Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

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sudeepj
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby sudeepj » 05 Feb 2016 20:38

ramana wrote:
sudeepj wrote:From the visuals, it looks like a slab failure on a really steep slope, which then fell on top of the camp. In such a condition with millions of tonnes of rock/ice falling on you at hundreds of kms an hour, there isnt anything in the world that can save you from being ground to a fine powder. The airbags/beacons work in smaller avalanches that are usually triggered by the person himself walking on a weak slab of ice/snow. Useful for when patrols are going out, not so much when you have the mountain side itself falling on top of you.

Aroor has posted a clear pic of the avalanche site.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaYC1YuUcAAbVny.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaXgh--UEAAph1X.jpg:large

In the picture, it looks like there were huge cornices overlooking the campsite. Does the Siachen brigade practice avalanche control? By firing on the cornices to make them collapse before they get too big and dangerous?



Sudeepj, Very succinct summary of the situation. Yes avalanche is a hazard but a massive slab failure is a disaster.
All you can do is active avalanche control by breaking it up early or siting relocation which is not feasible here.
Don't know if Himalayan Mountaineering Institute (HMI) has avalanche control practices as SOP.

Do we have before pictures to understand the situation?

That picture looks like massive snowfall from the avalanche.


At the risk of being castigated, in ski resorts in the west, its routine to make slopes safer by using old 106mm RCLs with special rounds. But that is for much smaller slabs. For a deep slab failure like this, I am not sure if that would help. This was likely a slab that had been stable for hundreds of years, till one day, perhaps because of climactic changes, it slipped. Its also difficult to predict these in advance because of the featureless nature of Siachen. Usually, fallen trees etc can give an indication that there have been large avalanches in the past on a particular slope and that site may be avoided. All in all, a perfect storm. Its a little concerning that Gyari and Sonam avalanches took place in quick succession.. This type of failure may be becoming more frequent because of whatever reason. I think many posts siting will need to be reevaluated. Now that the fighting has stopped, this may be feasible.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby SaiK » 05 Feb 2016 20:48

shiv wrote:Regarding all the useful suggestions being made on here, I have a question

Soldiers have been on Siachen fo4 32 years. We have been losing a few dozen men a year since then. Why did you guys not make all these suggestions earlier. Why did all you intelligent folks wait for 10 men to die to come up with all this brilliance?


We were thrust-ed upon by a governance model that people out in public can't be suggesting how we have to protect ourselves.

reverse pooch: why not consider now for a future prevention of more lives?

saab ji, you are trying hard to sustain the 10 deaths per year model.

arshyam, constraints doesn't mean there can't be a design for it.

member_29172
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby member_29172 » 06 Feb 2016 04:33

So, do you have a solution saik? what are you bringing to the table? Figured something out?

shiv
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 06 Feb 2016 05:20

sudeepj wrote:
shiv wrote:Regarding all the useful suggestions being made on here, I have a question

Soldiers have been on Siachen fo4 32 years. We have been losing a few dozen men a year since then. Why did you guys not make all these suggestions earlier. Why did all you intelligent folks wait for 10 men to die to come up with all this brilliance?


What's your point? If someone knows of a cool new technology or process, they should keep quiet lest it offend some army rakshak? Or u think there is absolutely no room for improvement in process or technology when it comes to the army?

My point is very simple - and I must point out that I am irritated by what sounds like the utter stupidity of some suggestions. There are suggestions for building structures that will survive avalanches. But men have to move around, and walk through dangerous areas. Building structures on snow is no solution. Talking about buildings that survive avalanches built on snow is in my view a stupid idea. Sooner or later men have to leave that building and move tens of km on that snow.

My only regret is that since I made my comment yesterday I have been unable to find a poignant story of a group of men in Siachen when one fell in a crevasse. he was crying out in pain. A rescuer went down and found that the man was inextricably stuck. The man had to leave him, with a gun. The latter shot himself.

Akshay Kapoor
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 06 Feb 2016 05:57

+ 1 Shiv

What hurts is that some posters without any knowledge and no appreciation of the op compulsions come out with half baked suggestions just to satisfy their own egos. It is impossible to understand the compulsions of tactical situations without experiencing them first hand. Commenting sensibly on aero dynamics or radar systems on LCA or Naval threads is still possible without direct experience, but not on tactical and operational aspects especially in army operations.

The army learns its lessons on a tactical level especially in CI Ops and Siachen because losing men is very painful. As a subaltern in the 90s we had some casualties in CI Ops. It was taken very seriously by all of us not only in the unit, but in right up to Div level. How do you think drills evolve ? The Corps Battle School is a great example of constant learning from operations.

Going back to the casualties we had , we constantly asked oursleves what we could have done differently. But after a lot of analysis and soul searching we YOs realised that the CO was right - there was nothing we could have done. Sometimes casualties do happen. It is an occupational hazard. And no one feels it more than the unit. And now having worked in the corporate sector both in India and the UK, I can say with absolute confidence that the army is far better at adapting and learning from mistakes (at the tactical level) than the corporate sector.

So please don't insult these brave Thambis by giving half baked suggestions. I can assure you that all aspects of improving predictability of nature, equipment, communication, rescue will have been looked into many times and is being looked into as we type.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby arshyam » 06 Feb 2016 06:48

shiv wrote:My only regret is that since I made my comment yesterday I have been unable to find a poignant story of a group of men in Siachen when one fell in a crevasse. he was crying out in pain. A rescuer went down and found that the man was inextricably stuck. The man had to leave him, with a gun. The latter shot himself.

It's right here on BRF sir: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6377&start=3840

The post marker is broken, so you will need to scroll down a bit to find the post by jamwal-ji.

jamwal wrote:ROPE
By Capt Raghu Raman
----
‘So you see I am coming back from a funeral, figuratively. Because the body is up there inside a
crevasse and will be there, from here to eternity.’
‘You are…’ I began.
‘Yes. I am the Base Commander at the base camp.’
We finished our drinks, rose and left for our rooms. Of course I did not believe a word of what he said.
Things just don’t happen that way do they ?
The author was posted in the Siachen Glacier for a year. He wrote several stories of his experiences in the Glacier. This one was published in 1995 in the Infantry Journal.

Added later:
The author of the article has posted the full article on his website as well, in case one wants to bookmark it:
http://www.captraman.com/stories-from-t ... -rope.html
Last edited by arshyam on 06 Feb 2016 11:25, edited 1 time in total.

Raja Bose
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Raja Bose » 06 Feb 2016 06:51

shiv wrote:My only regret is that since I made my comment yesterday I have been unable to find a poignant story of a group of men in Siachen when one fell in a crevasse. he was crying out in pain. A rescuer went down and found that the man was inextricably stuck. The man had to leave him, with a gun. The latter shot himself.


Here it is (posting in full). BTW the soldier didn't shoot himself, he was garroted by the rescue team leader. That's how harsh that environment is for our troops. I agree, the least we can do is not trivialize their sacrifice by suggesting 'cool new' ideas without any serious contemplation or thought. Siachen is not a science fair.

ROPE
By Capt Raghu Raman

Chandigarh. The last link between madness and sanity. I arrived in the late hours of the night. It
was bitterly cold. Usually is, this time of the year. Clear sky though. They told me there was a
confirmed flight next morning with my name on the manifest.
There was nothing to do but to kill the night. The bar at 204 transit mess is a purely functional
one. Meant for serious binging. Then again it’s probably one where most men go to seek solace in the proverbial chalice.
I knew it was a mistake the moment I entered. The only other occupant of the bar was the old
man. Clutching his drink as if it was his last. Late forties, I guessed. That would make him a
colonel, unless of course he had been shafted somewhere along the trail.
The barman looked at me, not very pleased that another had wandered in. Understandable,
considering the late hour. I was in two minds, but then what the hell, those who are about to die
and that kind of stuff.

There was no alternative but to sit next to the old man. There were just two stools. The light was too dim to see him clearly. Nodding the obligatory ‘good evening sir’, I slid into the stool next to him. He tried to lift his head, but somewhere in between decided that the effort was not worth it and muttered a reply. The barman shuffled to me, disrelish very evident on his face.

‘Drink sahib?’ he asked. Perhaps still hoping that I had come to use the telephone or something.
Large whisky, soda’ I said dashing his hopes.
After I took a swig I turned to the old man. He might have been made of stone for all the movement he made so far. Of course, there was no doubt that he was stoned.
‘Coming back from leave sir? I ventured.
I got a grunt for a reply.

Come to think of it, that was a pretty stupid question. A man coming down the glacier would hardly hang around the transit camp would he? But then I had to sound polite and if he wanted to be left alone, well mud in his eye I guess. I finished my drink and motioned to the barman for a refill. Belligerently he poured another and stood back.

‘Cigarette, Navy Cut’ I asked the barman.
‘Sorry Sahib, only Charms’ he replied, happy that he had managed to pique me in his own small
way.
‘Not even a packet’ I persisted.
‘No sahib, only Charms’ was the delighted reply.
At this the old man slid something across the bar. It was the packet of the brand I had asked for. I mumbled my thanks and thought if I should mouth the perfunctory denial before I pinched his
fags, but then on second thoughts, he didn’t look the sort of person who would insist.
As I lit the cigarette he spoke.
‘I am coming back from a funeral’


Oh hell, now the chap has started and he is going to tell me his whole story, I thought. Last thing I wanted to hear about in this place was a funeral. Not the sort of thing to get cheered up on the way to the glacier.

