Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby John » 31 Jan 2016 07:09

Philip wrote:Just tidbits.A second USN littoral ship developed problems and has had to be taken in for rectification,as well as the RN's latest type 45 DDG which needs a complete refit of her power systems to cost millions!
Our warships equipped with UKR/Ru and GE engines appear to be doing much better.

IMO type 45 procurement was colossal failure if this happened in India the media would have had field day. Don't be surprised in a decade if RN tries to dump these vessels on some 3rd world nation and try to wash its hands clean off of it.

As for issue at hand WM 21 gas turbines are currently fitted on no other vessel other than Type 45s making the maintenance very expensive and they are bound to run into more surprises like this during its life cycle since there are no other operators. Without even including this latest hit, Type 45 already cost twice as much as Kolkata's when they were procured.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 31 Jan 2016 07:31

nobody will buy ships as expensive as the Type45....like the second QE2 carrier, I think 3 will be quickly kept in mothballs under reserve fleet to save on opex.

but the more accessible english reports mask the failure of the equally costly horizon class ships...again built for the AAW threat that went away. its all fremm ships now being built.
there has not been a single export customer of the class to amortize costs. a grand total of 4 built between france and italy.

Brits will invest in their type26 ffg and fraco-italians in the fremm of which 21 are built or building with chances of more exports albeit no small country wants anything more than lafayette these days.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Aditya G » 31 Jan 2016 12:09

Shows the prudence shown by IN in design of Project 15 and Project 17 ships.

Destroyers and frigates should be multi-role & general purpose. Corvettes and lower may be single mission. Both concepts are cost effective compared to the single mission destroyers (Type 45) and over armed corvettes.

Singha wrote:nobody will buy ships as expensive as the Type45....like the second QE2 carrier, I think 3 will be quickly kept in mothballs under reserve fleet to save on opex.

but the more accessible english reports mask the failure of the equally costly horizon class ships...again built for the AAW threat that went away. its all fremm ships now being built.
there has not been a single export customer of the class to amortize costs. a grand total of 4 built between france and italy.

Brits will invest in their type26 ffg and fraco-italians in the fremm of which 21 are built or building with chances of more exports albeit no small country wants anything more than lafayette these days.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby kit » 31 Jan 2016 12:45

John wrote:
Philip wrote:Just tidbits.A second USN littoral ship developed problems and has had to be taken in for rectification,as well as the RN's latest type 45 DDG which needs a complete refit of her power systems to cost millions!
Our warships equipped with UKR/Ru and GE engines appear to be doing much better.

IMO type 45 procurement was colossal failure if this happened in India the media would have had field day. Don't be surprised in a decade if RN tries to dump these vessels on some 3rd world nation and try to wash its hands clean off of it.

As for issue at hand WM 21 gas turbines are currently fitted on no other vessel other than Type 45s making the maintenance very expensive and they are bound to run into more surprises like this during its life cycle since there are no other operators. Without even including this latest hit, Type 45 already cost twice as much as Kolkata's when they were procured.


Aren't the type 45 publicised as having some uber radar ..samson ?? .. supposedly one of the best .. maybe the power requirements mandated a different engine ??

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby John » 01 Feb 2016 03:54

kit wrote:
Aren't the type 45 publicised as having some uber radar ..samson ?? .. supposedly one of the best .. maybe the power requirements mandated a different engine ??


I doubt power req for Sampson is anywhere close to SPY-1 i believe the main reason WR 21 joint venture was its improved efficiency . As for Sampson radar it is one of the most capable navy AESA radar's out there, it is high placement in the mast gives it superior radar detection again sea skimming missiles compared to other AAW DDGs out there. But however the emergence of APAR along with cheaper A/PESA radar diminished its export prospects.

Singha wrote:nobody will buy ships as expensive as the Type45....like the second QE2 carrier, I think 3 will be quickly kept in mothballs under reserve fleet to save on opex.

but the more accessible english reports mask the failure of the equally costly horizon class ships...again built for the AAW threat that went away. its all fremm ships now being built.
there has not been a single export customer of the class to amortize costs. a grand total of 4 built between france and italy.

