PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Feb 2016 13:00

I go back to an old quote from a former UK head of def. procurement, who said that it never failed to amaze him how almost every defence programme he had encountered,fell short of its designed for performance,arrived late and way above budget!

A classic example in India is the LCA programme.Like waiting for Godot,we on BRF have been debating it and waiting for it to enter service from the last century! The underpowered MK-1 was finally and thankfully given the green light ,40 on order. The IAF compromised.Did they not many decades ago obtain the MIG-21 when the US refused to sell us fighters (Starfighters-the "widow maker"),again thankfully ,an aircraft that had some shortcomings but through later avatars and impoved performance became the backbone of the IAF and still flies today in its last/latest avatar as the Bison? haven't the IAF been happy about the half-century long experience? Were not glowing tributes given to the type on its 50th B'day by a galaxy of chiefs,AMs,pilots,etc?

Why is it that the IAF these days seem addicted to wanting the very best at first shot? If it really wants a stealth fighter,the easiest way is to first operate a sqd or two of the basic Pak-FA bird that will enter Ru service,perhaps with some easily accommodated indigenous eqpt.,and just as we did with the SU-30s,operate them for a while and return them (if required) once the definitive version has been fully developed and is in series production. The GOI should crack some sense into IAF heads.The alternative is to spend a massive amount of money and hopefully produce a bird around 2020.Ggoing by our LCA track record it may experience even more delays. As they say, "a bird in the hand is worth a two (-seater) in the bush"

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 05 Feb 2016 15:08

Philip wrote: As they say, "a bird in the hand is worth a two (-seater) in the bush"

The IAF desire for a two seater is baffling. With the developments in sensor fusion and automation, a single pilot can handle almost all functions. The only thing that will be accomplished with a two seater is a nice increase in canopy size leading to easier radar detection.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Feb 2016 15:48

Bharadwaj wrote:
Philip wrote: As they say, "a bird in the hand is worth a two (-seater) in the bush"
The IAF desire for a two seater is baffling. With the developments in sensor fusion and automation, a single pilot can handle almost all functions. The only thing that will be accomplished with a two seater is a nice increase in canopy size leading to easier radar detection.

Flying is stressful irrespective of all the sensor fusion etc , and flying long hours with refueling etc is more stressful and tiring job , Having WSO or Buddy in cockpit to share the workload helps in reducing the flying workload stress.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 05 Feb 2016 16:51

The reports that are appearing regarding IAF wanting to develop a FGFA for USD 4 Billion dollar and then buying only 60 for USD 220 Billion dollar each seem bizarre (if true). Why not simply license manufacture 180 PAKFA @ USD 100 million each rather than spending humongous amount of money on only 60 aircraft then buying them at twice the cost. Rather license manufacture 180 PAKFA for even better 360 Su-30MKI with the same cost and concentrate on developing UCAV and AMCA.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 05 Feb 2016 16:57

maxratul wrote: 4. BY all available information (or lack thereof) the assumption is that the AMCA is still on the drawing board - priority is still getting the LCA right

Correction saar. AMCA work is underway albeit progress is very very slow, at least at NAL.

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 05 Feb 2016 17:22

Zynda wrote:
maxratul wrote: 4. BY all available information (or lack thereof) the assumption is that the AMCA is still on the drawing board - priority is still getting the LCA right
Correction saar. AMCA work is underway albeit progress is very very slow, at least at NAL.

thats good to hear.
I am guessing the work would be under materials/structures domain

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Feb 2016 18:26

amca zynda hai

http://www.nal.res.in/pdf/dir-rep14.pdf

btw, i am concerned at dropping off projects like Kaveri and Hansa. doesn't speak good of our capabilities.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Feb 2016 20:08

The IAF desire for a two seater is baffling. With the developments in sensor fusion and automation, a single pilot can handle almost all functions. The only thing that will be accomplished with a two seater is a nice increase in canopy size leading to easier radar detection.

IIRC the two seater was shot down based on cost and nothing else.

New materials, software, etc have provided the luxury for each user to customize a product like the PAK-FA. I would not compare the PAK-FA to the FGFA to the F-35 to the J-20(?). each is a stand alone product custom build for their user.

With a dynamite network, great sensors, one can overcome a lot of what you have posted - that is the idea, which your opponent is also aware of and is not keeping quiet.

