Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

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Philip
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

I think that it was almost 15-20 yrs ago that Janes' came out with an article,"the ubiquitous Kilo",remarking on how well the sub had stayed relevant despite many newer sub designs emerging. That article should be dusted off with this latest titbit that an IN Kilo "shafted" a US Los Angeles class SSN! That the Kilos are exceptionally quiet is universally known.They are also a steal at around just $300M a sub.Vietnam is the lucky nation that has bought 6,all built at record speed,one every two years!
IN Kilos have another trick up their sleeve,the indigenous sonar spoken of.Had the legendary naval genius Paulraj stayed in India-a stupid babu supposedly shut down his R&D programme,we would perhaps be challenging to be the world leaders in sonar tech.Instead he pushed off to the US and reportedly has many intl. patents to his name.

What the IT v-clip has shown is that there has been considerable digitisation of eqpt,monitors,etc.,compared to the analogue displays earlier. There is a lot more that can be done.esp. with automation-the Western and Russian design doctrines differ.It would be interesting to see how the Kilos can be further upgraded.An AIP system,plug for VLS missile silos perhaps,but this would require a more powerful powerplant.Now that the Amur/Lada has overcome its teething problems,it would be interesting for the IN to compare the two,the key diff. being that the Amur has a single hull unlike the Kilo. The double hull may be a key factor why the Kilos are so quiet.An AIP system though would further enhance its deadliness.

Since the IN had 10 kilos at one time,we now have 9,it would be worthwhile to acquire 2-3 more new Kilos to augment numbers at very reasonable cost,esp. if this venerable design can hold its own against modern US attack subs.How it fares against say a U-214/U-216,compares with the Scorpenes and the Soryus will be very difficult to fathom,Scorpenes yes-since we are to operate them from next year. Since our principal enemies are Pak and China,who also possess earlier Kilo subs ,French Agostas,and Chinese Kilos clones ,the latest upgraded Kilos in the IN should not have too much of a problem in dealing with them,but we lack the numbers.A min. of 24 conventional/AIP boats plus our two classes of N-subs is essential to deal with the Sino-Pak JV.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/in-u ... 33506.html

A desi report on the LS-SAM,Barak-8,but the report from the Israeli media posted should be taken as more accurate,as it gives a higher range (150km) for the missile.There are probably a few versions which differ mainly in range,from a min of 80KM to 150KM.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 63998.html
Missile will ramp up naval warship potency
Ajay Banerjee
Tribune News Service

New Delhi, November 27
The long-range surface-to-air missile that has been successfully tested against a flying target from an Israeli warship will be the main stay of the Navy in the year to come.
The missile has a range of 80 km and height ceiling of 16 km. It will have the ability to simultaneously engage 12 targets with 24 missiles.
The DRDO is tasked with producing the propulsion rocket system, thrust vector system and certain other components.
The Israel Aerospace Industry (IAI) has built the seeker and the last stage avionics.
Once the missile is okayed, frontline Indian warships will carry it. Fifteen warships, including the Vikramaditya and under-construction aircraft carrier Vikrant will have these. It’s easier to fit the missile on under-construction ships. Fitting it onto the existing platforms like the Vikramaditya will be a complex procedure and it will entail some cutting through the deck, a period of eight to nine months will be needed to do this.
The test was to launch the missile from a moving warship and verify its ability to identify and kill the target mid-air while even changing course mid-flight. The missile costs Rs 2,606 crore – approximately $450 billion.*( for how many?)
This will be a generational shift over the in-use Barak 1 missile system which has been fitted on a host of naval ships, including aircraft carrier INS Viraat. The new missile guarantees protection to a ship from an aircraft or even a sea-skimming cruise missile.
Only a few missile systems offer protection to ships against aircraft and very few can stop sea-skimming cruise missiles. A sea-skimming missile is difficult to detect.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Aditya G »

What does range mean in context of a SAM?

