IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Dec 2015 14:26

The "F" mag says that there are only 6 left to be delivered,will come next year,8 of the lot to be 2-seaters. What the IN's delivery schedule is an unknown,esp. as the second CV,the new Vikrant will only be commissioned 3 years hence! So we may have two sqds. as mentioned ,with the second at Vizag land based until the Vikrant arrives. It would be worth examining basing IN MIG-29s in the A&N islands,making base facilities for such ops. This would also help the CVs when they are operating in the Indo-China Sea,with a home base for servicing the aircraft closer to the operational areas.

The era of post-Soviet unreliability of spares and support is ending.IL-476s are now being built entirely in Russia,Putin has reorganised and modernised the entire Russian def. industry and the results are on display in Syria. 70%+ of MIIs are being made from local raw material.MIG-29 engines being made locally,along with the 60+ upgrades being done at home.Sev. support cos. for naval and other weapon systems have been set up with local partners. As the report said,it is the procrastination (lost decade of Cong/UPA rule) and protracted approval regime by babudom that affects ALL support for def. ware,regardless of OEM origin. Did we not have problems with Sea Kings,Hawks,Harriers,etc.?

The media today gave stats showing the huge increase in decisionmaking,etc.,between the new NDA regime and the UPA regime. Let's hope that the momentum continues. new deals/contracts should ensure that spares,support,etc. are available locally ,with a very short delivery time after a request is put forward by the services.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 09 Dec 2015 17:47

I think India should buy into IL-96 + PD 14 engine R&D and manufactering for MRTT, AWACS, MPA, VIP travel, Intel (ELINT, SIGINT, COMMINT), Ground surveillance special purpose aircraft which would be around 40-60 units. As the flying hours of these aircrafts are only 250-750 hours a year ( compared to civilian aircraft which fly upto 5000 hours per year) therefore slightly higher fuel, maintenance costs will be more than met by cheaper aircraft and tech transfer.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Dec 2015 09:22

Gyan,wouldn't the IL-476 be a better platform as we already operate IL-76/78s? Any further news of the Rafale negotiations?

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 04 Jan 2016 19:41

So it's finally over:

India Confirms Order for IAF's Rafale Deal With France - New Indian Express

The Indian Air Force's quest for a Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) is finally over with the Indian government confirming the order for 36 Rafale jets with the French government.

According to sources, documents for the government-to-government deal were delivered by New Delhi to Paris on New Year's eve, and the agreement is on the same lines as that for the Mirage 2000 aircraft signed in the early 1980s. IAF will buy all the Rafale aircraft from Dassault, the French aircraft builder and integrator, in a flyaway condition.

As the deal is between governments, the French authorities will ensure that Dassault complies with the terms of reference as it has successfully done in the case of Mirage 2000 -- about 60 of which were delivered beginning 1985. The basic agreement was for 49 and 10 more were acquired later.

Significantly, this is the second deal for IAF - and Indian Army - within one week, the other being for Russian Kamov-31 helicopters signed on Christmas Eve with the Russian Government in Moscow during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit there. That deal involves substantial manufacture of these machines in India as the number is large -- more than 200.

It may be noted that originally IAF was to acquire 126 aircraft after the Rafale was selected in the MMRCA competition some time back, 18 in flyaway condition and 108 as progressively assembled and made in India by HAL under part Transfer of Technology (ToT). Private industry was to be involved, but HAL's share was negotiated as more than 70 percent.

There were a lot of hiccups, over costs of the aircraft -- over $100 million-plus per aircraft -- and offsets from the Indian side and responsibility over the quality of production in India from the French side. Finally, keeping in mind IAF's urgent requirements, the prime minister intervened to order 36 aircraft, or two squadrons, in a direct government-to-government deal during his visit to Paris in April.

This time, the deal involved no production in India but there were still some hiccups over the 50 percent stipulated offsets although aircraft costs would by and large have been the same as for the French Air Force (Armée de l'Air). Offset obligations would always be additional.

