Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1629
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 03 Mar 2016 18:41

Actually I have heard that in the IAF during flight training the instructors don't shy from giving whacks to the trainee officers (commissioned officers) and are very descriptive in their language to say the least. Is that correct Deejay ? Teaches you humility I guess. I met an AAC (was from MechInf) officer once who told me how his naval flight instructor had a rough style so he just completely packed up and couldn't function. But the instructor was so committed that he took permission to transfer this guy to another instructor (army) and he then became a chopper pilot. He met his old instructor later and thanked him.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1629
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 03 Mar 2016 18:48

Now that I think of it, it was about 8 years ago and the AAC officer told me that they were very relieved that the cheetah and chetak replacement was widely expected (very very late even then and accidents were happening). And 8 years later nothing has changed. On that sad note, I'm signing off for a smoke (if my new wife lets me)

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4008
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 03 Mar 2016 18:54

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Actually I have heard that in the IAF during flight training the instructors don't shy from giving whacks to the trainee officers (commissioned officers) and are very descriptive in their language to say the least. Is that correct Deejay ? That is much tougher to take than anything during training. But teaches you humility I guess ?


Sir, NDA is the toughest by miles for any IAF entry. Physical aspects of IAF training are much milder at AFA. For trainee pilots (flight cadets only, not commissioned officers), its just bad luck if you land with an instructor who hits.

The instructor - pupil relations are almost Guru - Shishya type. The instructor literally has his heart in mouth every time he sends his pupils on 'solo'. The dual cockpit situations are thus very intense. ~01 hr and a lot to be driven into the heads of the trainee. Shouting and screaming are par for the course. Though there are a few saints who never shout or never hit.

Most of the hitting is on the arm or thigh and many of us would be all blue on our right side (left seat for the pupil) in the HPT and Kiran but with those PCs and AJTs hitting is a thing of the past. One particular instructor (also an examiner) was particularly fond of grabbing the throat but would always compensate by coming down and treating his pupils in the evening, all on his account.

On ground there is absolutely no hitting but adjectives do flow.

Once commissioned, all the flak is mostly limited to adjectives with very rare aberrations if any.

P.S. Read your last post after posting the above. I will join you for a smoke separated by vast distances. 8)

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1629
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 03 Mar 2016 19:14

:wink:

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1629
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 03 Mar 2016 19:21

Hey Deejay,

This is Akshay's "new wife". Sorry, but permission denied...

Melissa

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby shiv » 03 Mar 2016 19:53

^^ :rotfl:

This is a new one for BRF - posting by SHQ!

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4008
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 03 Mar 2016 21:26

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Hey Deejay,

This is Akshay's "new wife". Sorry, but permission denied...

Melissa


:D Too bad Kapoor Sir. I went ahead with my plans.

Apologies to the lady for any unintentional inconvenience.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1629
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 03 Mar 2016 23:04

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Just saw her comment. No inconvenience....big laugh and got me the smoke in the end.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7734
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby rohitvats » 03 Mar 2016 23:27

The last bastion of men has been compromised....

adityadange
BRFite
Posts: 274
Joined: 04 Aug 2011 11:34

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby adityadange » 04 Mar 2016 16:45

Spotted 2 dhruvs in the Southern command sky at around 5pm. Color scheme was very much similar to this one:
Image.
I have never seen these machines here. Happy to see though.
After thinking a while i concluded that these might be here for the multi national exercise taking place here. Anybody have more info what is their role in this exercise?

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Surya » 04 Mar 2016 18:08

Akshay

The IAF frowns on hitting by instructors.

my friend's instructor was a very famous pilot- who once whacked him black and blue on the arm. Next morning his arm was swollen and the doctor reported it.

he was called in front of the CO and grilled but caught between a rock and a hard place he stuck to a story of falling etc

The CO was a wise man and gently moved the famous instructor out over the next few weeks

every stint my friend has done subsequently as an instructor he makes sure that no physical abuse is allowed


Ps : great now my SHQ will get ideas for posting here :mrgreen:

rsingh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3439
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 01:05
Location: Pindi
Contact:

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby rsingh » 04 Mar 2016 18:39

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Hey Deejay,

This is Akshay's "new wife". Sorry, but permission denied...

Melissa


La haul vila quvat.........never thought yeh din bhu dekhne padenge :(( . What next Joint Central Command?

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4008
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby deejay » 04 Mar 2016 19:25

Surya wrote:Akshay

The IAF frowns on hitting by instructors.

my friend's instructor was a very famous pilot- who once whacked him black and blue on the arm. Next morning his arm was swollen and the doctor reported it.

he was called in front of the CO and grilled but caught between a rock and a hard place he stuck to a story of falling etc

The CO was a wise man and gently moved the famous instructor out over the next few weeks

every stint my friend has done subsequently as an instructor he makes sure that no physical abuse is allowed


Ps : great now my SHQ will get ideas for posting here :mrgreen:


True, hitting is officially, actively discouraged.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1629
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 04 Mar 2016 22:18

I know Deejay. And as you say guru shishya mein yeh chalta hai. Guru brahama.....

