Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

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tsarkar
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by tsarkar »

Akshay Kapoor wrote:But none of us can seriously doubt that when it comes to using weapons of any kind our political and bureaucratic class shies away. So with dues respect to posts from TSarkar sir I have to say I worry that if we don't have ready and mated warheads with the SFC our babu/neta class might get another excuse to do nothing after a first strike. Aided ably by DDM of course.
You're right Akshay, on the lack of a robust doctrine.

However, mated warheads on 24 x 7 alert with finger on trigger will not alter doctrine. The same political & bureaucratic class may still not order the trigger to be pressed. And they will find excuses.

For example, after the Parliament attack, a group of businessmen headed by N R Narayana Murthy of Infosys met ABV and asked him to de-escalate saying India had suffered from 1998 sanctions and war would not be good for the Indian Economy.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by shiv »

Cross post - the topic is important enough
Singha wrote:If true it's a USA imposed CBM meekly accepted by our mice govts
This is exactly what Brahm Chellaney says. Yes - I did post an article above that suggests that attitudes are changing - but the poison may run deep. When we spent years discussing nukes, later missiles and still later Arihant, we paid scant attention to what was being said in a thousand articles. And rubbishing those articles can make one blind to the reality of a fcked up deterrence posture. Part of that was this rubbish about "recessed deterrence" and demated warheads. The other is what Arun Prakash also mentions in his article . He speaks of how politicos have become philosophical and imagine that nukes are not really for warfighting - they are "just there" to stop wars.

If this is frightening to me, what is even more frightening is the attitude of the general public (that is us) imagining that all is well. Arun Prakash and others have stated time and again that the opacity and vagueness of our doctrine is unacceptable. It could be fatal.

i urge people to take off their blinkers and not comfort themselves saying 'Oh now we have Canisterized missiles - they wil be mated and ready. In fact what tsarkar says in the Arihant thread is spot on. Canisterized missiles may be mated, but not carried on our nuke subs. In fact Adm Prakash refers to this issue when he says in the article
It also presumes that warheads can be safely assembled and transported under conditions of turmoil
We the educated pubic have a duty not to take anything for granted. That Arun Prakash article says it all. He calls for openness. Openness is what we must ask for in discussions such as these and not remain comfortably numb saying "We have bum/our time has cum"
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by SaiK »

^what about the general public accepting whatever AK sahib says about yield? a white listed capability is more secure than a secret hackable and not validated approach.

a trust is earned by validated outcomes. not promissory notes and some gurus vouching it can be done!
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by ldev »

Given below is an excerpt from an article linked by Aditya G a few pages ago on this thread that speaks to the Command and Control challenges in deploying a submarine based nuclear deterrent for India. The key issue seems to be the historical civilian control and custody of India's nuclear deterrent. This policy was doable with a land based deterrent when armed warheads could be handed over at short notice to the military for deployment either via aircraft or missiles. Sending Arihant and other nuclear submarines on deterrence patrol will make a clean break with this historical practice and give the Indian military custody of nuclear weapons. As the article states Indian navy officers have refused to have civilians on board submarines on deterrence patrols (presumably there was some talk about having BARC scientists on board to at very least electronically arm the warhead). What seems to be being portrayed is that civilians want to retain custody of weapons up until they are actually authorized for use i.e PALs would be authorized by civilians not navy personnel. That is at least what the civilian authorities want. How this issue will be resolved or whether it has already been resolved is anybody's guess.

Murky Waters: Naval Nuclear Dynamics in the Indian Ocean
The Command and Control Challenge
Last but not least, the submarine-based leg of the triad will have a major impact on India’s nuclear command-and-control arrangements.53 As Vipin Narang, a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, notes:
Although India’s force disposition and stewardship procedures have evolved over the decades, the key permanent feature of India’s assured retaliation posture is that civilians not only maintain control over India’s nuclear forces, but they maintain custody of it. . . . Thus, in peacetime and even in relatively intense crises, India’s nuclear arsenal is kept under firm civilian control, which minimizes the risk of unintentional use.54
With the advent of canisterized nuclear missiles aboard SSBNs, the issue of warhead mating, which involves Defense Research & Development Organization and Department of Atomic Energy personnel, will “no longer be germane,” according to Arun Prakash. Civilian decisionmakers will be compelled to replace institutional or negative controls with procedural or positive controls.55 In discussions with this author, Indian naval officers frequently reiterated that civilians would not be permitted on an SSBN during deterrent patrols, and that as a result, negative controls would need to be replaced by fail-safe electronic permissive action links.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by nirav »

@ tsarkarji :

You had spoken about IN not following USNs concepts regarding SSN/SSBN ..

Could it not be possible that we dont necessarily follow their 'DEFCON' system. Or for that matter non carriage of N tipped missiles.

Why is it unthinkable for the Indian govt from keeping a few N tipped missiles on the Arihant as part of the assured second strike and the land based warheads, demated.

I understand that air force doesnt carry its missiles on normal training sorties to not eat up its flight time/operational life. To what extent does it apply to Naval missiles like Brahmos,Club,Uran,Styx and Naval SAMs ? Are these not carried to the full extent on normal deployment ?

