India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 17 Dec 2015 21:30

schinnas wrote:Posting this in this thread as I believe this may some applications for nuclear simulations that need huge computing power.

I recently visited the Supercomputer Education and Research Center in eye eye yes see and got to chit chat with some Profs there. I was told that NaMo govt has approved an USD 800 Million project to develop a network of super computers with IISc acting as the orchestration center / nodal agency. IISc has a shiny new 1 peta flop Cray super computer imported from Massa, which can be upgraded to multi peta flops. If everything goes per plan, India will have in next few years a network of several petaflop and above large super computers (each of which would rank in top 200 super computers in the world) and about a dozen or more smaller super computers - all of which connected by a secure network. NaMo admininstration seems to act with impressive speed to catch up with China in super computing capabilities.

I was told about weather modeling, etc., as potential use cases, but do believe there are other obvious strategic use cases as well.

Admins - remove this post if you believe any of the information is confidential. I didn't expect information regarding public academic institutions confidential. I was not told that it is confidential (neither was i told it is not).

I believe that there were a series of reports that came out on this. IMO, don't think there is any need to worry. Thanks for the info.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 17 Dec 2015 21:44

With NK working with the Chinese to expand their nuclear program, Russians island hopping closer to the mainland, and growing Chinese maritime assertiveness, there could be a good opportunity to collaborate with the Japanese on a new round of tests. May blunt some of the effects of sanctions.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Dec 2015 00:56

https://twq.elliott.gwu.edu/sites/twq.e ... -Volpe.pdf
3-D Printing the Bomb?The NuclearNonproliferation Challenge

Arevolution in manufacturing is underway that may enable the mostsensitive pieces of a nuclear weapons program to be transferred and producedaround the globe. In the Additive Manufacturing (AM) process, 3-D printingmachines build objects of virtually any shape from digital build files—the essentialdata telling printers how to construct an object—by laying down successive layersof material.1 Since objects are built from scratch, one can make products in shapesand to standards impossible under any other method, and the digital nature of thisautomated process takes most of the skill out of fabrication. AM allows the manufactureof better products, with less effort, and at a fraction of the cost of traditionalmethods. As a result, it is hardly surprising that General Electric,Aerojet Rocketdyne, and the Chinese People’s Liberation Army are alreadyusing AM to print sophisticated metal parts for jet engines, rocket propulsion systems, and fighter aircraft, respectively.2Like many disruptive technologies, however, AM has a dark side. The widespreadadoption of AM will make it easier for countries to acquire nuclearweapons, and more difficult for the international community to detect and stopthem. If building the bomb is like solving a giant jigsaw puzzle, one of thehardest parts is simply getting all the necessary pieces.3 Attempts to buy or buildthese items—such as the components of a gas centrifuge—are fraught withobstacles and set off alarm bells to the existence of a covert weapons program.In contrast, with a 3-D printer and the right digital build files, a country canprint many of the specialized components for a nuclear program quickly, withlittle technical skill, and at low cost. Moreover, hiding such a fabrication effortwould be much easier than under traditional manufacturing methods, renderingobsolete many of the international community’s tools for spotting illicit nuclearactivity. In short, AM may provide a way for countries to print the pieces of thenuclear jigsaw indigenously before anyonenotices.Fortunately, the proliferation potential ofAM has not yet fully materialized, so theUnited States can still lead an internationaleffort to prevent an AM-enabled cascade ofnuclear weapons proliferation before it is too late. T

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Dec 2015 01:00

http://warontherocks.com/2015/12/the-tr ... iferation/
THE TRUTH ABOUT 3-D PRINTING AND NUCLEAR PROLIFERATION

, it is currently easier to produce a conventional weapon than a nuclear weapon using additive manufacturing technology. Second, significant challenges remain in using additive manufacturing to produce components for nuclear weapons. Third, and perhaps most significantly, a focus exclusively on nuclear proliferation by way of additive manufacturing misses the broader problem. As sensitive information and materials become increasingly digital, they elude our traditional tools for controlling who accesses and uses them. This is a challenge we face for weapon of all kinds, including conventional and cyber — it is not a uniquely nuclear problem. Effective solutions will require a comprehensive approach.Additive manufacturing is indeed a “game changer.” This flexible and cost-effective fabrication method has a number of uses, ranging from the rapid production of components for jet engines to the rendering of unique and fully functional replacement human heart valves. Additive manufacturing is a particularly useful tool for producing highly intricate objects that do not require large production runs. It’s a deceptively old technology dating back to the 1980s, when it began to be used for rapid prototyping. Today, use of the 3-D printers — the hardware for the additive manufacturing process — is increasingly common among traditional manufacturers, as well as in public libraries, art departments, and even in the food industry.Without a doubt, weapons proliferation is an unintended consequence and a decidedly negative byproduct of this technology. The article’s authors do a service in highlighting this for the nuclear nonproliferation community. Yet while the widespread availability of 3-D printers and the ease with which computer aided design (CAD) files can be transferred may ultimately affect nuclear proliferation, they are affecting conventional weapons right now. Around the world, do-it-yourself gun enthusiasts are already using CAD files to quickly and cheaply print fully functional firearms at home.
, the Nuclear Suppliers Group currently places controls on the export of maraging steel, one of the only materials that can be used for the components of a uranium-enriching centrifuge. As the article mentions, the flow forming and axis-milling machines used in the traditional manufacturing process of maraging steel are also already controlled, as are the lasers that could be used to enrich uranium. Also, the maraging steel powder that could be used in the additive manufacturing version of centrifuge components is likewise already controlled as a function of being made of maraging steel. There’s nothing about the powder version that makes it more accessible through export channels than traditionally manufactured maraging steel.Second, using 3-D printing to obtain a nuclear weapon is not a quick and easy process. Even if someone has a 3-D printer that can make centrifuge components, products made through additive manufacturing still require a great deal of finishing to become functional. That process requires expertise, and the methods for finishing are still in development. Maraging steel requires a great deal of post-processing, and it has been challenging to manufacture a 3-D printed material that has identical properties to its traditionally manufactured counterpart. This isn’t to say that we shouldn’t get out in front of the problem now, but it just isn’t as much a cause for alarm today as is the use of additive manufacturing to make conventional weapons.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Dec 2015 03:48