On the AMCA (which I hope no one starts comparing it to anything) is on the move (after the IOC for the LCA) (they HAD shifted some 700 from the LCA to the AMCA - about a year ago) and have requested $2 billion to produce 2 tech demo and some 7 prototypes in 2018-19 time frame. The design has been frozen per reports out there.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Feb 2016 20:22

Philip, Is the IAF hankering for the Canberra two-seater type of attack/strike aircraft?

Gyan, The long years of being non-grata with US is taking its toll. IAF wants the best in the world to make up for all that it could not fly before due to Cold War.
What they don't realize is its still politics.
So make your own $200M aircraft or make the country lose its autonomy so they can fly the best.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Feb 2016 20:36

So make your own $200M aircraft or make the country lose its autonomy so they can fly the best.

My feel is that the AMCA will surprise a LOT of people.

I think THE best thing that EVER happened to India is the LCA. Forget amm janata, even some in the community have still not recognized the contribution the LCA has made to Indian aerospace. Too bad, the LCA is about to bite your butt. And, nothing personal, the AMCA will be far better than the FGFA - smaller, but better or more complete (viewing both from an IAF PoV).

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 05 Feb 2016 23:57

Isn't losing autonomy a no go area for defense, just like crossing border was a no go area during Kargil war. What with Pakis planning to drop a nuke bomb after sending terrorists across the border, while Indians got to have a no go only, as the Americans play peace makers.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Feb 2016 02:53

OK, some recent data points on the FGFA:

Feb 1, 2016 :: Progress Reported on Indian Version of Sukhoi T-50

India and Russia have agreed on a cost reduction for the FGFA (Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft). Negotiations on co-development of an Indian version of the Sukhoi T-50 (Russian acronym PAKFA) had previously stalled, especially concerning the cost of substituting Indian content on the stealth fighter. But according to recent reports in the Russian media, progress was made during the visit to Moscow by Indian Prime Minister Narendra last December, although no announcement was made.

So, we are back to where India had started long back - as many Indian components as possible was one of the goals, which is why India wanted to conduct the preliminary design followed by R&D.

Each of the partners will invest $4 billion over the next seven years, including $2 billion each in the first year and the rest evenly distributed over the six years that follow. The total cost of development is now put at $10 billion, compared with $12 billion previously cited. The balance of $2 billion still required would be recouped from export sales, it is now reported.

So, the bill is still at $5 billion per. The plan is to recover $1 billion via exports. So, the cost has *really* not been reduced.

United Aircraft (UAC) and Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) would be the industrial partners, with HAL having a workshare of at least 25 percent, and Bharat Electronics also playing a significant role. In similar fashion to the licensed production of the Su-30MKI for the Indian air force, the Indian companies will manage the replacement of Russian avionics, including mission and navigation computers; display and management systems; and self-protection systems. The result will be a considerably different aircraft from the PAKFA, and will effectively be the export version.

Expect structural changes too - subtle as they may be.

export "version"? It is Indian designed, for use by India.

The Indian air force is seeking to procure 250 FGFAs. Earlier Indian sources estimated the unit production cost at $100 million, similar to that of the Su-30MKI.

Meanwhile, the acceptance process for the PAKFA has taken one year so far, preceded by five years of flight trials. The Russian air force expects to receive its first aircraft next year, and to have 55 in service by 2020. Initial production aircraft will be powered by a pair of NPO Saturn/UMPO AL-41F1 turbofans (also known as “Item 117”). They will later be replaced by more powerful, reliable and efficient “Item 30” engines now in development by an industrial group supervised by the United Engine Corporation (Russian acronym ODK).

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Feb 2016 02:59

Do not know what to make of this................

Feb 7, 2016 :: FGFA deal by Feb-end & why Rafale is going nowhere fast

Real-life hare and tortoise story. The hare is the French Rafale combat aircraft, the tortoise the slow but steady Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). The tortoise is about breasting the tape — with the deal likely to be signed by this February end, i.e,, within the next few weeks.

While the Rafale flashily and ostensibly made an end-run around the various onerous procedural and substantive requirements attending on the IAF’s MMRCA acquisition process, when Prime Minister Modi, ill-advisedly, tried to give France and its vendor Company, Dassault Avions, an unfair advantage by publicly committing to buying 36 Rafales off the shelf, the sheer unaffordability of this fast-dating aircraft which, this blog and my writings have been pounding on about, has put the brakes on achieving the deal anytime soon. It is stuck at the last mile, so to say.