But then I had asked for it, so here goes. ‘Someone in the family sir?’
He looked up sharply, ‘You could say that"
It wasn’t a very pleasant beginning.

Two months ago they told me about the option of volunteering for a stint in the glacier. Like
many officers, I had no idea about what it involved except that it was frightfully cold. Back then I had been going through some problems in my unit and I thought that it would be a change if nothing else. I suppose I should have been suspicious at the alacrity with which my posting was effected, but of course, now it was too late. Here I was on my way up. Taking a last drink at a decent altitude. I was keen on knowing more about this supposed hell hole. After all, I was going to spend the
next year up there; and hoping to come back in one piece. I was inquisitive purely for this reason.

‘An accident perhaps?’ I continued.
‘ Yes. At the glacier’
‘How?’ I persisted.
The old man took a long breath and shifted his frame. I could see his face in better light now.
Definitely a commanding officer or thereabouts, I decided. They get this gleam in their eyes when they become one I suppose.
‘You going up for the first time?’
‘Yes’
‘Ah’ he responded as if my naiveté was the reason for my persistence. ‘Sure you want to hear
about this?’ he continued.
‘Of course sir, anything I could find out about the glacier is welcome’

The old man began the story. No doubt, he was either drunk or simply pulling my leg. I mean
things don’t happen that way, do they? If there was a place on earth that could represent hell, this would be it. Siachen. A stony dead freezing wasteland, blanketed with ice through eternity. The only sign of life being the glacier itself. Like some prehistoric monster, twisting and slithering sinuously. Pulverizing or sweeping away everything in its path.

Scimitar like winds swoops from the mountains surrounding the glacier, buffeting and crashing into the sheer cliffs. The unimaginable cold chills the very marrow of the bones, like millions of tiny needles. Slicing through clothing, skin and gristle. And the icy chill, that benumbs the body and desensitizes the mind. Degenerating and finally sapping the very will to survive. It is a place where even the sun capitulates, and shines impotently. The locals dread the place. Not that there are very many of them. The site of death, they call it.

Just like evil is sometimes beautiful, so is the glacier. Overpowering in its awesome grandeur. And yet, in the most beautiful of its moments, death lurks just a footstep away. Many killers stalk the glacier. The most lethal of them are the avalanche and the crevasse. Between the two, the latter is more feared and for good reasons. The avalanche usually predicts its wrath. It behaves in an understandable pattern. There are identifiable avalanche prone areas. Cliff walls whose sheer gradient cannot sustain the tons of
load that is brought to bear on it during the night’s snow fall. Places which receive sun’s rays through a longer period of the day causing the ice to behave as viscous layers. Or even spots where due to a quirk of nature, the mountains behave like the prongs of a fork. A faint reverberation between them, amplifies a million times, waking the sleeping giants from their slumber.


Despite its destructive potential the avalanche can be avoided through the simple expedients of precaution or pre-emption. With experience, it is possible to choose routes that avoid the avalanche’s footprint. If that was not practical, an avalanche can be set off using explosives, before it strikes. But the best method, and the simplest, was to restrict all movements to the early hours of the morning, when the cold binds the ice mass onto the slopes.


They demand respect, but if given that, the avalanches usually forgive their victims.
Not the crevasse.
As the glacier convulses in its serpentine motion, it creates deep cracks or crevasses. These bottomless chasms, seem to run to the bowels of earth. A rock thrown into some of these crevasses clatter for a long time before they fade out of hearing and yet not reach the bottom. Crevasses seem to have lives of their own. Almost as if each one had a distinct character. Which perhaps they do.
The Glacier’s torque and twisting shapes them, giving them a form. This sometimes remains unchanged for years. At other times it is mercurial like a snowflake. Some crevasses are narrow and straight, almost parallel, in their slice to the core of the earth. Other’s twist and turn on their way to the depths. Some have broad gaping mouths, at times as wide as a mile. Others a slit, just enough for a knife’s blade.

Crevasses are more like treacherous assassins, lying in lurk for its quarry. Almost as if the glacier was a beast which evolved its own ways to trap and kill its prey. Falling snowflakes land on the lips of the crevasses. When the width of the mouth is just right,
those that freeze there, become a receptacle for other flakes and an intricate lattice of ice forms across the mouth of the crevasse. This sort of ‘ice bridge’ has been known to sustain the weight of several tons. Indeed, who knows how many such crevasses exist beneath the thick layer of ice. But at other times, this crust breaks, swallowing the unfortunate soul crossing it. And once the crevasse struck, escape was rare.

The only defense against a crevasse was the ‘Rope’. When men moved across such terrain, they tied themselves to each other using a long rope. Between each man there is generally a slack of eight to ten feet. That way if ever one or more were unfortunate enough to discover the existence of a crevasse the hard way, they still stood a chance of staying alive. A group of men traveling in this manner is called a ‘rope’. And so it was the early hours of the morning that the ‘rope’ set out on its journey across the
twelve kilometers that would bring them to the forward post. This particular one consisted of eight men, a usual number.


The load each carried though, was more than usually heavy. The summers were fast approaching. (About four months of the year are euphemistically called ‘summer’ because the temperatures are slightly higher them). It was imperative to stock all the posts with provisions, before the campaigning season began, especially the liquid gold of glacier - kerosene. In addition to the equipment, each man was carrying a jerry can of the oil, pushing the all told weight to almost 50 Kilos each. The loads were carried on backs using a frame of aluminum harness, thereby keeping the hands free. The going was especially strenuous that day. It hadsnowed heavily through the night and the surface had still not hardened completely.


Each footstep went down ankle deep. There was a strong cross wind with the gusts abruptly changing directions, staggering the men off balance. The men were very tired. Yet it was better to keep moving than to stop. To halt would mean to let the thin film of sweat freeze in an instant, sapping yet more of the precious body heat. And the thought of the warmth and rest just three
kilometers away spurred them on. It was then that, without warning, that the crevasse struck. In retrospect it was quite simple to deduce why it could have happened to the last person on the rope. The crust, which had formed over the crevasse, had in all probability been weakened by the passage of seven men across it. Each man’s footstep, boring just a little more into the layer.
And it broke below the feet of the last man. Before he had the time to release the scream of terror, he was plunged into the crevasse. The seven feet of slack accelerated his body weight and the full force of the pull transmitted to the men ahead. It was a very wrong place to be caught.


Most of the men were on an uphill slope and the ground afforded little purchase. Four of the men were immediately jerked off their feet. Those who had the presence of mind went flat on the ground and struck in their ice picks. But the picks ploughed uselessly through the powdery snow and the whole rope was being pulled slowly, towards the crevasse. Each man in the rope realized the danger that was beckoning them just a few feet away. The panicked struggles of the man inside the crevasse were causing the entire rope to be dragged gradually but surely into the crevasse. His screams of terror and gyrations only reminded each man of the fate that awaited them. The Patrol Leader screamed at the man inside to stay still, and after what appeared to be an eternity, he seemed to be able to control his panic and stopped moving.


Each man froze in is place. The worst nightmare of any soldier doing the "link" was unfolding in front of them. They knew that they were caught in a trap. Any motion they made slid them closer to the crevasse and towards certain doom. Despite the jerk of the fall, the patrol leader thankfully realized that his radio was still near him. He inched towards it. And his movement caused a fresh drag toward the lip of the crevasse. The situation was obvious. Any attempt to move was to invite disaster. It was a stalemate. The
crevasse had played its hand. The next move was left to the men.

The patrol leader had no choice. ‘Cut the rope’ He shouted at the penultimate man who was closest to the lip of the crevasse.
There was an wave of shock amongst the men. To cut the rope was to abandon all chance of saving their comrade dangling between life and death. Almost all chances at least. Yet the more experienced among them realized that the command though brutal, was the only course of action left to be taken. It was clear that the pull caused by the man inside the crevasse was threatening all of them. Their attempts to move had proved just that. And to wait endlessly expecting the situation to change was suicidally stupid. If anything, it would only get worse. The winds would soon freeze them and the last vestiges of energy would be drained battling the cold.
They were caught in an impasse and they realized that. Besides while they lay pinned, they were powerless to help the man inside. He would dangle there until incredibly low temperature of the interior of the crevasse reduced him to a lump of ice. Despite the logic it is hard to be the one to cut a man’s lifeline. The soldier drew the knife in his hand but was hesitating.


‘Cut it Damn you’ the patrol leader shouted with fresh venom.


The lash of the order moved the man involuntarily and the blade sliced through the rope. They could hear the fresh scream of terror as the man inside felt his lifeline give way. But abruptly it stopped. The men gathered themselves and rushed to the lip of the crevasse. They peered in and what they saw was another miracle of the glacier. The men heaved a sigh of relief.

If they could get help in time, maybe there was a chance after all. The patrol leader ran back to his radio and began shouting into it.
Ten minutes later, the news of the accident was relayed to the Base camp. The Base camp is located at the tail of the glacier. Here the glacier succumbs to the decrease of altitude, losing solidity. Melting into a trickle, it meanders into the river Shoyk towards the west. The base camp is also the point where the glacier technically starts. It is a logistic and rescue base rolled into one. The specially trained rescue team at the base camp has an unenviable job. They are called upon to effect rescue missions to virtually all crisis that occur in the glacier. And there are enough of them to keep them busy.

