Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 23 Feb 2016 12:45

DSRVs are already ordered as per CNS in interview to undie tv

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 23 Feb 2016 14:01

http://www.huntnews.in/p/detail/99013fb ... at=english
Arihant passes deep-sea tests. All set for operations

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 23 Feb 2016 16:14

^^^ IIRC, Aridhaman is ready and was supposed to be launched late last year.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 23 Feb 2016 23:45

RFS Epron was commissioned in 1959.

Obviously gets the job done.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Feb 2016 05:35

^^ same news different report

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 098650.cms

India’s first nuclear submarine INS Arihant ready for
operations, passes deep sea tests

NEW DELHI: India's first nuclear armed submarine is now ready for full fledged operations,
having passed several deep sea diving drills as well as weapons launch tests over the past
five months and a formal induction into the naval fleet is only a political call away.

Multiple officials closely associated with the project to operationalize the INS Arihant nuclear
missile submarine have confirmed to ET that the indigenouslybuilt boat is now fullyoperational
and over the past few months, several weapon tests have taken place in
secrecy that have proven the capabilities of the vessel.

The Arihant, which is the first of five nuclear missile submarines or SSBNs planned for induction, has also undergone deep sea dives off
Vishakhapatnam where it was build. A Russian diving support ship —the RFS Epron that arrived on October 1 — has been accompanying
the Arihant on its deep sea dives and launch tests, officials told ET.

The Epron — a Prut class submarine rescue vessel — was also the Russian representation for the recently concluded International Fleet
Review (IFR) in Vishakhapatnam. India does not currently possess a submarine rescue vessel of this class a vital requirement during
weapon firing tests where all possibilities need to be catered for. The Arihant incidentally did nottake part in the IFR even though it was
ready due to security concerns. The presence of 24 foreign warships, equipped with sensors and equipment that could pick up vital
electronic intelligence being the main deterrent.

The Navy has managed to keep under wraps several weapon launch tests from the Arihant over the past five months. The submarine is to
be equipped with K 15 (or BO5) shortrange missiles with a range of over 700 km and the K 4 ballistic missile with a range of 3,500 km. "It
has passed all tests and in many things has surpassed our expectations.

Technically the submarine can now be commissioned at any time," a senior official said. Sources told ETthat the commissioning date
could be as early as next month if the Modi government desires. A communication facility to interact with the submarine has already been
commissioned into the Navy.

At present, work is already in progress on two more Arihant class submarines at the Ship Building Center (SBC) in Vishakhapatnam which
will be larger and more advanced than the first boat. The navy is also accelerating work on INS Varsha a new strategic naval base with
underground pens on the Eastern Coast near Kakinada where the nuclear assets would be based.

The Navy's Submarine Design Bureau is also presently working on a new class of nuclear powered attack submarines (SSNs) that it
hopes to induct within the next 15 years. The plan is to build at least six SSNs in India, with financial sanction given last year for the
project that could cost upwards of Rs 90,000 crore. At present, the only nuclear powered platform in service is the INS Chakra, a Akula
class SSN on lease from Russia.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 24 Feb 2016 05:47

Its Manu pubby, would have preferred a report from Hindus TSS. Generally more reliable.

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Feb 2016 05:48

^^ I guess time for unveiling has come and hence, a nudge from GoI to leak all the stuff required.

Else i doubt anyone from ATV project ever opens their mouth to the DDM, esp with this govt in place

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2016 06:51

both Aridaman and Anupama have 8 K4 tubes incase anyone still did not know.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 24 Feb 2016 07:03

#rd submarine is Anupama ? Reference ?
Also I thoughtthe layout of Aridhaman's VLS was a little different allowing more VLS tubes.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 24 Feb 2016 07:04

Singha wrote:both Aridaman and Anupama have 8 K4 tubes incase anyone still did not know.

First time hearing the name Anupama, any further details about it please?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 24 Feb 2016 07:53

Anu = Atom

I like ...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2016 08:14

I threw that in to honour anupama verma of the early 1990s

...seemed kind of right to have a female name also.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2016 08:17

prasannasimha wrote:#rd submarine is Anupama ? Reference ?
Also I thoughtthe layout of Aridhaman's VLS was a little different allowing more VLS tubes.