I've never heard any cribs.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1629
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 04 Mar 2016 22:19

Surya wrote:Akshay



Ps : great now my SHQ will get ideas for posting here :mrgreen:


Great practical evidence of need for cyber security....


Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21175
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Prem » 05 Mar 2016 10:08

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/education/ ... 11828.html
Lt Col Sophia Qureshi becomes first woman officer to lead Indian Army contingent: Interesting facts

Lt Col Sophia Qureshi of the Corps of Signals has created history by achieving the rare distinction of becoming the first woman officer to lead a training contingent of the Indian Army at Force 18, the ongoing ASEAN Plus multinational field training exercise.The 40-member Indian contingent is slated to play a key role in training with other troops in Peacekeeping Operations (PKOs) and Humanitarian Mine Action (HMA).The multilateral military training exercise, being hosted by the Indian Army in Pune from March 2 to March 8, is the army's largest ever such exercise and is likely to witness the participation of 18 ASEAN Plus countries including China, USA, Russia, Japan and South Korea.In the ongoing exercise, Querishi's prime role is to provide training inputs for peacekeeping operations, but the assignment has a lot to do with her family legacy. As per the reports, she was picked from a pool of peacekeeping trainers to lead the contingent. In the first phase of the training programme, over 28 foreign trainers were trained by the Indian Army from February 24 to March 1, 2016. Qureshi, 35, also happens to be the only woman officer Contingent Commander among all ASEAN Plus contingents present for the exercise.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Singha » 05 Mar 2016 11:52

IBN

NEW DELHI:
HIGHLIGHTS
Defence Minister: Indian military must cut 'flab' amid rising wage bills
Military manpower to be cut to deal with rising salary bills, pensions
Reduction in manpower to be decided by the forces: Defence Minister

The military has to cut manpower, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said on Friday. With over 1.3 million men in uniform in the three forces - the Army, Navy and Air Force - the Indian military is the third largest military in the world.

"Flab in the military" has to be cut, he said. It could start with the Army. "I have asked the Army to identify the areas, it will take time and cannot be done overnight," Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today said.

Burgeoning pension and salary bills have forced a rethink on the size of the standing military. This year the exchequer will be spending about Rs. 95,000 crore on salaries, an increase of nearly 16 per cent in two years. This year's pension bill stands at Rs. 82,333 crore.

Both pension and salaries have been rising over the years leaving less and less for funds for acquiring much needed modern military hardware. Funds available to acquire new military hardware this year is about Rs. 80,000 crore down by about Rs.14,000 crore from last year.

"Every military station has telephone operators. What is the need for operators in today's time when everything is automated? Much of the training can be carried out through simulators reducing, in some areas, the need to maintain large training staff and establishments," Mr Parrikar said. "These reductions in manpower will be decided by the forces," he said.

Earlier, when the Mountain Strike Corps which added about 80,000 men to the military, was being raised, rising salary and pension bills became a subject were discussed.

A smart, lean military is "better" than a big, unwieldy, manpower-centric military, the Defence Minister said.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Singha » 05 Mar 2016 12:01

imo long term we should aim for 25 divs rather than current 35 - half of them mech , half mountain but...

very beefy helicopter, AA and artillery for every division
2 of these 25 be airborne with required artillery , special IFV / 4 x 4 etc, gunships etc desi 101st div
a lot of indep arty brigades - masses of heavy tubed and MLRS
indep arty divisions housing our missile units from prahaar upto 1000km area denial systems

Amrika orbat has
2 armour divs
14 infantry - all are mechanized with IFVs in large nos barring one mountain div
2 airborne
SOCOM, a few(5) indep regiments

but all of their formations are mech, have air support assets up to A-10 and all are fully manned upto 25,000 people in a deployment situation...they do not lack in materials and kit.

just like our 1st armour "fakhr e hind" they have their own 1st armoured "old ironsides" with a frightening number of tanks IFVs and artillery...more like a reinforced corps than a division imo.

rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1165
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby rkhanna » 05 Mar 2016 12:50

Reduction in Opex needs to be planned with a Suitable increase in Capex. And not just helos, rafales, etc etc. The Basica Infantryman needs better gear

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3478
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Aditya G » 05 Mar 2016 13:03

The idea, or at least this latest thrust to cut manpower is a direct fallout of OROP and general poor man management. By the latter I mean GOI's failure to ensure all retiring soldiers are placed in CAPFs, ICG, Police and other govt services till the age of 60. Had that happened, the OROP demands would not have arisen. And now with OROP in place, the retiring soldiers have no incentive to seek reemployment. It is a criminal waste of talent and productive manpower.

