Pathankot AirForce base under attack

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby NRao » 04 Jan 2016 22:50

Pakistan-based outfit claims Pathankot attack

The United Jehad Council (UJC), an umbrella grouping of Kashmiri militant groups based in Pakistan, on Monday claimed responsibility for the terror attack on the IAF base in Punjab.

The UJC, which is led by Syed Salahuddin, said the Saturday attack on the base at Pathankot "was carried out by the national highway squad of the UJC".

The attack left seven security personnel dead and five terrorists dead.

Syed Sadaqat Hussain, who claimed to be a spokesman of the conglomerate of guerrilla groups based in Muzaffarabad in Pakistani Kashmir, said this in a statement mailed to Kashmir Media Network news agency.

"India is suffering from Pakistan phobia and has been blaming every attack by the freedom fighters of Kashmir on Pakistan," the statement said.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ramana » 04 Jan 2016 23:13

UJC is umbrella group of which Let and JeM are members.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ramana » 04 Jan 2016 23:14

But gives MAD a good opportunity to demand Syed Sala arrest failing which attack POK.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby member_29194 » 04 Jan 2016 23:27

I happen to be an Air Force Officer's son and I grew up on Air Force Stations across India between late seventies and mid-nineties. I would like to share with the group some details from a terrorist strike that happened at AFS Ambala in 93-94 timeframe and call out a few reasons why it can get hard to track down terrorists in an airbase the size of Ambala and Pathankot.

Ambala like Pathankot has a huge forested area in the airbase. This, btw, was the pattern at all Air Force Stations back in the day as forest patches within the technical area provided good cover and secrecy. In fact some of my fondest childhood memories are from going out with other kids on Neelgai spotting expeditions in some of these forests.

It was a winter morning in late 1993 (I don't remember the exact date), when two Khalistani terrorists entered the Ambala airbase from a gap in fencing on the rear side of the base. One of the terrorists happened to be a senior member (nicknamed 'Tunda') of one of the Khalistani outfits and carried quite a reputation. Both of these men were heavily armed and were being chased by police before they entered the airbase. The police alerted Air Force authorities of these guys having entered the AFS Ambala.

As soon as the authorities knew, the first thing they did was secure the aircrafts that were dispersed in blast pens around the air base and other assets. Back then there was no Garud Force and it was DSC, Air Force Police and regular Air Force officers and airmen that were put on the job of securing the assets. They then called the Army, which was thankfully right next door to locate and flush out the terrorists. Army came quite well prepared for a protracted battle with its own field ambulance, water bowsers and so on.

Then started the combing operation through the thick jungles. It was late afternoon but Army had managed to comb only a part of the jungle and these two guys were nowhere in sight. That's when it was pretty apparent that the operation could go much longer and what the authorities needed to fight first was impending darkness, which was going to be the terrorists' biggest ally. AFS authorities used up every single battery and spare lighting equipment that they could arrange to light up the part of the forest where these guys were suspected to be hiding. Yet it was not enough. Authorities then got every spare vehicle on the base, tanked them up and parked them with their headlights on around that part of the forest where these guys were supposed to be hiding.

One of the terrorists played an interesting trick in the night. To divert attention, he broke cordon and crossed in front of the lights to the patch that had already been combed earlier and was not lit up and later crossed back under the cover of darkness to the patch that had not been combed. As he was crossing in front of the lights his sillouhette was spotted by a jawan but when he crossed back, nobody saw him.

Now the army was in a terrible dilemma, should they divert those lights and start focusing on the area that had already been combed or should they continue to focus on the area that had not been combed. They continued to focus on the area that had not been combed and the guy moved back to the uncombed area at some point. Somehow the night passed without damage to any assets.
Next morning the hunt started again and it was mid-day when army chanced upon one of the guys. He was hiding in a trench (Ambala is an RAF base and there are a lot of WW2 unused structures in the forested area) and was quite well camouflaged with dry leaves and bushes. He was spotted and killed by a search party. The second one, "tunda" proved quite tricky. He happened to find a cave like structure that he covered the entrance of through a big rock. Luckily one search party with two young lieutenants and a jawan saw his feet and setup an immediate meeting with his maker.

It took almost 2 full days to just find these two guys who were on a run and not really firing at the search parties.