This is no bad thing to happen considering there’s no money to pay Paris, which wants the money up-front. Because, consider the vast quantum involved. At the time Rafale was shortlisted, I had alerted the readers to the fact that the final bill will be nearer $40-$50 billion for 126 aircraft and, all told (inclusive of the costs to construct the infrastructure, such as air-conditioned hangars, etc. as have been built for the Mirage 2000 squadrons in Gwalior), a unit price of $246 million billion. The Rs 63,000 crores the Modi govt has set aside for 36 Rafales works out to $227 million per aircraft. Except, France will not permit any Indian-designed weapons, such as the BVR Astra air-to-air missile, or the Brahmos cruise missile, to be integrated into the Rafale. But it will integrate American-sourced armaments, which is what IAF favours! Meanwhile, Russia has vetoed arming the French Rafale in Indian inventory with the Brahmos. So the Rafale is checkmated, rendered a pretty useless weapons platform unless the Modi govt approves the untested Brit-French-Italian consortium MBDA-made Meteor, which is yet to be operationalized, or buys US-weapons which will have MTCR-induced constraints on range, etc., at the expense of Indian missiles that will loosen the reliance on imported armaments.

But trust the apparently strategically stupid IAF and a compromised MOD to push the Rafale even if this supposed MMRCA will end up being completely non-lethal and harmless. The only bit of hope is that the original notion entertained by Defmin Parrikar of buying double the number of Su-30MKIs for the same number of Rafales and minus the cost of any new infrastructure, etc., will under the circumstances, begin to gain traction, especially in light of Russia’s earnest and positive attitude to transferring FGFA codes, flight control laws to India.

The final FGFA deal that is expected to be signed and worth $3.7 billion will involve the fly-in into India of three FGFA PAK FA aircraft for IAF to begin flying them and for TAC-D in Gwalior to begin writing the manual for tactics, etc., and the transfer of flight control laws and open[air]-frame design to enable ADA to modify the aircraft architecture to suit Indian requirements and source codes, including for the fire control system.

But where India’s procurement contracts are concerned, there’s always and inevitably a foul-up, the downside. There’s one in the FGFA agreement as well. The wondrously incomprehensible and myopic aspect of this deal is the rejection by IAF-MOD of Moscow’s extraordinarily generous offer to have its Saturn jet engine design bureau (that resulted from the merging of the Lyulka and Tumansky design bureaus) jointly with Indian counterpart (GTRE) develop a powerful new era jet power plant — something no other country will deliver on and, despite promises, certainly not the technology hyper-protective US. But, as reported elsewhere, India will instead buy the Saturn AL-41 engines whole to power the Indian-modified FGFAs! It fits in with IAF-MOD thinking of keeping India forever tied to the apron strings of foreign vendors.

An astute Defmin would have seen through this and imposed a corrected decision on IAF-MOD. Apparently, that hasn’t happened, even though, one suspects, that given Parrikar’s partiality to economical options and his measured assessment of cost and benefit — as regards, say, the Su-30MKI as MMRCA instead of Rafale, he is the one speeding the FGFA project along

Eh?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Feb 2016 07:55

NRao wrote:OK, hopefully my last post, till something new arises.

My thinking is that modi needs the economy to grow, for which he needs FI and for the energy sector reactors. Both France and Russia are more than capable of delivering on the reactor front. But in order to give india reactors, they need India to keep alive some aspects of their economies. Thus the PMO thinking-out-of-the-box and essentially kicking the can to the MoD/FinMin.

IF that is true then it is the best path, provided the economy really grows and provides stability within India.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1976316

I think the French and Russian deals are larger than the deals themselves and are worth it from a national point of view. Keeping Dassault and Sukhoi alive is a small price to pay for India.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Feb 2016 15:36

I don't know what to make of that piece either. Like lemmings heading for destruction the IAF "stars" are showing the same tendencies.Pig-headedness rules their lofty roost.One sincerely hopes that the DM steps back from the Rafale brink.If the Russians have offered us a JV to develop a brand new jet engine,it is an exciting
offer.

member_29294 · Post by **member_29294** » 06 Feb 2016 18:11

^ More presstitute garbage.