150 Km means that it will intercept a target out at that distance, or intercept a target launched from 150 kms away?.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by John »

Philip wrote:A desi report on the LS-SAM,Barak-8,but the report from the Israeli media posted should be taken as more accurate,as it gives a higher range (150km) for the missile.There are probably a few versions which differ mainly in range,from a min of 80KM to 150KM.
Which israeli media?? Jpost and few other's don't even mention a range. Officially IAI hasn't released any such information with that test. More than likely they simply googled it and mistook and misreported Barak8ERs 150 km range.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by shiv »

Video INS Sindhukirti Less awesome than the Hindi video I had linked earlier because the fellow spends too much time highlighting risks
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/video/snee ... 27185.html
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by SaiK »

http://idrw.org/indo-japan-defence-beyo ... more-79817

Is idrw smoking pot? or I missed the news about Japan denying soryu class subs.
wiki is still old without this update if then.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C5%8Dry ... _submarine

anyway, idrw written articles suck big time! or who paid them this time?
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Aditya G »

Project 15B @ IDEX2015.

Visible differences from Project 15A:

1. V shaped bridge/focsle
2. Platform connecting mast and funnel
3. Different funnels ... for better IR signature?

Image

Image
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by John »

That is not P 15b the Brahmos VLS cells are stacked horizontally not vertically as per computer rendered model displayed during Visakhapatnam launch. Also the turret in model does not resemble oto 127 mm.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Aditya G »

^ please share the link for the render
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

Another report of the IT story.
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... lear-14473
Revealed: Russian-Built Kilo Submarine 'Kills' American Nuclear Sub
Dave Majumdar

December 1, 2015

The Indian media is claiming that one of New Delhi’s Russian-built Kilo-class diesel-electric attack submarines managed to “sink” a nuclear-powered U.S. Navy Los Angeles-class attack submarine during exercises in October.

The Indian submarine INS Sindhudhvaj (S56) allegedly “killed” USS City of Corpus Christi (SSN 705) during an exercise called Malabar that is held annually between India, Japan and the United States. According to the Indians, the submarines were assigned to track each other down in the Bay of Bengal. “The way it happens is that the Sindhudhvaj recorded the Hydrophonic Effect (HE) - simply put, underwater noise - of the nuclear powered submarine and managed to positively identify it before locking on to it. Being an exercise what did not happen was the firing,” an Indian naval officer told India Today. The Indian vessel then “sank” USS City of Corpus Christi using 533mm torpedoes.

If the Indian description of the events is correct, it would be a bright spot in an otherwise dismal record for New Delhi’s undersea force. In recent years, the woefully neglected Indian submarine fleet has suffered numerous calamities. Submarines have run aground, caught fire and even sunk due to a combination of underinvestment, negligence and corruption. Perhaps the worst incident was when INS Sindhurakshak sank when at harbor in Mumbai after a series of explosions in the forward torpedo bay, killing eighteen sailors.

Nonetheless, it’s not a huge surprise that a Russian-built Kilo would be able to defeat a Los Angeles-class attack boat. The Los Angeles-class is a dated design that is slowly being replaced by the newer and exponentially quieter Virginia-class submarine. However, it must be noted that we do not know the rules of engagement or parameters that the sides had agreed to. Furthermore, it must be noted there is the possibility of exaggeration.

But the basic facts are that the Kilo is an extremely quiet and very capable submarine owing to its diesel-electric propulsion system. Running on electrical power while submerged, diesel-electric boats have been described as “a hole in the water” and are a vexing problem for the U.S. Navy. Developing ways to counter such vessels is a high-priority for Washington as many potential adversaries like China and Iran operate such submarines.

While diesel-electric boats are generally quieter than nuclear submarines, the U.S. Navy prefers atomic powered vessels because of their range, speed and endurance. The U.S. Navy’s global mission essentially mandates a vessel that can operate independently far from home waters for extended periods. Navies with a more localized mission can afford to operate short-range diesel-electric boats.

While the Indian report may or may not be correct, this incident highlights the need to completely replace the Los Angeles-class with Virginia-class boats as soon as possible. The Virginia-class is orders of magnitude quieter and offers far better sensors and carries more weapons. The newer vessels are far more effective against threats like the Kilo than their Los Angeles-class predecessors. Buying as many Virginias as possible becomes especially important as more and more potential adversaries procure advanced diesel-electric boats like the Kilo or the even more capable Russian-built Amur.