The air force has publically spoken about its squadron requirement wrt a 2 front war with china and pak.
The nuclear scenario becomes even more dangerous, giving pakis' first use declaration.

Given this real scenario , even if actual carriage at all times causes higher expense of eating up operational life of the missiles, its still an affordable expense. Specially when we will have a princely sum of just 3 confirmed Arihant class for the time being. Arihant on deterrent patrols without nukes makes no sense to me atleast.

The Defcon, early warning and detection strategy is a little worrying. It leaves out the scope and a possibility of a surprise strike.

@ Others : While our Doctrine and stated policy were released post '98, whats to say it hasnt changed at all given changing geo-strat dynamics. They may not have mated all missiles with warheads, but could certainly have mated some and kept ready. Why not and who would say no to it ?

With induction of canisterised long range missiles and sub launched missiles, i would expect a further adjustment to missile warhead mating policy.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by Aditya G »

tsarkar wrote:....
Aditya G wrote:When would Atalji have ordered arming the nukes?
Would Atalji have given the order to fire the missiles if they were on 24 x 7 alert? Even if missiles are on 24 x 7 alert, giving the order will be a leadership prerogative.
....
My point is; having submarine missiles and warheads in demated state will first require a decision to mate them, which will be a political decision and thus another layer of delays, dithering and uncertainity will be introduced.

The proverbial Atalji should have ample time to decide on the button only, and not be swamped by having nukes, missiles and submarines all over the place getting ready for deployment.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by member_22733 »

SaiK wrote:why go ballistic to dabao buttons? multi-factor keys are needed. pm sahibs finger print, retina scan and his secret password part with RSA scheme to open the device. pm sahib can do this all from his pocket dedicated mobile device.

again, this is a pre-launch go ahead signal onree. the afsars on arihant have their code to finish the bijnej.. to stop the launch, he has to enter the same protected device, and send abort launch code. if it is already in mid-course, then an oppty to make it remain dormant orbiting the earth at geo is a possibility. there would be enough fuel to survive 100 years in space, and the nukes don't dissipate that fast.

and who says space-based delivery is impossible? :mrgreen: this technology will not send shibbers to the neighborhood, but big honcho P5 nations as they would feel it might drop on them anytime. so, the deterrence value is huge! they will think billion times before first launch against such mid-course correction tech. yahoo! the noose will tighten on pakis, chips and noko entities with such tech. bring it on!
This is kind of OT and a bit of a ramble (sorry about that). After reading the "Dead Hand" nuclear posture and the above I get the reason why "Emergency Satellite launch using ICBM" is a much touted capability (and one we must have in the near future).

Here is what it can do. The moment a first strike is detected a few ICBMs get launched which carry a large number of MIRV warheads with pre-determined co-ordinates and long duration "timer" upon whose expiry those MIRVs will deploy at the designated targets. The MIRVs can also deploy based on commands from land/sea.

These things will stay in orbit for a while (timer could be say 100 hours) and self-destruct or re-enter in a "safe" manner when a certain command is recieved from its control center.

It gives the vultures incentive not to destroy the c3i which control those orbital MIRVs.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by ramana »

In Op Parakram, the IN ship with Dhanush was already near Karachi. And you can bet it was armed.

I think once its on boat on sea or undersea its mated.


Anyway lets see in a few months.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by shiv »

Aditya G wrote: My point is; having submarine missiles and warheads in demated state will first require a decision to mate them, which will be a political decision and thus another layer of delays, dithering and uncertainity will be introduced.
Absolutely correct, and here is the point I want to make.

On BRF we spent years wondering if nukes worked. then we spent years asking for longer ranged missiles. Then more years asking for solid fuelled missiles which could be canisterized. And then even more years waiting for a nuke sub for a sea-based deterrent.

Even today, if you do a Google search - you will find articles from 1999 right up to 2015 where people, many of them retired armed forces officers, telling us that all this is completely useless if the political set up thinks that nukes are some kind of lucky charm that we just need to possess for others to be deterred. Although some BRF stalwarts (ShauryaT?) I think have been pointing this out for years - our demand on BRF to get the technical side pukka overshadowed our need to accept and swallow the hard reality of a phenomenally stupid nuclear posture. Using nukes is not going to be a one-man decision. They will be used in consultation and if a large number of blinkered decision makers are involved, we will get nuked and not nuke others back. Part of the problem is even we on BRF, who consider ourselves extra aware and extra knowledgeable have tended to assume that once the technical aspects are in place, the decision making chain will work perfectly. That is a serious mistake. Article after article after article has appeared pointing out the the decision making chain is less than robust.

The idea that Arihant will be out on patrol with ready to use nukes is simply something we imagine to be true without spending even ten minutes looking at what the civilian decision making set-up in India thinks of our nuclear doctrine and deterrent posture. Just because canisterized missiles need to be mated does not mean that they will be carried. If they are not loaded at all they are not ready to be used.