Intended engine for FGFA is Type-30, a new clean sheet engine Russia says they will start testing by 2018. And NPO Saturn JV is not needed, as GTRE wants a real JV with a Western company with a proven track-record in reliable engines and support.

Clear misinformation campaign is present here, and it is pretty obvious who is paying just judging by the language.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Feb 2016 19:15

so, when was the Saturn offer made with GTRE?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Feb 2016 23:12

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1976566

In addition to worries about China greeting access to the FGFA R&D, would India have to consider Pakistan in the equation?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Feb 2016 13:13

The Hindu's series of reports quoting official docs,which allege that HAL made aircraft costs a lot more than imported ones,if accurate,will be carried over to any local FGFA manufacture unless there is a drastic shakedown by the MOD of the DPSUs.Our first LCA sqd. hasn't been commissioned as yet.Any local manufacture of an FGFA will happen by this track record post 2025. We seem to be caught between Scylla and Charybdis,the Rafale and FGFA.At this point in time ,neither deal has clarity.The only point in favour of the FGFA is that it has stealth unlike the Rafale. It would be v. interesting to see how much an outright buy of a T-50/FGFA will cost vs a Rafale.But then,the IAF pilots have to fly the bird,something that hasn't happened as yet.

prabhug · Post by **prabhug** » 08 Feb 2016 13:19

Looks like french saying local produce would costly.better buy from us.Definitely HAL has to work in reducing such costs.But both of these articles in Al-hind was discouraging.Not even a single + in such an exercise ?????

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 Feb 2016 14:16

Apparently Russia has a law (do not know how old) that prohibits foreign pilots form test flying Russian planes in Russians air space. Which is why the IAF has not been able to take a look at the PAK-FA - so say the Russians.

On manufacturing, one cannot go over 15 years and not make a dent in lowering the costs, with exceptions. However, I suspect the problem is in the pattern of ordering the MKIs. IF on day one they had decided 300 MKIs I would think the cost would have been substantially lower. The fact they ordered in drips (circumstances granted) did add to the escalation of costs.

What is this new dimension of exporting planes: Hawk? They should perhaps spin off such efforts to the private sector to get their feet wet.

No use making even 80 Rafales in India. I would have preferred that the IAF bought them from the FAF.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 08 Feb 2016 20:29

"Apparently Russia has a law (do not know how old) that prohibits foreign pilots form test flying Russian planes in Russians air space. Which is why the IAF has not been able to take a look at the PAK-FA - so say the Russians."

Actually they invoked a caveat emptor sub clause in that 'law': it says you must buy before you fly. But this is just a rumor.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Feb 2016 21:10

Hey folks please be civil. No need to be rude or coming as a know it all.

Treat others as you like to be treated yourself.

Thanks,
ramana

PS, tired of folks going off handle and others reporting them. So keep it civil.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Feb 2016 12:18

There is no such law.I know the gent who was the first Indian who flew the MIG-25 and if I'm not right AM P.Rajkuma was the first who also flew the MIG-27.Both flew them in Russia.Any such test flying would however be very discreet,if it has already taken place.Why ask for the numerous modifications ?
Anyway,"miles to go before I sleep...."!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Feb 2016 18:46

One among many sources:

Aug, 2014 :: India-Russia jet deal hits turbulence over 'technical worries'

The Russians are not allowing Indian pilots to fly the aircraft, claiming foreign pilots are barred from flying in their airspace.

But India argues that such restrictions were not imposed when the Sukhois or MiG jets were extensively flown in Russia by Indian pilots.

Other sources suggest it is a recent "law" - perhaps just for the PAK-FA. I do not know. But, as can be seen for the date of this article, it has been reported for some time now.

On "numerous modifications": 42 were identified from day one, the recent Shukla article claims it is up to 50 now. From what little is out there none of the mods are detailed, all are rather generic (360 radar, Indian computers, materials for the skin, etc) - exception was the two-seat which was subsequently dropped.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 09 Feb 2016 22:58

I am sure people who criticize PAK-FA will be forefront of what is wrong with all other stealth fighter jets too, including, and not limited to, all the points made by IAF.