We need to place a innovative financial solution to manage the pensions bill. For example, pensions could be ORP till 60, but a component of which will be defined contribution to NPS. Post 60 everyone will get pensions from NPS corpus.

We need an orientation and sensitivity in GOI and state governments around spending of tax payers money.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1629
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 05 Mar 2016 13:08

I have said many times that we can reduce the size of the army and increase firepower but for that we have to end the terrorism in J&K. We have a large number of troops tied down there because of a war unleashed on our own soil and we have done nothing about eliminating the source or imposing a cost. This way Pak forces us to keep a larger and hollow army and ties down our troops without sacrificing any of theirs. So the first step in achieving what you say Singha is start imposing unacceptable costs on Pak.

habal
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6886
Joined: 24 Dec 2009 18:46

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby habal » 05 Mar 2016 14:28

But do we not get a ready made excuse to keep a large force in Kashmir and a short cut across to the heart of terrorist country viz Slamabad, Rawalpindi and thus really threaten their core. What is Pakistan anyway ? If Slamabad & Rawalpindi are compromised in any way, two stray nuclear bombs accidentaly fall over these cities and then Lahore is so close anyway, these are the two nodes of pakjabi control of Pakistan. Without these control nodes, pakistan is finished .. and the remaining folks are free agents.

we do not have the heart to do a lot of death and destruction, it is not going to be pretty. And it will be brutal. But it can be done, and we keep our options open.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Austin » 05 Mar 2016 15:14

The mountain is now a molehill - Sandeep Unnithan

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 04583.html

The government pares down its ambitious Mountain Strike Corps meant to capture Chinese territory in the event of a border war.

Last December, Prime Minister Narendra Modi triggered off a bout of anxiety within the Indian army. "At a time when the major powers are reducing their forces and relying more on technology, we are still constantly seeking to expand the size of our forces," he said, addressing the Combined Commanders' Conference, a crucial once-a-year gathering of commanders from the three services, onboard the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya. "Modernisation and expansion of forces, both at the same time, is a difficult and unnecessary goal." The PM's reference was to the army, which had been raising a new mountain strike corps (MSC) comprising 90,000 soldiers since 2014.

In 2013, the UPA had sanctioned the corps-an offensive formation meant to cross the Himalayas and capture Chinese territory on the Tibetan plateau in the event of a border war-but did not allot the Rs 64,000 crore required to get it off the ground. The army equipped the new formations from their War Wastage Reserves in the hope of enhanced budgetary support at a later date.

On January 13, less than a month after the PM's speech, army chief General Dalbir Singh told the media that the strike corps was on course and would be raised by 2021. The truth is somewhat different. The 17 Corps-India's Fourth Strike Corps, in addition to the three Corps that face Pakistan, temporarily headquartered in Ranchi, Jharkhand, is far from being on course.

The 59 Mountain Division with 16,000 soldiers has already been raised in Panagarh, West Bengal, but the proposed 72 Mountain Division in Pathankot has been stalled. One general terms the 17 Corps as "defunct" since it has just one division as against a minimum requirement of two. The future looks bleak. Union finance minister Arun Jaitley's budget on February 29 is expected to only modestly hike outlays for the armed forces. It is unlikely to bring the army any cheer, because, as the PM warned, increasing manpower and simultaneously modernising will be near impossible. Here's why. The army consumes half the Rs 2.46 lakh crore defence budget, but spends nearly 70 per cent of it in salaries and maintenance, leaving just 20 per cent to buy new equipment. It requires at least Rs 10,000 crore each year to buy new equipment, but is left with only Rs 1,500 crore for new purchases after paying off pre-committed liabilities. It has a backlog of over Rs 4 lakh crore in new equipment-rifles, vehicles, missiles, artillery guns and helicopters-that have not been acquired for decades. Much of this equipment is also meant to give teeth to its new corps.

Image

The Frozen Strike Corps


Prime Minister Modi's worries over the growing size of the Indian army began long before China's President Xi Jingping announced this January that he was trimming the world's largest army by 3,00,000 soldiers and transforming it into a more agile, lethal and technologically superior force. Sometime before the Union budget of 2015, the PM pored over a list of major expenditure items, looking for cost heads to prune so that budgetary allocations to the states could be hiked. His eyes hovered over the Rs 64,000 crore proposal for upgrading border infrastructure and to fully equip the still-under-raising strike corps. The PM balked at the proposal and reportedly asked for a review. One of the key findings of an internal review carried out by National Security Advisor Ajit Doval is believed to have recommended freezing the 17 Corps raisings at its present levels and absorbing it into the present holding corps along the China border.