Arihant class unless it adds a box thing cannot have the 2 rows arrangement due to hull round shape and not enough diameter..it is afterall no bigger than a LA class SSN. hence it goes for 1 row with slight zig-zag like the bullets inside the INSAS magazine.

so Aridaman either has a bigger hull diameter (very unlikely), a boxier hump for 2 rows x 4 (possible, will impact noise) or a longer plug section (possible but will impact speed)

I am going with option#2 for now as that is a proven low risk solution and russians have long used it....the increase in noise and weight will be minimal if the hump is streamlined...K4 is relatively small vs the makeyev beasts on the delta-class which needed a huge box.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Feb 2016 10:25

I would hope that the reactors for the next 2 SSBNs are of a more powerful type,or that the capability of the Arihant's reactor has been deliberately rated lower (for obvious reasons) than what it's capable of,sufficient for the next two boats. With the huge help being obtained from Russia for our SSBN programme,DSRVs,etc.,obtaining from them assistance for more powerful N-reactors shouldn't be a major problem especially as we've plans to build at least 6 SSNs,where the Russian design bureaus will have their role to play. Remember the reports about the IN wanting Yasen tech. So I don't envisage any major problems in the next two,since we've now official reports that Arihant is ready for commissioning.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 24 Feb 2016 11:58

It (the name) has to start with Ari so possible Arinasha Arijaya Arhivazhagan Arijit or Arijaya or something like that. Something like the Sindhi class

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2016 15:53

for comparison the RN has already gone through about 29 n-subs already ...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2016 19:47

facebook:

General V.K. Singh
7 hrs ·
It is indeed a proud moment for all of us that India’s first nuclear-armed submarine INS Arihant is now ready for full-fledged operations having passed several deep sea diving drills as well as weapons launch tests over the past five months.
India has become only the world’s sixth country after the US, Russia, France, the UK and China to indigenously Design, Develop and Build a ballistic missile submarines (SSBN).
With this achievement, India has successfully completed her Nuclear Triad, i.e., the delivery of a strategic nuclear arsenal by Air, Sea and Land. Of the three legs of the triad, the SLBMs (Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile) are considered the most important because nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines aka SSBN are the hardest to destroy.
Jai Hind!

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 24 Feb 2016 19:53

prasannasimha wrote:It (the name) has to start with Ari so possible Arinasha Arijaya Arhivazhagan Arijit or Arijaya or something like that. Something like the Sindhi class

Wasn't the third sub supposed to be INS Avinash?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 24 Feb 2016 19:54

Saars,
Comparing the google earth pictures of the Arihant and the Kilos,
It seems that the Arihant's sail is only slightly bigger, or maybe the same length as a kilos.
Also the distance from the front to the begining of the sail is also very similar.
The diameter at the water line also looks similar.

So maybe the design is derived from the Kilo, with a plug for 4 missile tubes and a N reactor. Rest all - diesels, batteries, gearbox may be MKIsed but similar. The interiors and bridge might look more like a HDW class

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 24 Feb 2016 19:58

General V.K. Singh wrote:With this achievement, India has successfully completed her Nuclear Triad, i.e., the delivery of a strategic nuclear arsenal by Air, Sea and Land.
Jai Hind!

Not quite yet sir

Not until the physics package is field tested by the end user, and the end user is satisfied that it is safe for the end user to field deploy it. That the ens user personnel can live in close proximity to it safely.

Firing off a SLBM exposes a sub to grave danger, from the launch itself and from the risk of detection. If an Indian sub has to fire off an N-tipped missile in anger, the IN HAS TO KNOW THAT THE PHYSICS PACKAGE WILL WORK AS DESIRED.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 24 Feb 2016 20:12

Gaganji, the physics package for SSBN is expected to be so different from Agnis that it needs additional validation by the user? I believe you are saying this based on the difference in fissile materials used in the warhead.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 24 Feb 2016 20:20

During undersea launch sub will have to maintain its depth when firing a silo of SLBMs, because after each launch sub becomes lighter and lighter hence ballast tanks will be purged in a controlled manner.

But here we have one arm which adopts a home grown products like a baby and cares for it until it matures, accepting all of its flaws but focusing on its strength.