Dave Majumdar is the defense editor for The National Interest. You can follow him on Twitter: @davemajumdar.
PS:This is why the USN is developing long-endurance stealth UUVs which can be delivered from their N-boats into shallower waters,coastal zones and penetrate harbour defences to overcome the advantage that conventional AIP boats have.Even in deeper waters,these UUVs could act as screens for the larger N-boats detecting enemy boats at greater ranges than the subs own sonar.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

Looking at the P-15 model,there is ample scope for a CIWS,SR anti-missile SAM like B-1 between the two 30mm gatlings. The DDGs do not have enough LR B-8s to deal with massed saturation attacks which one could expect esp. from the PLAN. The larger the combatant,the greater the layers of anti-air/missile defences required. Not every incoming SAM will be detected at ranges beyond 50+ KM. Given the same or equiv. seeker capability,these SR SAMs with ranges out to say 20Km,would be able to do the business at short ranges instead of using a larger more expensive SAM for the same,esp. as the range of B-8 has been hinted at 100-150KM capability.

New US warship design concepts also place such SR SAMs in silos flush/adjacent to the outer hulls ,as a kind of ERA,protecting the larger longer ranged SSMs like BMos for example,and LR SAMs which are generally located along the vessel's centre line. The more SAM anti-missile systems a warship carries,the better chance it will have in fending off anti-ship missile attacks.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by John »

Aditya G wrote:^ please share the link for the render
Actually you posted them here in august here is the link scroll down.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... ?p=1829632
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Karan M »

Aditya G wrote:What does range mean in context of a SAM?

150 Km means that it will intercept a target out at that distance, or intercept a target launched from 150 kms away?.
Slant range is the usual range for a SAM. However, it can also be used (depending on SAM design and developer honesty) for effective range. Eg Akash range is 25km-30km but its all the way thrust during that period. DRDO doesn't mention max ballistic range and notional hits.

http://www.x-plane.org/home/urf/aviatio ... s/sam.html
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by John »

Karan M wrote:
Aditya G wrote:What does range mean in context of a SAM?

150 Km means that it will intercept a target out at that distance, or intercept a target launched from 150 kms away?.
Slant range is the usual range for a SAM. However, it can also be used (depending on SAM design and developer honesty) for effective range. Eg Akash range is 25km-30km but its all the way thrust during that period. DRDO doesn't mention max ballistic range and notional hits.

http://www.x-plane.org/home/urf/aviatio ... s/sam.html
Akash is command guided missile and lacks the ability to fly highly optimized flight path like missiles like Aster 30 or Barak 8 which use autopilot in combination with mid course guidance and fly more of ballistic flight profile. So the max range is 25-30 km also the hit probability will greatly decline in high ranges due to command guidance (factor in latency) one of the reasons Akash 2 needs to utilize Active or Semi active guidance.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Aditya G »

John wrote:
Aditya G wrote:^ please share the link for the render
Actually you posted them here in august here is the link scroll down.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... ?p=1829632
Thanks! I think the model represents the 15B mainly on account of the modified superstructure.

Either the render or the model could be inaccurate or an older drawing.

Image
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Aditya G »

Philip wrote:Looking at the P-15 model,there is ample scope for a CIWS,SR anti-missile SAM like B-1 between the two 30mm gatlings. ...
The most conducive space is on the 'pedestals' adjacent to the aft smoke stacks.

In delhi the Barak-1 STGRs are mounted on this spot.

Image
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Karan M »

John wrote:Akash is command guided missile and lacks the ability to fly highly optimized flight path like missiles like Aster 30 or Barak 8 which use autopilot in combination with mid course guidance and fly more of ballistic flight profile. So the max range is 25-30 km also the hit probability will greatly decline in high ranges due to command guidance (factor in latency) one of the reasons Akash 2 needs to utilize Active or Semi active guidance.
I dont think you got my point at all. Its not about command guidance. With a powerful BLR, that is not the issue.
Its about the fact that the Akash range is clearly mentioned for its effective range which is limited to the portion of its envelope it has all the way thrust. Not a pure long range even with reduced Pk which some manufacturers quote despite the notional range being completely theoretical and with a low Pk. A classic case are AAMs which quote 100km plus ranges despite the fact that against maneuvering targets, the Pk is negligible at those far ranges and the actual range where propulsion is active, is much less.