About increase in costs, there are parts of Indian make Su-30 MKI that are relevant for ForEx:
* Some parts are made in India, cost will save ForEx and circulate within Indian economy. This is actually saving ForEx and is beneficial any which way.
* Some actual R&D, which can be included thereby part of indigenous efforts overall, plus skill addition within the country, which does not necessarily mean lack of the same outside since Russians will have PAK-FA soon.

So, increase in costing is more to do about bean counting and that is all to it.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 10 Feb 2016 03:15

Philip wrote:There is no such law.I know the gent who was the first Indian who flew the MIG-25 and if I'm not right AM P.Rajkuma was the first who also flew the MIG-27.Both flew them in Russia.Any such test flying would however be very discreet,if it has already taken place.Why ask for the numerous modifications ?
Anyway,"miles to go before I sleep...."!

I was about to stay the same, so many of our aviators have flown so many frontline aircraft in Russia during the cold war.
This law is anything would be to selectively weed out the folks you want to turn away politely.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Feb 2016 13:10

The F-mag has some interesting tidbits.Result of the last discussions between the two sides.If true,there seems to have been some real movement on the deal,Indian requirements taken into consideration involving Indian input into the bird as wished for. "Technical and cost issues resolved for paving the way for signing of the final contract".The Ru DyMin of Trade and Industry,Boginskiy told the F-mag . "You will get what you want,we will translate the decisions made very quickly.We will give you competence,capability and technology to develop the 5th-gen aircraft".The FGFA is in its "final design phase after which the prototype would be frozen and production phase when weaponisation would be finalised".The bird is expected to eventually replace the MKIs in service,a fig of some 250 mentioned.When this will happen though,sealing the deal is in guessland.

It appears that the efforts to seal the Rafale deal has also had its effect on the FGFA matter.Compromise on the price evident as losing out completely would be a loss for both sides.No one else is willing to share with us stealth etch like the Russians in an aircraft already flying,and at a price that we can live with. Little progress on the MTA.Russia is going it alone as the Indian request for FADEC engines,not wanted earlier isn't being provided for by Russia,as the engines are the same proven ones used on the IL76/476.

srin · Post by **srin** » 10 Feb 2016 20:43

Been following this thread for a while but I'm a bit confused. Forget the FGFA, even the vanilla PAK-FA seems to be much more capable than our MKIs.
a) Definitely VLO (for my skilled RCS-measuring eye !)
b) Better engines - even the current one
c) Less MTOW, so better TWR.
d) More aerodynamic when carrying munitions due to internal bays.

So, even if HAL starts making PAK-FAs instead of MKIs tomorrow, it would still be a worthwhile buy as far as combat capability is concerned.

As for the FGFA, I'll make that a different post ...

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 10 Feb 2016 21:23

vishvak wrote:...

So, increase in costing is more to do about bean counting and that is all to it.

That and the fact that the CAPEX budget is in rupees. Higher cost> fewer planes> higher cost for parts>fewer planes

It's called the death spiral. OTOH, If the Russkies were willing to let us exclusively manufacture some significant portion of the parts and buy them from us...different story.

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 10 Feb 2016 21:31

From Twitter

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 53m53 minutes ago New Delhi, India

I have a feeling India will get 35 percent work share in the FGFA project.

I have a sneaking suspicion he reads this forum - have seen him commenting on issues under discussion here.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Feb 2016 21:44

srin wrote:Been following this thread for a while but I'm a bit confused. Forget the FGFA, even the vanilla PAK-FA seems to be much more capable than our MKIs.
a) Definitely VLO (for my skilled RCS-measuring eye !)
b) Better engines - even the current one
c) Less MTOW, so better TWR.
d) More aerodynamic when carrying munitions due to internal bays.

So, even if HAL starts making PAK-FAs instead of MKIs tomorrow, it would still be a worthwhile buy as far as combat capability is concerned.

As for the FGFA, I'll make that a different post ...

A few months ago that was my sentiment too.

However, the current version has some issues. What? I do not know. The RuAF itself seems to be vacillating. Per diff sources they want to order between 18-50. One thing for sure, there is uncertainty there. Besides like India they are ordering more Su-35s.

On the Indian side there is no confidence in the current PAK-FA, it just would not fly - for whatever reason/s.

My read is that this PAK-FA is not as advertised.

If the Russkies were willing to let us exclusively manufacture some significant portion of the parts

As I understand it, they intend using the current PAK-FA as a base and after investing a total of $8 billion, Russia will get her (enhanced) PAK-FA and India get FGFA.