The point of sharing the above anecdote is that if someone who is armed breaks into an area as big as a large and dense as an Air Force Base, it is quite hard to pin the person down in quick time without causing massive collateral damage or large number of own casualties. A good friend lost her dad, Brigadier Govil (who I also knew personally), in Tanda in 2003 when a terrorist hiding under a culvert shot and killed him after the operation was declared over.

The least we can do is to trust that our armed forces must be doing their best in the given situation.

That being said, the security agencies need to determine if the forests within the technical areas of the air base are an asset or a liability in today's day and age of signal intelligence and GPS. They also need to invest much more in basics such as lighting, roads and pruning the bush so that in case a vermin gets in he can be traced and flushed out asap.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby KLNMurthy » 04 Jan 2016 23:28

shiv wrote:Watched Arun Jaitley press conf 60 seconds ago.

When I watched Obama (also Bush and Reagan earlier) after an attack, watching a Brit PM, watching a French PM I saw passion and anger and a warning that the attackers will have to pay.

With Jaitley - total disappointment. No passion. No anger. If I had the sound turned down his demeanour and his body language might have been him talking about a new tax that is proposed or the measures taken to reduce loss of power transmission by increasing efficiency. Even Paki jernails speak with anger and firmness and say that someone will pay. But not our leaders

This is a total sell out. I have not heard one leader say with passion and anger that the perpetrators will be punished. Indian governments are up to something that I do not understand. Maybe it is true that we have been warned by powers like the US to keep our hands off Pakistan. Only that can explain this funereal calm and soporific tone.

In order to comfort myself (cry myself to sleep?) I have to imagine that something is coming. But that has gone on so long that I know that my tears will be dry tomorrow, but we will bow before Pakistan. Not giving in, but simply giving up


Not saying that Jaitley et al are founts of righteous passion and fully respecting your feelings, I still want to point out that the TV passion of Hollande. Cameron, Obama, Bush et al has only translated into no action (Pakistan) or feeble action (ISIS, Taliban) or wrongheaded, misdirected action (Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, ISIS).

We have the population, culture and leadership that we have. We all (on this forum) know what the problem is, and what the solution is, and also why India as it is today can't implement that solution.

We can always rely on pakis to push India so far that the long-suffering elephant will finally stomp on them and end it all.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby NRao » 04 Jan 2016 23:54

Ambala like Pathankot has a huge forested area in the airbase


Exactly the stuff you do NOT need on any military base. These are military installations that need to be designed to deter entry and then be very easily defended.

More out of curiosity, do civilians on bases get trained for such eventualities? Every so often do bases go on high alerts, lock downs, etc?

Also, how far are these "forests" from "technical" areas?

I still want to point out that the TV passion of Hollande. Cameron, Obama, Bush et al has only translated into no action (Pakistan) or feeble action (ISIS, Taliban) or wrongheaded, misdirected action (Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, ISIS)


Every nation has their own version of the Punjab Police (which people seem to claim are in cahoots with Paki smugglers - not familiar with the situation). However, there are things that go at the back end - sometimes very little is done and at times a lot, that we never see in the press.

Point being, I would not compare. India needs to do what she needs to do. The question seems to be is India really doing what she needs to do? Or are such attacks par for the course - cost of living?

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby NRao » 05 Jan 2016 00:02

Data point, sorry if already posted:

Why have you fallen behind, Pak handler asked 2nd batch of Pathankot terrorists

Official sources while giving this information on Monday said two gunmen from the group of six Pakistani terrorists might have entered Pathankot air base in Punjab before a state police officer was kidnapped by them and much before an alert was sounded about their presence in the area.

There is "high probability" that at least two terrorists have entered the Indian Air Force base before Superintent of Police Salwinder Singh, his jeweller friend Rajesh Verma and Singh's cook was kidnapped along with an SUV on December 31, the sources said

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Ashokk » 05 Jan 2016 00:04

Pathankot attack: ‘PM Modi gave clear instructions to avoid unnecessary risks’
The terrorists who had stormed the Pathankot air base were “well trained” and “strongly stocked” with arms and ammunitions to inflict heavy damage to the assets stationed there and that explains the long counter terror operations going on against them, top government sources said.

They also attributed the long period of operation, which has lasted for three days, to strict instructions by Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar not to take “unnecessary risks” to avoid casualties.

They added that the effort was also to catch at least one of the terrorists alive, if possible.