I am going to cross post this in the deterrence thread and then post further thoughts which are more relevant there. But I do request BRFites to open their minds and not make assumptions that go contary to what a series of military experts have been pointing out
1. Lack of transparency
2. Lack of plan
3. Mistrust of military - as if they will simply use nukes
4. Cloud cuckoo land posture where possession of demated nukes and unarmed missiles are considered good enough for deterrence

These are all "clear and present" dangers that could result in our getting nuked and we on BRF have no business cheering and walking around with our fingers crossed. And sure enough - we have so many people who are comfortable that al iz vel that I have been attacked by at least one guy who got angry with me for saying things that conflict with the comfortable security feeling he has looking at all the technical advances.. Cognitive dissonance anyone? If this happens on BRF imagine how political decision makers will behave when they are told that they are living in cloud cuckoo land?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by Philip »

Catch an IN SSBN carrying the equiv of a Soviet era "Political Officer" aboard!
From the crop of delivery systems that we have; land-based BMs,silo(?),road and rail,air-launched,ASMs/free-fall bombs (Jags were supposed aeons ago to have practised "toss-bombing",ship-launched (Dhanush) and now from an SSBN ,a credible second-strike capability appears to be the cornerstone of our strat. doctrine.

As Shiv has said,we will first get nuked-then hopefully if there are any authorised N-strike decision-making survivors who can first "agree" to the use of nukes and then identify targets,we may deliver some sort of N-blow against those who first nuked us.Many N-targets will no longer be valid as the enemy would have launched many missiles from his arsenal and attacking empty silos/airbases,naval bases would be futile. The great fear of a second strike is their use against the key cities of the enemy and colossal loss of life.

The survival of the political/executive/military elite is essential (good luck to the people!).We have to,if we haven't already,build N-proof UG command centres fully equipped for a large number of people to operate for sev. months,in every region.Commns will have to be fiber-optic as sats and overground assets would be badly affected in any enemy N-strike. It is amazing that despite the Paki and Chinese N-threat we have never had any civil defence measure exercises.Anti-radiation medicine,etc. should be readily available at such bomb-proof centres for the local populations.Every Tier-1/2 city,esp those with heavy nuclear,defence,scientific establishments, should have an N-centre and the requisite relief measures for the population. There is no point in pussy-footing about such measures. We live in the WMD/NBC age. The people must know of the potential threat and how to respond in an emergency. There is a good market I'm sure for N-survival kits.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by kit »

Just replying to above answer .. if India doesn't? have mega ton city busters of what use is a second strike !?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by SaiK »

when IG made all three services rank as equal, what political power can do was clearly demonstrated. now it is beside the point of history and decisions made that we have to look at what were the motivations for such? under the internal influence or external? nearby or far? cold or hot?

our political button is much more expensive to maintain than military. we have also seen the trait that many who have taken the prime seat, has gone silent on many issues. there are more secret files out there than in the public domain discussions.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by tsarkar »

The only authoritative information on India's nuclear doctrine I am aware of is this press release from PMO. My comments in blue

http://pib.nic.in/archieve/lreleng/lyr2 ... 20033.html
4th January, 2003

Prime Minister's Office

CABINET COMMITTEE ON SECURITY REVIEWS PROGRESS IN OPERATIONALIZING INDIA’S NUCLEAR DOCTRINE

The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) met today to review the progress in operationaizing of India’s nuclear doctrine. The Committee decided that the following information, regarding the nuclear doctrine and operational arrangements governing India’s nuclear assets, should be shared with the public.

2. India’s nuclear doctrine can be summarized as follows:

i.Building and maintaining a credible minimum deterrent;

ii.A posture of "No First Use" nuclear weapons will only be used in retaliation against a nuclear attack on Indian territory or on Indian forces anywhere;

this covers tac nuke threat from Pakistan on IBGs in Pakistani territory or high seas

iii.Nuclear retaliation to a first strike will be massive and designed to inflict unacceptable damage.

Nowhere does it say prompt

iv.Nuclear retaliatory attacks can only be authorised by the civilian political leadership through the Nuclear Command Authority.

v.Non-use of nuclear weapons against non-nuclear weapon states;

vi.However, in the event of a major attack against India, or Indian forces anywhere, by biological or chemical weapons, India will retain the option of retaliating with nuclear weapons;

this covers NBC threat from Pakistan on IBGs in Pakistani territory or high seas

vii.A continuance of strict controls on export of nuclear and missile related materials and technologies, participation in the Fissile Material Cutoff Treaty negotiations, and continued observance of the moratorium on nuclear tests.

viii.Continued commitment to the goal of a nuclear weapon free world, through global, verifiable and non-discriminatory nuclear disarmament.

3. The Nuclear Command Authority comprises a Political Council and an Executive Council. The Political Council is chaired by the Prime Minister. It is the sole body which can authorize the use of nuclear weapons.

4 The Executive Council is chaired by the National Security Advisor. It provides inputs for decision making by the Nuclear Command Authority and executes the directives given to it by the Political Council.

