PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Dec 2015 18:59

^^^

Original $6 billion was for JV of some sorts. New lower figure probably is more for MKI-type of customizations for the PAK-FA. Russians will do all the work with some systems provided by the Indians. Customizations will be mutually beneficial and I'm sure Russians will use them for their own variant but will replace any Indian parts with their own.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 23 Dec 2015 23:37

IF the engine for the AMCA works out to Indian satisfaction .. , then the "FGFA" becomes expendable

FGFA is not just about one issue. On the other hand, by AMCA engine if you mean American engines for AMCA then the American engines are the most suited for point defense onlee. Beyond point defense, the engines and the AMCA and pilots will also have to "drag" American interests in international areas. One can see that in Iraq where not just engines but many fighter jet entirely, paid for already, have been missing.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Dec 2015 23:48

The Su-30 program has clearly frustrated the IAF. They like the plane, frustrated with the lackadaisical support from Sukhoi. That's the reason behind the cynicism on the PAKFA and also the real reason behind the push for Rafale.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Dec 2015 23:54

Original $6 billion was for JV of some sorts. New lower figure probably is more for MKI-type of customizations for the PAK-FA

MKI was a revival of Sukhoi. Even people on BR laughed at that effort, along with others. Sukhoi itself was unsure integrating so many things. But it worked - risks were taken and everyone was the better for it.

FGFA is not an MKI, the Russians are aware of the "risk", cannot say the same about Indians, based on IAF speak. One has to note that both sides have not wavered from day one - the stories have been about the same, with teh exception of news outlets from Russia (understandably biased).

What Russia is offering is trust, which India has declined so far. And, IMHO, rightfully so. As I have stated umpteen times a "5th Gen" plane means totally diff things to diff AFs.

FGFA is a bunch of issues, not one.

On the other hand (still gathering info) my read is that the GE offer is a transfer of technologies - one that not many in the world have. So, not sure how the US can yank the chain there. Not like something is coming from the US in a black box. The engine is co-designed to some extent (based on the present GE engine) and co-produced in India. So, unless I am missing something - and I may be - do not know how it translates into a high risk.

Furthermore (as stated earlier) if MP (not me) is confident that India will turn into an aeropsace hub in a space of 5-10 years, then there is something happening that perhaps we are not aware of.

This is not about how bad Russia is - they are real good, but how good the US is. As simple as that. ???????????

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 24 Dec 2015 00:08

vishvak wrote:FGFA is not just about one issue. On the other hand, by AMCA engine if you mean American engines for AMCA then the American engines are the most suited for point defense onlee. Beyond point defense, the engines and the AMCA and pilots will also have to "drag" American interests in international areas. One can see that in Iraq where not just engines but many fighter jet entirely, paid for already, have been missing.

As of September, Iraqi F-16s (I assume that's what you're referring to) had started bombing ISIS positions. When did they go missing? Or are you referring to the delay in delivery, which was primarily down to the pilot training program running behind schedule after the main training base (Balad Air Base) came under ISIS threat, causing the training to be shifted to Arizona.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 24 Dec 2015 00:17

srai wrote:^^^

Original $6 billion was for JV of some sorts. New lower figure probably is more for MKI-type of customizations for the PAK-FA. Russians will do all the work with some systems provided by the Indians. Customizations will be mutually beneficial and I'm sure Russians will use them for their own variant but will replace any Indian parts with their own.

The development ship has sailed. Buying even a half-price ticket after, is money down the drain. The $3.7 billion the Russians are demanding for localization and however much ToT they're willing to transfer, should ideally be negotiated as a package along with the main PAK FA acquisition contract, after the development has concluded. Handing over a huge chunk of capital at this point, makes no sense. Its main outcome will be to strip the MoD of the leverage needed to negotiate prices for the actual aircraft.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Dec 2015 00:42

And, Indians are comparing India with Iraq?

IS India today the same India of 1990s - when the MKI was thought about? Or is there a healthy delta on the +ve side?

I would pitch for India having improved enough - in areas of meaning to this discussion - to be taken rather/very seriously on the world stage. Granted SC seat, etc are yet to come, but in areas of air crafts, etc, it is not the old India.

Or is it?