Cheap, Reliable, CO2-free Electricity, Now.
http://thorconpower.com/

SafeThorCon is a simple molten salt reactor. Unlike all current reactors, the fuel is in liquid form. If the reactor overheats for whatever reason, ThorCon will automatically shut itself down, drain the fuel from the primary loop, and passively handle the decay heat. There is no need for any operator intervention. In fact there is nothing the operators can do to prevent the drain and cooling. ThorCon is walkaway safe.The ThorCon reactor is 30 m underground. ThorCon has four gas tight barriers between the fuelsalt and the atmosphere. Three of these barriers are more than 25 m underground. Unlike nearly all current reactors, ThorCon operates at near-ambient pressure. In the event of a primary loop rupture, there is no dispersal energy and no phase change. The spilled fuel merely flows to a drain tank where it is cooled. The most troublesome fission products, including strontium-90 and cesium-137, are chemically bound to the salt. They will end up in the drain tank as well.
No New Technology
ThorCon is all about NOW. ThorCon requires no new technology. ThorCon is a straightforward scale-up of the successful Molten Salt Reactor Experiment (MSRE). The MSRE is ThorCon’s pilot plant. There is no technical reason why a full-scale 250 MWe prototype cannot be operating within four years. The intention is to subject this prototype to all the failures and problems that the designers claim the plant can handle. This is the commercial aircraft model, not the Nuclear Regulatory Commission model. As soon as the prototype passes these tests, full-scale production can begin.

vishal · Post by **vishal** » 18 Dec 2015 10:53

India Is Building a Top-Secret Nuclear City to Produce Thermonuclear Weapons

Excerpt: Officials warned its lawyers that the prime minister’s office was running the project. “There is no point fighting this, we were told,” Leo Saldanha, a founding member of the advocacy organization, recalled. “You cannot win.”

Only after construction on the site began that year did it finally become clear to the tribesmen and others that two secretive agencies were behind a project that experts say will be the subcontinent’s largest military-run complex of nuclear centrifuges, atomic-research laboratories, and weapons- and aircraft-testing facilities when it’s completed, probably sometime in 2017. Among the project’s aims: to expand the government’s nuclear research, to produce fuel for India’s nuclear reactors, and to help power the country’s fleet of new submarines.

But another, more controversial ambition, according to retired Indian government officials and independent experts in London and Washington, is to give India an extra stockpile of enriched uranium fuel that could be used in new hydrogen bombs, also known as thermonuclear weapons, substantially increasing the explosive force of those in its existing nuclear arsenal.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 18 Dec 2015 21:17

I thought shakti1 was a plutonium device. Where did uranium come into the picture?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 18 Dec 2015 21:23

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/418 ... hment.html
July 7, 2014 article:

Chitradurga will soon become a nuclear hub once the special Uranium enrichment facility (SMEF) facility comes up in the district. The unit will be the second nuclear fuel source in Karnataka after the Mysore Rare Materials Plant (RMP).

The senior nuclear scientist was of the opinion that a US think-tank which revealed information that Chitradurga would be the second site to produce nuclear fuel in the State conveyed the impression that nobody in the nuclear establishment knew of this.

member_29172 · Post by **member_29172** » 18 Dec 2015 22:16

vishal wrote:India Is Building a Top-Secret Nuclear City to Produce Thermonuclear Weapons

Excerpt: Officials warned its lawyers that the prime minister’s office was running the project. “There is no point fighting this, we were told,” Leo Saldanha, a founding member of the advocacy organization, recalled. “You cannot win.”

Only after construction on the site began that year did it finally become clear to the tribesmen and others that two secretive agencies were behind a project that experts say will be the subcontinent’s largest military-run complex of nuclear centrifuges, atomic-research laboratories, and weapons- and aircraft-testing facilities when it’s completed, probably sometime in 2017. Among the project’s aims: to expand the government’s nuclear research, to produce fuel for India’s nuclear reactors, and to help power the country’s fleet of new submarines.

But another, more controversial ambition, according to retired Indian government officials and independent experts in London and Washington, is to give India an extra stockpile of enriched uranium fuel that could be used in new hydrogen bombs, also known as thermonuclear weapons, substantially increasing the explosive force of those in its existing nuclear arsenal.