No military involvement in decision making

5. The CCS reviewed the existing command and control structures, the state of readiness, the targetting strategy for a retaliatory attack, and operating procedures for various stages of alert and launch. The Committee expressed satisfaction with the overall preparedness. The CCS approved the appointment of a Commander-in-Chief, Strategic Forces Command, to manage and administer all Strategic Forces.

To answer Nirav, we do not use US DEFCON but have our own "operating procedures for various stages of alert and launch." We also have established C2, targeting and "state of readiness"

6. The CCS also reviewed and approved the arrangements for alternate chains of command for retaliatory nuclear strikes in all eventualities.

To answer Nirav, Lokesh, Supratik etc, who're worried about decapitating first strikes
Last edited by tsarkar on 09 Mar 2016 19:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by tsarkar »

Personally I am opposed to prompt for the following reasons

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Arkhipov

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_rocket_incident

False alert rejection and Identification of Friend or Foe is extremely poor even today, despite all advances in technology

http://articles.latimes.com/2003/apr/21 ... -patriot21
The first friendly-fire incident occurred March 23, when a British Tornado GR4 fighter-bomber was shot down by a Patriot battery protecting an airfield in northern Kuwait. Flight Lts. Kevin Barry Main and David Rhys Williams were killed.

A week and a half later, according to Central Command spokesman Lt. Herb Josey, a U.S. Navy F/A-18C Hornet was shot down by a Patriot missile over central Iraq, killing the pilot, Lt. Nathan D. White.

On March 24, a Patriot battery locked its radar on a U.S. Air Force F-16 Falcon in preparation for firing a missile. The plane's pilot, flying about 30 miles south of the Iraqi city of Najaf, averted disaster by firing first, disabling the battery with a radar-seeking missile. No U.S. soldiers were injured in the incident.

"The F-16 pilot probably knew he was being painted by a ground surface-to-air missile radar, but he may not have known it was a Patriot. He may have thought it was an Iraqi SAM," Coyle said. "The F-16 pilot did the right thing."

Experts said that such friendly-fire episodes stem from the long-range, split-second nature of modern war. A compounding factor is the enormous complexity of the Patriot system, which makes it vulnerable to mechanical, computer and human error.
This is also the reason why Israeli Navy ship Hanit shut down its automatic Barak system to avoid shooting down own aircraft whose IFF transponders may be pointed in other direction, or aircraft whose IFF response may be lost in transmission, or aircraft with non-functioning IFF. Hence the Hanit could not respond to Hezbollah C-802 missile.

Keeping fissile materials separate (unless on some "stage of alert") is useful because of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961_Goldsboro_B-52_crash

The first bomb
In 2013, information released as a result of a Freedom of Information Act request confirmed a single switch out of Four (not six) prevented detonation.
The second bomb
In 2013, ReVelle recalled the moment the second bomb's switch was found. “Until my death I will never forget hearing my sergeant say, 'Lieutenant, we found the arm/safe switch.' And I said, 'Great.' He said, 'Not great. It’s on arm.'”
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by Singha »

well unlike a unknown ac with no IFF flying around, the reality of a n-strike on indian soil is hardly going to be shrouded in mystery.

while the politicians make a decision about the launch on impact thing, it pays to have the sticks already warmed up and ready to go.

our policy is launch on impact rather than on warning as we have no means like huge OTH radars or RORSATs/EO sats to remotely detect all the heat plumes of BM launches
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by arshyam »

Don't want to distract the excellent discussion, so will simply post a snippet as it is a relevant data point.

EXPRESS EXCLUSIVE: India Test Fires Nuke Capable SLBM K-4 Secretly - H K Rout, New Indian Exp
India has reportedly conducted a test of its home grown intermediate range Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile (SLBM) K-4 secretly from an undersea platform in the Bay of Bengal in a bid to boost its deterrence capability by strengthening the second strike fire power.

Even as the authorities of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) are tightlipped about the secret test, a reliable defence source on Tuesday confirmed ‘The Express’ that this nuclear capable missile was fired from a submerged pontoon positioned nearly 30 feet deep sea offshore Vizag coast on Monday.

Launched underwater, the missile developed indigenously by the DRDO, surged to the surface leaving behind a ribbon of thick smokes. Although the result of the test was not known, the source claimed it’s take off was smooth as a powerful gas generator successfully ejected it from the pontoon.
...
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by SaiK »

Singha wrote:well unlike a unknown ac with no IFF flying around, the reality of a n-strike on indian soil is hardly going to be shrouded in mystery.

while the politicians make a decision about the launch on impact thing, it pays to have the sticks already warmed up and ready to go.

our policy is launch on impact rather than on warning as we have no means like huge OTH radars or RORSATs/EO sats to remotely detect all the heat plumes of BM launches
impact as in physical contact of mijjile on Indic land mass or impact on lives lost, infrastructure destroyed, etc.. you know how it can get politically dirty, and how our MSM debates to take every anti-national route possible.

we need qualifiers right on the policies to prevent dirty politics.