In a media interview last April, Union defence minister Manohar Parrikar said that the government had halved the size of the corps-down to Rs 38,000 crore over eight years and 35,000 men. He blamed the previous government for making the higher estimates without catering for budgetary allocations, but clarified in another interview the following month that the strike corps was only being slowed down, not scrapped. A senior army official denies there has been any reduction in the funding or equipping of the corps. "Everything is going on at full steam," he says. The only delay, he says, has been caused by the Ordnance Factory Board that has been slow to replenish ammunition stocks from its War Wastage Reserves. The army has good reason to deny a slowdown of the corps. They claim the offensive deterrent capability had unsettled the Chinese even before it had been fully raised. Defence analyst Mandeep Bajwa warns the slowdown could have long term implications on the border. "The new corps had worried China which then toned down its belligerence along the border," he says.

Stalled Counter-Punch

The strike corps are offensive formations which, the army is fond of saying, has no tasks on its own soil. It is a purely offensive force directed at the enemy. A general who did the spadework for the Mountain Strike Corps explains its logic. Imagine a boxing bout, he says, where one contestant is constantly on the defensive even as his opponent rains blows, finally beating him to a pulp. "When you fight a defensive battle," he says, "you lose flexibility." The Strike Corps was to radically alter the army's traditionally defensive stance since the humiliating defeat in the 1962 border war with China. It was to be the Indian army's left and right hook, launched on the high altitude deserts of Ladakh or through the mountains of Arunachal Pradesh. Backed by artillery, Brahmos missiles, light tanks, special forces and helicopters, these two mountain infantry divisions would break through Chinese defences, cross over into the Tibetan plateau and capture territory that would be a bargaining chip in a post-conflict settlement.

The challenges are formidable though. Right now, the divisions would have to ascend from the plains at 500 metres up to heights of over 5,000 metres on the Tibetan plateau. Unlike the plains where strike corps attack in ratios of 1:3, three attackers for every defender, manpower intensive mountain warfare needs a ratio of 1:9. The strike corps evolved under NDA-I after the Kargil War of 1999 and the massive 11-month Operation Parakram deployment on the Pakistan border, which began in December 2001. The Indian army prepared new doctrines for limited wars under the nuclear umbrella.

The rapid Chinese infrastructure build-up across the disputed 4,000-km line of control with China revived the spectre of a simultaneous war with that country and Pakistan. The army, they believed, could no longer rush troops from the LAC with China, towards the Pakistan border, as it had done during Operation Parakram. Through its massive network of all-weather roads on the Tibetan plateau and the new Qinghai-Tibet railway line, the PLA could now mobilise against the Indian army anywhere it chose. "We war-gamed the scenarios dozens of times," says a general commanding a strike corps, "the conclusions were always the same. The Chinese could get us wherever they wanted. We had nothing to deter them with, no high-value target we could seize and hold."

These fears manifested in the raksha mantri's operational directive to the armed forces in 2009, a Top Secret 'eyes only' document, asked the armed forces to prepare themselves for a 'two-front war' simultaneously against Pakistan and China. That year, the army raised two more divisions, the 56th and the 71 mountain divisions, comprising over 30,000 troops to bolster the eastern front's defences.

Army planners built upon the model of Operation Falcon in 1986 when then army chief General Sundarji airlifted an infantry brigade to a face-off with intruding Chinese troops in the Sumdorong Chu valley in Arunachal Pradesh. Under then army chief General N.C. Vij in 2003, the army came up with the Cold Start doctrine for rapid shallow thrusts on the border with Pakistan, and a mountain strike corps that would be raised by the 12th Plan (2012-2017). The corps was fine-tuned by successive army chiefs over the years, but were stonewalled by the UPA, unsettled by its cost and offensive nomenclature. That was until PLA soldiers intruded 19-km deep into eastern Ladakh's Depsang Valley in April-May 2013, triggering a 21-day face-off and setting alarm bells off in South Block. The army seized the opportunity. Then army chief General Bikram Singh personally briefed the cabinet committee on security headed by then prime minister Manmohan Singh to urgently sanction the strike corps to deter Chinese adventurism. The generals shot holes in the Indian navy's scenarios that its submarines could choke China's energy lifelines in the Malacca Straits. The international community would not allow the blockading of such a key global commons, the army reasoned, and the war would be over even before such a blockade could take effect. The army had its way. In July 2013, the UPA cleared the proposal for the corps as part of its plan for 'capability development along the northern borders', a catch-all phrase for enhancement of roads, railways, airfields and communication facilities. The strike corps would be raised over eight years, by 2021, hopefully by when nearly 3,000 km of border roads, sanctioned over a decade ago but being built at a sluggish pace, will finally be completed.