Brits will invest in their type26 ffg and fraco-italians in the fremm of which 21 are built or building with chances of more exports albeit no small country wants anything more than lafayette these days.


Looking back royal navy should have simply procured modified Burke's instead of Type 45. This was considered to be blasphemy but many Royal navy advocates a decade ago but many now grudgingly admit that would have been right choice. Goes to show some times it is better to swallow your pride and go with foreign design to mitigate risks and deal with budget cutbacks.

GCS/Type 26 is well on its way to becoming another disaster it was supposed to be cheap surface combatant vessel cost around 500 mill pounds. But well on its way to costing over bill pounds each and has ballooned in size to close to 7000 tons. Which raises the question why not just procure modified type 45 destroyer. To make matters worse RN has already downsized the order yet again from 13 to 8 vessels for Type 26 don't be surprised if it cut yet again. All in the mean time the main selling point for GCS was supposed to be so called export prospects which appears to be slim to none since FREMM has already saturated the market for super frigates.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby member_29172 » 01 Feb 2016 04:26

does turdistan really need an aircraft carrier? US seems to be taking care of European defence pretty well right now. What are the brits trying to defend their country from?

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Shreeman » 01 Feb 2016 06:16

Mainly, they are trying to protect the hidden black energy produced by the kohinoor that powers all of londunistan from being stolen by the rightful owners in mirpur, sindh, bakistan. That will end energy shortages in bakistan and unlock its geostrategic potential. That cant be given to the chosen peoples. I hear that the august underwater vehicles have been modified to surface right under the tower of lundunistan and take the energy orb if the aircraft carrier goes in dock. Also, profesy: the day the orb is installed again in the mountain caves of mirpur it will give out a massive burst of djinn energy wiping all bad memories and ending hostilities in bakistan and towards bakistanis all the way to the eastern edge of the earth. The other three edges are on their own, though.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 01 Feb 2016 06:31

But well on its way to costing over bill pounds each and has ballooned in size to close to 7000 tons. Which raises the question why not just procure modified type 45 destroyer.

^ rotfl

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 01 Feb 2016 06:33

germany , spain, norway and dutch with more prudence in planning seem to have avoided the horizon/T45 issues and leverage cheaper technology. they have some good ships.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 01 Feb 2016 06:38

germany is build a F125 class 7200 tons but with no air defence barring a couple of RAM cells. very high on gun power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F125-class_frigate

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 01 Feb 2016 08:06

has the design of P17A been finalized and any public details?

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Shreeman » 01 Feb 2016 09:31

Singha wrote:But well on its way to costing over bill pounds each and has ballooned in size to close to 7000 tons. Which raises the question why not just procure modified type 45 destroyer.

^ rotfl


Crown has possessions. They need defending. Like from Argentina. Also, everyone and his uncle will be wanting their stuff back without such richards being available to display. Also pound will go on to mean only lb.

You can keep a large stick (and consequently a harem, of buffallo) or see the currency go to 70 vs the greenback, and every red cap dream of ghazwa.

The admiralty will get both its carriers, whether they can keep them up to snuff and with something to fly off or not. Money is now just paper. You print more if you need to relieve yourself.

The type 45s are great and all, but they are like the tridents and what not. Very limited in application. Might serve a great sea denial role but by no chance do they impress the lay person as QE would. Also, they cant do much in syria, or irak or eyeran. Those are great distractions for bradfordistan to not act naughty. The 45s will just be standing in the northwest corner of the grid as some nimitz escort, if that.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 01 Feb 2016 09:57

yes the most impressive T45 pics are as nimitz escort on exercises. even then the freeboard of the CVN is so high, it towers over the T45.

>>Money is now just paper. You print more if you need to relieve yourself.

lol true..the EU printing press has the CVN + $$ cover from across the atlantic. anything is possible under such protection bubble.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby John » 01 Feb 2016 10:21

F125 are over sized patrol boats, considering the migrant problems i can't blame them.