As regards latency, you are mistaken there, because the S-300 even datalinks its information back to its guidance radar and C3I and does not rely purely on onboard guidance.
A high rate datalink as long as its secure and signals are not attenuated by the missile plume can do the work. This was developed for the Trishul as well, so the technology exists and can be adapted. Akash's final seeker configuration will be chosen not merely based on range but survivability and effectiveness as well. Plus there is expense. Many choices and trade offs.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Aditya G »

INS Airavat interior - its quite large!:

Image

Image
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by kmkraoind »

Vishal Thapar ‏@thaparvishal

- #IndianNavyDay India considering building additional Scorpene submarines (beyond the 6 under construction): Navy Chief Admiral Dhowan
- #IndianNavyDay Procurement of S-92 multi-role choppers in advanced stage: Navy Chief Admiral Dhowan
Things are moving pretty fast on US maal issues. These are definitely big geopolitical moves.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by member_22539 »

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 7m7 minutes ago
India's expansion of its primary area of interests as stated in its revised maritime posture will be backed by an expansion in fleet sizes

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 7m7 minutes ago
Project 15B destroyer numbers may be increased. A new cruiser design may be on the anvil. P-`17A numbers may grow as well.

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 7m7 minutes ago
At least 12 nuclear submarines are projected. Numbers likely to grow. Many more fleet support ships on the anvil as well.

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 6m6 minutes ago
Aircraft Carrier numbers will rise to 5-6 by the early 2030s.
NICE. :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Cybaru »

Perhaps p75 will be a nuclear design
Scorpene may expand to 10 boats then.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by sum »

Arun Menon wrote:
Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 7m7 minutes ago
India's expansion of its primary area of interests as stated in its revised maritime posture will be backed by an expansion in fleet sizes

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 7m7 minutes ago
Project 15B destroyer numbers may be increased. A new cruiser design may be on the anvil. P-`17A numbers may grow as well.

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 7m7 minutes ago
At least 12 nuclear submarines are projected. Numbers likely to grow. Many more fleet support ships on the anvil as well.

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 6m6 minutes ago
Aircraft Carrier numbers will rise to 5-6 by the early 2030s.
NICE. :mrgreen:
Has some BRF-ite landed up in MoD by mistake?

5-6 aircraft carriers? :eek:
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Yagnasri »

5-6 Carriers seems to be far fetched. With Doval as NSA we can assume that the Navy get lot of support for its expansion. Good news all around.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by JTull »

This is only affordable if made in India, including sub-systems. We need lot of work on Power systems - GTs, etc. I like what IN is doing here by coming out with there long-term plans to localise many of the technologies.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

Adit,in the modified Delhis,one 30mm gatling has been removed for replacement with B-1. If you look at the model/pic for the newer variants of the DDG,There is space between the two gatlings for a missile CIWS like B-1 .

Coming back to the report that the Vik-A will also be fitted with B-8 later on,why on earth should it involve metal cutting. Surely the location has already been fixed for the LR SAM.One could've had a cutout dome earlier with a removable panel/panels placed over the cutout,and other installation work below deck completed ,making it very easy to install later on.

With the IN also facing an MCM crisis and no new MCMs under construction even though Goa ahs been chosen for building the same,this is an intriguing reoort.Ck the link for drawings,etc.

http://thediplomat.com/2015/12/new-wrin ... e-warfare/
New Wrinkles in Maritime Warfare
The advent of precision capabilities for the antiship mine is revolutionary.

By Col Michael W. “Starbaby” Pietrucha
December 03, 2015

Last year, the Air Force achieved a little-noticed aviation milestone: the first-ever drop of a winged, precision guided aerial mine. Almost fifty years after Texas Instruments slapped a laser guidance kit on a M117 dumb bomb, the Air Force added a guidance kit to a dumb mine, and greatly expanded the potential for aerial mining. The late arrival of precision capabilities to the antiship mine is no less revolutionary than it was for the advent of precision bombs in the first place, allowing precise placement of mines and improving the survivability of the employing platform. This development has the potential to revitalize aerial mining and add immeasurably to joint countermaritime operations.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

Ramanna,this may partly cover your earlier query.Still working on it.

India’s Evolving Maritime Strategy
http://thediplomat.com/2015/12/indias-e ... -strategy/
India shifts its focus from ‘using’ to ‘securing’ maritime security in the Indo-Pacific.
By Darshana M. Baruah
December 03, 2015

On October 26, 2015, the Indian Navy released its latest maritime strategy, titled “Ensuring Secure Seas: Indian Maritime Security Strategy.” This edition is a revised and updated version of the previous outlined strategy “Freedom to Use the Seas: India’s Maritime Military Strategy,” published in 2007. The title itself is indicative of the changing tone of the Indian navy’s interests and intentions from the 2007 strategy. The previous strategy did not take into consideration the changing geopolitical environment and its strategic implications on India’s maritime interests. The 2015 maritime security strategy addresses this gap by complementing the evolving security dynamics in the Indian Ocean region and reflecting a bold Indian navy with a renewed outlook on India’s maritime security needs.