I think the AMCA has turned a few heads within India, including the IAF. The AMCA will be a better plane than the FGFA for sure - again, from an Indian PoV, when one considers both for purely IAF use.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 24 Dec 2015 01:03

The $3.7 billion the Russians are demanding for localization and however much ToT they're willing to transfer, should ideally be negotiated as a package along with the main PAK FA acquisition contract
..
Its main outcome will be to strip the MoD of the leverage needed to negotiate prices for the actual aircraft

Localisation is demanded by Indian side, in particular IAF, so how come MoD it is separate from negotiations. I agree AMCA has turned a few heads but why not have a bird in hand as well, localized to specs and ToT per agreements. It is a high risk to have American inputs in anything more than point defense, it is like melee with shield alone and writing dossiers with another hand to explain how we have not crossed 'international' lines.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Dec 2015 01:10

IAF does not want a Russian 5th gen.

It is the labs that want the technologies and not the plane itself.

I think, much like the Rafale, Modi in his infinite wisdom to keep everything greased will order 68 PAK-FAs. And the IAF will not be happy and neither will the Labs.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 24 Dec 2015 01:20

NRao wrote:IAF does not want a Russian 5th gen.

It is the labs that want the technologies and not the plane itself.

I think, much like the Rafale, Modi in his infinite wisdom to keep everything greased will order 68 PAK-FAs. And the IAF will not be happy and neither will the Labs.

If we buy the plane then the platform will be ours entirely, unlike with LCA we can, at the most, shoot Brahmos (Air launched, post certification) - all air launched Brahmos even - from within our borders. Remember Kargil war and 'international' pressures and concerns loudly about nuclear flash point, that led the PM to keep fighting from within the borders onlee - while Pakis got to later declare that the Paki army was involved. The Labs, on the other hand, obviously do not need entire fighter jets anyway.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Dec 2015 02:35

If we buy the plane

Which plane?

As far as I know, the IAF was willing to skimp down to so 60 odd PAK-FAs. However, they have been consistently opposed to a "FGFA" - with the exception of the very first time when "India" said they would like some 40 odd modifications in the "FGFA" as compared to the PAK-FA - which did not sit well with the Russians.

The current offer is for the FGFA and not the PAK-FA - two different planes. And what the IAF is saying is very simple. After paying Russia the $3+ billion, for whatever, the IAF will still have to shell out billions for the production plane. So, per *their* computation, it will be too expensive. So, per IAF, no go.

Br is fond of extending the confusion between the PAK-FA and FGFA. One needs to specify which one to have a decent discussion.

Then ................................

I do not think India wants to have an expeditionary force. But, the writing is on the wall - like it or not. IMHO, it is up to China and how she *behaves*. And, if that becomes a need, from an Indian PoV, the Russian model will not hold water. It will have to be a US one.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Dec 2015 02:39

The Labs, on the other hand, obviously do not need entire fighter jets anyway.

You need to convey that to the Russians. That is exactly what India has been saying - the plane is too expensive. And, therefore the argument that Russia is trying to get funds from India.

Boss, the engine is not even ready for the PAK-FA - that comes in 2018 at the earliest. So, tack on another couple of billion to support their R&D and then a few more for buying them for the Indian planes.

Then comes the ammo.

I think India will take that offer if it were around a billion. Best is for India to get 60 odd PAK-FA as the IAF has suggested.

But then the Russians will not get a PAK-FA in time (outside of the noise RT et al make).

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Dec 2015 04:08

The definition of FGFA has changed. Original vision was a two-seater with significant Indian R&D involvement. Now "FGFA" is more and more like PAK-FA-MKI and with the "MKI" part being further diluted due to costs and other reasons.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Dec 2015 05:27

I do not think the definition has changed (btw, you seem to be talking of the configuration, which has changed). So, FGFA always has meant an Indian defined plane based on the PAK-FA. What was unique and still remains so, is the level of Indian participation. The first phase got of well , they defined what the FGFA was/is. The next phase was R&D and actual design, development. This is where the two are stuck.

The other dimension was that the Indian labs got first hand experience in design development. Which meant access to the PAK-FA data. Which the Russians said no. Heck, if we are to believe the IAF no one has had access to the PAK-FA so far!!!@ go figure.