As soon as the code word for an accident was blared on the loud speaker at the base camp, the rotors of two helicopters began their beat. They would require about 10 minutes of warming up before the blades could painfully gather enough purchase in the thin atmosphere. And even then, they would be able to transport just one man; at the most, to the altitude they had to operate at. The rescue team itself was in the control room finding out what information they could gather. Which at this stage was not much.
‘Man down in crevasse’ said the base commander.


This particular team was being led by a much younger man. ‘How long?’ he asked as he looked at the map in front of them. He was not particularly bothered about the location . That was the job of the pilots; who were charting a flight plan towards the
rescue point. But he had to know the vital information about which area the crevasse was in, simply because each area had it’s own peculiarities.
‘Could be anywhere upto 45 minutes, maybe more. Add the flying time and maybe it would be closer to an hour before you get there.’ said the base commander quite pessimistically.
‘Lousy timing’ said the senior pilot as he looked out of the window.

They all understood what he meant. It was another of the glacier’s peculiarities. The main valley which contained the glacier averaged the breadth of a kilometer. The glacier itself was fed from the countless smaller and very narrow valleys, many of which hardly ever saw the light of the day because of their narrow mouths and winding structure. As the sun rose during the day, it warmed the air on the glacier. The white iridescent snow acted as a powerful reflector and the air mass was quickly heated.


As the hot air started rising the colder air from the feeder valleys rushed in to fill the vacuum. This incoming gust created a phenomenon akin to high speed gales which treacherously shifted its direction and speed. That made flying over the glacier more difficult, as noon approached. And a virtual impossibility after noon.

The pilot glanced at his watch. ‘Three hours max. Do your stuff in that time and we can get back home’ he told the rescue team commander. ‘We are ready when you are.’ The team consisting of four was taken in two lifts. While the helicopter was flying towards the accident site, another rescue team had started from the parent unit. This team also consisting of four, was being transported in snow scooters. In addition to the standard rescue gear, they were carrying hot beverages for the stranded men. Both the teams arrived almost simultaneously at the site.

The helicopter marked the site of the accident and then deliberately veered away to find the drop point which would spare the men below the blast of the rotors down wash. The patrol leader received the rescue team and they started towards the crevasse. The helicopters started on their way back to ferry the second lift.

‘It’s incredible’ said the Rescue Team Commander, looking down the crevasse, as he shook his head in disbelief.

This crevasse plunged straight down for about 30 feet before it narrowed and sharply twisted at an angle. It was this twist which had saved the man inside. While he dropped, his body had got stuck into the wedge made by the twist and he lay there jammed between the two walls of the crevasse.

The Team commander swung the powerful beam of his flash light beyond the man but could see nothing but darkness. He moved the beam back towards the victim. That was another surprise. The fall itself did not seem to have hurt him much. He was still conscious and coherent. They could only see his upper body but there were no signs of blood. Also he could move his arms
weakly, another good sign. But there was no telling- below his waist. Preliminary examination over, the rescue team started their work. First they would anchor the man to a rope. To prevent him from slipping further down. They started clearing the snow on a
spot near the edge of the crevasse to find the hard ice surface beneath. Firm enough to hold the piton, which would take the load of the team going in and the victim, when he was brought out.

While the Team Commander worked he was thinking out his strategy. Crevasse rescue is a complicated task. More often than not, crevasses have overhangs. That usually means icicles growing downward, which ruled out a straight pull. The victim would simply be impaled on the icicles. The work around was to slither down, level to the victim, and anchor him to one’s own body. Then heave the victim away from the crevasse wall using both legs and hands. Each heave had to be timed perfectly with rhythmic pull of the rope above, lest they be dragged across the wall. In this case mercifully, there were no icicles but still the victim was stuck for some time. That meant he would be dead weight.


In any case his legs are a goner, he thought. Forty minutes in the deep freeze and the doctors have no option but to chop them off. Still that was not his to worry. It would come later. His preparations finished, he straightened and turned around. They could hear the drone of the approaching helicopters, getting the second set of men.

One last bit remained. They had to know how deep the crevasse was. This was a tricky part. The rescue team has to know the score. They need to know whether the crevasse is very deep or relatively shallow. Makes world of a difference to the way they work.
If it is reasonably shallow, they can at times take risks, secure in the knowledge that a mistake will not plunge them into the depths. It was against rules, but the team sometimes would take off their own safety harness to work unencumbered. However determining the depth is left till the very end. Usually just before the rescue team is going in.

There’s good reason for that too. The reactions of a crevasse victim follow a predictable cycle. The initial moments when he falls in, are of sheer terror. Nobody obviously knows what happens to those who don’t make it, but those who are eventually rescued, gain a fair control of their nerves after a little while. And when they see and sense that efforts are on to rescue them, some even become confident enough to appear positive. They do know that it is not going to be for free. But losing a few digits or maybe even a limb to frostbite is relatively a small price to pay to stay alive.

That is so in the cases when the victim can see that the horror that has struck him, is not so horrible after all.
But there are occasions when the victim discovers that the situation he is in, is actually worse that what it appeared. This new found knowledge can be the trigger which sparks off a wave of fresh panic. In instances like this one. By this time the victim would have certainly lost all sensation of his body. Might even be fooling himself that his legs are resting on the bottom of the crevasse. If at this juncture he were to discover that he’s stuck in a bottomless chasm, it would be like a weak swimmer detecting that he’s at the deep end of the pool. But it had to be done. As unobtrusively as possible, the TeamCommander dropped the chunk of solid ice into the crevasse.

‘Shit’ mouthed the commander involuntarily. The continual clatter of the stone confirmed their worst fear. The crevasse was very deep.

The Team Commander adjusted his harness and started down into the crevasse, his mate playing out the anchor rope while he descended. The rest of the rescue team had reached. They began harnessing themselves to follow.‘Mike One to base. We are in’ one of them spoke into the radio. Fifteen kilometers and twelve thousand feet below, the voice crackled out of the speaker, telling
the base that the attempt had commenced. As always the base control room was occupied by the members who advised the team actually on ground. Most of the men in the room had a lot more experience to draw upon. The doctor was there too, to counsel about on site resuscitation. Their main purpose was to coordinate other resources that might be demanded by the team up there.
And they had another task.

To veto any idea that might be endanger the lives of more men. The last job was the most unpalatable one. Indeed the control room has had its share of casualties. The men looked at the clock on the wall. Most eyes turned automatically towards the doctor. He had been waiting for their unspoken query.
‘Slim, very slim’ was all he said.
‘Base, we are coming back’ the voice of the helicopter crew came through. The first part of the chopper crew’s job was over. The second part was to get the team and the victim back. Something that they did not always achieve. On many a occasion their return
manifest comprised the same number as their inbound one, and in especially unfortunate instances - less.

It was decided that the close confines of the crevasse permitted only two men to work at a time. The remaining two stood ready to relieve those inside or to effect a secondary rescue. It was not unknown for a member of the rescue team himself to be trapped inside, necessitating another rescue in the bargain.
The Team Commander reached level with the victim. The relief on the face of the victim was obvious. The commander drew his arms around the victim as the second man of the team slid a looped harness around the upper body of the victim. If nothing else he was not going to plunge any deeper into the crevasse.

On closer scrutiny the situation became apparent to the rescuers. Their man was stuck between the walls of the crevasse. There was no option but to pull him free. Tough job, but not something they had not done before. The Team Commander tugged twice on the rope securing the victim, signal to the men above to start pulling. The entire team heaved the rope. Nothing happened.

Puzzled, both the team inside and those waiting at the lip of the crevasse, moved the rope to check if it was snagged somewhere. It wasn’t. The Team Commander repeated his signal and added a shout. ‘Pull harder’, he said as he grasped the rope in his hand.
The men strained with their complete strength, the strain breaking a thin film of sweat on them.
The harness around the victim crunched as it crushed the powdery snow and bunched around his body. But the man did not budge an inch. The Team Commander first felt it in his hand. It was then that the true horror of the predicament struck. First to the Team commander, then to the team members and finally to the victim.

Upto this time the victim had been surprisingly calm. Arrival of the rescue team and the reassurances he got, had given him hope. That was the drill. Always give hope. It is an inborn survival instinct. Hope. But now he realized that something was dreadfully wrong. From the time of his fall he had been told and instinctively known, not to move. He felt like an insect that had fallen in a spider’s web. Keep still, don’t move. Don’t cause any tremors that may break the
fragile grip of the walls and plunge you down, they told him. Only the grip wasn’t fragile. It was awesomely powerful. There were of course several explanations of what had happened. The victim’s body had been in close contact with the icy walls of the crevasse. His body heat caused a thin film of ice on the wall to melt probably for a fraction of second and them immediately re-freeze. Clutching him there like an ice tray stuck to the floor of the freezer. And of course, the Glacier moves all the time. So perhaps from the time he fell in, it had been twisting murderously clenching him in a death grip. Who knows? But at that moment inside that crevasse, the commander knew one thing for certain. That the combined strength of nine men could not pull the victim up.