The security architecture in maritime Asia along with the rise of China is compelling India to define its strategic interests and review its maritime policy. The maritime security strategy precisely does the same. It carries a larger strategic angle than its predecessors and attempts to embody an Indian naval vision for the region.

There are three key points that underpin the shift in India’s naval strategy as per this document.

One, this is the first time that an Indian government document is formally acknowledging the implications of the evolving and increasingly accepted concept of the “Indo-Pacific” on India’s maritime security. The geographic extent of this concept has multiple variations but in the contemporary world, the notion essentially brings the Indian Ocean and the Western Pacific — theaters of geo-political competition — into one strategic arc. The concept has been formally endorsed by Australia, and Canberra outlines the strategic implications of this region in its 2013 Defense White paper. Regional countries such as the United States, Japan, India, and Indonesia prefer to use the term Asia-Pacific in their official documents but different sections of the leadership from these countries have used the term Indo-Pacific in their speeches and remarks.

Indian Chief of Naval Staff RK Dhowan, underpinning the need to revise the 2007 maritime strategy, writes, “The shift in worldview from a Euro-Atlantic to an Indo-Pacific focus and the repositioning of global economic and military power towards Asia has resulted in significant political, economic and social changes in the Indian Ocean Region and impacted India’s maritime environment in tangible ways.”

India has been adamantly focused on the Indian Ocean and the security changes along its maritime boundaries. As developments beyond this region began to shape the maritime security framework in the Indian Ocean Region, there was a sense of uncertainty among regional navies as to whether India is taking note of these changes and, more importantly, if New Delhi will re-align its policies based on these developments. Nations such as the United States, Japan, and Australia had realized the role India could play in the evolving security architecture, but there was no clarity on New Delhi’s intentions. This edition of the Maritime Security Strategy is putting those concerns to rest, to a certain extent.

Two, the navy’s areas of interest (both primary and secondary) are expanding, reflecting New Delhi’s willingness to play a larger role in the region. The Red Sea, previously a secondary area of interest (as per the revised Maritime Doctrine of 2009), is now an area of primary interest for the Indian navy. Additionally, “the Gulf of Oman, the Gulf of Aden and their littoral regions, the Southwest Indian Ocean, including IOR island nations therein and East Coast of Africa littoral regions” now all are of primary interest to India’s maritime security. While Africa and its littoral regions previously were only of secondary importance, the Gulf of Oman, Aden and the South-West Indian Ocean did not feature specifically in either of the areas of interest in the Maritime Doctrine.

The secondary area too has expanded to include the “Southeast Indian Ocean, including sea routes to the Pacific Ocean and littoral regions in the vicinity, the Mediterranean Sea, the West Coast of Africa, and their littoral regions.” The South China Sea continues to remain of secondary importance, but adding to this interest is the specific region of the “East China Sea, Western Pacific Ocean and their littoral regions.”

In defining the areas of interest, the navy’s intention is to outline the geographic extension of its strategic influence and give an indication of its involvement in those areas. Over the years, India’s ASEAN friends have voiced their disappointment in New Delhi’s lack of naval and political presence in the South China Sea, against the backdrop of a rising China. This Maritime Strategy re-affirms India’s resolve to not get directly engaged in the affairs of the Western Pacific and get caught in the U.S.-China power politics dynamic. While ASEAN nations have shown a preference for a larger Indian presence in the Western Pacific, regional navies such as Australia and the United States have encouraged India to play a larger security role and be a “net security provider” in the region.

This brings us to the third and a critical development in India’s shifting naval strategy – the role of a net security provider. The Indian Navy in this document has attempted to define what it means to be a net security provider. The strategy outlines: “The term net security describes the state of actual security available in an area, upon balancing against the ability to monitor, contain, and counter all of these.” While the navy has not indicated the geographic extent of the region where it aspires to be a net security provider, it has however acknowledged the steps required to be a net security provider. The document does not state whether the navy will be a net security provider and how, but rather outlines the environment conducive to be one. In the backdrop of the region’s expectation for the Indian navy to be a net security provider, the step taken to spell out what the term means is a positive approach. The ‘objective’ for the moment is to “shape a favorable and positive maritime environment, for enhancing net security in India’s areas of maritime interest.”