Other arms are still stuck in eternal winter/summer/wet trials.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Feb 2016 22:03

8 k4 tubes is a terror in deep seas onree.

what we also don't know is the signature -[main IFF: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Idaho.html]

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 26 Feb 2016 00:12

http://atimes.com/2016/02/look-out-chin ... ady-to-go/

A few interesting titbits
a) However, unlike U.S. ballistic missile submarines, the Indian vessel also has a hunter-killer role and will be armed with a host of torpedoes and anti-ship missiles
b) It is powered by an 80 megawatt pressurized water reactor and can reach a submerged speed of twenty-four knots.
c) It can reach a speed of 12kt-15kt on surface and up to 24kt when submerged. source http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/arihant-class/

It would seem a lot of the above is emprical guess work

If the above speed (submerged) is correct she could be an escort to CBG as an additional role,till our hunter killer subs get comissioned

morem · Post by **morem** » 26 Feb 2016 18:23

Per panwallah source , there are 7 submarines planned for Arihant class. TIFWIW

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Feb 2016 18:30

Eric,this is what was discussed when she was unveiled first,that she could switch from a SSGN role to an SSBN one. The Ohio conversion and Oscar class SSGNs,were probably what the IN took a good look at,as we aren't rich enough and require some tech input, to possess/produce several diff. types of N-subs at the present time.

Once the second batch with more ICBM silos arrive,the first series could then revert to an SSGN role.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 26 Feb 2016 19:50

X-post

http://idrw.org/rise-of-indias-nuclear-submarine-fleet/

A gist of planned nuclear submarine acquisitions. 8-10 SSBNs, 6 SSNs. Assuming MIRVs (3 warheads) on K4MII or K5 you can estimate number of warheads on sea.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Feb 2016 20:00

can rate-hull-he supply maals for 7 subs - ie, expecting mirv conf in each of those k4?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Feb 2016 20:14

12 VL brahmos in the pure play SSN role + perhaps 20 HWT are more anti-ship hitting power than any of our ships incl p15a+ (16 brahmos). and bear in mind the TT room will be to bigger russian spec and those 20 weapons could be a mix of HWT and supersonic Klub also.

a coupla cats like this can wipe out a moderate size navy without risking having to bear a counter-salvo of ASMs from the rival side

p15a has a range of 6000nm at economy speed. Arihant has @ 15 knots * 24 hrs * 30 days = 12000nm....multiplied by 3 months...essentially 6 times the sea miles and perhaps 3 times time on-station.

whats not to like

no wonder unkil has kept on building SSNs as fast as he can, while other progrs like zumwalt , LCS, new carriers need political backing...

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 26 Feb 2016 20:27

Eric Leiderman wrote: If the above speed (submerged) is correct she could be an escort to CBG as an additional role,till our hunter killer subs get comissioned

There are some serious doubts on this 24 knots figure. For comparison, an 8000 ton Akula II with 190 MWt provides only about 29 MWe to power the Akula to 30+ knots ranges. IOW: the thermal to electric conversion for the Russian designs is not exactly great. One cannot hope to be cruising say even at 20 Knots in the Arihant and provide protection to CBG and other destroyers, which do have capabilities to go above 30+ knots and provide protection. As I have said before, propulsion is the name of the game for the SSN, sustained speeds of 30+ knots is required for an SSKN role. SSGN is secondary for the our SSN project, The Arindham will be even slower due to some extra tonnage with the same propulsion as the Arihant?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 26 Feb 2016 21:43

morem wrote:Per panwallah source , there are 7 submarines planned for Arihant class. TIFWIW

This is what my chaiwallah told me too...but he was the chaiwallah at site. So I am surprised at no mention of this larger number anywhere. His number was six more other than the one on trials. Three seems too little to make a difference imo with two adversaries for India.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 26 Feb 2016 21:46

^ guys, pls go easy on the numbers .. will get jingos delirium attacks ..

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 26 Feb 2016 22:03

In the long run the numbers for India and China would tend to be close. Hence, these are not outlandish claims. It perhaps reflects the thoughts on the ground, even if no funding approvals have been made for the same.

member_29190 · Post by **member_29190** » 26 Feb 2016 23:09

May be I am missing some references, feel this SSN cum SSBN is a nice idea. Instead of having dedicated SSBN, where the adversary would put in dedicated resource to track, SSN which can fire BM, would be a headache to keep track off.

Adversary will not know if the SSN/SSBN which just left the port contains the "maal" or is it just a normal SSN. In a war every nuke sub needs to be hit to be sure the maal has been neutralised.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 26 Feb 2016 23:35

nit wrote:May be I am missing some references, feel this SSN cum SSBN is a nice idea. Instead of having dedicated SSBN, where the adversary would put in dedicated resource to track, SSN which can fire BM, would be a headache to keep track off.