Aren't these white morons ever tired of spreading their vile anti Indian propaganda. The new construction is for the upcoming nuclear reactors for energy source, where does this bs of thermonukes come from? bloody morons should first learn how not to mess up the middle east further and create more terrorist organisations before bitching about India. India didn't create ISIS, al-quaida, LeT, Ukraine's neo nazi groups.. morons need to get that stick out of your a$$

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 18 Dec 2015 22:40

Levy's piece is an easy to ridicule article, as SS has shown. I suspect it is partly deterrence intended. Not for Indian market. This project was well underway under UPA itself, and NDA is not likely to hold back, not by a long shot. No one is really in a position to say anything about the project, question our intentions or anything of the sort. The only way anyone is going to stop our non-dependent nuclear programme's trajectory is by force, which is precisely why we need it in the first place. And really, everyone who matters knows that among nuclear powers, India one of the most responsible in terms of proliferation or posturing. It is really a matter of getting used to it. Some of the language in the article is not reflective of this reality.

Look at it also as one of several efforts to bolster Pakistan's "civilian nuclear deal" campaign, or to undermine it. Hard to say.

BTW, I think the British source's comments have been mixed and matched to suit the thrust of the article - a full and faithful reproduction might be interesting, from an academic point of view. The article itself is pointless and a for-the-record sort of thing.

member_29172 · Post by **member_29172** » 18 Dec 2015 22:57

I am not talking about that, I am talking about how blatantly these morons are spreading this vile propaganda and how some obscure environmental group is actively aiding these outsiders to sabotage the national interests. This is high treason, these people need to be kicked out asap. How much more proof do we need... some leo whatever, lowlife scumbags

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 19 Dec 2015 00:12

Alka_P,

As I understand these are domestic environmental NGOs. They are needed and form the useful idiot cadre that is required sometimes when people talk about "zero accountability". Before we tell the P5 and assorted other morons to fu(k off, we first tell them politely "see our NGOs are doing a fabulous job... Isn't your Levy somethingorother the guy who interviewed them?" ...

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 19 Dec 2015 00:36

The obscure environmental group, if funded with Indian money, is a necessary evil. As JEM saar points out, they are useful in setting a liberalist narrative from our side, while we do what we need to quietly. The problem is the Greenpeace type assorted foreign NGOs operating in India - they will obviously be someone's cat's paw.

Now, w.r.t. the NGOs named in that article, the CPI is a beltway bandit. The second one, is a bit different - seems to be an Indian NGO based out of Banashankari, Bengaluru, but,

Started informally in 1996 and registered as a Public Charitable Trust in 1998, ESG's not for profit initiatives respond through a vareity of actions involving research, education, campaign support, and advocacy. We are amongst the foremost proponents in India for the reform of environmental decision making processes working to make them pro-people and pro-environment.

From 2014, Environment Support Group is the India Centre of the Minnesota Studies in International Development, a division of the Learning Abroad Centre of the University of Minnesota, USA.

Source: http://esgindia.org/about-us/index.html

a) Can an NGO be acquired by another like a regular company?
b) Is it possible that these Minnesota connection came about after the announcement of the Chitradurga facility? The Deccan Herald article linked by A_Gupta ji is dated Jul, 2014, and a quick perusal this NGOs website shows the run of the mill green projects; this seems to be the first one in the nuclear field. Hmm.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 19 Dec 2015 01:29

Why beat on NGOs? I hope the tribals were treated with more circumspection than given above. If not GOI has been as respectful of a people's traditions as the invading Muslims or Christians.

At any rate, very ambitious and impressive infrastructure coming up. This is the most important part.

But Gary Samore, who served from 2009 to 2013 as the White House coordinator for arms control and weapons of mass destruction, said there was little misunderstanding. “I believe that India intends to build thermonuclear weapons as part of its strategic deterrent against China,” said Samore. It is unclear, he continued, when India will realize this goal of a larger and more powerful arsenal, but “they will.”

disha · Post by **disha** » 19 Dec 2015 02:51

Sanjaykumar'ji - the article is a piece of crap.

Public lands are public lands and they can be acquired by GOI for public sector projects. The talk about tribals being ill-treated., that is the rag which the westerns always wave after herding their own native populations on marginal lands called 'reservations' and using those lands for cow pastures given to private home steads.

There is nothing new in the farticle. Pakistan's and China's weapons are non-escalatory but India's are. Why? And the farticle got it wrong., enriched uranium for thermo-nuclear warhead? It is fuel for the submarines on their pressurized LWR. India needs at least 5 such if not more and where will the EU come from?

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 19 Dec 2015 02:55

sanjaykumar wrote:Why beat on NGOs? I hope the tribals were treated with more circumspection than given above. If not GOI has been as respectful of a people's traditions as the invading Muslims or Christians.

True, but if GoI is put to scrutiny by NGOs, they are fair game for the same scrutiny. Many of them take money from outside without revealing it, so it is better to have eyes wide open when dealing with them. I am not opposed to NGOs per se, as there are a few services that govt is not equipped to do and are done better by NGOs, but I think it is better to scrutinize an NGOs antecedents when they step into certain sensitive domains. The area this thread covers is as sensitive as it gets.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 23 Dec 2015 23:13

India looking to buy 6 Westinghouse nuclear reactors: report - Domain-b.com

member_29247 · Post by **member_29247** » 24 Dec 2015 00:50

With in NGOs there is a class of NGOs that are classified EOBC
Educationally Other Backward in Class.