He tugged his own rope twice urgently. He needed to talk to base. They would know what to do. They always knew. He was alarmed. This was like nothing that he had faced before. In his panic he even forgot what his sudden departure would signal to the victim. That would come later. Right now he had to find a way to get him out. The men above noticed the repetitive jerking of the rope. They let go of the one they were holding and hauled the Team Commander out. He snatched the handset from the operator and spoke.
‘He’s stuck. We can’t pull him out.’
The control room at the base camp was galvanized by the latest transmission. The Base Commander was not sure he heard this correctly.
‘Mike One, come again’ he said.
‘He’s stuck, Damn it. He is frozen there like an ice cube. We tried pulling him, he is not budging.’
If the circumstances had been otherwise the Base Commander would have felt small sense of satisfaction. The rescue team was asking for his guidance. Only he did not have any to give.
‘You need more men up?’ he asked.
‘No use. The rope is stretching’ came the dismal reply.

The purport of this statement struck all men in the control room. The rope used in the glacier, if it had a mind of its own, would probably be offended by the generalized nomenclature it is referred to. This is a specially constructed piece of equipment.
Designed using a complex combination of fibers, its slender proportions belie the fact, that it is one of the strongest materials created by man, And yet when the heft on it exceeds a limit it begins to stretch, seeming to admit that the strain on it was beyond what it creators envisaged it would ever be used for.

The control room was perplexed. The unquestioning faith of the Team Commander on the ability of the control room to find a solution to his problem was painfully evident. The control room had to respond.

‘You got scooters there? Use them.’ Said the Base Commander, referring to the snow scooters he knew to be in location.
‘What the hell are you doing?’ it was the doctor. ‘If he’s pulled by the scooter it will break his
bones.’
‘You have a better idea?’ asked the Base Commander. The doctor looked away.

Up above the Team Commander chided himself for not thinking about it. He gave instructions for the snow scooter to be positioned. They hooked the rope to the snow scooter. The driver glanced at the Team Commander. Seeing him nod he gave the machine its full throttle. The rope bit into the lip of the crevasse digging in a furrow and stretching. Without orders the men seized the taunt rope and stated pulling at it. It was no use of course, but then in these moments of madness, logic doesn’t work.

The victim did not move.
‘Nothing, no movement’ The Team Commander apprised the control room.
‘Try again’ came the reply from the control room. What else could they say ?.
‘It’s time’ the pilot spoke in the control room.
The control room was jerked back to another cruel reality. The wind was already playing up. The choppers had to go in immediately to get the rescue team back. It was an irony. They all knew that too. The rescue team for all their skills could not be left stranded up there. It was simply a question of human anatomy. They were stationed in the base camp. Centrally located. To be able to respond to any sector of the glacier. Unfortunately that also meant that they were totally un-acclimatized for the higher altitudes. For them to remain at high altitudes beyond what was absolutely essential was to court disaster. And if the chopper did not go fetch them back now, they would have to be left through the night. Unacceptable risk.

The Base Commander looked at the clock on the wall.
‘Ten minutes?’ he asked the pilot.
‘No more’
The Base commander turned towards the radio.
‘Mike One, you’ve got about twenty minutes before first lift comes. Do your best.’

Up above, the Team Commander looked incredulously at his own watch. Twenty minutes damn, what could they do in that much time. The situation inside the crevasse was turning nasty. The victim had begun to understand that there was something drastically wrong. That he might not be rescued after all. He began to panic all over again. In a desperate voice then commander instructed the team.
‘We all go in’
The Team Commander and his partner pitched in two fresh ropes using the same anchor and slithered down. They carried their ice axes, and started to hack at the edge of the ice wall. It was useless. The close confines of the crevasses prevented the full swing of the axe. The walls were so hardened that the picks just bounced off them, hardly making a scratch. As they swung ferociously, one of the picks slipped and dug into the victim’s arms. The miserable man cried out as this fresh pain flailed him. Finally realization struck them all. There was no way this man could be pried free from the crevasse.


They could now begin to hear the faint thump of the approaching choppers. Time was up. The Team Commander motioned to his men to start moving up. Very reluctantly they tugged their anchor ropes and started being pulled up. The victim had broken down completely. He was sobbing uncontrollably. Pleading not be left there. The Team Commander fought back to control his own tears. There was nothing, absolutely nothing that he could do. He heard the first sortie land and moments later, take off. They had another twenty minutes or so before the choppers came back for him.

‘Don’t leave me Sahib’ implored the victim.
The Team Commander couldn’t take it any more. All his training, his skills had never prepared him for a situation where he would have to watch helplessly as a man died painfully, slowly, being able to do nothing about it. There were no words to say, no hope, no consolation to offer. Somehow the victim seemed to find a new strength. Perhaps he finally got the courage to accept his fate.
His speech was much steadier when he spoke again.

‘My family, Sahib, I have three small children. And my parents, they are old.’
‘They will be looked after, don’t worry’ replied the Team Commander.
‘They should not know that I died like this.’
‘No they won’t. They will be told that you died immediately on falling.’
‘Tell them. Tell them that…’
‘Yes. What do you want us to tell them?’
‘Tell them that I am sorry. You know, for leaving them like this.’ Fresh tears started streaming
down his eyes.
‘Don’t be. They will be looked after.’ The team commander found his own voice choking.
It was uncanny, talking so matter of factly to a man who was about to be left to his death.
Like an unbelievable nightmare. It could not be happening, and yet it was.
‘How much longer?’ asked the victim.
At first the Team Commander misunderstood. He started to say that the choppers should be
coming back any time now, but then he realized what he was being asked.
‘No long’ he lied.
‘It’s not painful, I cannot feel anything’
‘Yes and soon you feel drowsy and that will be it.’
‘I am frightened Sahib’.
‘Think of god’ the Team Commanded touched his arm. ‘And don’t worry about anything.’ His
words sounding empty.
‘Can you.. can you stay till I go Sahib?’ he asked hesitatingly.

As if to answer his question the feeble drone of the choppers filtered down the crevasse. They were back for him. Suddenly the crevasse seemed a lonely and a terrible place to leave a man to wait for a lingering death. The Team Commander freed one of his hands and gripped his anchor rope. His other hand held the palm of the victim. To tell what was passing through his mind is not something that words can accomplish.

‘I have to go’ he muttered shamefully.
The victim did not let go of his hand. The Team Commander jerked his rope twice.
And then the screaming began. The victim’s shrieks of terror followed the Team Commander all
the way to the top. He felt he could hear them even above the din of the rotors. As he pulled out
of the crevasse he could feel that the winds had picked up speed. He saw the pilot motioning at
him urgently, to board the chopper. His partner was already beginning to pull out the
equipment.
The team commander stood motionless at the lip of the crevasse. Time seemed to stop for him.
The downwash of the choppers threw snow and debris all around. He could see the pilots
motioning for him to hurry. But he heard nothing. Nothing, except the screams of the man inside
the crevasse.
‘Wait ‘ he said abruptly to his mate. ‘I’m going down for a minute.’
‘But Sahib, there is no time’ argued his partner. ‘Even if you have left something it is not worth
going back.’
The team commander did not reply. Instead he started to slide down the crevasse again. His
partner seemed to read his mind and reached out to hold him.
‘Don’t do it Sahib’ he implored. ‘It’s not correct.’
‘There is nothing else I can do for him’ the Team Commander jerked his arm free and started
down.
‘I am coming with you Sahib’
‘NO’ he shouted. ‘ I will do this myself.’
‘What’s he doing?’ Hundred paces away, the one of the puzzled pilots asked his co-pilot
worriedly.
The gusts were already jostling the helicopter on their skids. The pilot was fighting hard to keep
the chopper under control.
‘Victor one to base, what the hell is this chap upto? We can’t hang around here any longer’ the
pilot radioed the base camp.
" I have no idea’ came back the voice of the Base Commander. ‘He knows he has to pull out of
there.

After what seemed an eternity the Team Commander came out of the crevasse. His partner
pulled him out and they began running towards the waiting choppers. Fifteen minutes later they were back in the base camp. As per the norm the entire team and the air crew moved to the control room for debriefing. The Team Commander was not amongst them. Every body thought that it was because he was disturbed. None mentioned his absence. That evening he was at the bar, well on to a drunken stupor when the Base Commander joined him.
‘Finally it’s always the bar’ he said to the younger man. ‘Whether we get the man out or not.’
The Team Commander did not move.
‘It is a part of the game.’ Continued the Base Commander. ‘Sometimes we win, other times the
glacier. No reason to feel too bad.’
The Team Commander turned slowly to face him.
‘It’s not that’ he said. ‘That’s not why I am sad’.
And as they looked at each other, the Base Commander understood.
For a long moment they did not speak. Finally the Base Commander broke the silence.
‘If that’s what you did, it was brave.’
‘I don’t feel very proud.’
‘Nevertheless it was courageous. Not many would have thought about it, and fewer could have
done it.’
The Team Commander did not reply.
‘How?’ asked the Base Commander.
The team commander took a long breath and turned away before answering.
‘I used a rope’
‘Did he…?’
‘No. He knew it was the best way out.’
The Base Commander heaved a sigh and began walking away.
‘There are two more things’ said the team commander.
‘What?.’
‘His family has to be told’.
"Obviously, someone will be going to do that, might have already done so, you know’.
‘No. You have to do it’
‘Why?, I mean why me.’
‘Because’
‘Alright, and the other thing?’
‘I want a transfer. I can’t do this job any longer’.
‘Sorry about the second part. No way. You can’t apportion problems without accepting to handle
some yourself’. The Base Commander did not wait for a reply as he left the bar.