Modi, intervening again, spoke directly with French President Francois Hollande on telephone in early September, and expressed difficulty in concluding the deal without the offsets. Hollande graciously agreed, and IAF approved the deal in mid-December. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) delivered a copy of the Inter-Government Agreement in this regard through the established diplomatic channels just as the New Year was set to begin.

Under the deal, Dassault and its main partners -- engine-maker Safran and electronic systems-maker Thales -- will share some technology with DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation) and maybe some private sector companies and HAL under the offsets clause. Details are not known but as the aircraft have to be flown and maintained in India for at least three-to-four decades, a lot of information and technology upgrades will be needed to keep them operational.

The twin-engine Rafale combat jet is designed from the beginning as a multi-role fighter for air-to-air and air-to-ground attacks, is nuclear- capable and, thanks to its onboard Electronic Warfare (EW) systems, can also perform reconnaissance and radar jamming roles.

The deal involves delivery of aircraft to begin within three years of signing the agreement -- 2018-end in this case -- but French industry sources told this writer some time back in Paris that Dassault had started planning for the Indian order from mid-2015 itself, and "maybe the deliveries could be faster, if required".

Last year had been lucky for Dassault as the Rafale has also been selected by Egypt and Qatar, while the UAE is considering it seriously.

There are suddenly too many orders, and the only way to meet them is to divert the French Air Force requirements for the next few years. That is being done.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Jan 2016 19:48

^Same news
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/521 ... afale.html

The Indian Air Force's quest for a Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) is finally over with the Indian government confirming the order for 36 Rafale jets with the French government.

According to sources, documents for the government-to-government deal were delivered by New Delhi to Paris on New Year's eve, and the agreement is on the same lines as that for the Mirage 2000 aircraft signed in the early 1980s. IAF will buy all the Rafale aircraft from Dassault, the French aircraft builder and integrator, in a flyaway condition.

As the deal is between governments, the French authorities will ensure that Dassault complies with the terms of reference as it has successfully done in the case of Mirage 2000 -- about 60 of which were delivered beginning 1985. The basic agreement was for 49 and 10 more were acquired later.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Jan 2016 21:15

Excellent News ! Finally we see an end at sight for the long drawn out MMRCA saga

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 05 Jan 2016 00:54

what ToT is included?

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 05 Jan 2016 01:07

No news on ToT yet - but, not many are holding their breath for useful ToT after the huge reduction in numbers from 126 to 36. My guess is most ToT would be around maintenance - not engines/radars/armaments.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 05 Jan 2016 01:18

ASTRA + other munitions integration ToT would serve well ..

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 05 Jan 2016 02:43

This is good. Mirage - 2000s have also been upgraded to fly more and with new electronic systems. IAF does not need more of these planes given the threat perception. Besides, the Mig-21 Bisons are also very capable aircraft and if upgraded again with Isreali help ..should be able to fly more.

With the political establishment making peace efforts with former enemy...a threat perception in south asia significantly reduces...

These aircraft with these numbers can certainly play a good role if any inadvertant incident arises.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Jan 2016 04:02

Oh Lord! Finally !!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Jan 2016 04:06

viveks wrote:This is good. Mirage - 2000s have also been upgraded to fly more and with new electronic systems. IAF does not need more of these planes given the threat perception. Besides, the Mig-21 Bisons are also very capable aircraft and if upgraded again with Isreali help ..should be able to fly more.

With the political establishment making peace efforts with former enemy...a threat perception in south asia significantly reduces...

These aircraft with these numbers can certainly play a good role if any inadvertant incident arises.

Good ones sir, a sense of humor!

PS: IAF needs far more than 36. Hopefully GOI will order a follow on batch and double the order.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 05 Jan 2016 04:11

viveks wrote:This is good. Mirage - 2000s have also been upgraded to fly more and with new electronic systems. IAF does not need more of these planes given the threat perception. Besides, the Mig-21 Bisons are also very capable aircraft and if upgraded again with Isreali help ..should be able to fly more.

With the political establishment making peace efforts with former enemy...a threat perception in south asia significantly reduces...

These aircraft with these numbers can certainly play a good role if any inadvertant incident arises.