This links us back to the first point, which is India’s move to acknowledge the changes happening around India’s area of maritime interest — regardless of whether the navy ascribes to them or not — and renew its own strategy keeping in line with India’s strategic interests.

The fact that there has been a shift in India’s maritime strategy and policies was made clear through the navy’s engagement under the Modi government. There was, however, no document per se spelling out this shift. The 2015 maritime strategy not only formalizes the intent of the Indian navy, it also takes a bold tone in narrating the same. Given the emphasis on collaborating with other navies, it is clear that part of the narrative is to build a network of regional cooperation to ensure peace and stability in India’s areas of interest. The document also recognizes the increasing importance of HADR operations for the Indian navy, given the expansion of India’s maritime outlook as well as capabilities.

Be it through the Joint Strategic Vision with the United States, Japan’s inclusion into the MALABAR exercises, new bilateral exercises with Japan, Indonesia, and Australia, or re-engaging with the island nations of the IOR and South Pacific, there is a clear message that India is willing to play a larger role in the unfolding security architecture in the region.

It was only a matter of time before New Delhi acknowledged the changing dynamics within its area of maritime interests. The initiatives taken under the Modi government to re-engage with the navies of the region are much appreciated and this document is a step forward in voicing India’s intentions and concerns regarding maritime security. If New Delhi can sustain the momentum that it has created in the Asian maritime domain, India will emerge as a credible leader and critical player in the evolving security architecture of the Indo-Pacific

Darshana M. Baruah is a Junior Fellow at the Observer Research Foundation in New Delhi.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by soumik »

New Cruiser design??? any chance we might partner the Russians in Building a Lider MKI?
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by JTull »

Hmmm! Can't we can't do it ourselves, or do we need to pay Russians royalty to call our "new cruiser design" Indian?
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by soumik »

JTull wrote:Hmmm! Can't we can't do it ourselves, or do we need to pay Russians royalty to call our "new cruiser design" Indian?
We can and should do it ourselves but will the politicos let us is the real question here!
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by sankum »

Navy Day Special: Guardians set for challenging missions
He said the strength of his Squadron will be tripled in the next three years with the addition of more assets.
Aditya G
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Aditya G »

^ Gem of a piece there.
A total of 32 more ALHs are likely to be ordered from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) out of which 16 are earmarked for the Indian Coast Guard.
Hopefully that kills off ICG's frivolous tender for 16 medium SAR helicopters.
On the current roles being played by the ALH, Cdr Tomer says it involves, training for air crew, SAR missions, Special Operations by MARCOS, Communication duties, and operations from the ships.

The Navy wants us to integrate with the fleets and get on with the operations in the Gulf of Eden. We are also moving into the night SAR missions, a capability with very few countries. It's a highly specialised role and we are getting on to that domain as well," says Cdr Tomer.
Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/feature/navy-da ... 44952.html
sum wrote:Has some BRF-ite landed up in MoD by mistake?

5-6 aircraft carriers? :eek:
Somebody from IDRW has infiltrated MoD or Shri Jha's twitter account.

BRF agents demand shallow water ASW and minesweepers only :((
titash
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by titash »

Aditya G wrote:^ Gem of a piece there.
A total of 32 more ALHs are likely to be ordered from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) out of which 16 are earmarked for the Indian Coast Guard.
Hopefully that kills off ICG's frivolous tender for 16 medium SAR helicopters.
On the current roles being played by the ALH, Cdr Tomer says it involves, training for air crew, SAR missions, Special Operations by MARCOS, Communication duties, and operations from the ships.

The Navy wants us to integrate with the fleets and get on with the operations in the Gulf of Eden. We are also moving into the night SAR missions, a capability with very few countries. It's a highly specialised role and we are getting on to that domain as well," says Cdr Tomer.
Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/feature/navy-da ... 44952.html
sum wrote:Has some BRF-ite landed up in MoD by mistake?

5-6 aircraft carriers? :eek:
Somebody from IDRW has infiltrated MoD or Shri Jha's twitter account.