This is way beyond MKI.

I think if India got hold of a PAK-FA they could MKIize it without much help. Might take some time. Point being they *really* do not need Russian help beyond a certain limit. Not worth billions for sure.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Dec 2015 08:27

^^^NRao - very good points. Thanks.

Please correct me If I'm wrong here - wouldn't PAK-FA in present form along with some 40 odd modifications suggested by IAF simply be an extension of Su-30MKI in our service? Knowing that FGFA is not on horizon and whatever IAF knows about PAK-FA, it is looking at ordering the reduced number to fill space with Su-30MKI++ aircraft...so, the numbers and price need to be seen in context of what value add IAF feels PAK-FA (with required modifications) is going to do.

While the present Su-30MKI fleet undergoes deep upgrade to 'Super-Flanker' standard, IAF inducts PAK-FA instead of Su-35 or more Su-30MKI.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 24 Dec 2015 09:23

I think this offer is good. Pay Russians USD3-4 Billion dollars and get right to:-

1. Manufacture + upgrade 300 T-50s with Indian, foreign or Russian components.

2. Get right to export, repair, maintain, integrate weapons and manufacture spare parts.

3. Do it through Pvt Compay like Chota Ambani or Pari Baba.

4. Get tech, metallurgy, machine tools for engines, gear box, fuel injection system, avionics, FBW, hydraulics, electricals, ejection system etc.

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Dec 2015 15:48

^^^

No one's going to give you all that!

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 24 Dec 2015 19:41

That's why we will pay USD 3 BILLION

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Dec 2015 20:13

You can't simply pay co-fund on a JV on a 5th generation fighter type and expect to walk away with all the know how, metallurgy, and walk away with rights to export the aircraft and its spare parts. Why do you think Russia would agree to something like that at any cost?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Dec 2015 21:22

wouldn't PAK-FA in present form along with some 40 odd modifications suggested by IAF simply be an extension of Su-30MKI in our service?

There are two aspects to this FGFA story: first and foremost to get the IAF the latest-n-greatest "5th Gen" plane and second, but no less important than the first, is that Indian Labs actually get experience in actually designing and developing (NOT manufacturing) a "5th Gen" plane. The idea WRT the Labs was to gain cradle-to-grave, or the famous life cycle, experience. The expectations of the Labs was no small expectation - think about it. What took Sukhoi decades to learn, the Indian Labs MAY have been exposed within 2-3 years - that was the expectation.

Now go back to the first heady days of FGFA. Russia (Sukhoi) provides a peak at the T-50 and the Indians respond by saying they have 40 odd changes including a dual seat plane (not to be confused with a trainer). The best as we can tell is that the 40 odd changes were based on what teh IAF (the user) needed, point being this was more than likely not a Labs requirement. However, the Labs did have an interest in such matter - they were promised by teh Russians that they would get to "Design and Develop" - a full-fledged R&D effort as far as the Indian Labs were concerned - and you cannot blame the Indian Labs for this - anyone in that predicament would get excited. Recall, the two sides went even further - talked about IP, who gets what, etc.

So, to answer you question about "extension of MKI" - not IMHO. This was expected to be a complete, brand new effort in design and development. There was nothing in common with the PAK-FA - Indian plane was a dual seat, with a much larger wing, etc. Recall?

IMHO this story is rather similar to the F-18 A/B/C/D vs. F-18 E/F, do we give the new plane a new number, since they are so different.

Then came the definition phase and $295 mil from India.

Then, IMHO, came the cold feet from Sukhoi (not Russia). Design and Development meant - and it was the expectation of the Indians - access to all pertinent details of the air craft. Something they agreed to - I have to guess without thinking.

I will stop there because I am repeating myself.