Singha wrote:has the design of P17A been finalized and any public details?


Construction will start next year, no word on design most likely an evolution of P17 with MF STAR and Barak-8.

http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/mumbai/work-on-stealth-frigates-for-navy-to-start-next-year-at-mazagon-docks/

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 01 Feb 2016 10:47

7000t if the wiki is true is a gigantic size for a gun armed sloop of sorts..no sonar, no real SAM, water cannons, searchlights.
but 50 SF soldiers , 2 helicopters (a rarity for euro ships), lean manning 50% cut in crew, high endurance in tropical conditions of 4 months....

I guess this is what the Type26 should have been to meet the emerging conditions around the world.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 01 Feb 2016 12:38

Media reports indicate that V.Adm.Lamba is likely to be the enw navy chief even as he takes on his new appointment as the chief of WNC.

http://www.india.com/news/india/vice-ad ... ef-906853/
Vice Admiral Sunil Lanba is new Western Naval Command chief
He took over the reins from Vice Admiral S.P.S. Cheema at a ceremonial parade held at INS Shikra.
By Indo-Asian News Service on January 31, 2016 at 3:51 PM

Mumbai, Jan 31: Vice Admiral Sunil Lanba on Sunday assumed office as the Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief (FOC-in-C) of the Western Naval Command (WNC) here, an official statement said. Lanba is next in line to be the Indian Navy chief.

He took over the reins from Vice Admiral S.P.S. Cheema at a ceremonial parade held at INS Shikra. Later in the day, officers of the Western Naval Command accorded Vice Admiral Cheema a warm send-off, with the traditional ‘Pulling Out’ ceremony. Vice Admiral Cheema retires on Sunday, after completing nearly four decades of service to the nation and the Navy. Vice Admiral Lanba, a specialist in navigation and direction and an alumnus of Defence Services Staff College, has very rich operational and staff experience over a career spanning more than three decades.

He has served as the navigating officer of INS Sindhudurg (Corvette) and INS Dunagiri (Frigate). During his illustrious service he commanded four frontline warships, namely INS Kakinada (Minesweeper), INS Himgiri (Frigate), INS Ranvijay, and INS Mumbai (Destroyers). Vice Admiral Lanba is also an alumnus of the College of Defence Management, Secunderabad, where he also served as the faculty member. (ALSO READ: International Fleet Review: India to exhibit geopolitical strength in Vizag; 52 nations to participate in joint navy exercise)

He has also held important staff assignments such as Fleet Operations Officer of the Western Fleet and Chief of Staff, Southern and Eastern Naval Commands. He has also been the Flag Officer Sea Training; Flag Officer Commanding Maharashtra and Gujarat Naval Area; Commandant, National Defence College; and Vice Chief of Naval Staff.

He was the Commander-in-chief of the Southern Naval Command at Kochi prior to being appointed to head the premier operational Command of the Indian Navy. Vice Admiral Lanba is a recipient of the Param Vishist Seva Medal and the Athi Vishist Seva Medal for distinguished service of an exceptionally high order.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby nits » 01 Feb 2016 14:04


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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby titash » 01 Feb 2016 22:53

John wrote:F125 are over sized patrol boats, considering the migrant problems i can't blame them.

Singha wrote:has the design of P17A been finalized and any public details?