They need to be electrified with Nuclear power to see the light.

This is called

Tamaso maa Jyothirgamaya ( lead the EZ Lazy to Light)

......
OM shanti shanti means

Use Nuclear power peacefully even on them

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Dec 2015 18:46

"Top secret" facilities that have been well publicised in the media and on the internet for more than a decade. The purpose of the RMP, i.e. the production of fuel for India's submarines, is openly stated by the GOI. Article is a poor quality propaganda piece. Other non proliferation Ayatollah types do this sort of thing much better. Levy needs to concentrate on topics more befitting his intellectual capacity.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Dec 2015 18:50

Russia to build six nuclear units in India

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 30 Dec 2015 21:23

http://www.aame.in/2015/10/fbr-600-indi ... -fast.html

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 07 Jan 2016 20:20

This could be very significant for India, in managing nuclear waste or production of heavy water (probably reducing cost to produce heavy water by 10x in very near future - the process is more efficient than any other I know of)
Graphene sieves deuterium from hydrogen

See more at: viewtopic.php?p=1962274#p1962274

KLP Dubey · Post by **KLP Dubey** » 08 Jan 2016 22:30

Amber G. wrote:This could be very significant for India, in managing nuclear waste or production of heavy water (probably reducing cost to produce heavy water by 10x in very near future - the process is more efficient than any other I know of)
Graphene sieves deuterium from hydrogen

See more at: viewtopic.php?p=1962274#p1962274

Interesting science, but I doubt if there will be any practical impact. First, this requires ionizing the isotopes, which will cost a huge amount of energy. Second - and probably the killer - is that the membrane actually sieves protons 10x faster than deuterons. Few will be interested in a membrane that will need to permeate a huge amount of water to concentrate the small amount of D (or T). The main interest would be in a membrane that can efficiently pull out small amounts of D or T from large amounts of H.

If you are coming to the ANS meeting, you'll hear about some new advances that might have practical promise for this

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 09 Jan 2016 08:44

^^^ Thanks

Just cutting and pasting from Yale Environment 360

06 JAN 2016: GRAPHENE MEMBRANE CAN CLEAN
NUCLEAR WASTEWATER, NEW RESEARCH SHOWS

University of Manchester
Microscopic image of graphene membrane
Microscopic graphene membranes can effectively filter radioactive particles from nuclear reactor wastewater at room temperature, researchers from the University of Manchester have shown. Writing in the journal Science, the researchers demonstrated that graphene membranes can act as a sieve, separating different varieties of hydrogen — both radioactive and non-radioactive isotopes — from water. The new technology could also be scaled to produce significant amounts of so-called "heavy water," which is a non-radioactive component that is required in large quantities to produce nuclear energy. The graphene technology is 10 times cheaper and more efficient than current methods of producing heavy water. "This is really the first membrane shown to distinguish between subatomic particles," said University of Manchester researcher Marcelo Lozada-Hidalgo.

KLP Dubey · Post by **KLP Dubey** » 09 Jan 2016 09:03

Amber G. wrote:^^^ Thanks
Just cutting and pasting from Yale Environment 360
06 JAN 2016: GRAPHENE MEMBRANE CAN CLEAN
NUCLEAR WASTEWATER, NEW RESEARCH SHOWS

University of Manchester
Microscopic image of graphene membrane
Microscopic graphene membranes can effectively filter radioactive particles from nuclear reactor wastewater at room temperature, researchers from the University of Manchester have shown. Writing in the journal Science, the researchers demonstrated that graphene membranes can act as a sieve, separating different varieties of hydrogen — both radioactive and non-radioactive isotopes — from water. The new technology could also be scaled to produce significant amounts of so-called "heavy water," which is a non-radioactive component that is required in large quantities to produce nuclear energy. The graphene technology is 10 times cheaper and more efficient than current methods of producing heavy water. "This is really the first membrane shown to distinguish between subatomic particles," said University of Manchester researcher Marcelo Lozada-Hidalgo.

Typical overselling by chemists who don't understand process issues.

Now that I look over the RSC news item you posted, I was gratified to find that another chemical engineer (whom I know well) immediately picked up the same process limitation that I did:

Chemical engineer Karl Johnson at the University of Pittsburgh in Pennsylvania, US, calls the isotope enrichment demonstration a ‘very significant achievement’, but believes the sieves would be more useful if they worked the other way around – that is, preferring deuterium over hydrogen. That way, he says, you would only need a little electrical energy to transport the relatively small amount of deuterium across the sieve, rather than a lot of energy to transport the much greater amount of hydrogen.

durairaaj · Post by **durairaaj** » 09 Jan 2016 19:15

^"Typical overselling by chemists who don't understand process issues. "
Though, I don't deny this, a separation factor of 10 makes it look like an attractive technology.
Regarding the chemical engineer's comment:Typical industrial scale heavy water extraction do not use single technology. They use a cascade of different technologies that operate efficiently at different purification level.
considering the electrical energy involved and the separation factor of 10, I believe this will be used in water which already has a D2O concentration of 10%. This can potentially reduce the number of cycles in stripping columns, but not as much as 10 times of total cost as claimed by the chemist.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Jan 2016 22:29

KLPD knows his stuff. Please listen and learn..