Two point:
1) MKI was system integration and design/dev by Sukhoi - everything was done by Sukhoi, with some Indian looking-over-the-shoulders. India had a lot of say because of Indian/French/Israeli "stuff". BUT, Indians never got to participate in the design (MKI was a cool 2 ton larger than her Su-27 cousins then - that was in mid-90s) dev phase. Recall even to integrate the Brahmos they had to approach Sukhoi (it got solved within India, but a diff story). With familiarity Indians may be comfortable modifying the MKI, but 10-15 years ago - no way
2) What Putin is offering now is a PMO level deal - the IAF/Labs sit in a back room and are fed what is being negotiated and have the a say to say go/no-go (sad). The two govs will horse trade. And the IAF will probably get a decent plane (hey, the base T-50 is better than anything the IAF has, so anything based on the T-50 better be better ...... that is my logic). BUT, recall the two entities (above), the Indian Labs will not get what they NEED out of this proposed deal - which is what the goal of Sukhoi is. Rightly so IMHO from a Sukhoi PoV - they need to protect their IP

More l8r.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Dec 2015 21:29

Gyan wrote:I think this offer is good. Pay Russians USD3-4 Billion dollars and get right to:-

1. Manufacture + upgrade 300 T-50s with Indian, foreign or Russian components.

2. Get right to export, repair, maintain, integrate weapons and manufacture spare parts.

3. Do it through Pvt Compay like Chota Ambani or Pari Baba.

4. Get tech, metallurgy, machine tools for engines, gear box, fuel injection system, avionics, FBW, hydraulics, electricals, ejection system etc.

What teh Russians have said in the recent offer is that they will take the Indian specs (the $295 mil they spent on), use the PAK-FA body, design, develop AND produce 3 prototypes for India. Once IAF agrees, India then takes over.

India is no long a kid on the block to allow someone else to design and develop and not be in THAT loop. It is outright silly.

I think the IAF offer to purchase 60 odd PAK-FA is FAR better. Let the IAF be happy. The Labs will live to fight another day (IMHO).

India just has no time to waste here on out. And, for that to happen, India needs to control every aspect of everything. Granted that is not going to happen 100%, but as much as possible. IMHO, India needs to isolate her risks - PAK-FA offers that. And carry the larger risk with the AMCA. Trying to work with the AMCA AND a multi billion dollar FGFA (over which India has no control at all - Russia doing the design + Dev) is too much of a risk.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 24 Dec 2015 23:27

Gyan wrote:That's why we will pay USD 3 BILLION

Even when we were willing to pay $6 billion, the ToT aspect was iffy. To expect a deep tech transfer for $3.7 billion payout is an exercise in futility.

Business Standard has reviewed the minutes of that meeting. The IAF’s three top objections to the FGFA were: (a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India; (b) The fighter’s current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI’s AL-31 engines; and (c) It is too expensive. With India paying $6 billion to co-develop the FGFA, “a large percentage of IAF’s capital budget will be locked up.” - Jan 2014

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Dec 2015 06:24

If they get the Su-30s properly serviceable to begin with, the FGFA discussion makes sense.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Dec 2015 07:28

the FGFA discussion makes sense

FGFA or PAK-FA?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 25 Dec 2015 07:44

IAF has no problem locking up capital of USD 40-50 Billion dollars for 189 Rafales, so this whining about T-50 is suspicious. I still say that IF Russia co operates on FULL R&D access & ToT to manufacture ALL components in India then spending even USD 10 Billion for Indian two seater FGFA, with new engines, new Radar, New Avionics, Indian weapons is NOT a bad deal. Thereafter we can manufacture 300 FGFA in India and total will come around USD 50 Billion, still cheaper then Rafails. IAF is anti-HAL, anti- Sukhoi only pro French wines, women and Euros.

Russia is in a War with Low Oil prices, we will not get a better chance to drive a hard bargain. IAF generals has never never ever thought strategically and they are not going start now. All deals like Gnat, Su-30 MKI, Mig-21, An-32 etc have been politically driven while IAF is lover of 1960s tech like Hawk or unarmed Pilatus etc.

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 25 Dec 2015 13:53

Chaiwala info, heard from samosawala - jv between sukhoi and tata in the offing. They will develop FGFA as an independent project like bmos. Chota and mota bhai were/are in running too

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 25 Dec 2015 23:03

Do these industrial houses have capability for JV? What do they really bring to the table? I presume they will poach HAL employees and build competence?

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 26 Dec 2015 08:42

.

for that some ~$6 billion India get three PAK FA with full ToT (Same like T 90 ) along with Many Russian Engineers

Then HAL asks Air force .. 1 FGFA = $400 million

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Dec 2015 12:12

Max,what did the paan-wallah pass on?