Explaining why seven security personnel have been killed, the sources said, “The first five Defence Security Corps personnel were killed when the terrorists attacked a rest room at 3:30 AM where a shift change was happening. Despite that one of the DAC guards killed a terrorist with his own gun before being killed.

“We lost one Garud commando in the operation in the gun fight. The killing of an NSG Lt Col was just bad luck as he died while removing a terrorist body”.

The sources maintained that the terrorists’ plan to inflict heavy damage to the air force assets, MiG 21 fighter aircraft and Mi 25 attack choppers, stationed at the base had been countered.

They said that the terrorists were “better trained than the 2008 Mumbai terror attackers”.

Asked why the operation has taken so much time, the sources said both Modi and Parrikar had given clear instructions that “unnecessary risks” should not be taken.

“The operation taking time is not the issue. The main aim was to ensure low casualties from our side and to get at least one of the terrorists alive,” the top government sources said.

They added that the terrorist were carrying AK47s, Under Barrel Grenade Launchers (UBGL), 52 MM mortars and GPS locators.

The sources also said that the aim of the Pathankot attack and the one in Afghanistan was to derail the Indo-Pak talks.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby member_23370 » 05 Jan 2016 00:09

Can't India jam the GPS signals and other communication these mofos have? I would have thought we can use all chemical weapons we have including napalm to neutralize them.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Aditya G » 05 Jan 2016 00:19

Kaveesh - thank you for the post. Its a great first post and look forward to many more from you.

Some thoughts on Raksha Suraksha Bal i.e. DSC:

- Untill today DSC was far removed from national consciousness. Do a Google Image search for it; there is not a single photo online of a DSC trooper. Do a search for SFF, special group, delta force and there are lots. Given that it employs retired ex-servicemen, it should have come up sometime during OROP debates. I saw not one reference to it - just like any of the countless "schemes" provided by our government.

- DSC has no officers, no Colonel Commandant, probably no regimental centre. Ranks are those which the men got from their service with the Army. I doubt if it is even recognized as an armed force of the union. It is an orphan.

- Nevertheless, I am sure base commanders need these guys to be around. You need someone to perform thankless gate duties and constabulary functions around the base. I am guessing the base commanders HQ manages DSC.

- Just because the men are past military age does not mean they are ineffectual in face of motivated terrorists.

- My armchair recommendations:

-- Lower the average age profile. Instead of hiring Subedar Majors who have served the maximum service term for a NCO, hire those who had to exit service earlier.

-- Instead of Assault Rifles, equip them with (lighter) PDWs like MSMC or Amogh Carbines.

-- Increase the allotment of DSC guards per air force station.

-- DSC guards should report to the garud officer.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ramana » 05 Jan 2016 00:22

Why don't we burn down Pathankot AFB for the Pakis!
Would satisfy the urge for members and anti-Services crusaders.

AdityaG DSC regimental centre is in Kannur, Kerala.

I posted the wiki page a few pages ago.

I agree armament and BPJ should be revamped.

If you look at profiles of the five DSC who died they are all ranks. SM to Sepoy ranks.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby chetak » 05 Jan 2016 01:03

Aditya G wrote:Kaveesh - thank you for the post. Its a great first post and look forward to many more from you.

Some thoughts on Raksha Suraksha Bal i.e. DSC:

- Untill today DSC was far removed from national consciousness. Do a Google Image search for it; there is not a single photo online of a DSC trooper. Do a search for SFF, special group, delta force and there are lots. Given that it employs retired ex-servicemen, it should have come up sometime during OROP debates. I saw not one reference to it - just like any of the countless "schemes" provided by our government.

- DSC has no officers, no Colonel Commandant, probably no regimental centre. Ranks are those which the men got from their service with the Army. I doubt if it is even recognized as an armed force of the union. It is an orphan.

- Nevertheless, I am sure base commanders need these guys to be around. You need someone to perform thankless gate duties and constabulary functions around the base. I am guessing the base commanders HQ manages DSC.

- Just because the men are past military age does not mean they are ineffectual in face of motivated terrorists.

- My armchair recommendations:

-- Lower the average age profile. Instead of hiring Subedar Majors who have served the maximum service term for a NCO, hire those who had to exit service earlier.

-- Instead of Assault Rifles, equip them with (lighter) PDWs like MSMC or Amogh Carbines.

