Discussion on Indian Special Forces

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 02 Dec 2015 09:56

So, basically, our SF guys don't have NVG's for all ops. Even for these guys there are more operators than NVGs.

There is a video (dont know how many members remember it) of an Interview with the Senior American SF NCO during one of the Yudh Abhas SF Ex. He made a statement that was most interesting. He said the Indian guys are not at all impressed / or cared by their Body Armour and Kit with the one Exception of Optics. Indian SF fell in love with the Optics (Scopes / Sights / thermals / NVGs).

Will try and find that video again.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 02 Dec 2015 09:58

Prem Kumar wrote:Tsarkar: NVG non-use/availability in that op was from the statement that the SF could only spot the terrorists based on the flashes from their AKs

Most NVGs against such dense foliage will fail, especially in bad weather. Perhaps the fancy ones worn by DEVGRU which have 4 tubes might work but we don't have access to those. Muzzle flash is a very standard way of determining hidden enemy positions and lot of times soldiers will deliberately try to bait the enemy to fire and reveal their position.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 02 Dec 2015 10:02

Goswami, at the front of the assault team, called out a challenge. There was a burst of fire in return. Following the direction of fire, the 9 Para fired back.

Our ROE HAVE to Change. This Challenging nonsense for a SF unit is plain stupid.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 02 Dec 2015 11:47

The challenging is predicated on the possibility of capturing live terrorists who can be used for Intel. Dead terrorists tell minor tales - alive they often sing major harmonies.

parikh · Post by **parikh** » 02 Dec 2015 12:29

If the rough location of the pigs are known, why cant the SF use mortars / artillery to pound them , instead of getting into a Close quarter shooting match where there will be casualties because of the terrain , there are most probably no civilians in those jungles at those heights.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 02 Dec 2015 13:14

parikh wrote:If the rough location of the pigs are known, why cant the SF use mortars / artillery to pound them , instead of getting into a Close quarter shooting match where there will be casualties because of the terrain , there are most probably no civilians in those jungles at those heights.

Indian army coin doctrine does not permit use of large caliber artillery guns. We have access to RCL which is an accurate weapon if situation demands it

SandeepS · Post by **SandeepS** » 02 Dec 2015 14:44

rkhanna wrote:
Goswami, at the front of the assault team, called out a challenge. There was a burst of fire in return. Following the direction of fire, the 9 Para fired back.
<br abp="825"><br abp="826">Our ROE HAVE to Change. This Challenging nonsense for a SF unit is plain stupid.

When you have friendlies inserted in an environment with poor visuals, the last thing anyone wants is blue-on-blue and challenge-response is tried, tested and near idiot-proof in such tense environments. Last thing you want is to be carrying the "heavy burden" of your buddy who changed position to take a leak and some fancy gizmo didn't identify him in time as a friendly.

This is SOP for nearly all forces (regular or SF) in such circumstances. It will be good to know what alternative/s are you proposing in similar circumstances?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 02 Dec 2015 17:33

When you have friendlies inserted in an environment with poor visuals, the last thing anyone wants is blue-on-blue and challenge-response is tried, tested and near idiot-proof in such tense environments. Last thing you want is to be carrying the "heavy burden" of your buddy who changed position to take a leak and some fancy gizmo didn't identify him in time as a friendly.

A SF Unit needs to shoot move and communicate effectively in a fluid environment. Thats whats makes them 'special' over line infantry. The Argument may hold good for regular infantry. I dont think it holds great water with a SF Unit.

This is SOP for nearly all forces (regular or SF) in such circumstances. It will be good to know what alternative/s are you proposing in similar circumstances?

The SOP has little to do with Tactical awareness and alot more to do with Legality of COIN Encounters.

As for Capturing a militant Alive? What is the probability? Most of these guys fight till the end. The Cases of Capture/surrender are few and far between.