The cigarette burned my finger and I was jerked back to reality. I mean what I was hearing so far was a fantasy wasn’t it ? I looked at my watch. It was very late. The old man had almost finished.

‘So you see I am coming back from a funeral, figuratively. Because the body is up there inside a
crevasse and will be there, from here to eternity.’
‘You are…’ I began.
‘Yes. I am the Base Commander at the base camp.’
We finished our drinks, rose and left for our rooms. Of course I did not believe a word of what he said.
Things just don’t happen that way do they ?
The author was posted in the Siachen Glacier for a year. He wrote several stories of his experiences in the Glacier. This one was published in 1995 in the Infantry Journal.

captraman@yahoo.com

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby sudeepj » 06 Feb 2016 08:35

Our soldiers and young officers are second to none, but the state of technology and processes we use are not cutting edge. This is apparent all around us. Harebrained ideas can get on peoples nerves, especially at a time like this. But pointing out specific best practices/technology should be kosher and must be done, especially when the issue is 'hot' and has mind share.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby tsarkar » 06 Feb 2016 10:37

ramana wrote:All you can do is active avalanche control by breaking it up early or siting relocation which is not feasible here. Don't know if Himalayan Mountaineering Institute (HMI) has avalanche control practices as SOP.

DRDO's Snow & Avalanche Study Establishment (SASE) has done excellent work that also played a role in reducing casualties at Siachen.

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs/SASE/E ... mebody.jsp

Areas of Work
Operational Avalanche Prediction
Design of Strategic Avalanche Control Structures
Computational Snow Material Sciencel
Snowcover Information System and Mountain Hazard Mapping using Remote Sensing
•Instrumentation & Sensors for Snow-Avalanche Research.
•Snow Climate Research and Mountain Meteorology
•Snow Geo-Intelligence using Unmanned Air borne Systems
•Cold Region Data Bank
•Advise to users on Road Alignments and Avalanche Control Measures, and Safe camping sites.
•Training on Avalanche Safety and Rescue
•Study of Snow Climate and its effect on Mobility of Troops.
•Avalanche Dynamics Study
•Slope Stabilization & Afforesration.
•Research on Glacier Dynamics to study Crevasse Formation and Glacier Related Hazards.
•Snow Harvesting
•Artificial Triggering of Avalanches
•Climate Change
•Mountain Weather Forecast

Avalanche Control Structure Image

sudeepj wrote:but the state of technology and processes we use are not cutting edge. This is apparent all around us. But pointing out specific best practices/technology should be kosher and must be done, especially when the issue is 'hot' and has mind share.

Unfortunately, Sudeep, because our forces & scientists don't do publicity, they have to suffer from epithets used by you

Following is the infrastructure & equipment for R&D at SASE
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs/SASE/E ... cility.jsp

Let me speak from personal experience. When 9/11 happened and US intervened at Afghanistan, their troops suffered terribly. In the Battle of Takur Gar, the reinforcements heli-lifted from base were not acclimatized and were just not able to perform despite their TFTA status

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Takur_Ghar
Razor 02 inserted the other half of the QRF with its force of 10 Rangers at an “offset” landing zone, down the mountain some 800 meters (2,600 ft) east and over 610 meters (2,000 ft) below the mountaintop. The Rangers’ movement up the hill was a physically demanding 2-hour effort under heavy mortar fire and in thin mountain air. They climbed the 45-70 degree slope, most of it covered in a meter (3 ft) of snow, weighted down by their weapons, body armor and equipment. By 1030 am local time, the men arrived completely exhausted, with the enemy at the top of the hill a mere 50 meters (160 ft) from their position.

Compare the 45-70 degree slope with the slopes Bana Singh & the JAKLI team had to climb or our men routinely climb. Compare with the slopes our men had to climb at Kargil.

The helicopter pilots could not control their choppers in hot & high conditions. Check the list of accidental crashes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... fghanistan

During that time, the US Military sent dozens of their officers to study how Indian helicopter pilots performed under similar conditions. They were desperate to learn SOPs from Indian Army officers. The US Officer at DSSC during my time spent all his time enquiring and lapping up the experience of Indian Army Officers who had served at Siachen.
Last edited by tsarkar on 06 Feb 2016 11:59, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby tsarkar » 06 Feb 2016 11:05

sudeepj wrote:This was likely a slab that had been stable for hundreds of years, till one day, perhaps because of climactic changes, it slipped. Its also difficult to predict these in advance because of the featureless nature of Siachen. Usually, fallen trees etc can give an indication that there have been large avalanches in the past on a particular slope and that site may be avoided.
You are right, its impossible to tell where ice ends and rocks start, and the ice slab might have been stable for years. Siachen is much above the treeline

sudeepj wrote:I think many posts siting will need to be reevaluated. Now that the fighting has stopped, this may be feasible.
Sonam is a helipad for supply of posts on the ridgeline. Unless a relatively flat outcrop is found on top of the mountain/ridge, helipads needs to be sited at lower slopes of the mountain/ridge where the terrain flattens out. That exposes it to avalanches from higher slopes.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby tsarkar » 06 Feb 2016 11:45

vasu raya wrote:if the trapped soldiers had noise emitters

All soldiers in Siachen have Avalanche Beacons. If you watched the National Geographic (or was it Discovery?) program on Siachen on 26th January, they referred to it. More here http://www.shaileshkumar.in/2016/02/hop ... eacon.html

vasu raya wrote:navigate towards there

A torpedo controls its movement (pitch, yaw, roll) using hydroplanes in water. How would it control itself in ice?

vasu raya wrote:similar to bathymetric data you have topographic data to avoid rocky terrain underneath
Most of the seas, and mountains are uncharted. It would be a humongous exercise to chart the rocks under the snow.

In addition, it would be a futile exercise. Anyone with a basic understanding of geology knows that earth is a living planet. There are tectonic plates always shifting and altering landscapes. Minor earthquakes are happening all over earth, including Himalayas. Siachen is a populated part of Himalayas. In the unpopulated part of Himalayas, such avalanches are happening even now.

Similarly, Survey Vessels map all our harbours & shipping channels after monsoons every year. Why? Because the drainage deposits sediments & silts. Thereafter dredging is carried out.

Such data, even if collected over time, becomes redundant over time. The Indian Navy Hydrography Branch is working full time on this for major areas. Its impossible to do the rest of the oceans.

http://www.hydrobharat.nic.in/views/index.php
The Indian Naval Hydrographic Department (INHD) functions under the Chief Hydrographer to the Government of India. The Department, being the nodal agency for Hydrographic surveys and Nautical charting in India, has a very well established organizational setup. INHD has eight indigenously built modern survey ships including one Catamaran Hull Survey Vessel (CHSV) fitted with state-of-the-art surveying equipment and a well established 'National Institute of Hydrography' which is recognized as the Centre for Imparting training in Hydrography' for South East Asia by IHO.

Surveys are conducted in strict compliance with the 'IHO standards for Hydrographic surveying (S-44)'. The department also pioneered in making official Electronic Navigational Charts (ENCs) for Indian waters. INHD is committed to capacity building in the South East Asian Region and conducts training to personnel from countries in the region and some of the African nations. The department has also signed MoU with various countries for surveying their waters as part of international cooperation.

http://www.hydrobharat.nic.in/views/Golden_new.php
Rear Admiral Vinay Badhwar NM, Chief Hydrographer to the Govt. of India

Rear Admiral Vinay Badhwar, born in 1961, joined the National Defence Academy in Jul 1978. He was commissioned in the Indian Navy on 01 Jul 1982. After completing his watch-keeping onboard a Destroyer, he was appointed as Navigating Officer of a Patrol Boat. From there he opted for the Hydrographic Branch and after completion of Basic Hydrographic Course at the National Institute of Hydrography, Goa, joined INS Darshak followed by INS Mesh, both survey ships. He qualified as a Ship’s Diver during his tenure onboard INS Mesh. After gaining field experience onboard these ships, he was deputed to Gulfport, USA, for the HYCOOP programme. This was followed by specialization in Hydrography in 1987

After specialisation, he has held various appointments onboard survey ships including as Executive Officer of INS Sutlej followed by a tenure at National Institute of Hydrography, Goa as an instructor. He has commanded three ships, namely, Jamuna, Investigator and Sarvekshak and also held various staff appointments in the Hydrographic Department and Naval Headquarters. During the intermittent period, he has undergone the courses at Defence Services Staff College, Wellington and at Naval War College, Mumbai. He has been a member of the IHO Capacity Building Sub Committee since it’s inception and has been the contact point for INT Chart Coordinator (India) of North Indian Ocean Hydrographic Commission. He has through the 31 years of surveying, gained vast field experience. This includes surveying in the challenging environments of Gulf of Kutch and Khambhat, Andaman and Nicobar Islands. As a Commanding Officer he has also undertaken surveys in foreign countries. He has an in-depth knowledge on hydrography and digital cartography, including various aspects of international charting.
Last edited by tsarkar on 06 Feb 2016 11:58, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 06 Feb 2016 11:46

>>During that time, the US Military sent dozens of their officers to study how Indian helicopter pilots performed under similar conditions. They were desperate to learn SOPs from Indian Army officers. The US Officer at DSSC during my time spent all his time enquiring and lapping up the experience of Indian Army Officers who had served at Siachen.