-- Increase the allotment of DSC guards per air force station.

-- DSC guards should report to the garud officer.



DSC can be commanded only by Army officers

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby SSridhar » 05 Jan 2016 02:49

After all this, we should also not allow ourselves to be put on the mat for cancelling/delaying/postponing the talks, whatever the decision is. Clear statements and redlines must be openly spelt out as we did in the case of the Pakistan High Commissioner meeting the Hurriyat.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby sudeepj » 05 Jan 2016 02:53

SSridhar wrote:After all this, we should also not allow ourselves to be put on the mat for cancelling/delaying/postponing the talks, whatever the decision is. Clear statements and redlines must be openly spelt out as we did in the case of the Pakistan High Commissioner meeting the Hurriyat.


We cant even get our own journalists and editors on board this policy. This is a political and diplomatic non starter. IMO, talk-talk-talk kill-kill-kill is our only option.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ramana » 05 Jan 2016 02:54

Ops still going on?

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby SSridhar » 05 Jan 2016 02:57

sudeepj, ultimately, GoI has got to do what it has got to do without worrying about newspaper editors, Mni Shankar Ayyars et al. These few people do not define the country. What I implied was that the pressure not to do so would come from the US et al and we must ignore them.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby sudeepj » 05 Jan 2016 02:59

SSridhar wrote:sudeepj, ultimately, GoI has got to do what it has got to do without worrying about newspaper editors, Mni Shankar Ayyars et al. These few people do not define the country. What I implied was that the pressure not to do so would come from the US et al and we must ignore them.


Not sure if discussion is Kosher in this thread. So will desist and carry on the retaliation thread.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby sudeepj » 05 Jan 2016 03:08

ramana wrote:Ops still going on?


Looks so. Tribune should have the latest news:

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 79520.html
Vijay Mohan, Tribune News Service, Pathankot, January 4

As operations to clear the Pathankot Air Force Station of terrorists continued for the third day, security forces came up with what could be construed as a definitive figure to end the confusion: the fifth terrorist had been killed today. They, however, chose to maintain silence on the possible presence of more terrorists inside, saying combing operations were underway.


Gunshots indicated the possible presence of more terrorists inside or a cautionary measure being undertaken by combat elements when faced with a doubtful situation.


Life beyond the vicinity of the air base appeared to continue as routine, with bustling markets and jostling traffic. There have been no reports of any further casualties among NSG and armed forces personnel present at the airbase. Seven persons, including a Lieutenant Colonel have been killed in the operations, besides about 20 being injured.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ramana » 05 Jan 2016 03:11

Good toll has stayed at 7 KIA. Any updates on the 20 injured?

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Sid » 05 Jan 2016 04:30

People who are self loathing and questioning the capabilities of forces should read about similar attacks in neighboring countries, specially on airbases manned and protected by super powers.

One such attack was on Camp Bastion.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemb ... stion_raid

Suicide terror attacks can only be contained, very hard to prevent. Security forces have done a wonderful job in containing the effect.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Guddu » 05 Jan 2016 04:49

Re: jet lee's calm demeanour, I don't worry too much. I have not studied him much, what's his personality type, is he usually calm or excited ?. Secondly, as they say barking dogs do not bite (Jet Lee is not being referred to). I am hoping against hope, but it might be that the GOI may undertake an operation, they want to keep things calm and not excite pakis, to up their defenses. It will be a big let down for me if GOI does not respond, especially since we did not do much after Gurdaspur. Give it a few days, I still have faith in 56" and pigeon. Both these men are nationalists and not peaceniks, not responding must be hard for them (they are jingoes too). I think we may be able to predict how GOI will act, from the Myanmar raid. Might be worth while to analyze who said what prior to the raid.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby SwamyG » 05 Jan 2016 05:04

Western leaders demonstration of anger is 'manufactured' for the domestic audience. Theatrics have their role in swaying public opinion, and often in the West they have to build public opinion to hit foreign targets.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby kulhari » 05 Jan 2016 05:26

Combing ops still on. Top brass has ordered to take all the time in the world for neat operation and avoid any casualties.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Guddu » 05 Jan 2016 05:34

We may be going slow, to avoid casualties on our side. Another benefit is that this gives us time to get our response ready, if we are going to respond overtly. I would hope the 72 h deadline is real. Hopefully Jan 7-8 is D-day (I wish).