Construction will start next year, no word on design most likely an evolution of P17 with MF STAR and Barak-8.

http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/mumbai/work-on-stealth-frigates-for-navy-to-start-next-year-at-mazagon-docks/


I always wondered why the need for 2 parallel lines of indigenous warships: P-15A/B & P-17A...all these 14 warships are ~ 6500 ton range, will carry 2 helicopters, Barak-8/MF-STAR, Brahmos, HUMSA-NG + ATAS. The only major differences will be propulsion and possibly the amount of "stealth". Might as well nail down on 1 design and mass produce in 3-4 shipyards.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby member_28700 » 02 Feb 2016 10:57

The design team also needs some work yaar :wink:

On a more serious note, we are still experimenting with our stealth designs.
Also the difference between the FFGs and DDGs is actually about 1500 tons.
You dont need 7500 ton behemoths for every exercise. Gives you flexibility.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Aditya G » 02 Feb 2016 11:20

MARCOS "zulu" boat. Any idea who has manufactured these? Far better than the gemini type boat they took on 26/11 from INS Abhimanyu



Project-15A/B vs Project-17A

I think the biggest difference is the propulsion (Zorya vs GE). Secondly whole Project-15 hull and basic design is proven, Project 17 was still on drawing boards. Perhaps a case of IN hedging its bets. Other than that Project-17 ships are practically destroyers. Infact, Shivaliks have curiously omitted TTs, though one forum member noted that it is part of the upgrade.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 02 Feb 2016 12:26

X-posted in the Intl. td. more details there. It would be interesting to see if any of our desi-designed warships have experienced similar problems as the power reqs for modern warships equipped with so many sensors and weapon systems are very demanding.

!http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/12128889/Royal-Navys-warships-face-major-engine-refit-amid-reliability-concerns.html

Royal Navy's £1bn new warships need major engine refit after power failures
Ministry of Defence confirms that six Type 45 destroyers are to undergo refits as they keep breaking down

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby titash » 03 Feb 2016 00:55

Interesting pic of the Saryu class OPVs...looks like the Rukmini SATCOM has proliferated down to OPVs as well; not just Frigates/Destroyers.

Image

I can imagine 2-3 of these OPVs being used as convoy escorts in conjunction with a P-15* or P-17* providing distant cover. They provide high endurance; with SATCOM & NCW capability, these OPVs should be able to use data from the distant frigate/destroyer/P-8I and fend off an enemy sub using their integral helicopter.

One interesting question...the helipad is clearly sized for a SeaKing/SeaHawk. Wonder if the hanger can take the 10-ton helicopter or is restricted to a 5-ton aircraft.

Image

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Aditya G » 03 Feb 2016 01:19

^ Ideally, it should be the other way around. Saryu should have an onboard radar and act as advance radar picket for the big boys who can go in stealthy. Alternatively, if Saryu had onboard AShMs then Kolkata could have used them to attack from unexpected axis.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby titash » 03 Feb 2016 02:39

Aditya G wrote:^ Ideally, it should be the other way around. Saryu should have an onboard radar and act as advance radar picket for the big boys who can go in stealthy. Alternatively, if Saryu had onboard AShMs then Kolkata could have used them to attack from unexpected axis.


Most likely in any shooting war the PN surface units will stay bottled up in Gwadar/Omara, or have a very brief existence. The most likely assets they will use are their subs and Mirage-5/JF-17 maritime strike units.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby John » 03 Feb 2016 03:53

Aditya G wrote:^ Ideally, it should be the other way around. Saryu should have an onboard radar and act as advance radar picket for the big boys who can go in stealthy. Alternatively, if Saryu had onboard AShMs then Kolkata could have used them to attack from unexpected axis.


Saryu don't have the speed to keep pace with the fleet let alone lead attacks.

Aditya G wrote:I think the biggest difference is the propulsion (Zorya vs GE). Secondly whole Project-15 hull and basic design is proven, Project 17 was still on drawing boards.

Yes you are right. P15s are more of safe bet where as P17 serve more as advanced vessel fitted with western propulsion, more advanced stealth features/cleaner design and newer construction techniques. Also P15 are close to nearing their end in terms of evolution cannot stretch it any longer. A future DDG design will be evolution of P17A IMO.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Sid » 03 Feb 2016 04:46

Did they butcher this ship for the sake of IFR? Gun mount is removed, and an elevated platform put in place with shades for VIP view.

Could have used some small civi cruiser to move folks around for demo, like presidential yacht.

Image

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Gagan » 03 Feb 2016 05:30

Is the Arihant going to be a part of the fleet review?