The two will NOT be twins outside of looks perhaps. Two separate planes, each nation will handle her own plane from manufacturing to retiring.

From an Indian PoV this effort is designed to cut any umbilical. India expects to make a quantum leap in design, R&D, manufacturing, etc and be able to move away from help from anyone on such matters in the future.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Feb 2016 23:42

Just found this. As a data point:

Jan 15, 2016 :: RIR :: Fifth-gen fighter jets delayed for Russian Air Force

The PAK FA project has been one of the main drivers in the recovery of Russian defence capacities. Modern production facilities were constructed and R&D work carried out, reviving the Russian aviation construction school.

The project was based on established technologies used in another project, Russia’s first fifth-generation fighter; the MiG 1.44, and on the technology demonstrator the Su-47. The PAK FA got its engine from the MiG project, and the technology for manufacturing of composite parts from the Su project.

Many components of the new fighter were built while modernizing the Su-27, which approached fifth generation capabilities in its latest versions – the Su-30SM and Su-35S. Russian Aerospace Forces have yet to receive one such jet fighter, despite 14 years having passed since its inception.

Tests are protracted

The PAK FA project today consists of five flying prototypes and three copies, used for ground testing. Three additional aircraft are currently under construction. The testing work is close to completion, Yuri Borisov, Deputy Defence Minister, said in December last year.

Modernized Soviet “air-air” medium and long-range missiles (modernized Soviet R-73 (RVV-MD) and R-37 (RVV-BD)), built for the PAK FA as well as for the fourth-generation fighters, should have gone into mass production by the end of 2015. No one knows if this has happened as planned. Optimized for the PAK FA, the anti-radar KH-58USHK missile, which was designed on the base of the Kh-58 missile that entered service in 1978, is also still being tested.

New types of aircraft ammunition of the Grom (Thunder) project, designed specifically for the PAK FA, will be delivered to the armed forces no earlier than 2017.

When will it go into service?

Given the current problems, the Ministry of Defence has decided to reduce its purchase of the PAK FA, and opt for the cheaper and proven in production SU-35S.

“Yes, we are reducing our purchases of the PAK FA fighter, and in the coming years, we will buy only one squadron,” Borisov said in July 2015.

A squadron in the Russian Aerospace Forces consists of 12 aircraft. It is interesting to note that in May 2015, the Russian Air Force Commander Viktor Bondarev said that the military was ready to buy “as many PAK FA fighters as the manufacturing industry could create.”

It appears that either the economic situation, or the modest pace of development of the PAK FA programme, or a combination of both, has forced the Defence Ministry to reconsider its plans. Nothing has changed since the end of 2015 and, before the New Year, a contract was signed to buy 50 additional Su-35S.

That the programme has been delayed and facing difficulties that directly arose in 2015, is reflected in the postponement of the adoption of this aircraft into service. In May 2015, Bondarev said and in summer of 2015, Borisov confirmed that the aircraft would begin entry into the armed forces in 2016. In December 2015, Bondarev said the delivery of the PAK FA to the armed forces would begin only in 2017.

Immediate prospects

The refusal by the Ministry of Defence to buy large batches of PAK FA, before the aircraft is fully ready, is understandable, especially since the Russian military has had previous experience of operating Mi-28N helicopters without on-board radar and the Ka-52 helicopters without anti-tank Vikhr (Whirlwind) missiles. These problems were resolved, but the repetition of a similar situation with a much more expensive aircraft would not be rational, in the overall preparedness of the Aerospace Forces.

A small initial batch will allow military pilots to develop warfare and operational tactics by the year 2020, when the aircraft will get its new weapons, full-fledged radar, and most importantly, “engines of the second stage”. The latter will provide the PAK FA one of the key features of a fifth generation fighter; supersonic flight without the use of afterburners.

"India wants a ride on the T-50"

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 11 Feb 2016 00:07

From an Indian PoV this effort is designed to cut any umbilical. India expects to make a quantum leap in design, R&D, manufacturing, etc and be able to move away from help from anyone on such matters in the future.

That is ok, though the correct word is strategic partnership. The tweet above, about 35% work share, is not something hidden from anyone, including partners Russia.