KLP Dubey · Post by **KLP Dubey** » 09 Jan 2016 23:43

durairaaj wrote:^"Typical overselling by chemists who don't understand process issues. "
Though, I don't deny this, a separation factor of 10 makes it look like an attractive technology.
Regarding the chemical engineer's comment:Typical industrial scale heavy water extraction do not use single technology. They use a cascade of different technologies that operate efficiently at different purification level.
considering the electrical energy involved and the separation factor of 10, I believe this will be used in water which already has a D2O concentration of 10%. This can potentially reduce the number of cycles in stripping columns, but not as much as 10 times of total cost as claimed by the chemist.

I agree, which is why the "overselling" comment. Unfortunately the economics of a hydrogen-selective membrane won't change much unless you have a very concentrated D2O stream already. E.g., to purify 100L water containing 1% D2O you have to remove 99L water, whereas for 10% D2O you still have to remove 90L of water, which won't change the economics much. The order of magnitude reduction will happen only at levels of 90+% D2O, where you now have to only remove 10L water.

So this might be used as a "finishing" step, say to dehydrate the D2O after it has been enriched to say 90%+ purity (if it can compete with well-known distillation which should work fine for that step). But hard to imagine this will be workhorse stage. I doubt whether existing processes which are optimized to death and running smoothly will be altered unless a game-changer (not incremental) technology appears....

disha · Post by **disha** » 09 Jan 2016 23:52

Supratik wrote:I thought shakti1 was a plutonium device. Where did uranium come into the picture?

The uranium is NOT for TNW. It is for the Arihants. The simple mendicants who roam around the seas silently in the search for the true knowledge.

Though a U-238/U-235 tamper helps.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 10 Jan 2016 04:29

The order of magnitude reduction will happen only at levels of 90+% D2O, where you now have to only remove 10L water.

Actually that is indicated in the paper, I referred to..to make 99% pure D2O further refined..

On aside - I happened to have a son whose PhD is in a related field (physics, of course

- he does not seem to be too excited.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 10 Jan 2016 13:16

Fast reactor fuel cycle facility at Kalpakkam soon - The Hindu

The country’s first Fast Reactor Fuel Cycle Facility (FRFCP) is coming up at Kalpakkam at a cost of Rs. 9,600 crore, said S.A.V. Satya Murty, director of Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research, Kalpakkam.

“This is a first of its kind plant in the country. It is an integrated facility that will have a fuel fabrication, fuel reprocessing, reprocessed uranium oxide, core sub-assemblies plants and waste management facility all in the single complex,” he said.

He was delivering the inaugural address on “Nuclear power for energy security for enhancing quality of life” at InoVIT-2016, South India-level science contest for school children on Saturday.

Talking about the three-stage nuclear power programme, he said, “In stage I, we have Pressurised Heavy Water Reactors (PHWR) where we already have 18 operating power plants, and four are under construction.”

Fast Breeder Reactors come in stage II. “The 500 MWe Prototype Fast Breeder Reactor at Kalpakkam is under commissioning, and it will become operational in a few months,” Mr. Satya Murty said. The third stage comprises thorium based reactors. Noting that fast reactors play an important role for energy security, he said, “Two 600 MWe Commercial Fast Breeder Reactors are in the advanced stage of design. Already, we are designing Metal Fuel Test Reactors for next generation of reactors. By 2030, we are planning for Metal Fuel Breeder Reactor of 1,000 MWe.”

He said that nuclear power, which is a clean and green source, is an inevitable option for India.

Coal reserves

Explaining this, he said the estimated coal reserves in the country was 200 billion tonnes, all of which cannot be used for electricity generation alone and was also required by steel and chemical industry.

“Coal can meet demands for 130 years if used for electricity generation alone. Hence, it is essential to reduce coal consumption for electricity,” he explained. He noted that solar plants were costly and disposal of waste was a problem.

durairaaj · Post by **durairaaj** » 10 Jan 2016 15:15

KLP Dubey wrote:
durairaaj wrote:^"Typical overselling by chemists who don't understand process issues. "
Though, I don't deny this, a separation factor of 10 makes it look like an attractive technology.
...
... Unfortunately the economics of a hydrogen-selective membrane won't change much ... The order of magnitude reduction will happen only at levels of 90+% D2O, where you now have to only remove 10L water.
....

I guess we are in the same page. In the end what matters is total energy cost.
Would like to discuss, why I chose 10% purity and not 90% D2O purity based on my back of envelope calculation.

Typical D2O extraction involved Sulfide liquid extraction process is used upto 10% from 150 ppm (Where most of the energy goes). Then it is concentrated to 99.+% purity using vacuum distillation, which is an energy intensive process with a separation factor of only ~ 1.

Now the choices for 10 kg of D2O starting with 10% purity from sulfide process:
1) electrolyze out 90kg of H2O. [My calculation]
2) Vacuum evaporate out 90 kg of H2O [Current process. In reality more than 200 kgs of water has to be evaporated out]
3) Vacuum evaporate 89 kg and electrolyze out 1 kg. [KLPD calculation].