Disagree. The IAF has repeatedly said they need more aircraft to reach the 42 squadron number for TSP+China and for next few years we're going to go lower in squadron strength. Not sure which enemy we've converted into "former enemy" - one of the lesson of '62 and '99 was that the environment can change very quickly in South Asia from jhappi to staring down the barrel.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Jan 2016 06:28

Hollande ko Bharat yatra se saphalta milegi or what?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Jan 2016 07:21

GeorgeWelch wrote:what ToT is included?

Under the deal, Dassault and its main partners -- engine-maker Safran and electronic systems-maker Thales -- will share some technology with DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation) and maybe some private sector companies and HAL under the offsets clause. Details are not known but as the aircraft have to be flown and maintained in India for at least three-to-four decades, a lot of information and technology upgrades will be needed to keep them operational.

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 05 Jan 2016 13:47

Is it True that Contract for 12 U-2I is also concluded with Japan. If so, then MOD is on a Roll to conclude Contracts.

I am sure with Q4 and year closure coming nearby , they would like to expedite the conclusion of contracts and issue the Advance Payments.

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 05 Jan 2016 14:33

the race begins, who will form the first squadron - Tejas or Rafale?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 05 Jan 2016 14:39

^^^ Tejas. I think by Mar this year 04 SP Tejas deliveries are scheduled.

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 05 Jan 2016 14:52

deejay wrote:^^^ Tejas. I think by Mar this year 04 SP Tejas deliveries are scheduled.

how about a friendly bet worth 10 internets (which I desperately want to lose) that it is not happening?

[sorry OT, mods please remove if needed]

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 05 Jan 2016 15:41

maxratul wrote:
deejay wrote:^^^ Tejas. I think by Mar this year 04 SP Tejas deliveries are scheduled.
how about a friendly bet worth 10 internets (which I desperately want to lose) that it is not happening?

[sorry OT, mods please remove if needed]

Done, but the bet is on Tejas winning it and not Mar 16.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Jan 2016 16:56

Well at least 2 sqds of Raffys. Le Pigalle,Moulin Rouge,Tour Eiffel,Maxims,watch our Charlies go!

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 05 Jan 2016 20:25

Aha. This is the moment, isn't it? Order has been placed. Many years to think what we need, to what we select, to placing the order. Last one 'to receive deliveries' ...

Congratulations to all jingoes and GOI. In 1.5 years into the government, GOI managed to place the order.

So, Mr. Hollande being Chief Guest of 26th January, I always thought (rather dreamed) that "Kaash 4 Rafael's fly over surprisingly on Gantantra Divas". Will it happen?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Jan 2016 20:38

Nikhil T wrote:
viveks wrote:This is good. Mirage - 2000s have also been upgraded to fly more and with new electronic systems. IAF does not need more of these planes given the threat perception. Besides, the Mig-21 Bisons are also very capable aircraft and if upgraded again with Isreali help ..should be able to fly more.

With the political establishment making peace efforts with former enemy...a threat perception in south asia significantly reduces...

These aircraft with these numbers can certainly play a good role if any inadvertant incident arises.
Disagree. The IAF has repeatedly said they need more aircraft to reach the 42 squadron number for TSP+China and for next few years we're going to go lower in squadron strength. Not sure which enemy we've converted into "former enemy" - one of the lesson of '62 and '99 was that the environment can change very quickly in South Asia from jhappi to staring down the barrel.

Exactly.. if anything we need double the number of Rafales..and ASAP.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 05 Jan 2016 21:34

maxratul wrote:the race begins, who will form the first squadron - Tejas or Rafale?

Rafale

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Jan 2016 21:50

The French Prez better come with a couple of spanking new Rafales by month end.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 05 Jan 2016 22:20

dhiraj wrote:Rafale

We've ordered just two squadrons of Rafales with delivery concluding in 2024 (five years after the second Tejas squadron). So, I wouldn't count on it.

shravanp · Post by **shravanp** » 05 Jan 2016 22:32

Great news! Finally we get to see Katrina in IAF colors.

srai · Post by **srai** » 06 Jan 2016 05:06

Viv S wrote:
dhiraj wrote:Rafale
We've ordered just two squadrons of Rafales with delivery concluding in 2024 (five years after the second Tejas squadron). So, I wouldn't count on it.