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Screambowl » 05 Jan 2016 05:44

Guddu wrote:We may be going slow, to avoid casualties on our side. Another benefit is that this gives us time to get our response ready, if we are going to respond overtly. I would hope the 72 h deadline is real. Hopefully Jan 7-8 is D-day (I wish).


On 7th, Saudi FM is arriving in Pakistan :lol: for consultations and persuade them for joining the 34 country coalition led by saudi arab .

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby SSundar » 05 Jan 2016 06:00

So, somebody ought to send a discreet message to the Saudi bigwigs not to travel to Pigland during those days. No more details necessary. The news sure would reach the Pakis and it will make them believe that we are serious this time. It is probable that some action may actually happen without us having to really execute a retaliatory strike.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Hari Seldon » 05 Jan 2016 06:09

As long as a credibl response happens, all is forgiven vis-a-vis Modi sarkar.

I just hope the response involves taking and holding some territory, however small or symbolic.

I was thinking maybe, taking and holding onto the Haji Pir would be a nice idea. No returning-viturning until action on Hafiz/Jaish/Dawood etc, which means we get to hold it forever. Only.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2016 06:14

Kaveesh wrote:I happen to be an Air Force Officer's son and I grew up on Air Force Stations across India between late seventies and mid-nineties. I would like to share with the group some details from a terrorist strike that happened at AFS Ambala in 93-94 timeframe and call out a few reasons why it can get hard to track down terrorists in an airbase the size of Ambala and Pathankot.
<snip>
Then started the combing operation through the thick jungles. It was late afternoon but Army had managed to comb only a part of the jungle and these two guys were nowhere in sight. That's when it was pretty apparent that the operation could go much longer and what the authorities needed to fight first was impending darkness, which was going to be the terrorists' biggest ally. AFS authorities used up every single battery and spare lighting equipment that they could arrange to light up the part of the forest where these guys were suspected to be hiding. Yet it was not enough. Authorities then got every spare vehicle on the base, tanked them up and parked them with their headlights on around that part of the forest where these guys were supposed to be hiding.

One of the terrorists played an interesting trick in the night. To divert attention, he broke cordon and crossed in front of the lights to the patch that had already been combed earlier and was not lit up and later crossed back under the cover of darkness to the patch that had not been combed. As he was crossing in front of the lights his sillouhette was spotted by a jawan but when he crossed back, nobody saw him.

Now the army was in a terrible dilemma, should they divert those lights and start focusing on the area that had already been combed or should they continue to focus on the area that had not been combed. They continued to focus on the area that had not been combed and the guy moved back to the uncombed area at some point.
<snip>

It took almost 2 full days to just find these two guys who were on a run and not really firing at the search parties.

The point of sharing the above anecdote is that if someone who is armed breaks into an area as big as a large and dense as an Air Force Base, it is quite hard to pin the person down in quick time without causing massive collateral damage or large number of own casualties. A good friend lost her dad, Brigadier Govil (who I also knew personally), in Tanda in 2003 when a terrorist hiding under a culvert shot and killed him after the operation was declared over.

The least we can do is to trust that our armed forces must be doing their best in the given situation.
.

Many thanks Kaveesh,

I can only say that for people who have played hide and seek as children we can ask them to imagine the same game with the hiders carrying Kalashnikovs. But for those nerds/teacher's pets who have never played hide and seek in their life there is no hope of explaining what it means to search for people hiding in rough terrain. They probably don't even know what rough terrain means.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby manjgu » 05 Jan 2016 06:19

Kaveesh with a similar profile as urs...we used to have mock drills in our camp of 1 side defending the camp and 2nd side trying to ingress. it was quite funny as children to watch all this... 1 remember one time a airman from the 'enemy' side was stationed in our bathroom before the excercise started. and then he suddenly appeared inside the camp much to the surprise and consteration of the defending side !! they could not understand how the enemy managed to get inside the camp !! ghar ka bhedi lanka dhaye !! ...talking of DSC, my cousin was posted at Hindon AFB...he forgot something in his office and took me along to his office close to the airstrip in the night. as we approached someone shouted 'thamba' and we stopped..suddenly 1 DSC came out of the bush , saw my brother and asked him something ... and then saluted. he was a old man and said sir i am alert !! i really felt sorry for the DSC chap , looked old and yet was hiding somewhere in the foilage giving duty.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2016 06:22

KLNMurthy wrote:[

Not saying that Jaitley et al are founts of righteous passion and fully respecting your feelings, I still want to point out that the TV passion of Hollande. Cameron, Obama, Bush et al has only translated into no action (Pakistan) or feeble action (ISIS, Taliban) or wrongheaded, misdirected action (Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, ISIS).