Evaporating 89 kg of water is almost equal to 90 kg of water.
Key Question: Is cost of vacuum evaporating 90 kg of water is comparable to cost of electrolyzing 90 kg of water?

Use of electrochemical process is being studied world over with separation factor ~ 2 or 3. The process mentioned here shows a separation factor ~ 10 makes it a bit interesting.

I totally agree that if precursor for e.chem method has higher D2O concn, it reduces the energy requirement significantly. Can that be achieved without vacuum distillation, where there is a significant energy loss as well as low recovery.

I found these References later on to support my point of view.
1) FAS - Heavy Water Production check the last paragraph
2) Scribd presentation Check slide # 51.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Jan 2016 16:00

Q:Given the separation of civil/mil N-facilities under the disastrous N-deal,whose aim is the freezing of India's N-potential,plus perpetual slavery to foreign fuel for foreign reactors,what is a conservative estimation of our annual production of N-warheads? With Pak speeding ahead with at least 155-200,and China,India's estimated at a lowly 125,JV.We are severely inferior to the Sino-Pak JV inventory. "Power stems from the barrel of a nuclear gun",to paraphrase Mao.

Given "Supreme Commander" Marshal Kim's "loud fart" and Pak's accelerated N-WMD programme,India ahs little alternative but to accelerate development and increasing its own survivable N-arsenal.It would be worthwhile to draw up a roadmap as to how many N-warheads we can produce /yr with such a programme and with the new reactors coming on stream shortly.

habal · Post by **habal** » 10 Jan 2016 16:22

Philip wrote:Q:Given the separation of civil/mil N-facilities under the disastrous N-deal,whose aim is the freezing of India's N-potential,plus perpetual slavery to foreign fuel for foreign reactors,what is a conservative estimation of our annual production of N-warheads? With Pak speeding ahead with at least 155-200,and China,India's estimated at a lowly 125,JV.We are severely inferior to the Sino-Pak JV inventory. "Power stems from the barrel of a nuclear gun",to paraphrase Mao.

around 2 decades ago, we had enough for 1k weapons. Now how much more has been added to that is your guess as good as mine. To destroy pakistan we just need 1 each for lahore, rawalpindi, islamabad, and maybe jhang/gujranwala/bahawalpur/lyallpur. That is the end of functional pakistan. The rest is for China & US only.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 11 Jan 2016 04:06

Meanwhile it seems (to me at least) that without much fanfare India's progress with overseas partners in nuclear power continues and looking better, although not too much noise has been made in media or in this dhaga..

Few points ..
- Mithi Virdi (Bhavnagar, Gujarat)- 6 AP1000: Negotiations between NPCIL and Westinghouse are likely to be finalized in 2016, (per news sources quoting Indian cabinet)
- NaMo and Putin -- progress towards new site for VVERs in India.
- Ratification India-Australia Civil Nuclear Cooperation Agreement
- "Administrative arrangement for the implementation of civil nuclear cooperation agreement" between the USA and India have now been signed. ( "international and domestic concerns" over India's liability laws have been "resolved" with the 2015 establishment of the India Nuclear Insurance Pool.)

(Mithi Virdi is one of ten proposed sites for new nuclear power plants given in-principle approval by the GoI. PHWR at Gorakhpur, Chutka , Bhimpur, Kaiga, Mahi Banswara as well as Kudankulam(VVER) ; Jaitapur (EPR); Kovvada (ESBWR), Haripur (VVER).

-India and Russia signed 16 agreements during Modi's Christsmas visit to Moscow.
(Putin said that unit 2 of the Russian-built Kudankulam nuclear power plant in Tamil Nadu will be commissioned within weeks and that negotiations are at an advanced stage for units 3 and 4.
and identifying the second site in India for an additional six units.

Not to mention, items like:
-India receives first uranium shipment from Canada
-India, Japan reach agreement on nuclear cooperation
India and UK sign civil nuclear agreement (and discuss climate change in Nov 2015)

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 11 Jan 2016 12:45

Nuclear India through a Western Eye - Rajiv Nayan, IDSA

In the middle of December 2015, the US-based Center for Public Integrity came out with a series of four articles on different aspects of India’s nuclear programme. Of the four articles, one is on Jaduguda, the second on the Kudankulam nuclear reactor, the third on the thermonuclear device and the fourth on India’s nuclear security. Adrian Levy, the journalist who co-authored The Deception in which he recorded known and unknown facts about Pakistan's nuclear acquisitions, is either the sole or co-author of these articles.

Some of these articles have been partially or fully reproduced in other publications, including Foreign Policy. The tone or tenor of all the four articles is quite negative in terms of attempting to sensationalise the Indian nuclear science programme. The Center for Public Integrity is supposed to be an investigative news organisation, which has been apparently established to ‘serve democracy’.

Has this series of four articles been written to fulfil the objectives of the Center for Public Integrity? Unfortunately, both the main author and the organisation have failed to really fulfil the objectives. Moreover, there is the question of Levy’s own credibility as an investigative journalist. There is hardly any investigative journalism in the four articles. All are overwhelmingly written with the help of reports which have been published earlier or have been appearing in the news for years.