There may be a push to get at least a handful (4-to-6 Rafales) ASAP (i.e. within 12-24 months) diverted from French AF orders (which is around 11 units/year). That would allow the IAF to begin squadron formation at the earliest opportunity. As for the rest of the 36 on order, it will take time to be fulfilled at around 6 units (or so) on average a year to begin after 36-months (2019) of the contract signing. Regular deliveries would take place between 2019 and 2024. But at least squadron operationalization could occur much earlier if an agreement with the French can be done like for the Egyptian deal. Let's see.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 06 Jan 2016 10:15

The first order of business is pilot and crew training. Quickly followed by logistics support as there is no point in getting the Rafale and then see less than 50% availability.

The IAF operates Jaguars, Hawks, Tejas, Mig-21/27/29, Su-30, Mirage 2000, and now the Rafale. Logistics support must be very costly.

habal · Post by **habal** » 06 Jan 2016 10:37

Mort Walker wrote: The IAF operates Jaguars, Hawks, Tejas, Mig-21/27/29, Su-30, Mirage 2000, and now the Rafale. Logistics support must be very costly.

bus mauja hi mauja. We can also operate other aircraft. We need to have fun too. It is not as if they are going to see serious war.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Jan 2016 11:09

Why can't we leverage the order as was done with the jags,a sqd. of Raffys asap from the Armee de l'air? These can be replaced later on with new Raffys. If there aren't any Raffys,then at least 2 sqds of M2Ks on lease! This will beef up the IAF's sqd strength and strike capability until the Raffys arrive.MP,are you listening?

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 06 Jan 2016 11:48

Philip wrote:Why can't we leverage the order as was done with the jags,a sqd. of Raffys asap from the Armee de l'air? These can be replaced later on with new Raffys. If there aren't any Raffys,then at least 2 sqds of M2Ks on lease! This will beef up the IAF's sqd strength and strike capability until the Raffys arrive.MP,are you listening?

Adding to that, is there some benefit if we were to consider purchasing 1-2 squadrons of Mirage 2000-5/9s from France on an immediate basis to shore up our Squadron numbers? We have been looking at getting our hands on additional Mirages for a while now, or atleast we were before the botched talks with Qatar.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jan 2016 16:59

Rafale Dogfighting

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jan 2016 18:53

the CDG and its 20 rafales have done precious little so far.

Sabyasachi · Post by **Sabyasachi** » 06 Jan 2016 19:30

Austin wrote:Rafale Dogfighting

Sitting in this jet will trigger my claustrophobia for sure, but then flying this beauty is not ''chai ka piyala'' of civilian like me.

.

Ergonomically Pilot is so well positioned, like he is sitting in a glass bubble with more than 180 degree view at any single plane (with few obvious blind spots behind him).

Just incredible.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jan 2016 19:34

we need more "large hunters" backed by huge numbers of Tejas.

rafale needs 3 fuel tanks to drop some 4 bombs @ 1500km combat radius which is the new norm for strike planes or lavish AAR support which none but the king loin can provide.

we need to invest in and keep improving the su30, perhaps lay in some 100 more for the lifecycle cost of 36 rafale and their uber expensive OEM support cycle.

a sharp lookin tesla with no ability to reach the fight is useless vs a F150 that can get to the fight and back.

for realistic self-escorted DPSA missions with no AAR support, the su30 has twice the bombload/headcount of a rafale when we consider cheap numerous HSLD bombs. hyper expensive AASMs even the french are scared to use too much, given their cost and production numbers.

rafale is nothing but indian fetish for elite gori flesh over desi dharmic woman(well not really desi but half-indic)

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 06 Jan 2016 20:58

king loin?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 06 Jan 2016 21:36

