a country any more. Libya is not. Iraq is not. Afg never was. Lebanon never will be. Wanna be friends?

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby member_29247 » 25 Nov 2015 21:13

So if IR seeking missiles were fired and an AWAC was operating in that area for zeroing the F16 instead of its own radar...

Did not the RuAf install EM spectrum monitoring in that area to listen or at least identity the AWACS and F16 data links?

If it was from AWACS to sat to F16 then it's virtually impossible to detect EM spectrum in operation in that area of action

In any case did not the RuAF aircraft for safety reason periodically drop flares to evade when operating close to Turkey border?

If it was well with in Syrian airspace, then why did not the RuAf ground radar detect the F16?

Why are we focused on Su fighter bombers to detect and evade all by themselves?

Why was the flight path of the fighter bombers not monitored at least when Su got close to Turkey borders?

Just some thinking

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby Lalmohan » 25 Nov 2015 21:19

stab in the back comment is key
they didn't expect any hostile actions

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby Philip » 25 Nov 2015 21:20

Early news reports said that a high-level Russian air force delegation had just visited Turkey and held talks about prevention of air incidents after the first few alleged violations of Turkish air space.The Russians also worked out similar arrangements with the US/West. That is why it mystifies analysts as to why the Russians should deliberately violate Turkish air space and get their aircraft shot down.

From Habal's post,the assertion by the Turks that their aircraft flying close to the border would not indulge in hostile activity was a deliberate damnable deception! True,the Russians also have several air surveillance capabilities,but they were perhaps never on line and the Russian aircraft did not use normal early warning devices,flares,etc.,because for one,there is no ISIS air force whatsoever-the Russians did not anticipate any hostile action against their aircraft from the air,thanks to the Turks' assurances but only from the ground. The Turkish F-16s crept up undetected behind the SU-24 and let go!

This was a diabolic conspiracy ,hatched by forces who do not want ISIS exterminated and are doing their best to see that there is no peaceful political solution agreed upon to end the Syrian conflict unless Assad is removed.Cui bono? We all know who benefits!

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby deejay » 25 Nov 2015 21:22

I am posting only those tweets with links to news sites:

Ald_A
‏@Ald_Aba
#Turkey is moving a large number of tanks and armored vehicles to the border with #Syira #AA @anadoluajansi http://v.aa.com.tr/481329


http://www.aa.com.tr/tr/turkiye/suriye-sinirinda-askeri-hareketlilik/481329

Translated in English using Google and edited for coherence:

Military activity on the border with Syria
Following the lowering of Turkish airspace by Russian warplanes violated a number of tanks and armored vehicles being shipped to troops on the Syrian border.

11/25/2015 Hatay, Turkey
Military activity on the border with Syria
related news

Military vehicles from the Yayladağı, moved troops to the border will be deployed.

Following the lowering of the tank Russian warplanes violating Turkish airspace and armored vehicles were shipped to troops on the Syrian border it was learned.

Moving tanks and military vehicles under safety measures to be deployed in the unity of the Syrian border.

Reporter: Halit Demir

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby TSJones » 25 Nov 2015 21:23

Hopefully, Putin will be sending more equipment and personnel to Syria.

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby habal » 25 Nov 2015 21:25

guys there is this article ..

basically russia has decomissioned all it ancient soviet early warning satellites ..

so they are effectively without nuke intercontinental ballistic missile early warning system uptil 2020.

they have just launched the first one a few days back. 5 more to go. 1 each year or something.

only then full coverage is possible.

unkil being the dastardly player it is, sees a window ... ???

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby Zynda » 25 Nov 2015 21:27

One of the Russian MOD video mentions that it was a heat seeking missile which brought down the Su-24M2. Probably AIM-9X Block 1. Turkey received a bunch of them back in 08.

The 24M2 carries L-082 Mak-UL MAWS (IR only). But apparently, it is of late 70s tech and its range is 5nm. May be the 9X motor contains measures to reduce its heat/UV signature and thus antiquated MAWS may be ineffective. So the statement by Russian pilot that they got no missile launch warning. The ECM suite & flares of Su-24M2 are quite antiquated as well.

I think it may not be uncommon for Turkish and Syrian/Russian fighters to maintain radar lock-ons as a show of force before this incident. Around a few weeks ago, Russian Su-30SMs maintained 5+ minutes of radar lock on Turkish F-16s. Probably thats why, if there was a radar lock on Su-24 yesterday, it wouldn't have brought in elevated alarm response from the pilots...

The AIM-9X has a max range of around 30 Kms (Wiki says 35 Kms). The speed of AIM-9 is around Mach 2.7 per wiki (approx 3200 Kph). So the missile takes around (30 x 3600)/3200 = 34 seconds to cover max range.

Assuming the Su-24 was travelling at 600 Kph, it takes 6 seconds for it cover 1Km (distance from the Turkish border where it was shot down) and it spent 17 seconds in Turkish airspace per the leaked UN memo. So that is 17+6 = 23 seconds.

So per my amateurish maths, the Turkish F-16 probably fired when the Su-24 was still in Syrian airspace. Way to go Turkey...

Do Pakis have Aim-9X. Question is how do we ensure that our MAWS (when they come online) and IR countermeasures are effective against the most modern weapons systems our adversaries can throw against us!