Cutting the umbilical cord would be something similar to how the Chinese have developed naval capabilities so that the Chinese are not defeated even before American naval expeditionary forces enters the Chinese territorial waters next time, the way 7th Fleet of US navy entered the Bay of Bengal during Bangladesh independence war. The aim is to be on par with top dog with maximum indigenous capabilities primarily, roughly speaking, and not rhetoric about Russia v/s US naval up manship and cutting the umbilical cord.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Feb 2016 00:09

I have a suspicion hum phir CAG report padenge on how Russian's ullu'ed HAL and gave TOT 4 years late forcing HAL to import more CKD/SKD PAKFAs.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Feb 2016 00:26

India and Russia revive FGFA talks

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 11 Feb 2016 01:02

Let me put it this way:
(1) Alphabet soup treaties is does not come with corruption if anyone signs on it, or if autonomy is robbed off - even in parts. Since no one is going to talk about anything under any labels anywhere, and is off topic here.
(2) What is the cost of autonomy, one can actually see this in action when Sukhoi MKI does offer this concrete option.

OT here, but Indian MIC should have a very strong R&D component as part and parcel.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Feb 2016 02:47

so essentially, $4b for 3 PMF/FGFA and tech transfer. Is this the same kind of transfer like how to hold the screw driver at what angle? we need some high level RTI to this

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 11 Feb 2016 03:42

SaiK wrote:so essentially, $4b for 3 PMF/FGFA and tech transfer. Is this the same kind of transfer like how to hold the screw driver at what angle? we need some high level RTI to this

Yes but it's Russian so we owe them and they certainly feel entitled. As someone said before, the Russians need someone (us) to fund their R&D while they hold a pistol to their own heads (a la Pakistan) threatening to sell 'it' to the Chinese.

The angle of the screwdriver is less important than its destination and we all know where that is.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Feb 2016 03:47

so essentially, $4b for 3 PMF/FGFA and tech transfer. Is this the same kind of transfer like how to hold the screw driver at what angle?

Depends.

No nation would like to part with, even if it is paid for by top dollars, their crown jewels.

So.

The R&D phase, being negotiated for a total of $8 billion, was supposed to have brought two teams - one from each nation, located in both nations equally, etc - together for the R&D. Recall India has already spent $295 mil for the "preliminary design" and Sukhoi and Russia have also already spent a ton (I do not know how much) on the T-50.

So, there is a platform - just that it is not mature. Which is why they are proposing to spend $8 mil (actually $10 mil) - to make it mature. However, since the two cannot come to an agreement what a "5th Gen" plane they would like it has been decided to make two plane: PAK-FA and the FGFA.

So, coming back to your original comment/question. India will get a complete R&D phase, which is *supposed* to mean that the Russians will walk through those techs that India has identified for the FGFA and by extension are expected to be exposed to what the Russians do for the PAK-FA - common R&D.

The work-share - it seems to me - is around IP. Initially it was agreed to equal IP, then the Russians backtracked (I think that was fair - I would too), the Indians followed with we do not want that (why are we paying equal amount if the IP is skewed? which is right too). So, now it seems - my read - the Russians need the funds, so they will allow Indians in the room while the Russians talk and design and R&D along with Indians. But the two sides will build two separate planes. And, both sides will be privy to both the planes. However, when it comes to testing, etc each side will conduct independent efforts.

I am not too certain where the three Indian prototypes will be built - I was expecting them to be built in India - that is the only way the picture would be complete and worth the $4 billion. And, it would address the "angle of the screw driver". But let us see.

IF this works out it will be good for India. I do not think it will provide plenty of details, but it would expose India to a lot more than if she had not got into the project. The issue, as I see it, is not spending the $4 billion (the graduated spending is India's way to protect herself), it is the design (prelim already done), R&D, building and then productizing that is worth the ride.

And, I do no think Indians consider the T-50, as a platform to build on, as a dud. Again, my read - Indian I feel knows that the T-50 is immature and needs a massive upgrade.

forcing HAL to import more CKD/SKD PAKFAs.

I do not even think that is possible. The FGFA - if it comes to fruition the way it is envisioned - will have very little in common with the Russian PAK-FA. IF they want kits, etc, then - I think - India will have to abandon the FGFA and import the *then* PAK-FA or get the *then* PAK-FA and modify (MKI). Either option IMHO will not be agreeable to the IAF.

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