Why would 1500 km be the new norm? unless you are planning on either expeditionary warfare at a large scale (and dealing with basing headaches that accompany those ops), or buying something very specifically for one type of mission - long range strike? I think the current Rafale combat radius suits multiple missions against multiple potential targets. There is nothing wrong with carrying bags when you are on a strike mission and ditching them for those extra long range missions if required. While no one is going to start ditching bags on every mission, its a perfectly legitimate tactic for those 10% or less missions that even stress the conventional short-medium ranged strike missions. It is clear that the IAF had some specific missions in mind when they crafted the requirements for the program, given that almost all the aircraft in the competition can be classified as medium's as opposed to heavies. This class offers a good mix of both affordability through CPFH, and the ability to punch above their weight since unlike the light fighters their payload carrying capacity isn't significantly different from the heavies. Only area where they fall a bit short is range and they use bags for that. It is also the reason why such a class of fighters has been the most popular in the international market of late. A light fighter will always offer the most affordability, but significantly less flexibility. A heavy would offer tremendous flexibility but high cost. This class of aircraft balances the two and most twins that competed (F-18, Rafale, Mig-35, and EF Typhoon) offered a different mix of this capability and optimization..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jan 2016 21:48

>> Why would 1500 km be the new norm?

sire I threw that ball in based on your 1000nm strike radius hard requirement for the JSF and the future 1500nm LRS-B/ucav req to defeat the A2D cheen play. maybe I should have said 1600km to get a exact conversion

given the density of chinese fighter threat and liberal use of GLCM, SRBM and ALCMs from deep in their protected areas, the days of nalia,pathankot,hashimara type fwd bases are numbered. nobody can safely operate with such threats even if under a dense SAM cover.

neither we have the 150 refuelers of the king loin.

so we need to stage on own legs from much deeper within india to nullify the missile threat and retreat back there post-mission. it may only be a medium penetration BAI mission but the deep staging makes it a DPSAish thing in range from base to target.

things are only going to get worse once the chinese clone stealthy CMs of the kh101 type and deploy them enmasse for base suppression missions. with the "long sword" CJ10 range one can be sure even launches from deep within tibet and yunnan will cover the north half of india.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 06 Jan 2016 21:59

sire I threw that ball in based on your 1000nm strike radius hard requirement for the JSF and the future 1500nm LRS-B/ucav req to defeat the A2D cheen play. maybe I should have said 1600km to get a exact conversion

With the JSF you had two challenges :

- One was that of internal carriage i.e carrying bags wasn't really an option on most missions. Hence the large internal fuel requirement.
- Second was expeditionary warfare. The US has consistently lost access to bases and does not intend on having the same level of access, at the time of need it once did. Add to that the fact that unlike the F-16, the F-35 did not cheap out on sensor quality, or coverage. The radar onboard is significantly larger than the F-16 (at 1500 T/R Modules) and it contains an organic 360 degrees IR and RF targeting suite. Despite of all this the F-35 is still not a 1500 km radius fighter. More like 1000 km, although compared to any non-stealthy aircraft it will most certainly fly a profile much closer to optimal for fuel efficiency (medium altitude as opposed to fast and low) and take more range optimized routes to target. None of this is very possible in small (er) fighers without eating into future growth margins. Furthermore, over the last few decades its light fighter has been acting more like a medium-heavy fighter with the sorts of loads being put on the F-16 C's as far as fuel is concerned. Add to that the requirement for AAR and how that stresses that fleet, and you get an idea why the F-35 had to meet range-payload requirements for 90+% of F-16's envelope (External fuel) with internal fuel only.

The LRS-B had an A2AD challenge but that challenge does not apply to the IAF since it is fighting from home. The LRS-B's challenge is unique in that it needs to do long range strike, away from home over an area where the enemy holds conventional numerical superiority, and where they will be targeting support aircraft (like ISR, like Tankers etc). For that program safe refueling distance, and perhaps treaty obligations will dictate how much it does on internal fuel or more importantly, how stand-off can the tanker go and still provide penetrability in the pacific context. The IAF doesn't have that sort of requirement heavily dictating its operational requirements that led to the MMRCA if it did, that would have reflected in its requirements that would have excluded most besides the MKI, Su-34 and F-15E..

As a pure striker, there is always the option of adding CFT's to the rafale for extended range.

http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Mi ... s/3971.jpg