The corps was headquartered in Panagarh, West Bengal, ironically a key Allied airbase during World War II from where 'over the hump' resupply missions were flown into China. The corps headquarters would handle two offensive divisions spread nearly 3,000 km apart. In the event of a conflict with China, these divisions would strike across into Tibet and capture enemy territory in areas lightly held by the PLA; this territory would provide a face-saver and a bargaining chip to be used in post-conflict resolution. The danger, of course, was that it risked enlarging the area of conflict.

Analysts say it would be unreasonable to expect the strike corps to produce viable results in the limited time-frames of a future conflict. This is particularly true since the critical road axis along which the strike corps would advance is yet to be completed. Last year, Parrikar informed the Lok Sabha that only 19 of the 73 strategic road links on the Chinese border had been completed.

With budgetary dangers hovering over the force, analysts call for more prudent measures to deter China. Vice-Admiral Shekhar Sinha (retired) points at a slew of stalled proposals (see box) that would help the armed forces fight jointly. "Only a permanent Chairman Chiefs of Staff will be able to allot resources to tackle threats and prevent single-service solutions to complex threats." Air Vice-Marshal Manmohan Bahadur of the Centre for Air Power Studies calls for making air power an integral part of the solution. "Fighter aircraft, helicopters to swiftly move troops and beef up surveillance capabilities along the border."

Military analyst Colonel Ajay Singh (rtd), author of A Spectrum of Modern Warfare, calls for building up existing capabilities. "Instead of a massive strike corps, it would be better to develop the limited offensive capabilities of the holding corps in both Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh, by the infusion of additional independent infantry and armoured brigades," he says. But with the government yet to clear the air, the strike corps' first battle for survival, it seems, will be on its own soil.

Follow the writer on Twitter @SandeepUnnithan

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Austin » 05 Mar 2016 15:19

On a slow track

Compared to China, India's military reforms are lagging far, far behind.
Sandeep Unnithan
Explaining the impact of China's military reorganisation along India's 4,000-km disputed land boundary, particularly the newly constituted 'West Zone' which merges the erstwhile Lanzhou and Chengdu military regions, an Indian army general explains, "Earlier, there were two military commanders who looked at the border with India. After the reorganisation, there will be only one." Three Indian generals-the Northern, Central and Eastern army commanders-are responsible for protecting the undemarcated boundary with China.

"The newly-created West Zone will facilitate the rapid induction and deployment of high-altitude acclimatised and trained troops into Tibet and across Ladakh," says Jayadeva Ranade, former additional secretary in R&AW and president, Centre for China Analysis and Strategy, New Delhi. The Narendra Modi government has promised to reform India's vast but ageing military machine. In addresses to the combined commanders' conferences in 2014 and, more recently in 2015, the prime minister spoke of retooling the military to fight the wars of the future. But it has not materialised yet. Three futuristic forces-a cyber warfare command, a space command and a special operations command-are pending cabinet approval.

Critical measures like the creation of a Chief of Defence Staff, first recommended by a Group of Ministers in 2001 and later, a Permanent Chairman Chiefs of Staffs Committee (CoSC) by the Naresh Chandra Committee in 2012, are yet to be implemented. A permanent CoSC would spur the services to fight future wars jointly. In the absence of a joint planning and coordination structure, services are left to draw their own war plans and fight for scarce budgetary resources. The responses are usually single-service specific, like the army's newly raised Mountain Strike Corps. The 17 Corps, a strike formation with nearly 90,000 soldiers meant to capture Chinese territory in the event of a border skirmish, was approved in 2013 but is yet to get the budgetary approval of over Rs 64,000 crore. The infrastructure which would allow the army to rush troops and equipment to the border, or allow a strike corps to launch an assault across the border, continues to lag. Barely 600 km of the 3,000 km of critically required border roads identified by a study group over a decade ago, has been completed.

NehraA
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 45
Joined: 08 Sep 2009 16:33

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby NehraA » 08 Mar 2016 08:24

Really depressing to hear something like this coming out. Just goes on to say a lot about the leadership. Unnecessarily getting the org involved in another one of these pajama parties like the 'International Yoga Day'. The culture of sycophancy growing at all levels at in various degrees is compromising on professionalism :(

The Art of Misusing the Indian Army

Apparently, our soldiers have become cheap labour that can be hired out to set up private parties.

There’s been a lot of talk about the army recently, particularly about how our soldiers must be respected because they’re guarding our borders and keeping us safe. I am in full agreement with this sentiment. Our ministers especially have stood up for the rights and honour of our soldiers. As they should.

Someone else who seems to have our ministers’ support is Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, whose Art of Living Foundation is all set to throw a gala celebration event to mark its 35th anniversary. An event that will be attended by 3.5 million people over three days, we are told, including the honourable prime minister of India.