PS. If anybody knows any serving or ex SF gents, check with them. They hate these ROEs as well. Their very concept of Stealth and Ambush are defeated.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 02 Dec 2015 18:02

Brilliant read, crux of the matter is, these guys could have been saved if they had proper armor. They also need 3-4h gen night vision eye pieces. In this day and age every soldier in the SF needs to have these basics.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 02 Dec 2015 18:21

Raja Bose wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:Tsarkar: NVG non-use/availability in that op was from the statement that the SF could only spot the terrorists based on the flashes from their AKs
Most NVGs against such dense foliage will fail, especially in bad weather. Perhaps the fancy ones worn by DEVGRU which have 4 tubes might work but we don't have access to those. Muzzle flash is a very standard way of determining hidden enemy positions and lot of times soldiers will deliberately try to bait the enemy to fire and reveal their position.

Although all modern equipment have their limitations, a little edge always help. For example this nifty IR/Thermal combo can overcome issues which you just stated.

https://tnvc.com/shop/anpsq-20b-envg/

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Dec 2015 20:08

rohitvats wrote:
Karan M wrote:A 100 T-90s would have bought BPJs and NVGs for regiments. But hey, those parade ground pieces which don't even work are more important. Talk about misplaced priorities.
That is a specious argument...do you know the percentage of tanks which suffer from TI issue during ops? 10%, 20%, 30%?

Hardly specious.. just stating the brutal truth.
As regards percentages..try 100% if the TIs were used as others use them in their frontline MBTs. Yes, that's what happens when you get a badly designed system which doesn't fit into the tank its shoehorned in. The only way the IA is reducing defect incidences is by changing its operational methods, i.e. avoid usage of TI in high heat conditions during the day, for extended periods of time. Even the displays were not ruggedized and have been replaced by local items. But the quest for an internal cooling system continues to get around the limitations currently.

And what with Tank versus BPJ argument? Would it hold if IA had ordered 100 Arjun tanks instead of T-90?

A few 100 Arjuns for the "core" plus deep upgrades of the T-72s with ruggedized systems may have been much better than this boondoggle.

Further, perusal of media reports tells me that the issue of BPJ has been stuck in bureaucratic quagmire and not exactly because of lack of funds. Or, misplaced priorities, as you call them.

Bureaucratic quagmire in which IA's broken procurement systems play a huge role.
FYI
http://164.100.47.134/lsscommittee/Defe ... ence_3.pdf

The AoN for procurement of 1,86,138 Bullet Proof Jackets was accorded by
the DAC in Oct 2009. The RFP was retracted due to GSQR related issues
in Dec 2011. The General Staff Qualitative Requirement (GSQR) was
subsequently amended and a fresh RFP was issued in Dec 2012. After
acceptance of Technical Evaluation Report and validation of the velocities
achieved by various types of ammunition at Terminal Ballistic Research Lab
(TBRL) Chandigarh, the Trials of the Bullet Proof Jackets are to commence
shortly.
Bullet Proof Jackets (BPJ) are procured on the basis of the requirements of
the Army and this is an ongoing process. Further in the light of increased
threat perception in counter terrorist operations, a need was felt to review the
GSQR of BPJs and the same has been revised accordingly. The on-going
procurement case is on the basis of the revised GSQRs.
These jackets are available in different configurations and provide different
levels of protection. These have been designed to
ensure proper fitting to enable the wearer to perform his operational tasks
without any hindrance as per Qualitative Requirement (QRs) given. The BPJs
under procurement are available in three sizes with varying minimum SAP
& HAP sizes and weights. As per tentative costs, they are more exp
ensive than the older BPJs. The developed countries like the USA and the
UK use a variety of Bullet Proof Jackets depending on respective operat
ional requirements. The BPJs under procurement for the Indian Army conform
to latest technology in this field.

So late ask, and as usual years wasted due to flawed GSQRs.

Unlike NVGs these are not even as import restricted to the same extent and it was not necessary for local TOT in the short term (Kevlar/Dyneema etc is anyhow from DuPont etc which our local firms fashion into the BPJs).

Anyways, if you think I am being "uncharitable" viz the misplaced priorities, its anything but given the far harsher commentary I have heard from gents involved in the acquisition process and how such things were pushed through.

http://saiindia.gov.in/english/home/our ... /chap2.pdf

There is a huge focus in the establishment of big-ticket items over the more crucial day to day stuff. Examples are legion.

Did you know for instance, the TIs imported initially were unusable because the number of chargers/battery packs was insufficient? EME rigged up local replacements.
Basically whole IA procurement system has mess.