That is something the US just does very well. They take the knowledge gathered by others, soak it up and then begin owning it.

I wish and hope we have the funding to do so as well, and routinely send enough folks on detachments to multiple forces across the world and soak up the knowledge in turn. We do have exchange programs from time to time, but I hope we expand it beyond the usual US-UK groups and expand it to other forces in Europe and Latin America.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 06 Feb 2016 13:35

sudeepj wrote:Our soldiers and young officers are second to none, but the state of technology and processes we use are not cutting edge. This is apparent all around us. Harebrained ideas can get on peoples nerves, especially at a time like this. But pointing out specific best practices/technology should be kosher and must be done, especially when the issue is 'hot' and has mind share.


In terms of Night Vision, arty, drones, assault rifles, shoes, BPJ for the normal infantry man yes we have deficiencies but not in Siachen. There is nothing that can be done against nature sometimes. Specific best practices ? I haven't seen ONE sensible suggestion here.

TSarkar sir, thanks for posting the SASE work. One had heard a little about it but did not know how comprehensive it is.

Not only Siachen, US and other officers come to CIJWS and HAWS also and lap it up because they know that operationally we are the best.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Lalmohan » 06 Feb 2016 14:24

further point on mountains - they are a dangerous and hostile environment, whichever way you look at it. even in highly managed ski resorts there are routine casualties from avalanches, collisions, falling off cliffs, getting caught out in storms. i ski regularly and whilst I am comfortable when on the managed areas, the few times i have slipped off a drag lift or fallen off a ledge into unmanaged mountain - i can assure you that i was scared at the prospect of having to get myself out of a very hostile place onto somewhere safe. even if it is 50m away. if i have to look after someone else i would be even more scared - but perhaps more determined to solve the problem. wading through deep snow, climbing up steep slopes, big rocks whilst lugging equipment (skis in my case) - trust me - it is scary.

amongst mountaineers and extreme skiers - the casualty rate is very very high. every year, a good %age are taken by the mountain - one way or the other and many are left with severe injuries.

now, the soldiers up in the mountains, do this every day and always in unmanaged areas. you can only admire their courage. yes science can help, but it cannot solve every problem.

take the schumacher example - he was wearing all the right protective gear, and his fall and collision were not particularly spectacular - yet this experienced, fit, strong, determined man continues to be in a coma. the dutch crown prince got totalled by an avalanche despite being found very quickly.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby sudeepj » 06 Feb 2016 20:01

tsarkar wrote:
sudeepj wrote:but the state of technology and processes we use are not cutting edge. This is apparent all around us. But pointing out specific best practices/technology should be kosher and must be done, especially when the issue is 'hot' and has mind share.

Unfortunately, Sudeep, because our forces & scientists don't do publicity, they have to suffer from epithets used by you


Sir, I have not used a single epithet. Are you sure you are replying to my comment? I am sure that DRDO research in this area has been very helpful and I am also certain about the valor of our soldiers and young officers. Lets leave it there because people get unnecessarily defensive and annoyed if anything more is said.

tsarkar wrote:Let me speak from personal experience. When 9/11 happened and US intervened at Afghanistan, their troops suffered terribly. In the Battle of Takur Gar, the reinforcements heli-lifted from base were not acclimatized and were just not able to perform despite their TFTA status


Yes, they need to learn from our experience and we from theirs. No single organization or individual can be the repository of all the expertise and wisdom.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby sudeepj » 06 Feb 2016 20:06

Karan M wrote:>>During that time, the US Military sent dozens of their officers to study how Indian helicopter pilots performed under similar conditions. They were desperate to learn SOPs from Indian Army officers. The US Officer at DSSC during my time spent all his time enquiring and lapping up the experience of Indian Army Officers who had served at Siachen.

That is something the US just does very well. They take the knowledge gathered by others, soak it up and then begin owning it.

I wish and hope we have the funding to do so as well, and routinely send enough folks on detachments to multiple forces across the world and soak up the knowledge in turn. We do have exchange programs from time to time, but I hope we expand it beyond the usual US-UK groups and expand it to other forces in Europe and Latin America.


This is exactly my point. Technology is advancing really fast and is sometimes driven not by army needs, but the 'extreme sports' civil markets.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Prem » 08 Feb 2016 03:16

http://www.dnaindia.com/lifestyle/repor ... -i-2174753
Sipahi chronicles: Tales of Indian soldiers who fought in World War I

Gabar Singh Negi was 22 when he died, thousands of miles from his home in remote Garhwal village, in a fierce battle that took place in a small village in France called Neuve Chapelle, not far from the German border. It was early on the morning of March 10, 1915 — just over a hundred years ago — and Negi, a soldier in the 39 Garhwal Rifles, had bayonetted and killed several enemy soldiers before the shells raining down all around got him.His body was never recovered, but Negi was given a posthumous Victoria Cross, the British Empire's highest military award. Back home in his village, his 14-year-old wife Satoori — they'd been married only a year — was shattered. She didn't remarry.
"Satoori wore the Victoria Cross pinned on her sari all her life. She would wear it even when she went to fetch firewood and all the villagers would stand up to salute her. Satoori died in 1981. I have a photograph of her in the book — a wrinkly old lady standing and taking the salute. H
er story was so moving," says Shrabani Basu, whose recent book, For King and Another Country, looks at World War I (WWI) and the role of India and the Indian army in it, through stories of soldiers like Negi, who left home and country and crossed the dreaded kaalapani to fight in a war that was not their own and knew little of.
Over a million Indians — soliders, and support staff such as doctors, porters, cooks, and so on — fought in Europe, the Middle East and other fronts between 1914 and 1918. Of these, more than 70,000 died or went missing; tens of thousands more were wounded and yet more affected in life-changing ways. Indian soldiers (which then included Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nepal) played decisive roles in several battles, and their gallantry was commended with 92,000 gallantry awards, 11 of them Victoria Crosses. And yet for a long time afterwards, they remained forgotten even by their own compatriots. Even today, descriptions of the Great War in school history curricula remain Euro-centric. Which is what makes recent books on the subject part of all that's happening around the world to mark the centenary of the war, so welcome.These letters constitute the "primary" source material that Basu and all other recent writers have mined to build the WWI story. Ironically, the only reason they have survived and can be accessed today is that the British censored them for anything "seditious" or damaging to morale back home. Even so, they constitute an "authentic" voice and are touching testimonies to the feelings of adventure and wonder, confusion and strangeness, fear and loneliness, frustration and anger, horror and resignation that foot soldiers like Negi must have felt. Here's what storekeeper DN Sircar writes from Brighton on November 12, 1915: "The girls of this place are notorious and very fond of accosting Indians and fooling with them. They are ever ready for any purpose." Another, Dafadar Ali Khan, writes from Egypt, of a Gurkha soldier who began firing indiscriminately. "I spotted him again close at hand and he fired and the bullet passed through my pagri, just missing my head. Great is god's grace! I fired again and dropped him wounded."

One surprising sentiment that most of the letters profess, and that Omissi, Basu and the others comment on is loyalty for the king. "Show your loyalty to the Government and to King George V," writes a Jemadar in January 1915 (sic). "It is every man's duty to fulfill his obligations towards God, by rendering the dues of loyalty to his King."Should these statements be taken seriously? Gajendra Singh, in The Testimonies of Indian Soldiers And The Two World Wars: Between Self And Sepoy does a fine, scholarly job of reading between the lines. His conclusion, that "the sipahis' voice was conditioned and curtailed by the manner in which it was recorded", is a necessary corrective to any contemporary effort to re-read the letters at face value.Santanu Das's 1914-1918: Indians On The Western Front, which presents a photographic record of Indians in France, does something similar — complicating the narrative with the many discordant cues that pictures of the time throw up. You see soldiers huddled up against the cold — winter clothing was in short supply long into the war, and many made do with curtains and tablecloths. Another picture shows sepoys relaxing on the picturesque grounds of Brighton hospital; just beyond is a high fence which kept them from going out.
If the narratives in these books can be faulted in any way, it is for focusing too much attention on the European Front. Vedica Kant's If I Die Here, Who Will Remember Me? India and the First World War — none of them look at the role of the Indian army in the Middle East, where the largest expedition of soldiers was deployed, and Gallipoli, where the maximum casualties were recorded

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 08 Feb 2016 18:20

Siachen, where the rescue/recovery effort is on. Just look at the conditions..
Image

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Prem Kumar » 08 Feb 2016 21:49

Karan M wrote:That is something the US just does very well. They take the knowledge gathered by others, soak it up and then begin owning it.