Keep in mind that this is a private event. Not a state or national celebration.

The event, called The World Culture Festival, has already been panned for the large-scale ecological destruction being undertaken in the process of preparing the venue. It is going to be held over 405 hectares of the riverbank, much of which has already been cleared of vegetation and been levelled. The event is going against the National Green Tribunal order of January 2015 putting a stop to all construction activity on the Yamuna’s banks and saying that any such activity would be deemed criminal. But in the world of Sri Sri, these are small matters and obviously no one says no to him.

Also, 650 portable toilets will be set up. No one knows how this waste will be disposed. There will be diesel generators, cars and sound pollution. Manoj Mishra of the Live Yamuna campaign has been quoted as saying that more than 1,000 acres of land have been cleared for the ‘party’ – there really is no other word for it.

Till now, my only and major bone of contention with this event was the imminent environmental damage that will take place and whose effects are likely to last for years. But it seems that the foundation’s Art Of Misusing is not just limited to the environment.

It has now been reported that instead of protecting our borders and people, 120 soldiers have been made to spend over a week building two temporary bridges that will float on the Yamuna river.

I can only conclude that Sri Sri Ravi Shankar and the Ministry Of Defence (which must be in the know of what its soldiers are up to) saw these ads about joining the army.

Released by the Indian Army, starring actual army men, they’re ads that make army life sound wonderful, and the profession sound noble. As of course it is. The problem is that it seems that the government and Sri Sri Ravi Shankar took the ads at face value – especially the first one, which says, “it is India’s best construction company and biggest logistic operator”. Even if the Indian Army has soldiers trained to make bridges, they are not supposed to be daily labourers or labourers of any sort on hire. And they are definitely not supposed to be called in to do odd jobs for private events. Next thing we know, soldiers will be asked to be valets at the World Culture Festival. Because you know, the ad said they know how to drive cars.

Why is the army involved in labour activities such as building a bridge for this event? What justifies them being called in to do so?

The event, which will allow “spiritual and religious leaders, politicians, peacemakers and artists to spread the message of global peace and harmony in diversity”, seems to also spread the message of how to misuse the Indian army. According to an NDTV report, “army sources who asked not to be named confirmed to NDTV that 120 personnel were assigned to build the bridges, and that after expressing reservations about the task, senior officers made it clear that the organizers must accept liability for any accident that injures attendees”.

In fact, these soldiers (and by extension, the army) are being made complicit in the ecological nightmare that is this private event. The committee which has been set up to investigate the potential ecological damage that may be caused as a result, has said that the building of the two pontoons is in direct violation of their order. In fact, the “committee has noted that there is no way to find out whether the debris generated during the construction of the bridges has been dumped into the river”.

Is this what our soldiers are expected to do? One would think that the dismal conditions in which they have to protect our borders are bad enough. Now they have to lug construction material around to build bridges for a spiritual guru’s private celebrations? Forget any politician speaking up about the misuse of the army, the event is going to be inaugurated by Prime Minister Narendra Modi. One would think he would step in and put a stop to this utter misuse of our soldiers.

In India, for all our beating-our-chest adulation for our soldiers, we don’t think twice about asking them to carry out jobs that are not their responsibility. Whether it be pulling a child out of a borewell or being called in to maintain peace and order during riots, it’s all kosher.

Imagine you manage to qualify to enter a military academy, then you spend years training, finally you join the army. Then you’re told that your first call of duty is to build a bridge – not for an army sortie or in a disaster-struck part of the country, but for a yoga and meditation event. To be attended by the very Prime Minister who should be ensuring your job is respected. What could be more demoralising? We should just be pleased that they weren’t called in to make the stage for Baba Ramdev and Shilpa Shetty’s yoga celebration, or for Gautam Adani’s son’s wedding. Keeping with the spirit of the Art Of Living, don’t hold your breath though. It seems anything is possible.

What is worse is that other than for NDTV, nobody else seems to be bothered about this incident. No media has written about it since the news broke. Not one politician or minister tweeted about it or made a statement. These are the very same politicians and ministers who are leaving aside no opportunity to tell us how much we Indians should be indebted to the Indian Army. Could the silence be because if anyone has friends in high places, it is Sri Sri Ravi Shankar? Now that is the true Art of Living.

The author can be reached on Twitter @rajyasree

rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1165
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby rkhanna » 08 Mar 2016 11:11

A very decent breakdown of why the Army Has no more flab to cut.. Articulated a number of times to me in various shapes or forms by my Family members in the forces before


Across the world soldiers on an average carry one third their body weight, the Indian solider far exceeds this, and it has started to impinge on maneuverability," the senior commander said.