I'd define impact as having crossed LOC/intl boundaries/in range and on course. PERIOD. The counter attack/ABD expenses are part of the well-defined-impact (a missile approach will cause million suicides must not be ignored) and billed on the enemy who is attacking us. deterrence++
-------
ps: well, any mid-course countering is in neither countries territory /zone. so no policies apply or anything is ok for impact definition.
Last edited by SaiK on 09 Mar 2016 21:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by Singha »

will hardly make any diff, 10 mins at most and I meant actual explosion in india, not something coming across with unknown nature of payload.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by member_22733 »

I believe, in order to detect the above you need sattelites that calculate trajectory of the RV (where it came from) and also see if there was a gamma ray flash at the point of re-entry.


Only then would you know if there was a nuke strike.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by SaiK »

we can't just go by the sound saar.. some radar must validate that it came from an enemy land to do the 2nd strike. no? otherwise, we are doing MAD
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by Cosmo_R »

Singha wrote:there is a less wacky movie named "fail safe"(1964). worth a watch imo. a grizzled old vietnam era vet lent me the B&W video unasked when he found out I was interested in mil stuff.

a troop of US B36 type bombers with live warheads were in one era always kept flying in the sky for a instant "go" decision and target list already handed out. one such unit receives a garbled go order, and despite some doubt decides to press on to bomb the USSR, attempts to recall them are rebuffed as fake deception attempts by the pilots.....I wont spoil the ending
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmw91o4OAfA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fail_Safe_(1964_film) <=== spoiler alert

the same premise of a garbled "go" order and its interpretation is the story in crimson tide.

our planners and society will also have to deal with these questions soon.
I saw the movie in its time. Amazing ending. But here's the alternate 'happy' ending.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ToOVstAnU
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by member_29190 »

ramana wrote:In Op Parakram, the IN ship with Dhanush was already near Karachi. And you can bet it was armed.

I think once its on boat on sea or undersea its mated.


Anyway lets see in a few months.
in 2010 IN Chief specifically says this


http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ins- ... 21885.html
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by sanjaykumar »

I recall reading a novel of the same name.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by Aditya G »

Reposting some of my thoughts on the subject:
Aditya G wrote:
Karan M wrote:...If you think weak leaders detract from it, then elect strong ones. That's it. That's all we can do.

MMS etc making strong statements and turning other cheek on border firing, on being pro-Pak, as versus Modi speaking little but giving Pakistan a proper slap as required.

I'd say the "signalling" is then fairly obvious.
This is not about Modi or MMS per se. There could be a UPA or Mahaghatbandhan sarkar after 4 years. We all know that there are varying sorts of opinions in the GoI establishment, and given the committee type decision making system there is a chance that the Prime Minister may be advised against Massive Retaliation (MR), and hence may not press ahead with it.

Secondly, aggressive border response may not be adequate indicator of the leadership's position on nuclear matters, for simply the scale and responsibility attached to nuclear bombing are vastly different. I am sure Modi has a view, but on this matter he will need to collate it with technical and professional views of all stakeholders in the government.

Lastly, given the nature of the subject, even written doctrines may be found as open to interpretation. Take this gent's opinion for example... there may be others in the establishment with the same opinion:

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 168042.ece
...

One clause currently in the Doctrine merits some revision. It states that “ ....[our] nuclear weapons will only be used in retaliation against a nuclear attack on Indian territory or on Indian forces anywhere...retaliation to a first strike will be massive.” Now, threatening retaliation “against a nuclear attack on Indian territory” is one matter. It is the basic component of nuclear deterrence and should apply whether the attack on our territory is small or big, as long as it is nuclear.

But adding on the phrase “or on Indian forces anywhere” is a different matter. The rationale behind it was presumably to deter a nuclear attack on our forces should they enter alien territory or the high seas in combat. Such an eventuality is not implausible after Pakistan developed the Nasr — a nuclear capable battlefield missile which could be used on Indian forces if they march deep into Pakistani territory. However, threatening retaliation against that with a massive nuclear attack from our side can boomerang on our credibility. Pakistan’s battlefield nuclear attack is likely to be small (by nuclear standards). They would not want to spread much radioactivity on their own soil. It is also unclear whether they can develop a sufficiently miniaturised warhead to fit the Nasr, and how much damage such a warhead could do. It may achieve at most a few hundred fatalities. This is still a terrible loss of Indian soldiers and armoury. But it would be far from being “mass destruction.”

However, such a battlefield nuclear attack will place India in a dilemma. Having threatened in our Doctrine to inflict a “massive” nuclear retaliation, can we really go ahead and kill lakhs of their civilians in response to a much smaller attack, that too on their own soil? It would be a disproportionate response, which would go against our national sensibilities and attract widespread criticism from around the world. Surely, there are more proportionate non-nuclear ways of inflicting punitive retaliation.

Yet, if we do not counter attack after having threatened to do so, that would invite derision that we are “a soft state” incapable of hard nuclear decisions and would erode the credibility of our future deterrence, not only against Pakistan, but also against China.

It may therefore be better to limit massive nuclear retaliation only against nuclear attacks on our country and say nothing in the Doctrine, one way or the other, about attacks “on Indian forces anywhere.” Should the latter take place, we always have the option of some appropriate, measured retaliation.