Case in point: Yoga

The US is indeed very good at this - full points to them. All great powers soaked up good knowledge from others (USA & Russia from the Germans, now China from the West). India should do the same. No point reinventing everything

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Baikul » 08 Feb 2016 23:28

Jhujar wrote:http://www.dnaindia.com/lifestyle/report-sipahi-chronicles-tales-of-indian-soldiers-who-fought-in-world-war-i-2174753
Sipahi chronicles: Tales of Indian soldiers who fought in World War I

Gabar Singh Negi was 22 when he died, thousands of miles from his home in remote Garhwal village, in a fierce battle that took place in a small village in France called Neuve Chapelle.......... Negi, a soldier in the 39 Garhwal Rifles, had bayonetted and killed several enemy soldiers before the shells raining down all around got him.His body was never recovered, but Negi was given a posthumous Victoria Cross, ............ [b]Back home in his village, his 14-year-old wife Satoori — they'd been married only a year — was shattered. She didn't remarry.............


Gabar Singh remains a legend there to this day and I remember in the 1990s listening to stories and songs about him in a village that took a day of hard walking to get to.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby ramana » 08 Feb 2016 23:50

Shiv Aroor tweets:
Lance Naik Hanumanthappa found alive in the avalanche at Siachen. He is in critical condition.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby arshyam » 09 Feb 2016 00:14

Yes, fingers crossed. Hope he pulls through.

TimesNow quoting the Northern Army commander, so it is official.

Image
Source: https://twitter.com/TimesNow/status/696776882927177728

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Baikul » 09 Feb 2016 00:16

Prayers.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Pranay » 09 Feb 2016 01:27

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/soldier- ... eststories


After 6 Days, Soldier Caught In Siachen Avalanche Found Alive: Army Commander
All India | Edited by Anindita Sanyal (with inputs from PTI) | Updated: February 09, 2016 02:10 IST


SRINAGAR: An army jawan who was buried under snow following an avalanche in the Siachen glacier has been found alive, news agency Press Trust of India has reported. For six days, Lance Naik Hanamanthappa was buried under 25 feet of snow in temperatures that hovered above minus 40 degrees Celsius.

On February 3, Lance Naik Hanamanthappa was caught in the avalanche along with nine soldiers. Rescue efforts had been on since, though on February 4, the army said hopes of finding anyone alive were "very remote".

"It was a miraculous rescue, all efforts are being made to evacuate Lance Naik Hanamanthappa to the RR Hospital (Army's Research and Referral hospital) in the morning," PTI quoted Lieutenant General Northern Army Commander DS Hooda as saying.

"Five bodies have been recovered so far and four bodies have been identified. All other soldiers are regrettably no more with us," he reportedly said.

He expressed hope that the miracle continues with Mr Hanamanthappa, who is from Karnataka.

Army teams have been sifting through the huge mass of ice in the treacherous region, sometimes digging more than 30 feet to find the soldiers who are buried. (Photo: Siachen Glacier)

Last week, a Junior Commissioned Officer and nine other ranks of Madras Regiment were buried after a wall of ice -- a kilometre wide and 600 metres high -- came crashing down on their post.

The base was located on the Saltoro ridge in Siachen, at a height of 19,600 feet above the sea level and close to the Line of Control (LoC) with Pakistan.

Since then, rescuers with dogs have been cutting through massive chunks of ice in temperatures between minus 42 and minus 25 degrees Celsius. Besides the freezing temperature and the rarified air, the rescue teams also had to battle frequent blizzards and work through low visibility.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby nits » 11 Feb 2016 12:36

RIP: Siachen braveheart Lance Naik Hanamanthappa Koppad dies

Four days after he was rescued from the ice in what was being described nothing short of a miracle, Lance Naik Hanamanthappa passed away at the Army’s R&RHospital in New Delhi at 11.45 am.

The only survivor in the Siachen avalanche that killed nine of his colleague, Hanamanthappa slipped into deeper coma on Thursday morning.

Hanamanthappa was on maximal life support. His kidneys were non-functional and he had been put on dialysis. His pneumonia also worsened and there were indications that the blood clot disorder had reversed.


RIP to Brave Soul...

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 12 Feb 2016 16:40

IMHO, they should begin with the low hanging fruit, injured soldiers who need rehab versus such an ambitious target which will not easily work out.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india/arm ... eGltN.html

As part of the experiment, the specialists will be assigned to terminally-ill patients and those with some form of cancer. General Chopra said, “We don’t have much to offer to such patients and perhaps some other treatment could work for them. Alternative medicine systems shouldn’t be written off as they have evolved over centuries.”

The scope of the project could be expanded if alternative medicine treatment proves to be effective. This would give alternative medicine practitioners a bigger platform for research and could help address some myths about the systems they practice, Chopra said. “These traditional medicine practitioners will work under the supervision of army doctors to provide the best medical care to patients. Patients will benefit if we can find scientific evidence that suggests alternative medicine can cure or curtail diseases,” he added.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby manjgu » 12 Feb 2016 17:52

I was in Nayoma in end of october 2015 and preparing to go back to Leh. While reversing the Sumo we hit the the pillar of a residents gate ( pillar is made of cement/concrete to which the iron gate is attached). he came out and there was a little fight and we offered to rebuild it. and he laughed at us. He told us that it cant be rebuilt till summers come as cement does not set in Ladhaki winters ( and mind u there was no snow or anything). we used to have bright sun during day though it was bitingly cold. So its not easy to build something in a place where there is permanent snow, very cold temperatures and altitude. building itself is an issue and we are not even talking of bringing in quantities of cement, iron, water etc. to such altitudes. And even handling such stuff will be one hell of an issue. as someone said..if it was a possibility it would have been done by now.....

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby SaiK » 12 Feb 2016 19:03

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 953480.cms
Image

easily, a solid reason-set to take up some deep thoughts and do some extreme engineering infra there.

is DRDO sleeping?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 12 Feb 2016 20:38

SaiK wrote:is DRDO sleeping?

Why do you ask?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Sanju » 12 Feb 2016 21:11

Bought tears to my eyes reading about the CO of 19 Madras.

New Delhi, Feb. 11: Faith is a Madrasi Gorkha.

In the collective shock of a country at the death, life and death of Lance Naik Hanamanthappa Koppad, one man stands tall: his commanding officer, Col Um Bahadur Gurung of the Indian Army's 19 Madras battalion.

Gurung kept hope alive and supervised the rescue and search at the post in Sonam after the wall of ice came down on his men on February 3. It was his faith that led the rescuers to Hanamanthappa and the others.


Col. Gurung told his men that nobody was to leave but that they should work in short bursts to both keep their bodies warm and continue the search. He called the base commander, at 10,500ft. He was between 19,600 and 20,000ft at all times, even through the nights.


The Madrasi Gorkha

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby vasu raya » 13 Feb 2016 00:58

tsarkar, thanks for the reality check. From various new reports, the survival time was given as anywhere between 2 and 48 hours depending in the trapped situation, between the incident and the time Hanumanthappa was extricated it took 6 days, the requirement still remains that the effort needed to be speeded up and a human intensive approach is not going to cut it.

Of the very many variations of the situations possible, here identifying the probable location was not the challenge, its their extrication by digging through blue ice in other words making a 1 meter wide and 10 meter deep vertical hole in the shortest possible time

Lets say there is suitable drilling equipment that is heli portable, and one can do vertical drilling through blue ice, so, is the Dhruv configured to just be a power source while parked on a helipad nearby?

or tunneling thru softer snow which was the original layer until the tougher blue ice covered it up in the avalanche,
here is the CAIR website
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs/CAIR/E ... oducts.jsp

look at the last picture that looks like a centipede/snake/caterpillar/worm, they had an article about it in the The Hindu few years back, that sort of design might work with the head segment being the drilling end that can change direction while buried inside snow. The torpedo reference was about being completely blind and just relying on the acoustic sensors to locate and navigate independently.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby arshyam » 14 Feb 2016 23:20

2 soldiers, 5 militants killed in J&K encounter - Peerzada Ashiq, The Hindu

Image
Army personnel during an encounter in Kupwara district of North Kashmir on Saturday. - PTI

Two soldiers and five militants were killed in a fierce encounter in the frontier district of Kupwara in north Kashmir on Saturday. Two other soldiers were injured.

A group of militants was trapped in a residential area on the slope in Kupwara’s Messeri village in Chowkibal area, over 90 km from Srinagar, by the security forces late on Friday afternoon. “As the Army commenced the search of a suspect house, it came under heavy fire,” said Srinagar-based defence spokesman Lt. Colonel N.N. Joshi.

The exchange of fire continued till Saturday noon. While four bodies of the militants were recovered from the ground floor of the house, one body was found in the basement.

Two soldiers were also killed in the encounter. They were identified as Naik Shinde Shankar Chandrabhan and Gunner Sahadev Maruti.

“Five AK-47 rifles, besides a huge quantity of ammunition and other war-like stores, have been recovered from the site,” said the spokesman.

RIP two more brave sons of the land.

Time to stop using euphemisms like militants, and call these people what they are: terrorists. Then the JNU types will actually get more 'heroes' to lionize.

Interestingly, The Hindu articles these days sport comments that would not have been allowed earlier. Too few of the desired types of comments flowing in perhaps, and they cannot swim against the tide?

Some samples:
May the souls of India's brave fallen soldiers rest in peace.

For the few JNU faithfuls these terrorists will be heroes I guess. I hope they are absolutely gored.