For NVs, pvt sector firms have had options available to bypass BELs inability to get latest TOT. They note that even with BELs pull, they can get initial urgent orders for specific units for short term (eg Alpha got TISAS for T-72). But no orders were placed in decent number & no urgency from IA side too. Answers from all sides are non specific.

HKumar · Post by **HKumar** » 02 Dec 2015 20:55

Tsarkar: No NVGs from here ... Looks like they definitely see the need of NVGs but are struggling with NV on sights :

"We were seeing only through the night-vision sights of our rifles,” Singh says. “Inside a dense forest like that, it’s extremely hard to spot anything through the sights. You cannot see a man, only catch the movement really.”

what would make an operator carry oily, salty and nutritional less meals on ops ? culinary pref just doesn't explain it all.

They are complaining about being cold and wet. they use plastic (ponchos ?) to keep dry. water proof and breathable clothes that don't make sound are not exactly mysterious. think nylon .

HKumar · Post by **HKumar** » 02 Dec 2015 21:22

rkhanna wrote:
So, basically, our SF guys don't have NVG's for all ops. Even for these guys there are more operators than NVGs.
There is a video (dont know how many members remember it) of an Interview with the Senior American SF NCO during one of the Yudh Abhas SF Ex. He made a statement that was most interesting. He said the Indian guys are not at all impressed / or cared by their Body Armour and Kit with the one Exception of Optics. Indian SF fell in love with the Optics (Scopes / Sights / thermals / NVGs).

Will try and find that video again.

This can be seen as inability of Indian SF guys to see beyond the current training SOPs. NVGs may not useful or even make sense until the training and operating SOPs are changed. If your SOP tells you to wait till early morning to breach enemy position, why would you need NVGs?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Dec 2015 21:28

And this:

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military ... /32520023/

Where issues could arise, potentially, is if the two units were to share communications equipment, Kleisner said, adding that for this exercise the Indians will use American equipment.

The Indian Army also doesn't commonly use night-vision goggles, which could translate into different considerations when planning operations.

"Night vision devices proliferate in our formations. For them, that is not the case," Kleisner said. "We've seen the difference in decision-making. Where we'd say we'd go in under the cover of darkness, they would come in a first light."

So far, the Indian soldiers have defied the soldiers' expectations.

"What's great for us to see is the general level of competence that we see in the Indian Army," Kleisner said. "It increases the amount of trust we have in them as future partners. It's good for us as a unit to experience this. We all have experience with the Iraqi and Afghan armies, where we trained them from the ground floor."

We need to accelerate the process of getting state of the art NVG to the troops.

Earlier, the process was stated to be stuck as BEL's NVGs were declared by IA to be insufficient. Shukla had his usual acerbic article on it. But there was no UOR projected for NVGs by IA/MOD to procure crib private vendors who were BEL competitors. They are not always in the know of things but they did point to other big ticket programs which had more focus. BEL subsequently got better class NVG tech from France. But a case can be definitely be made for urgent op requirements from pvt vendors eg TATA, Alpha etc for the short term and limited requirements eg SF even as BELs so called TOT materializes. This is what requires somebody like Parrikar to intervene and drive focus.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Dec 2015 23:41

Raja Bose wrote:Most NVGs against such dense foliage will fail, especially in bad weather. Perhaps the fancy ones worn by DEVGRU which have 4 tubes might work but we don't have access to those. Muzzle flash is a very standard way of determining hidden enemy positions and lot of times soldiers will deliberately try to bait the enemy to fire and reveal their position.

NVGs - the image intensifier ones as i understand, need some light to function. In complete, pitch darkness in the jungle, you will need external sources of light, eg your own sources of light which may be detected by an opponent NVG - so a qualified risk. It is claimed the latest IIT based NVGs of Figure of Merit (FOM metric used for classifying capability by Khan) 1700 and + can even do away with this, but apart from one usual BEL bashing article by Shukla, haven't seen this confirmed (edit: 2 more articles note this from the tech side so it should be valid). Khan prevents export of its own tech with FOM>1600.

TI based NVGs will be more bulky, but their effectiveness against human targets will be more unless significant obscurants are there, or the opponent is wearing something expensive like SAAB's cammo suits or sitting under treated glass (say). I think the key issue is whether SF have access to the latest NVGs and optics in plenty wherein the need to employ it or not becomes a decision of choice. The allocation for the regular troops seems to be less than ideal.