P.S: I am glad the 2nd pilot was rescued and is recuperating.
Last edited by Zynda on 25 Nov 2015 21:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby habal » 25 Nov 2015 21:30

it was an AIM 120C.

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby Zynda » 25 Nov 2015 21:47

habal wrote:it was an AIM 120C.


US DoD says that it was a heat seeking missile while one of the Russian MOD videos mentions the same. Let me try to look up the sources later on.

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby Singha » 25 Nov 2015 21:52

TSP has the AIM9M (version below 9X) and the AIM120C5 iirc(version below the C7 and two levels below D)
but their block52 F-solahs have the JHMCS helmet which can use the AIM9X immediately. and the radar can guide the later amraams too.

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby Satya_anveshi » 25 Nov 2015 21:53

Here is the interview of rescued pilot (every detail has already been posted before):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVzlFAyjsoc

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby Satya_anveshi » 25 Nov 2015 22:01

Footage of Syrian Army Rescuing Second Russian Pilot and Helicopter Crew From Salma Region
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umsp9wIjolY

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby Singha » 25 Nov 2015 22:14

looks like trucks bring out fuel and take back arms and medical supplies. food they grow or loot locally.

Cahida Dêrsim ‏@dilkocer 37m37 minutes ago
#Russian jets bombed 'moderate' Jabhat al-Nusra & Ahrar al-Sham positions in the region #Azaz, #Afrin (ANHA)

Cahida Dêrsim ‏@dilkocer 19m19 minutes ago
According to ANHA reports trucks who were carrying weapons from #Turkey to Nusra/Sham hit by the airstrikes

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby JE Menon » 25 Nov 2015 23:06

TSJones wrote:Hopefully, Putin will be sending more equipment and personnel to Syria.


They might, but not much. I don't know how well the Russians know the kind of conflict situation that the world is moving into, but they have some experience with the sort of thing that's coming. So do the Europeans, which is why you may note a distinct reticence among the key players - UK, France, Germany (in particular, not a a whisper out of them for some months now) and of course Italy and Spain. I mean, no major "strategic pronouncements" or ambitious world changing views. Just a strange wariness. Witness Israel's behaviour over recent developments. Same thing. It is not a new thing we are moving into, rather an old old thing with new weapons. I think they're beginning to grasp its outlines. America does not sense it yet, it is young still and full of blood. Distance will not be a meaningful barrier. And some countries are just sitting, watching. They know it too, from long before when even the Europeans played that game. Unsettling times ahead.

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby TSJones » 25 Nov 2015 23:29

^^^^

The Russians are bombing Turkey's "near abroad" and the Turk's don't like it. The Russians assumed Turkey would cower. That's not happening. They got history with the Rodina before. I predict that either somebody is going to back down or this will escalate. The "Pigeon From Hell" with all due apologies to Robert E Howard and also the Pretenders, will back Turkey. Or else NATO disintegrates. Nuclear arms or no nuclear arms.

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby A_Gupta » 25 Nov 2015 23:32

Kemal Ataturk was called "Grey Wolf".

In our neighborhood, Djinnah read Harold Courtenay's biography of Ataturk, "Gray Wolf: The Life of Kemal Ataturk" and was so taken by it, that Djinnah's daughter, Deena, nicknamed him Grey Wolf. Djinnah imagined himself to be the Ataturk of India.

Is the modern Turkish Grey Wolves associated with Ataturk's politics?

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby nirav » 25 Nov 2015 23:33

@TSJones: Nato countries already making noises about this being between Turkey and Russia.

I really dont see NATO picking a fight with Russia over some Trigger happy Turks.

Article 5 is more or less : "an attack on one Ally(USA) shall be considered an attack on all Allies"

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby TSJones » 25 Nov 2015 23:41

nirav wrote:@TSJones: Nato countries already making noises about this being between Turkey and Russia.

I really dont see NATO picking a fight with Russia over some Trigger happy Turks.

Article 5 is more or less : "an attack on one Ally(USA) shall be considered an attack on all Allies"


I would point out that the US already has certain assets in Turkey for decades. This is not the Ukraine or Georgia. S-400 in Syria? Ok Patriots in Turkey. The sword cuts both ways. Go ahead, take a shot. I dare ya.
Last edited by TSJones on 25 Nov 2015 23:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby Satya_anveshi » 25 Nov 2015 23:42

Don't go by statements of US/NATO saying that this is between Russia and Turkey. Make no mistake they want Russia to react instantly to this which would be a mistake.

Use this opportunity to expand strikes in northwest Syria where Russia did not conduct ops before. Take out Turkey's jihadi munnas. They will come down into Syrian borders and then Russia can pay back principal and interest.

Also, in 2012, Syria shot down Turkey's plane (F-4 Phantom) and Erdogan said exactly same as what Putin is saying (it was only few seconds without hostile intent etc) but he did exactly what he complained about. In a way it is settling of old score.

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Re: The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Postby UlanBatori » 25 Nov 2015 23:45

Doesn't Turkey have a border with Russia? Or are they sheltered by the brave Georgia?
Also, just as a thought experiment .. I wonder what happens if Russia actually launches a bunch of missiles into downtown Ankara. Not nuclear, just big conventional ones. No warning, no nothing. Will the Patriots react? Will NATOBO launch against Moscow?
I think far better option is to simply provide humanitarian assistance to the Kurds and the Houthis.


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