The exercise, shared with NDTV, shows a section - 10 men per section - of the infantry now carries with it two Light Machine Guns (LMG) , one Rocket Launcher, besides personal weapons. Each LMG has about 700 rounds on the weapon and another 500 rounds is distributed and carried separately by soldiers of the section.

In all, soldiers in a section carry 1400 rounds of LMG ammunition packed in 34 magazines on them. Besides, four rockets carried with the launcher, the section carries another six rounds on them.

"Apart from this, each solider carries his personal weapon - either an AK-47 or INSAS and ammunition on himself. All these add up to about 40 kg carried by each solider," the commander said.

More importantly, out of 10 soldiers, four are required to man the LMGs and the rocket launchers, leaving six men to carry out an assault.

"The bayonet strength - soldiers available to charge or storm into features - is about six soldiers per section, the bare minimum required to carry out an assault," the commander said.

At the Platoon level or at the Regiment Level, comprising four combat companies - one Support and Logistic Company and Headquarter Company - this ratio gets even more skewed.

Each regiment carries with it battle field surveillance radars, snipers with at least 200 rounds of ammunition, three Multi-Barrel Grenade Launchers (MBGL), three Automatic Grenade Launchers (AGL) and ammunition besides Anti-Tank Guided Missiles (ATGMs). Each infantry unit also carries an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) and heavy communication equipment.

"At the regiment level the manpower crunch is starker and pressure even more severe," the commander said. "Over the years, vehicle drivers for instance have been trained as electricians, or to fire ATGM, man radars, double up as nursing assistant for injuries since number of battlefield nursing attendants have been cut down. Some are trained as mechanics to repair vehicles on the spot," the officer said and added "every infantry unit has been skinned, flab doesn't exist."

Similarly, artillery and mechanised units have been crunched and the number of men in non-combat supply and service arms - like Army Supply Corps, Ordnance - have been cut over the years.

"Unless there is a quantum jump in the fire power and real time surveillance equipment with each unit it is difficult to imagine where the cut down can happen," the commander said


http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/each-soldier-carries-about-40-kg-in-battle-why-the-army-cannot-downsize-1284838

vaibhav.n
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 575
Joined: 23 Mar 2010 21:47

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby vaibhav.n » 08 Mar 2016 15:01

^^
For an infantry section, first line scale is 750 rounds in 25 mags for its LMG. AFAIK, only one LMG is carried per section not two.

The 84mm Carl Gustav is a platoon level weapon in line infantry not section level, though every section carries the extra rocket rounds on a march they drop them at a rally point as they prepare for the assault. However, Mechanised Infantry has 84mm as a section weapon as they follow Russian combined arms tactics.

The assault/rifle group is 7 man strong including the section commander.

Bogus argument

No one is asking for a reduction in the strength of the rifle coys.

There is a whole lot of flab which can be cut with increased mechanisation and reorienting some of the existing infantry divisions in the west against PRC instead of this perpetual new raising of divisions.

Increased firepower cannot not come without reduction in number of divisions.

Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2437
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Manish_P » 08 Mar 2016 15:55

Numbers matter. At least they matter in our corner of the world.

The Indian Army is being used for counter-insurgency, riot control, natural disaster relief operations and what not.. and looking at the way things are going (West Bengal, Kerala,..) those humble, oft-neglected boots on the ground are going to be needed more than ever in the future..

Just a thought - imagine that aberration on our western side collapses sooner or later.. and hordes of those brain-dead nothing to lose abduls and their goats start pouring across our borders in the lakhs.. how are we going to stop them. With Tactical Nukes ?

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Gyan » 08 Mar 2016 17:28

Vaibhav can you comment on Sniper and DMR role/deployment in the Army? Have we started deploying DMR down to Section level?

vaibhav.n
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 575
Joined: 23 Mar 2010 21:47

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby vaibhav.n » 08 Mar 2016 17:55

Manish_P wrote:Numbers matter. At least they matter in our corner of the world.

The Indian Army is being used for counter-insurgency, riot control, natural disaster relief operations and what not.. and looking at the way things are going (West Bengal, Kerala,..) those humble, oft-neglected boots on the ground are going to be needed more than ever in the future..

Just a thought - imagine that aberration on our western side collapses sooner or later.. and hordes of those brain-dead nothing to lose abduls and their goats start pouring across our borders in the lakhs.. how are we going to stop them. With Tactical Nukes ?


How are we concerned if Pakistan collapses.

We have a 1.4 million man IA with close to another million in reserves. Then you have another 1.5 million in CAPF's a fair portion of which would be available if the situation arises, besides one of the heavily fenced and guarded borders in the world.

vaibhav.n
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 575
Joined: 23 Mar 2010 21:47

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby vaibhav.n » 08 Mar 2016 17:59

Gyan wrote:Vaibhav can you comment on Sniper and DMR role/deployment in the Army? Have we started deploying DMR down to Section level?