A detailed overview of the topic.
http://defencesecurityindia.com/night-vision-devices/
http://www.claws.in/images/journals_doc ... %20War.pdf
So BELs original plan was per reports XD-4 with FOM 1600 (as versus FOM 1400+ today). IA asked for FOM 1700+ for pitch darkness. Now XR-5 is mentioned.
http://defencesecurityindia.com/bel-man ... echnology/

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 03 Dec 2015 12:40

Lets not forget Comms!!. I am sure our SF units have the latest Encrypted Frequency Hopping sets but these gents need a better handsfree capability. Not to mention Throat mikes where even the smallest of whispers can be picked up.

nits · Post by **nits** » 04 Dec 2015 18:29

I think there is a basic problem in Indian Mindset... we want all fancy Big toys - Planes, Tanks, Carriers and what not but a good quality kit for Solider goes on back burner for years - Be it Body Armour, Bullet proof jackets, Rifles, NVG, Shoes, Winter clothing, comms sets and list is endless...

We need to ensure that at end of day solider is the one who actually is in War Zone and he needs to be equipped with best of kit and mind you - all of this will cost very less then then a dozen Rafael

(just a comparison )

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Dec 2015 19:09

Guys found an authoritative reference on NVGs and IR systems available in Indian inventory.
http://www.claws.in/images/publication_ ... Edited.pdf

Explains why the deal for XR-5 was signed
Keynote Address: Dr SS Negi, Outstanding Scientist & Scientist H, DRDO, Head,
Vision Instrumentation Laboratory, IRDE

India imported the Gen-II tubes with a FOM of 464, which improved to 969 in 2009 with DRDO participation. In 2011, XD4 technology was transferred from Photonis with FOM of 1250 while the transfer of technology for XR5 is under consideration for 2014. FOM of XR-5 ranges from 1400-2100
and the Indian Army has asked for tubes with FOM of 1700.

Many more details in link.

Brigadier TPS Rawat

The hype that surrounded air power during the First Gulf War based RMA managed to obfuscate a
parallel revolution in Night Fighting Capabilities. The T-72 tanks of the Iraqi Republican Guards
Divisions that put up a fairly good fight by day, suffered badly by night due to the differential in night
fighting capabilities.
Most combat in South Asia will take place at night and there is a need to improve the night fighting
capabilities of our MBTs.
Programmes are underway to equip 700 Indian tanks with Thermal Imaging Stand Alone Systems (TISAS) and 418 with Thermal Fire Control System(TFCS) at cost of around 230 million dollars. Approximately around 300 Israeli TISAS have so far been installed. On 02 Apr 13, Thermal Imaging Night Sights worth 300 million dollars were cleared by MoD. Under this plan BEL will supply 5000 NVDs, 2000 for T-72 tanks and 1200 for T-90 tanks and 1780 for BMP-1s. 100% Indian Tanks are expected tohave NVD devices by 2017.

While the electric LC fence has been able to reduce infiltration substantially, the bulk of the attrition
was imposed ahead of the fence by small ambush partiesthat were equipped with Israeli
handheld Thermal Imaging devices.
The present capacity of one NVD device per section is insufficient to meet the highly night active
conflict of the future.
At the current requirement of one NVD per section, the Indian Army will need
30,000 third Gen NVDs for its infantry.MoD is now pushing for 50 percent personnel with NVDs.
However, NVDs in service are a generation behind what our adversaries have.They are also power inefficient.
Operational staff must prioritize this effort and rework our tactical requirements.
On 11 Nov 13, MoD cleared a proposal of Rs 3800 crores for procurement of Image Intensification NVDs for Carbines for Infantry soldiers.
The NVDs can generate a tactical revolution in Low Intensity Conflict
Operations (CI/CT Operations). We need to invest urgently in Third Gen NVDs -both a mix of passive sights and Thermal Imagers

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Dec 2015 20:23

One NVD per section.. hence the statement there is a shortage, lack of availability stands validated.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 05 Dec 2015 09:48

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... HSQ60gN0lY

Navy Day demo. Marcos @1:40+

Sigh at the cooking mits and Vader Helmets.