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby sankum » 03 Feb 2016 08:50

Image

INS Vikrant model at IFR2016

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby tsarkar » 03 Feb 2016 09:01

Sid wrote:Did they butcher this ship for the sake of IFR?
Temporary modification. for the 1989 fleet review, the minesweeper Pondicherry was modified and later reverted to operational fit. For 2006 review, INS Sukanya was used, though removing her Bofors 40/60 mount was simpler.

Much better option than having a dedicated presidential yacht that would be barely used. The IAF AFHQCS BBJ are barely used because of the President/PM barely travel domestically and they lack range for international travel. With IAF taking over Boeing 777/787 from Air India, the use of BBJ will further reduce.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 03 Feb 2016 09:34

cant they just raise a shamiana over the heli deck in back or must the C-in-C stand straight backed on the bow itself?

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Sid » 03 Feb 2016 09:43

But then C-in-C cannot have his titanic moment, hence ship will end up sailing backwards. That's why they have special enclosure near the anchor chains so that he can enjoy his perfect titanic pose.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Jaeger » 03 Feb 2016 10:48

So I've always wondered - why doesn't the Vikrant have a bulbous bow? Overall, we seem not prefer bulbous bows in our indigenous design - even our bow sonar installations - which are making an appearance only on our latest designs - seem a little more conservative than others'. Compare:
P28: http://goo.gl/oor2nZ
P17: http://goo.gl/Ws9ryF
P15A: https://goo.gl/BGDDF6
versus, say:
Type 26: http://goo.gl/c9QGw4
FREMM: http://goo.gl/u9d2Hl
KDX-II: http://goo.gl/zlRl5z
QE II: http://goo.gl/3UNXjQ (just the bow)

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Aditya G » 03 Feb 2016 12:22

John wrote:
Aditya G wrote:^ Ideally, it should be the other way around. Saryu should have an onboard radar and act as advance radar picket for the big boys who can go in stealthy. Alternatively, if Saryu had onboard AShMs then Kolkata could have used them to attack from unexpected axis.


Saryu don't have the speed to keep pace with the fleet let alone lead attacks.


True. I am thinking something else. These OPVs are deployed near Somalia or South China Sea ... if there was a ship board air search radar like Revathi, Saryu can relay aircraft movements via satellite. Effectively acting as a AEW or forward radar picket like a mobile 3D-CAR.

In Pakistan context we could rather have a OPV radiating at a safe distance while the Killer squadron moves in to unleash havoc on Karachi.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Aditya G » 03 Feb 2016 12:24

sankum wrote:Image

INS Vikrant model at IFR2016


Excellent elevator placement and sponsons all round for Cwiz placement. This ship will truly "maximize" the STOBAR carrier concept, perhaps even beating the much larger Liaoning in overall capability.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby titash » 03 Feb 2016 20:38

Aditya G wrote:
sankum wrote:Image

INS Vikrant model at IFR2016


Excellent elevator placement and sponsons all round for Cwiz placement. This ship will truly "maximize" the STOBAR carrier concept, perhaps even beating the much larger Liaoning in overall capability.


I would agree...a purpose built carrier with reliable propulsion & optimal elevator/flight deck/SAM layout will greatly improve operations...will result in low cycle time, low downtime, 360 degree self defence, etc. when compared to the half-ass VikAd & Kuz classes.

IIRC the Kuz spends 9-10 more time in a dockyard than in actual sailing, and she is accompanied by a tug at all times.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby tsarkar » 05 Feb 2016 11:28

Good news for those bikers wishing to ride the spirit of INS Vikrant

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/auto/bajaj- ... 98015.html

Image

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 06 Feb 2016 20:10

Image

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 06 Feb 2016 20:10

Image

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 06 Feb 2016 20:12

Image

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 06 Feb 2016 20:12

get the rest of hi-res meat here boys ...

https://ifr16.indiannavy.gov.in/photo-g ... 1149083873


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