AFAIK, they are held at the battalion level attached to rifle coys as the need arises.

Role is varied either in a defensive role or to recce enemy positions forward of their own lines.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17050
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Rahul M » 08 Mar 2016 18:09

utterly malicious article from ndtv, clearly someone is concerned that the IA might become leaner and meaner.

the army is not composed entirely of rifle coy's and nothing else. :rolleyes:

the primary mode of cutting flab would be increased mechanization of infantry div's and increased firepower from btn level upwards.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1629
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 08 Mar 2016 20:01

vaibhav.n wrote:^^
For an infantry section, first line scale is 750 rounds in 25 mags for its LMG. AFAIK, only one LMG is carried per section not two.

The 84mm Carl Gustav is a platoon level weapon in line infantry not section level, though every section carries the extra rocket rounds on a march they drop them at a rally point as they prepare for the assault. However, Mechanised Infantry has 84mm as a section weapon as they follow Russian combined arms tactics.

The assault/rifle group is 7 man strong including the section commander.

Bogus argument

No one is asking for a reduction in the strength of the rifle coys.

There is a whole lot of flab which can be cut with increased mechanisation and reorienting some of the existing infantry divisions in the west against PRC instead of this perpetual new raising of divisions.

Increased firepower cannot not come without reduction in number of divisions.


1. It is an excellent thing if firepower has increased with a inf bn so that they can have 2 LMGs and a RL at section level. It comes very useful especially in CI Ops and cross LOC ops to devastate close enemy positions. I don't see this as a negative at all.

2. What is authorised is one thing, what is held is another and what is carried is another that depends entirely on the operation. So on a patrol on the LOC a section will usually carry a RL and perhaps even a MGL. So there is a lot of flexibility. If in ops one company is assaulting and another is giving fire support then heavy weapons will be moved as necessary. A bn is a very close knit family and the most organic unit of the army - weapons and offrs will move as required. I strongly welcome more firepower (and I have some doubts on whether these numbers reflect equiopment held with all inf bns)at bn level and COs will use it as necessary.

3. An inf bn is always harried and has more tasks than troops but then cribs about 'bayonet strength' have always been there. Its sort of cultural in the inf :-)

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17050
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Rahul M » 08 Mar 2016 20:11

mechanization of the infantry would allow many such doodads to be carried on the vehicle itself, freeing the soldiers to carry additional items. :D

anjan
BRFite
Posts: 448
Joined: 08 Jan 2010 02:42

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby anjan » 08 Mar 2016 21:25

This mechanization talk is pointless. I'm not sure we're actually prepared for war under a nuclear overhang at the political level. Till we decide what we want an Army(and armed forces) for, kitting the Army is a blind exercise. This has always been true. A natural consequence of dumping complete non-professionals with zero experience in all the civilian roles in the MoD. Seriously here is the Defense secretary: http://persmin.gov.in/ersheet/MultipleE ... 01OR019400. Look at what he's previously worked on. Do you expect him to suddenly turn up in 2013 and talk national defense strategy? To acquaint the minister with such? Look at DG Aquisition. Actually go down the list and look at all the names and records of all the babus there. We desperately need specialist cadre in all our ministries.

Sid
BRFite
Posts: 1653
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 13:26

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Sid » 08 Mar 2016 22:36

anjan wrote:This mechanization talk is pointless. I'm not sure we're actually prepared for war under a nuclear overhang at the political level. Till we decide what we want an Army(and armed forces) for, kitting the Army is a blind exercise. This has always been true. A natural consequence of dumping complete non-professionals with zero experience in all the civilian roles in the MoD. Seriously here is the Defense secretary: http://persmin.gov.in/ersheet/MultipleE ... 01OR019400. Look at what he's previously worked on. Do you expect him to suddenly turn up in 2013 and talk national defense strategy? To acquaint the minister with such? Look at DG Aquisition. Actually go down the list and look at all the names and records of all the babus there. We desperately need specialist cadre in all our ministries.


Mon-ami, this is the right question. Our real defense posture is still the same as what Ghandi ji used to follow.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17050
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Rahul M » 08 Mar 2016 22:42

the politicos may have been ready for war during parakram but the army, after decades of neglect was not.

what the policy makers agree to would many times be guided by the capabilities.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1851
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby sudeepj » 08 Mar 2016 23:10

Two LMGs per section? I thought we followed the Brit model with 1 LMG per section. Has it changed now to two LMGs?

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3478
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Aditya G » 09 Mar 2016 03:01

^ AFAIK the TOE of infantry bns is not consistent in the army. I think RR Battalions are larger, have more rifle companies and also more loaded with small arms.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: brar_w, kumarn and 71 guests