Most of the facts used in the four articles are available on the internet, and are quite well known. The reports, on the basis of which most of these four articles have been written, were refuted by the official nuclear establishment as well as independent scientists working in universities and research institutes. At one place, Levy accuses the Indian government of suppressing those reports. In actual fact, most of the reports and counterpoints are available in the public domain. Not only have the authors by and large overlooked these counterpoints, but they are also dismissive about them.

For instance, the article on uranium mining, titled “India’s nuclear industry pours its wastes into a river of death and disease”, mentions the Bihar government establishing a committee to inquire about the diseases prevalent in the area. And it claims that the researchers who conducted the study concluded that the people living in the Jaduguda area were ‘affected by radiation.’ The truth, however, is that the report of the committee (established on the order of the Bihar government and whose members included some doctors from the Bihar medical college) concluded: “the cases examined had congenital limb anomalies, diseases due to genetic abnormalities like thalassemia major and retinitis, pigmentosa, moderate to gross splenomegaly due to chronic malarial infection (as this is a hyper endemic area), malnutrition, post encephalitic and post-head injury sequel.” In short, this report by specialists did not find a single person ‘suffering from radiation related diseases.’

Further, the ‘investigative report’ on the Jaduguda mining complex propagates horror stories. And it spreads unscientific tales amounting to encouragement of superstition, which is antithetical to democracy that the Center for Public Integrity is supposed to promote. Further, a number of old reports cited in this article lack sound methodology and scientific basis. For instance, the methodology used by Dr. Ghose (cited in the article on the Jaduguda complex) to calculate gross alpha activity in water has not been endorsed by any of the international accredited agencies.

This article on uranium mining also refers to the ‘country’s secret nuclear mining and fuel fabrication programme’. It is not clear what the author means by ‘secret’ and how it is linked to health and the environment, which appear to be the twin concerns of the article. At the least, the Jaduguda complex is not secret. All the mines and milling stations are listed on the Uranium Corporation of India Limited (UCIL) website. Similarly, India does not hide the sites of its nuclear fuel fabrication. In Indian Parliament, questions relating to fuel fabrication installations are answered and discussions have been taking place.

It is true that India does not make its uranium ore production public. However, the Indian government reveals the production of fuel assemblies in the Nuclear Fuel Complex. For example, the government has stated that in the financial year 2014-2015, the Hyderabad-based Nuclear Fuel Complex produced 1252 Metric Tonnes of fuel assemblies.

Similarly, the article on the Kudankulam reactor titled “India’s Nuclear Solution to Global Warming is Generating Huge Domestic Protests” maintains that the reactor is vulnerable to a tsunami and lists other safety problems. The Department of Atomic Energy (DAE), the Nuclear Power Corporation of India Limited and the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board (AERB) have stated that the design features of the reactor and the emergency preparedness in the facility have taken all the existing dangers into account. However, activists like Levy are not willing to accept any technical or policy explanation.

Another article, “India’s nuclear explosive materials are vulnerable to theft, US officials and experts say”, maintains, mostly on the basis of anonymous statements made by some Indian and American officials, that India’s nuclear security faces the problem of training and equipment. The article quotes one retired Indian police official asking for more manpower and weapons. If any security organisation were to be asked whether it wants an increase in its manpower and armoury, the answer will always be yes. Sometimes, the agency may really require extra manpower and weapons, but at other additionalities may be required for creating a sound reserve force.

Be that as it may, the security agencies manning key nuclear installations state that they are quite capable of managing the current level of physical security challenges. Of course, training or awareness of emerging threats, review of new technological developments, and manpower for protection of fast increasing nuclear reactors are necessary. This futuristic projection should not mean that current nuclear installations are insecure.

Has the series of articles served democracy? It does not seem so. It appears as if, after writing several revealing reports and a book on Pakistan’s nuclear programme, Adrian Levy was under some pressure to perform a balancing act by tarnishing the Indian nuclear programme.

One of the four articles is on the thermonuclear device, which democratic India developed to strengthen its nuclear deterrence vis-à-vis an overtly authoritarian China and a farcically democratic Pakistan. Like a section of the US non-proliferation community that relishes supporting and sympathising with China and Pakistan, Levy and the Center for Public Integrity have followed the same approach. That India relies on the thermonuclear device for its security is declared policy. India had exercised restraint till 1998, and went nuclear only after it had witnessed no nuclear disarmament, continued accumulation of nuclear weapons by the countries recognised under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and worse, a NPT member country like China acting as the kingpin of nuclear proliferation that had benefited Pakistan. It is conventional wisdom that democratic India did not clandestinely acquire nuclear weapons and continues to feel compelled to develop its arsenal even if slowly or of a smaller size.

The article on the thermonuclear device also mentions several uncertain facts such as the new site for uranium enrichment or hydrogen bomb making and the real success or failure of the thermonuclear device, which have been sufficiently discussed before. Alarmingly titled “India is Building a Top Secret Nuclear City to Produce Thermonuclear Weapons, Experts Say”, this article argues that ‘an extra stockpile of enriched uranium fuel’ used in Indian hydrogen bombs may be considered a ‘provocation’ by China and Pakistan. Only a novice would believe that China or Pakistan will review their nuclear strategies, on the basis of these already known, but unsubstantiated, facts appearing in the media.