Politicians showing passion is invariably play-acting. But that play-acting is directed at the general public who need to have doubts removed from their minds that we mean business. What this emotion-drama does is to cause public anger to boil over to the extent that stupid articles about how Pakistan should be given love (eg Suhasini Haider in today's Hindu) will have no role whatsoever.

Having said that even Jaitley's deadpan act was definitely play acting - deliberately designed not to rouse any more emotion than would be raised by anyone saying that he is going to buy groceries. There is a deliberate intent not to raise the kind of emotions that will be required to bulldoze public opposition.

For a person like me - hoping to get the immediate personal gratification of seeing dead Pakis it is a disappointment. However it would probably leave the Pak army on tenterhooks. It can't be reassuring to conduct a terrorist attack and then get virtually no response from India

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby member_27991 » 05 Jan 2016 07:13

If no action is taken by India other than delaying the piss talks, then Pakistan will be proved right in their hasty arrogance last year of saying - "Pakistan is not Burma". This actually means how well they know India. Pakistan is actually worse than Burma in most aspects so what they meant was that "India cannot treat Pakistan in the same way as it can treat Burma". So much for offensive defence.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Hari Seldon » 05 Jan 2016 07:17

The play here is to get Pak to act tactically brilliantly, what it's been infamous for anyway, I guess. Spook them a little with unpredictable troop and asset movements along the border... see what moves on the other side in response... etc.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shaun » 05 Jan 2016 07:31

Thanks to kaveesh and other informed posters , we all know that pigs having minds of its own , is difficult to be located in a dense forest . now people of all hue and cry will tell bed tales of their hide and seek exploits ! it's not only forest , build up areas can be worst , so is the operation still going on.
But for mango public the question is ,why is it taking so much time for this operation to end cause it's hard to imagine that a big AFB can be inside a jungle or a big jungle can be inside a AFB ! The point is we are lethargic and ill prepared for perimeter defense of strategic installations and institutions from a determined attacker , even the parliament was breached. These days red and
blue beacons transports terrorists , overtly or covertly. sheer luck, bravery and sacrifices of our Jawans have stopped things turning into catasphore.

Fresh doshas are in preparations , the porkis will test them and decide the next course of action .
Last edited by shaun on 05 Jan 2016 07:45, edited 1 time in total.

A_Gupta
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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby A_Gupta » 05 Jan 2016 07:40

How much water do these terrorists carry on them? I assume that unless there are ponds and streams in the area, that is what limits how long they can hide.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Shanmukh » 05 Jan 2016 07:51

Just a question for the knowledgeable folks. When sanitising such a big base as Pathankot, how do we ensure that terrorists don't double back/circle round into already sanitised areas, especially at night? Particularly when we don't know where they are? Do we have enough lighting available to ensure this?

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2016 08:03

Shaun wrote:The point is we are lethargic and ill prepared for perimeter defense of strategic installations and institutions from a determined attacker , even the parliament was breached.


That is an unfair comment on at least two levels. On your part there is an assumption that terrorists can simply walk in a create mayhem because "we are ill prepared". I think you have made an emotional comment without thinking this through.

Air bases are better protected than say markets or bus stands. Why did the terrorists attack a well protected area and fail to achieve much when they could have attacked a soft target? The likely reason is that civilian mayhem does not get them the glory that they want but gets them negative publicity.

So the question is, were the terrorists stupid in attacking an air base or were Indians stupid? Neither. The Pakis have done a good job in giving special forces like training to the terrorists and have done all possible things to avoid detection like special forces people might do anywhere in the world. I suppose you do realize that special forces have skills, training and stamina to do what an ordinary infantryman/jihadi will not be able to achieve. They had Paki army support and they just were just a few dozen kmn from their intended target.