What was wrong with these helmets?!!

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 05 Dec 2015 09:51

Okay maybe take the Vader Helmet comment back..

A pic from the same demo

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 05 Dec 2015 14:51

Mittens are gloves for fast roping.

Thanks for the pic .... the RHIB seems to be a new model - larger than ones seen previously.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 05 Dec 2015 16:02

Indian Navy parachute drop .... middle of the ocean:

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2015 00:21

From an Indian Army promotional vid apparently. From DFI via twitter

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2015 00:37

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 12 Dec 2015 04:05

In the last pic you can see the screen for attack RC drone.

Its just 8 by 6 inch screen, really super small.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 12 Dec 2015 07:32

Looks like one of them is holding a Czech Vz 59 machine gun.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 08 Jan 2016 15:55

Found this awesome NSG pic:

The vehicles are in motion!

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 11 Jan 2016 09:56

Recent NSG Drills in the NCR Region

Garud

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 11 Jan 2016 10:08

err can Mods help with re sizing?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 11 Jan 2016 10:10

MARCOS

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 11 Jan 2016 15:05

Source ?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 11 Jan 2016 16:16

Most of these are Image Captures from various Videos. But primary source is IDF / Google and other forums.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 12 Jan 2016 10:36

Not directly related to the Indian Special Forces, but folks here will still probably find this interesting. Gives a better idea of gritty real world SF operations vis a vis slick Hollywood imagery.

Mexican Marines raid 'El Chapo' hideout

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 12 Jan 2016 11:09

^^ SOFREP is reporting that the US Marshalls office Ran and planned the OP. Delta was on the Ground purely as advisors while the Mexican Marines did the heavy lifting.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 12 Jan 2016 12:29

How many black helmets - 2 or 4?

rkhanna wrote:Recent NSG Drills in the NCR Region

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 14 Jan 2016 13:57

Any data on the medal tally to the Garuds?

Googled around and found 1 VM (Gallantry) awared for J&K rescue ops.

For NSG:

Sr.No. Army Number Rank and Name Parent Org Award Date of Award Awarded for (Ops etc)
1. IC-59575 Lt Col Akkula Balakrishna Engrs Sena Medal 26 Jan 2015 NSG
2. IC-56123 Maj Saurabh Shah DOGRA Sena Medal 15 Aug 2009 N S G
3. IC-58660 Maj (Late) Sandeep Unnikrishnan BIHAR Ashok Chakra (P) 26 Jan 2009 NS G
4. IC-63425 Capt AK Singh Arty Shaurya Chakra 26 Jan 2009 N S G
5. IC-60971 Maj Manish Mehrotra PUNJAB Sena Medal 26 Jan 2009 N S G
6. IC-55877 Maj Sanjay Kandwal KUMAON Sena Medal 26 Jan 2009 N S G
7. IC-54322 Maj V Ravi AD Arty Sena Medal 15 Aug 2003 N S G
8. IC-52640 Maj Tushar Joshi KUMAON Sena Medal 15 Aug 2003 N S G
9. IC-54624 Maj Devesh Singh AOC Sena Medal 15 Aug 2002 N S G
10. IC-50464 Maj KS Moorthy AOC Sena Medal 15 Aug 2002 N S G
11. IC-44729 Maj PS Sehrawat Gurads Sena Medal 15 Aug 1998 N S G
12. IC-48699 Maj Ivor Goldsmith AOC Sena Medal 15 Aug 1998 N S G

Overall Operational Results Achieved

Arms recovered 131
Explosives recovered 100 kg
Terrorists killed 106
Terrorists apprehended 34
Terrorists surrendered 339
Hostages rescued 625

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 16 Jan 2016 15:32

Interesting picture. are these gents Combat Divers only or MARCOS?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 16 Jan 2016 18:16

Uniforms have IA insignia printed. IA also have divers.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 16 Jan 2016 23:34

IA has combat divers in the SF stream. That is why the photo of Major Udai Singh has the badge. He was Para SF and SG. I'm not aware of any such specialization existing in the Corps of Engineers or outside of SF in IA. And MARCOS are perforce Combat Divers, Para SF are not. So, I don't think a MARCOS needs to sport the Combat Diver badge.