...

(R. Rajaraman is professor emeritus, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi.)
Aditya G wrote:This piece by Raja Mohan is relevant to the debate. perhaps article by Shyam Saran is in response to this.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/a ... 602609.ece
India intends to deter nuclear use by Pakistan while Pakistan’s nuclear weapons are meant to compensate for conventional arms asymmetry.

Manufacturing a nuclear weapon does not, as a senior Indian Minister in 1998 claimed, create credible deterrence. Deterrence is entirely a matter of perceptions, a mental effect that is created on the adversary that nuclear use will entail assured retaliatory holocaust. The possibility of nuclear use is thereby pre-empted. The Indian nuclear doctrine, in that sense, is well articulated — on paper. Since 1998, more than 15 years have passed and in the Indian sub-continent, nuclear arsenals have grown far beyond the small nuclear ambitions that were articulated then. Yet there is an increasing fund of world literature being published, pointing to structural and operational weaknesses in the Indian nuclear arsenal. The question is not whether India has built enough nuclear bombs. Hardly anyone questions this basic fact, but the ideational systems that will ensure the ‘massive’ retaliation promised in the doctrine are being increasingly questioned by scholars and analysts worldwide. Pakistani observers cannot help but be swayed and dangerously influenced by such literature, thereby inducing them to think the unthinkable. What does not help in encouraging sober thinking is the fact that since the end of the Second World War, South Asia has seen the largest number of shooting wars in the world. So the questions of nuclear use will not arise in the quiet peace of neighbourly relations, but in the stress of combat over the Line of Control or the international border.

The 1998 test

Critics of the credibility of India’s nuclear arsenal begin with their doubts on the success of the thermo-nuclear test of 1998, which they claim was a ‘fizzle.’ There has been much toing-and-froing in technical journals, of the veracity, accuracy and interpretation of seismic readings. There has also been an occasional closed door briefing by select bomb makers — but surprisingly there has not been, to date, a clear unambiguous public statement from the right source about the country’s thermo-nuclear capacity being fielded in India’s nuclear arsenal. This is a matter of some negligence, considering that the only members of the scientific community who have spoken on this issue are deeply sceptical of the success of the thermo-nuclear test.

The command and control of nuclear forces are another area of criticism, and not surprisingly so, since India is the only nuclear weapon country without a Chief of Defence Staff to act as the interface between the Prime Minister, the National Command Authority and the military who ‘own’ the weapons — at least most of it. In the guise of safety, India’s nuclear weapons are not only ‘de-mated’ and the core and ignition device separated from the warhead, but the separate components are under different departmental control. The actual reason for this bizarre arrangement is quite obvious. There is a petty turf war, and neither the Department of Atomic Energy nor the DRDO is willing to let go of the controlling part of the bomb, even if it means a cumbersome and unnecessary loss of control. Needless to say, between the military, the DAE and the DRDO, none of them has any hierarchical control over the other two.

Other critics have written to say that having opted for road or rail mobile launching arrangements, India does not have the robust transport, road and rail infrastructure to move the missiles, warheads and cores from safe storage to launch hideouts and dispersal points with confidence and alacrity.

These weaknesses have led to critics stating that India’s nuclear capability is disaggregated and with weak institutional features. In the case of China, it is conceded that India feels more threatened by Chinese nuclear delivery than vice-versa. Yet, in the absence of the Agni long-range missiles, it is vaguely surmised that the Indian retaliatory capacity is based on air delivery weapons, which could mean anything — Mirages, Jaguars, Su 30s. The absence of the CDS results in even knowledgeable Indians conjecturing that the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) will completely bypass the military chain of command and operate directly under the PMO. This, of course, raises other more serious problems.

In the case of deterrence with Pakistan, it is accepted that the doctrines of the two countries are mismatched. India intends to deter nuclear use by Pakistan while Pakistan’s nuclear weapons are meant to compensate for conventional arms asymmetry. At the same time, Pakistan relies on 20,000 LeT cadres as an extension of its armed forces to create terror strikes, to which the Indian answer is to punish the Pakistani state with conventional war. Thus arises the vague and elastic concept of a nuclear threshold. Yet, the Indian National Command Authority is ill designed to manage the inevitable South Asian transition from conventional war to a possible nuclear exchange — or the frantic strategic signalling that is bound to occur as the threshold approaches.

If, for instance, the threshold was to materialise as a result of an armoured incursion, the Indian NCA by its location, composition and infrastructure would be entirely unaware of the impending catastrophe. Hanging untethered to any commanding authority, civilian or military, would be the Integrated Defence Staff, a well-staffed organisation designed for the civilian-military interface, but currently without a head, nor with any links to the SFC.