A JV with Tatas/HAL for the future may be OK,but funds will have to be found.The Rafale may have to be scrapped/stopped at just 36..The recent Gripen team trying to make move sin Delhi may have some undercurrents.This may be an alternative for the 6 sqds. extra needed as the chief stated. Though double the price of the MIG-29/35 ,it would be much less than the Rafale,by about half its price. If acquired .This may also be seen as a cunning IAF back-up plan in case the LCA production founders.

kit · Post by **kit** » 27 Dec 2015 12:29

I think the IAF should convince the MOD to get a hands on evaluation of the F35 before trying out the PAKFA since the Russians are so reluctant to let them !

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Dec 2015 17:11

The reports today about the Rafale deal to be sealed during M.Hollande's visit,is why the IAF is stalling on the FGFA,is that It needs $Billions for the miserly number of 36 Rafales. The IF has decided to throw its hard cash into the 4th-gen Rafale instead of the 5th-gen FGFA. Babudom also want an AMCA programme that will go on endlessly swallowing up more cash.Even if we get a fantastic team organized for the AMCA,it will take 15 yrs. to attain first series production.As an AM says in the latest IMR,even the LCA MK-2 is nowhere ,and MK-1A dev/prod has the IAF skeptical. So "a Rafale in hand is worth the LCA MK-1A and FGFA in the bush".

The co-dev of the Russian 5th-gen fighter left a long time ago.Either the IAF buys the Ru version and tweaks it with some desi input or wave goodbye.What the MOD/GOI should realize is at what cost are we buying the Rafale.A min of $5B for just 36? It will end up as being the biggest white elephant deal in the history of India. in the meantime by 2020+,in some form or the other,the Chinese will have their 5th-gen birds in the air and in service. The F-35 so far has also been rejected by the IAF and it will come with many of the same issues that are being debate dwith the T-50,the core difference is that the Russians are more willing and easier to enter into a deal for such tech,etc. than a deal with the US with its intrusive inspection regime. It appears that the IAF wants the "wooden spoon" rather than a first prize.

PS:The quiet re-emergence of Gripen talk indicates that the IAF may be wanting the Gripen for the chief's "6 other sqds,not necessarily the Rafale"! Therefore,there is no money left for the FGA whatever.Watch this space.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 27 Dec 2015 20:49

kit wrote:I think the IAF should convince the MOD to get a hands on evaluation of the F35 before trying out the PAKFA since the Russians are so reluctant to let them !

+1, IMO we should delay any decision on the PAK-FA/FGFA for 4-5 years, let the program mature, and then look at our options. I don't see us really gaining anything from committing our selves by investing $$$ on an in development fighter that has questions on its capabilities and cost. The MKI-zing and screwdriver ToT we can get even if we sign the deal 5 years later.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 28 Dec 2015 23:24

American stealth fighter has considerable invisible load of American interests to boot, not to mention
* Can work only against China, not Pakistan
* Logistics, indigenous components not even offered, talked of
* No scope of say in development that began in cold war days, no scope of complaints even about indigenous components for years
* New logistics for American weapons, delivery system - the whole ecosystem - that will be totally at hope and praying for mercy of American Senate every 5 years, corporates, MIC, and such players and other factors
* Baggage of American interest, not the least, including human rights, environment and other 3/4-lettered 'international' orgs.
* Castrated export versions to content with, without any say already in development/initial costs.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Dec 2015 11:12

Indo-Russian fighter aircraft project regains speed: HAL

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Dec 2015 11:28

This is like the lover-boy flipping petals,"she loves me,she loves me not..."! We can all go to sleep for the next 6 months and be woken up then to the next song-and-dance number. I still feel that the Gripen is trying to sneak through for the extra 6 sqds. that the chief spoke of. The offer of a Sea Gripen TOT is a cunning method of getting the foot into the door. It is now clear that the NLCA is comatose with no MK-2 being planned unti the IAF get the planned sqds of Mk-1/1As.Offers to tweak the LCA into perfection will come along too. One can then rule out the FGFA arriving if at all post 2020.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Dec 2015 12:56

That article was from before modi's trip. And as I had stated then this will become a horse trading session at the PMO level.