Adversary will not know if the SSN/SSBN which just left the port contains the "maal" or is it just a normal SSN. In a war every nuke sub needs to be hit to be sure the maal has been neutralised.

Classical deterrence works based on clear signaling. Asset type mixing is a case of mixed signaling and any adversary should presume the worst. Disadvantage for the holder of mixed assets, they loose the advantage of using conventional force. The presumption being there is still scope for conventional battles without the use of or resort to nuclear weapons.

Pakistan is an example where they do actually want us to be confused as they do not have this conventional strength. India does not need to resort to these tactics due to its fire power differentials with Pakistan and the ability to at least act defensively against PLAN.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 26 Feb 2016 23:47

nit wrote:May be I am missing some references, feel this SSN cum SSBN is a nice idea. Instead of having dedicated SSBN, where the adversary would put in dedicated resource to track, SSN which can fire BM, would be a headache to keep track off.

Adversary will not know if the SSN/SSBN which just left the port contains the "maal" or is it just a normal SSN. In a war every nuke sub needs to be hit to be sure the maal has been neutralised.

Its a super bad idea. Like its a super bad idea to arm Agni missile with conventional explosives. IF enemy detects it, they will think you are planning a nuclear strike on them and they may react with counter strike with their own nuclear arsenal. Never use nuclear delivery platforms for conventional strike.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 26 Feb 2016 23:50

Bade wrote:
morem wrote:Per panwallah source , there are 7 submarines planned for Arihant class. TIFWIW
This is what my chaiwallah told me too...but he was the chaiwallah at site. So I am surprised at no mention of this larger number anywhere. His number was six more other than the one on trials. Three seems too little to make a difference imo with two adversaries for India.

I believe the rest of Arihant class hulls ( beyond the 3 under construction/testing ) are getting converted to SSN. New SSBN classes will be atleast 9000 tons going forward. I believe they will be carrying two power packs and 12 missile silos.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Feb 2016 06:02

UK long term will have 6 SSN and 3-4 SSBN. same for france. the days of very large fleets are gone due to expenses.

every russian n-sub can be presumed to be carrying a mix of conventional and n-weapons including the ss-n-21 and granits . the worlds hasnt collapsed due to it. the trajectory & speed of a K4 and a brahmos/nirbhay is very different. so long as we do not arm a K4 / K15 with a conventional warhead there is no confusion. we would still retain the option of arming the nirbhay with a n-warhead if we have to - both the boeing ALCM and the KH55/KH101 have mixed mode warheads (boeing alcm is now retired)

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Feb 2016 06:39

Assured deterrence is all that matters. mission from sub-surface is aimed at delivering "any country's" economy and military might to ashes, which essentially means "do so kilo maals" concurrent delivery to destruction is accessible withing 2.5k miles from the deep seas and trenches. I'd not expect multiple targets spread across thousands of miles strategic enough to withstand a destruction of a dozen cities or installations to think ahead for the first strike. So, the assured config would be like 6-8 x 3 mirvs. now a fleet of 6 would essentially tell what it means to realize vajpyaee's dream of "unacceptability" as well. iow, 'sathya naash".

soooo.. that is the config we have to get there.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 27 Feb 2016 07:30

ShauryaT

" There are some serious doubts on this 24 knots figure. For comparison, an 8000 ton Akula II with 190 MWt provides only about 29 MWe to power the Akula to 30+ knots ranges. IOW: the thermal to electric conversion for the Russian designs is not exactly great. One cannot hope to be cruising say even at 20 Knots in the Arihant and provide protection to CBG and other destroyers, which do have capabilities to go above 30+ knots and provide protection. As I have said before, propulsion is the name of the game for the SSN, sustained speeds of 30+ knots is required for an SSKN role. SSGN is secondary for the our SSN project, The Arindham will be even slower due to some extra tonnage with the same propulsion as the Arihant?"

As regards the 24 knots v/s 30 knots and 80 MWt v/s 190 MWt
there is a cube function wrt speed v/s power.

Also the Scorpions on submerged electric power are rated at 20 kts

No body knows the speed for sure, as that is classified, however an educated guess will not be that far off.

The killer sub is just part of the screen deployed by a CBG , We will have helis with dunkin sonar etc. to name just one alternative. Also the CBG cannot sustain a 30+ knot speed for long due to the logistics involved.
So the Arihant can be a part of the CBG if the Navy does not have an alternative.