BRF agents demand shallow water ASW and minesweepers only :((
The million $$ question is will these ALHs be embarked onboard Navy & CG OPVs for long range maritime ops? And will they have automatic blade folding + minimized vibration? Both problems seemed to limit utilization ~ 5-10 years ago.
John
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by John »

Karan M,

Will reply to your post in missiles section.
soumik wrote:New Cruiser design??? any chance we might partner the Russians in Building a Lider MKI?
Russians havent built a modern destroyer and chances are they are not going to build one any time soon. Where are they going to get a cruiser from.


IMO the cruiser design will likely be streched out P 17A, P17A will likely displace nearly as much as delhi. A streched version will easily be in 9000 ton range.

Still less than burke ddg but i think IN will classify them as cruisers.
Paul
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Paul »

IN tends to underplay the class of warships. P28 is about 3000 tons but is corvette class where in Pakiland 3200ton class warship from Cheen is Frigate.

Rest assured when the cruiser arrives it will not be less than 12000 tons.
Singha
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

I think P17A is a logical base for next cruiser as its a more modern design overall than P15 and has the template of the LM2500 powerplant and electrical systems working already. ..... a stretched P17B the size of P15B or slightly larger would be more amenable to soothing stealthy shapes probably.

and as already mentioned, the barak1/maitri etc has plenty room near the funnels and the AFT missile barak8 array near the hangar can be made considerably larger with some redesign of the interior.....most of the biggies worldwide have a huge array in that location.
uddu
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by uddu »



Old video. The initial part of the video shows the cruiser design.
Nick_S
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Nick_S »

Captain DK Sharma ‏@CaptDKS 13h13 hours ago
#NavyWeek2015 INS Viraat, Mysore, Kolkata & Ganga at Mumbai Anchorage

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soumik
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by soumik »

Paul wrote:IN tends to underplay the class of warships. P28 is about 3000 tons but is corvette class where in Pakiland 3200ton class warship from Cheen is Frigate.

Rest assured when the cruiser arrives it will not be less than 12000 tons.
I don't care if she tips the scales at 18000Tonnes.
Just let her have 160 BARAK 8 + BARAK 1 in VLS alongwith 32 Nirbhay and 32 BRAHMOS and two 155mm main guns, also at least 8-10 Kashtan CIWS and assorted goodies including the capability to deploy at least 2 Ka-31's/ALH. i'll be very very happy.
parikh
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by parikh »

Was going through the IN navy ships page in BR , the number of active modern combat worthy ships is

- 3 Destroyers (INS Kolkatta class)
- 3 Frigates ( Project 17) + 6 Russi Talwar class Frigates = 9 Frigates
- 2 Kamortas
- 1 Aircraft Carries - 1 Vik

i.e 12 modern combat ships minus the kamorta + Vik , out of which at least 6 will be allocated to Vik's convoy . So only 6 left for action.

When the Vikrant joins the fleet , those will go to its convoy , so effectively none free for offensive operations.

Rest (Delhi class destroyers , Ranjit , Brahmaputra etc etc) are all pretty much junk and will be no match in a modern battlefield. And doubt Godavari + Missile boats are seaworthy any more.

Unless the Navy initiates a massive rapid ship building exercise yesterday , all talk of a Blue Water Navy should be kept in PPT's only.

We need 8 destroyers + 16 Frigates just to replace the current old ships. The Visakhapatnam's and P17A's are rolling out at snail's pace.

In the future we might be involved in a pissing contest with the Pakis , in M.E and with the Chinese all at once.

Blockading the Malacca and Sunda straits will need numbers.
John
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by John »

Paul wrote:IN tends to underplay the class of warships. P28 is about 3000 tons but is corvette class where in Pakiland 3200ton class warship from Cheen is Frigate.

Rest assured when the cruiser arrives it will not be less than 12000 tons.
The classification is based on the role of the vessel not by displacement. Rajput is much smaller that Shivalik but former is classified as a ddg. Also P28 size grew due to emphasis on endurance and stealth characteristics, orginal plan was for 2000 ton corvette.

IN tends to play safe with the design of new vessels, to devolop a new 12k ton Cruiser would cost billion if not ten billion+ along with all the risk. As i said before i have feeling cruiser will be large AAW surface combatant based on P17A.
member_22539
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by member_22539 »

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 11m11 minutes ago New Delhi, Delhi
The Indian Navy wants at least 198 ships and 600 aircraft by 2027.
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