I for one, am glad that people are paying more attention to our forces, and openly. Enough of the running down of our own people who give their everything to defending us.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Rahul M » 15 Feb 2016 03:35



from radio mirchi.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby wig » 15 Feb 2016 08:52

The Army is not war ready
A generation of officers has grown and won awards, laurels and promotions doing counter-insurgency operations. With all present generals having donned the uniform after the last full-scale war of 1971, war-preparedness has become an elusive concept.
Speaking recently at the Counter-Terrorism Conference in Jaipur, National Security Advisor Ajit Doval, alluding to Pakistan, said, “Some countries have used non-state actors (terrorists) for 15 years to achieve political and strategic objectives, with counter-productive results.” The truth is, far from being counter-productive, the Pakistan army has achieved substantive results against India through this strategy.
On the one hand, it has increased India's policing commitments on the land and coastal borders. The 1999 Kargil conflict forced the Indian Army to deploy a division (12,000 troops) round the year at 15,000 to 18,000 feet to ensure no reccurrence of mischief. After the 26/11 Mumbai attacks, the Indian Navy, made responsible for coastal security, has been flogging its expensive warships, at the cost of war preparedness. On the other hand, Pakistan's strategy has, to its own amazement, rendered the Indian Army unfit for conventional war. After Operation Parakram (the 10-month military stand-off from December 2001 to October 2002), where India failed to militarily coerce Pakistan, the Indian Army was expected to learn the right lessons. Since no insurgency which enjoys an inviolate sanctuary has ever been defeated, it was, since 1990, argued that the Indian Army should build capability to hit terrorists' bases in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir rather than fight the elusive terrorists on its soil.
Instead, it did the opposite. Once the November 26, 2003, ceasefire, at Pakistan's initiative, was accepted, the artillery guns on both sides fell silent. With long-range firepower to hit Pakistani bunkers no longer an option, raids by Special Forces to thwart the proxy war was the natural choice to keep the Pakistan army on tenterhooks. Calling it a war-avoidance measure, this option was closed by the Army Chief, Gen. NC Vij by fencing the Line of Control in July, 2004.
The argument that the fence is cost-effective and prevents infiltration continues to be made by senior officers who are unwilling to concede its biggest drawback: It has instilled the Maginot mentality, (a line of defensive fortifications built before World War II to protect the eastern border of France but easily outflanked by German invaders.).
Any worthwhile military commander the world over will attest that a fortification induces a false sense of security and stifles the offensive spirit and action. Today, the fence denotes the Indian Army's physical, mental and psychological limit of war-fighting. It gives respite to the Pakistan army and encourages it to continue with the proxy war, without fearing Indian retaliation. The initiative has passed completely into the hands of the terrorists and their Pakistani handlers. The latter dictate the rates of engagement, infiltration, areas to be activated and to what purpose, including methods of initiation. This is the reason that even with the strength of over 12 lakh, the Indian Army fails to deter the six lakh Pakistani army from cross-border terrorism. The Pakistan army refuses to hand over Hafiz Saeed, Dawood Ibrahim, Masood Azhar and others to us. Each time our political and military leaders warn Pakistan, it challenges us to a war.
The Indian Army Chief, Gen. VK Singh wrote a letter (leaked to the media) to the Prime Minister in March, 2012, saying the Army was unfit for war. Media reports routinely decry the unpreparedness of the Army. What little the Army has as war reserves, for example, equipment, vehicles, spares and ammunition, is merrily being using to raise more units — two divisions (each with 12,000 troops) between 2009 and 2011, and a Mountain Corps (90,000 troops). Since 2012, the Army's annual defence spending ratio of capital (for acquisitions) and revenue (pay and allowances) has been 40:60, instead of the other way round. This means more manpower costs and less war preparedness.
Unfortunately, the present state suits both the political and the Army leadership; the former does not want to understand military power and is petrified by nuclear weapons, the latter is comfortable with counter-insurgency operations (CI ops). The Army has honed its skills in it for 25 years. About 40 per cent of the Army is in the Jammu and Kashmir theatre doing CI ops, while an equal number prepares itself to replace those. A generation of officers has grown and won awards, laurels, promotions and status doing CI ops. With all present generals having donned uniform after the last full-scale war of 1971, war-preparedness has become an elusive concept.
The irony is that the people of India do not know what the Army is supposed to do. The nation regularly pays homage to soldiers who die fighting terrorists inside the Indian territory rather than fighting Pakistani soldiers on the border. Few bother to think that if the Army does CI ops (which should be the paramilitary's job), who would do its job of fighting the war? Should the nation be spending huge amount of money building a military force when what the Army wishes to be is to become a glorified paramilitary force?
The idea of a fence on the LoC came from the BSF, which had erected one on the India-Pakistan border from Gujarat to Rajasthan and another on the India-Bangladesh border. But the Army was never receptive to the idea of erecting a fence as it was found effective only against illegal immigrants and was considered a police tactic. The Army chief, General S. Padmanabhan (General Vij's predecessor) told me: “When Vij asked my opinion on the fence, I told him that this idea had been there since 1993. The reason why it had not been implemented so far was that it was unsuited for the terrain along the LoC. Moreover, a fence would instil a defensive mindset in our troops.” What should the Army do? The Army Chief, Gen. Bikram Singh invited me to his office in January, 2013, and asked my opinion. I suggested four-pronged action: The fence on the LoC should be dismantled; troops should be reoriented to the conventional war role from the present anti-infiltration role; CI ops should be handed over to the paramilitary and the police in Jammu and Kashmir in a phased manner; and the Army should go back to its core competency — preparing to fight a war.
These are the actions that the Army would take during war; taking them in peacetime would help deter Pakistan from continuous trouble across the LoC. Adopting an offensive-defence posture does not imply war; it means peace and stability on the LoC as it would spur the Army to equip and train itself for war. These actions will also help the Army to reduce its strength by nearly 2,00,000 troops in five years; a must for a professional Army desiring to prepare itself for present-day warfare.
The Modi Government, which projects itself as more muscular than the previous regimes, has not helped matters. Speaking in the Rajya Sabha on July 22, 2014, the then Defence Minister, Arun Jaitley praised the Army for CI ops by concluding that, “innovative troops deployment, efficient use of surveillance and monitoring devices and fencing along the LoC have enhanced (the Army's) ability to detect and intercept infiltration.” Encouraged, the Army decided to upgrade the fence. The northern Army Commander, Lt Gen. D.S. Hooda told the media in August, 2015 that, “The new fence will be twice as effective as the existing one. It will be hard to breach.” The Pakistan army will continue to allow the Indian side to repair the fence damaged by vagaries of nature each year, without resorting to small-arms firings.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/commen ... 96237.html

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Prem » 15 Feb 2016 09:24

wig wrote:The Army is not war ready
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/comment/the-army-is-not-war-ready/196237.html


The author PS with is BS is PNG here on this forum.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby putnanja » 15 Feb 2016 09:34

I think you are confusing Praveen Sawhaney with Praveen Swami

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 15 Feb 2016 16:25

Colonel Anil Kaul (VrC) soldiers on. Led the IA Charge into Jaffna, and now telling some jerks on their face what their so called support for TSP types is.

https://www.facebook.com/IADnews/videos ... 292802792/

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby wig » 16 Feb 2016 09:21

army promotion policy- Command-exit model gets SC endorsement

The Supreme Court today endorsed the government’s command exit policy for promotions in the Army in order to reduce the age profile of commanding officers and achieve optimal combat effectiveness, as suggested by The Ajay Vikram Singh committee in the light of the 1999 Kargil war.
“There is nothing perverse, unreasonable or unfair about the policy that the age of officers serving in combat arms and combat arms support will be lowered by creating additional vacancies to be allotted on command exit model,” a Bench comprising Chief Justice TS Thakur and Justice Kurian Joseph ruled in a 58-page judgment.
The court delivered the verdict on appeals by the Centre challenging the Armed Forces Tribunal’s March 2, 2015, order quashing the government’s January 20, 2009, policy circular.
Citing the lower age profiles of commanding officers in Japan, China and Pakistan, the government had sought to ensure quicker promotions for such officers in combat arms and combat arms support in India by creating additional posts for them. The affected officers in other units had gone to the AFT, challenging the circular.
The SC ruled that all Army officers could not be treated as belonging to a single cadre as in the case of the Indian Administrative Service (IAS) or the Indian Police Service (IPS). While hearing the appeals, the court had framed a question: “Do officers serving in arms and arms support services constitute a single cadre?”
“We have no difficulty in answering the question in the negative and holding that officers in service streams do not constitute a single cadre with those serving in arms and arms support for purposes of allocation of additional vacancies created pursuant to the recommendations made to the government by the AV Singh committee,” the Bench said.
As a result, it refused to accept the contention of the affected officers that the policy had denied them their “legitimate expectation for batch parity”.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 96999.html

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Hitesh » 16 Feb 2016 11:29

Why the fvck is the Supreme Court getting involved in the management of the Army promotion system!!!???? I am fvcking tired of the Supreme Court stepping outside of its bounds. They need to be fvcking reined in ASAP!!!

They are not allowed to step into the executive powers domain!!!!
Last edited by hnair on 18 Feb 2016 08:41, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: This comment was reported. This is an Indian forum and such sort of comments have no place here

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby rkhanna » 16 Feb 2016 12:51

huh? The Supreme court sided with the Government. And the Govt took the matter to the SC itself.


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