Further, the authors of these articles would have done great service by exposing ‘abuses of power, corruption and betrayal of public trust by powerful public and private institutions, using the tools of ‘investigative journalism’—the mandate of the Center of Public Integrity. But other than casually mentioning a couple of unsubstantiated corruption cases, the articles have not really pushed the Center’s mandate.

In one of the articles on the protest against the Kudankulam reactor, Adrian Levy criticises the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board (AERB), the Indian regulatory body, by relying on what one former chairman has stated. In the process, he ignores or ridicules other versions. Further, he has not objectively examined the shocking misuse of funds by NGOs engaged in the protests. On the contrary, he is critical of the government for cracking down on dubious NGOs. In fact, he should have recommended that the Indian government make public its report on these NGOs. That would have alerted the Indian people and all the funders. Is it ethical to obtain funds for one purpose and use it for something different?

Similarly, an investigative journalist should have more thoroughly examined the role of the church in fanning the movement. Further, there is also the need to explain the sudden prosperity of environmental activists in India. Good scholars or journalists need to provide an objective perspective. Pamphleteering has a very limited role.

The last of the four articles, on India’s nuclear security, too, looks like an extension of old rumours/reports. It either lacks facts or exaggerates some stray incidents. This raises the puzzling question about the objective behind bringing out these misnamed ‘investigative’, and in actual fact extremely negative, stories on Indian nuclear policy and installations. A couple of articles clearly indicate that a section of Western nuclear community wants more information on India’s nuclear science programme, and especially its nuclear weapons programme. For this purpose, it has been using not just government delegations but also NGOs. The media now seems to have become a new partner in this endeavour.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 11 Jan 2016 18:47

Is there any news on the Gorakhpur Nuclear Plant (Haryana)? There doesn't seem to be any movement in 2 years.

member_29247 · Post by **member_29247** » 12 Jan 2016 01:15

In Manuguru Khamam district Heavy water plant, ( I had supplied bubble cap trays and SS distilling columns in my Godrej &Boyce avatar)) for Ion exchange process between H2S and H20.
A reaction is carried out in distilling column seen in Petro chemical cracking of Crude oil/naptha
then vacuum distillation....

Similar plant exists in Kota

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 12 Jan 2016 02:37

JTull wrote:Is there any news on the Gorakhpur Nuclear Plant (Haryana)? There doesn't seem to be any movement in 2 years.

In 2014 (jan?) there silyanas and are few blips in MSM eg : Roadmap to Generate Power from Nuclear Energy

The Government has accorded financial sanction for two more projects namely Gorakhpur Haryana Anu Vidyut Pariyojana (GHAVP) Units 1&2 (2x700 MW) and Kudankulam Nuclear Power Projects (KKNPP) Units 3&4 (2X1000 MW) with a total capacity of 3400 MW. These are being readied for start of construction in 2016

.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 12 Jan 2016 04:11

xposting as there may be some interest here wrt to Pu-238 production..

..It would be interesting to know if India does plan to produce Plutonium-238 on it's own. US just restarted production last year for use on its Deep Space probes. But, we might as well buy it from Russia

It may be difficult to get from Russia..

.. I think even Russia has stopped producing it and it's supply is running low -- at least they have not sold any to anyone since 2009)

From what I remember process to produce Pu238 goes/went something like -- some may find it interesting :

In a nuclear reactor U238 absorbs a neutron and one gets U-239 which beta-decays into Np-239 and then to Pu-239. (That is our source of Pu-239 in reactor used in bombs). Some Pu-239 absorbs neutron and become Pu-240. (That some may know, pollutes the bomb material, and one needs to remove it if one is making a bomb

). As time goes on some Pu-240 absorbs another neutron and becomes Pu-241 which is highly radioactive (half-life 14 years) and beta-decays to Am-241 and Am-241 alpha decays to Np-237.

Now Np-237 is separated into a special box and put back into the reactor, it absorbs another neutron and we have Np-238. Np-238 is highly radioactive (half life in days), emits beta decay and you get
Pu-238 !! All you have to do now is to remove that box, and chemically remove all remaining Np-238 to get Pu-238..

If that sounds complicated, it is very complicated and high tech. (Those RTG batteries used to costs roughly around $8 million/Kg or so.. I think even Russia has stopped producing it and it's supply is running low. so Oak Ridge National Laboratory recently (just a few weeks ago) announced the production of 50 grams of plutonium-238 considered very important in re-establishing a U.S. stockpile of Pu-238 for use as a power source on deep-space missions. ORNL has been developing the capability over the past couple of years using it High Flux Isotope Reactor. From what I know US at present has stockpile of only about 35 Kg (about half is not new and sort of 'expired' -- left over from the Savannah River production decades ago - Pu-238 purchased from Russia is about 17Kg only)

Pu-238 is an alpha emitter with half-life of 87 years so ideal for RTG.

Just an aside - Louis Alvarez (when he was at Los Alamos) used to keep a piece of Pu on his desk as paper weight. It is fairly safe to touch it as alpha rays will not pass through thin layer of paper or your skin. (outer layer of skin is dead anyway so it does not matter

).. just don't eat it.