After much persuasion, there now exists a skeleton nuclear staff under the NSA, normally headed by the retired SFC. But while its Pakistani counterpart, the Strategic Plans Division (SPD), is highly active both on the domestic and international conference circuit, its Indian counterpart seems to be totally tongue tied, non-participatory and holed up at its desk. Foreign critics have noted the introduction of battlefield nuclear weapons in Pakistan’s arsenal and raised doubts of the likelihood of ‘massive’ retaliation in response to a small ‘warning’ shot by Islamabad. This is what the Indian doctrine promises. Life for the leaders of the strategic community would be easy if a doctrine, once written on paper, could be left unchanged for decades without reinforcement, to prove its validity.

That unfortunately is not the case in a dynamic field where the stakes are the survival of nations. Even K. Subramanyam had warned that ‘massive’ retaliation was an outmoded concept and difficult to enforce without periodic reinforcement.
So this article is inspired not because India is not continuing to arm itself with bombs and missiles. This piece is inspired by the increasing clamour in international literature that India’s penchant for secrecy is ill-suited to conveying the stabilising threat of nuclear deterrence. Against China where our capabilities are undeveloped, a certain amount of ambiguity is sensible, but against a country which is openly wedded to first use, and is introducing battlefield weapons, an untended 10-year-old piece of paper is inadequate.

Signalling, overdue
Something needs to be done to reassure both the domestic and international audience that with high pressure terrorism lurking across the border, it is not just India’s strategic restraint that will keep the peace — as it did after Mumbai and the attack on Parliament. Nuclear signalling from the Indian government is hugely overdue, so much so that it will take some effort to restore stability to South Asian deterrence. The first target should be the Indian strategic community and there are enough discussions and conferences where officers from the SFC and nuclear staff could provide discrete assurances that things are not anarchic with India’s nuclear command and control.

The strategic community in turn will carry the message abroad or to foreign observers that in the face of Indian official silence, they need not imagine the worst. The establishment needs to do more than arrogantly refer to the doctrine as being the sole answer to all questions. In deterrence, only perceptions matter and there is a disturbing build-up of literature indicating that the disbelief of others in our nuclear command and control is in urgent need of correction.

(Raja Menon is a strategic analyst)
https://shashankjoshi.wordpress.com/201 ... -doctrine/
India’s Lt Gen. B.S. Nagal (retd) served as India’s Strategic Forces Commander (2008-2010) and, after his retirement, as head of a nuclear cell within the Indian Prime Minister’s Office that reportedly sought to mimic Pakistan’s nuclear secretariat, the SPD.

In the June edition of India’s Force magazine, he has written a fascinating and somewhat critical essay on India’s nuclear weapons titled ‘Checks and Balances’. His comments are noteworthy both because of the positions he has held – he’s sat at the pinnacle of the civilian and military institutions than deal with Indian nuclear weapons

....

At times doubts are raised over the strategy of MR. Reasons to doubt its applicability are:

1 Gradual escalation/ quid pro quo will prevent large scale nuclear damage and is a pragmatic option;

2 Response to a few or one tactical nuclear weapon (TNW) should not be disproportionate which could result in an all-out nuclear war;

3; Escalation control should be practiced in conventional and nuclear war on moral and humanitarian considerations …

4. The strategy is not rational, our political leadership may not show resolve during crisis or at the time of decision.

[But] MR is the declared policy, and must be implemented. The nation has placed faith in political leadership and the leadership is expected to fulfil their responsibility. In case we vacillate on the issue or raise doubts about our commitment to the policy, we will send wrong signals to our adversary(s).


...

A more proactive public communication will help reassure the public, and it should be practiced in the future, especially when we are committed to NFU. A unique feature of nuclear deterrent signalling has been the role of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) scientists in speaking on strategy, development and employment philosophy. The statements by the scientists also prematurely release information on delivery systems, which later become embarrassing when time lines are overshot/ delayed. A deliberate and well-thought out nuclear signalling policy should be put in place to communicate with the nation and send the desired message to the adversary(s). The political leadership must speak on select occasions on India’s nuclear policy to display the resolve and credibility without conveying an aggressive posture. An open paper on national security including nuclear policy should be issued periodically. This will invite debate and suggestions and enrich the policy.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by nirav »

The policy of MR is perfect,imho.


Gen Padmanabhan has rightly conveyed it in 2002 - "the perpetrator of that particular outrage shall be punished so severely that their continuation thereafter in any form of fray will be doubtful."

He reiterated the MR policy in case of an attack on Indian forces anywhere .
"While he reiterated India's commitment not to use nuclear weapons first, he said that if Pakistan -- which has made no such commitment -- struck Indian armed forces, ships at sea or economic or human targets, it would pay heavily. "

Now a lot of 'strategic' analysts have come up with Paki TNW being some sort of acceptable weapon to be used on invading Indian forces on Paki land.

it is NOT acceptable. A nuke is a nuke. And its not just a few tanks/soldiers/arty pieces/APCs they will be nuking. Its the Indian Army !

Pakis would have done something real terrible which caused India to launch an all out war. A war so punishing that Pakis have to actually nuke our forces to stop them from violating Paki army thoroughly.