The problem is that we are are war. A slow war in which attacks are conducted with careful planning. Many plans do not come to fruition when jihadis are arrested. But these news reports never get a mention on BRF and people like yourself will never know about what mayhem was prevented when an attack is stopped by good intel and arrests of sleepers. But because the attacks are continuous, once in a while something spectacular happens. And when it happens you say "we are lethargic and ill prepared for perimeter defense". That is an unfair and ignorant comment.

India needs to get back at Pakistan in some way and that is what is lacking. Not perimeter defence.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Prem » 05 Jan 2016 08:05

SSundar wrote:So, somebody ought to send a discreet message to the Saudi bigwigs not to travel to Pigland during those days. No more details necessary. The news sure would reach the Pakis and it will make them believe that we are serious this time. It is probable that some action may actually happen without us having to really execute a retaliatory strike.


Saudi Abbu's visit is postponed because of diplomatic Panga with Iran.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2016 08:19

nageshks wrote:When sanitising such a big base as Pathankot, how do we ensure that terrorists don't double back/circle round into already sanitised areas, especially at night? Particularly when we don't know where they are? Do we have enough lighting available to ensure this?


By throwing a security cordon of men around the entire area and gradually working inwards. That is why 200 men may be sent in to get one hiding terrorist. This is in peacetime. In wartime such resources will not be available and intruders may be able to approach a well guarded inner fence/wall. In that case there will be shoot at sight for anyone who goes anywhere towards "vital assets" like hangars.These areas are kept clear of vegetation and hiding places anyway. Also in wartime civilians will be well out of the way so there is no danger of them being shot by trigger happy and tense guards.

We frequently hear of what happens at the LOC. A few men are seen infiltrating by remote sensors. A huge security blanket is thrown around, but at the LoC it may not be possible to put men with their backs to the Pakistan side. That way some terrorists can escape back through the fence. Also there are some areas that are very difficult to reach and terrorists are known to escape into such areas.

A few days after 26/11 - a young Bangalorean, ironically a Muslim lad called Mukarram (I think) was doing "wheelies" on his motorbike with a friend on a clear road near some army installations. He was stopped by a police barrier and the boys abandoned the bike and ran their separate ways. Mukarram, in an act of very poor judgement entered the residential compound of the commanding officer of the army installation, climbed up to the terrace and started making phone calls. He called his mother and then called some friends to come and pick him up. The guard asked him to surrender but the young man waited for a car to appear outside and then climbed down and tried to run to the car and escape. He was shot dead. He got into the car and died in there. In some areas, security is tight and people get shot. But that sort of security is absent in jungles and ravines on the periphery of air bases.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Austin » 05 Jan 2016 08:39

I think if there is no kinetic reaction to IAF AFB attack it will become OK henceforth to attack IAF Bases any where in India and would become a New Normal.

Much like our lack of military reaction in a pro-active manner lead to us being tolerant to Terrorism in Kashmir , Parliament Attack , 26/11 and multiple bomb blast that occurred so on and so forth as the GOI of the Day considered it to be OK which can be dealt diplomatically.

May be this time IAF got lucky with none of its asset harmed but sadly and regrettably with precious life lost inspite of prior intel but next time we may not have intel and IAF may not be lucky not to loose capital assets.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ManSingh » 05 Jan 2016 08:44

Shaun wrote:Thanks to kaveesh and other informed posters , we all know that pigs having minds of its own , is difficult to be located in a dense forest . now people of all hue and cry will tell bed tales of their hide and seek exploits ! it's not only forest , build up areas can be worst , so is the operation still going on.
But for mango public the question is ,why is it taking so much time for this operation to end cause it's hard to imagine that a big AFB can be inside a jungle or a big jungle can be inside a AFB ! The point is we are lethargic and ill prepared for perimeter defense of strategic installations and institutions from a determined attacker , even the parliament was breached. These days red and
blue beacons transports terrorists , overtly or covertly. sheer luck, bravery and sacrifices of our Jawans have stopped things turning into catasphore.

Fresh doshas are in preparations , the porkis will test them and decide the next course of action .


I understand your pain but this point regarding parliament breach etc is not a just measure of our preparedness. Just as a reminder, in a similar incident in Canada, a lone attacker managed to enter inside the parliament hall before being subdued. Surely no one calls Canada a weak lethargic country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_shootings_at_Parliament_Hill,_Ottawa

My point being: There is only so much defence can do. Unless cost is imposed on actual perpetrators, no amount of shields/defences will guarantee absolute security.


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