The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.

With a weak Russian economy, I doubt it will go through. Unless the price comes down to a billion and India has complete control.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Dec 2015 14:54

The price will yet drop,after M.Hollande visits the capital and takes home his Rafale prize,a nice fat checque and agreement in his pocket!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Jan 2016 03:59

India and Russia Fail to Resolve Dispute Over Fifth Generation Fighter Jet

During the annual India-Russia summit, which took place in late December 2015 in Moscow, Russian President Vladimir Putin and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi failed to resolve an ongoing disagreement between the two countries over the future of a joint fifth generation fighter program.

India and Russia in early 2007 signed an intergovernmental agreement to co-develop a fifth generation fighter–the Sukhol/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) or as it known in India, the Perspective Multi-role Fighter (PMF). The aircraft will be a multi-role, single seat, twin-engine air superiority/deep air support fighter with stealth capabilities and is based on the Sukhoi PAK FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) T-50 prototype, currently undergoing flight tests in Russia.

Ever since 2007, however, the weapons program has experienced various setbacks.

Delays were caused by New Delhi and Moscow disagreeing over many fundamental aspects of the joint development project including work and cost share, aircraft technology, as well as the number of aircraft to be ordered. After evaluating the first PAK FA T-50 prototype, the Indian Air Force (IAF) wanted more than 40 changes addressing, among other things, perceived weaknesses in the plane’s engine, stealth and weapon-carrying capabilities.

While a preliminary $295 million design contract was signed in 2010, the final design contract under which both sides agreed to contribute each $6 billion for design and production and which also included a fixed order of 154 aircraft, a compromise on work share, a firm commitment to the number of single- versus double-seat aircraft still has not been signed to date. (Even though the head of Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) announced last June that a full R&D collaboration contract would be signed in 2015.)

As I reported before, the fifth generation fighter jet was slated to be introduced into the Indian Air Force by 2022. Russia was supposed to receive 250 aircraft, whereas India downgraded its initial purchasing size from 200 to 144 planes in 2012 at an estimated total cost of $30 billion. However in late 2015, Russian Deputy Minister Yuri Borisov announced that the Russian Air Force would only purchase a squadron (18-24 aircraft) of PAK FA fighter jets, and procure additional Sukhoi Su-35 aircraft instead.

The announcement apparently finally made India lose faith in the program. Last month, Russia tried to salvage the joint project by making India an offer to cut down its financial contribution from 6 to $ 3.7 billion for three PAK FA T-50 prototypes and technology transfers, The Indian Express reported.

“Now that they already have the fighter, the Russians have made a revised offer to us. For $3.7 billion, they will give us all the technological know-how of making the fighter. We will also get three prototypes from them in that amount,” a senior Indian defense official told the paper.

However, a senior IAF official told the paper that the air force remains skeptical: “We are not in favor of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.”

The meeting between President Vladimir Putin and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi was supposed to lead to some sort of compromise, but without even a revised signed design contract the project’s future will remain in limbo.

Meanwhile, the Russia’s Defense Ministry announced that the PAK FA T-50 prototype has “practically completed” flight tests and will be inducted into the Russian Air and Space Force in 2017. So far, four PAK FA T-50 prototypes, along with two test beds of the fighter, have been delivered by Sukhoi to the Russian military and are currently undergoing extensive testing. Three more prototypes are expected to be delivered in early 2016.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 17 Jan 2016 14:08

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Jan 2016 20:12

The bottom line is moolah.Affecting all acquistions including the Raffy from today's reports. Aiming for our first sqd. by 2020 should be our target if we are serious about a 5th-gen bird.With the general eco-slowdown,I think that the RuAF will get their first sqd. only by late 2018. Until then,extra made in India MK!s of Super-Sukhoi std ,BMos capable,should suffice. We need large numbers of cist-effective fighters at this point in time to replace the 200+ MIG-21s and MIG-27s being pensioned off very shortly. Pak has out its faith in the JF-17 to give qty which it lacks. LCA prod has to be ramped up.In fact,this is where the pvt. sector aspirants could pitch in and manufacture the LCA along with HAL so as to meet numbers and reduce acquisition time before the LCA becomes less capable in meeting future enemy stealth arrivals.