But then, when Pakis initiate crossing of Indias conventional threshold causing the war, then launch nukes on our forces further crossing our nuclear threshold, why do qtiya analysts suggest humanitarian grounds and other balderdash to measure a structured response. Which anyway will end up in a full blown exchange. For ex, if structured response to a Paki TNW on Indian forces in Paki land is nuking only Paki army. The point is, Paki nukes are *not* for Paki aam abduls. They are for the Paki Army only. If Jihadi Paki armys survival is threatened, does anyone think for a second they wont let loose all their korean/chinese mijjiles on dushmann India ?

Will the haramis understand structured nuclear response ?

The concept of MR must be reiterated by desh at the highest levels. The fear of god and death should be made known to Paki army in very clear terms.The assurance of a maa cho deb to Pakis,if need be,must be LOUD and CLEAR.

Graduating responses and other sensible stuff only gives an open license for harami jihadis to do gandoo giri and keep doing it. No need for that.

For guys wondering about the media anti India blah blah post a first strike on India, bliss to remember, most of the secular media,Kejriwal,(JNU too) and Parliament are in Delhi. Pakis being Pakis will certainly target Delhi and Mumbai.

With Delhi gone, the mutts and turds will shut up for good.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by ramana »

Shyam Saran also restated it as head of NASB a few years back and caused massive takleef in TSP as they didn't think it was fair to MR if they let off a small yield weapon on Indian forces inside TSP. And they had massive support from US think tankers and Indian fellow travelers.

That JNU prof is famous Prof emeritus in Physics and is a peacenik who doubts India all the time.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by disha »

So as I understand in a nutshell, the nuclear doctrine including Massive Retaliation is purposefully vague so that the red lines are not tested by the baki armies and their western gadflies on one hand and on the other hand keep the chipanda guessing?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by SaiK »

massive retaliation against tactical nukes does not lose credibility. what is the JNU author talking/thinking? Is this like I can't use a gun for a knife analogy?

fundamentally, we have problems in respecting single indian's life is as good as 1.2 billion, depending on the type of attack. if they use nukes, period. there is the first strike. it is part of the doctrine., and can be interpreted in any language they want - urdu, chinese mandarin or arabic.

it is not vague, but very clear. what is vague is detection system and the delta time is small or large for retaliation. depending on this, we have to invest how to keep our nukes hot-ready or demated.
Last edited by SaiK on 10 Mar 2016 06:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by krishna_krishna »

+1 Exactly, We have "Massive Retaliation" declared policy from its inception. Contrary to doubts some members are trying to claim using their d.c. fish tank Analyst friends as subject matter experts, Including that sold Brahma Challa nahi.

We have capability now that we always desired to complete all the forms (sea, air, land) with canisterized mirv'd agni family and k-series submarine launched fully mated maal to mijjiles.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by shiv »

Interesting commonality of thought. Every one of the three gentlemen I have quoted below are demanding pretty much the same thing. But no government has done it yet. The opacity and vagueness need not be reassuring. It could mean confusion, indecision and internal disagreements. I believe that we cannot keep on assuming that everything is fine unless the government gets its act together. All three people quoted below cannot be dismissed as peaceniks or lefties. This is the reason for me to push ahead with this discussion
1. Raja Mohan Adm Raja Menon (Aditya G please note)
Nuclear signalling from the Indian government is hugely overdue, so much so that it will take some effort to restore stability to South Asian deterrence. The first target should be the Indian strategic community and there are enough discussions and conferences where officers from the SFC and nuclear staff could provide discrete assurances that things are not anarchic with India’s nuclear command and control.
2. Gen Nagal
A deliberate and well-thought out nuclear signalling policy should be put in place to communicate with the nation and send the desired message to the adversary(s). The political leadership must speak on select occasions on India’s nuclear policy to display the resolve and credibility without conveying an aggressive posture. An open paper on national security including nuclear policy should be issued periodically. This will invite debate and suggestions and enrich the policy.
3. Admiral Arun Prakash:
The time is, perhaps, ripe for a nuclear ‘glasnost’
in India, whereby the cloak of needless opacity
around the nuclear deterrent is lifted and as
much unclassified information as possible about
our nuclear capabilities made available to the
tax-paying public. This would achieve three
objectives. Firstly, it would convey reassurance
to Indians that they are well protected by an
effective nuclear deterrent which will obviate
adventurism on the part of nuclear-armed
adversaries. Secondly, it would send a clear
message to Pakistan that brandishing tactical
nuclear weapons is a dangerous ploy, discredited
and discarded by the nuclear powers during the
Cold War. Lastly, transparency, accompanied
by sustained dialogue and confidence-building
measures, would convince Pakistan of the need
for stable deterrence on the sub-continent and
lead to a substantive reduction in tension
Last edited by shiv on 10 Mar 2016 06:52, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by SaiK »

doubting our capability is fine.. and that is part and parcel of our politics which also drives some benefits per se.. but doubting the doctrine is sheer madness. there is no doubt in anyone's mind about that..

it is all about giving them a bit leeway to do paid-media-services, they will trash even shakti-2 yields as is as dud joining the western bandwagon instead of studying the designs... and supporting a deterrence solution.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by shaun »

How much have our C&C evolved in the realm of "bum" use ?? there is chain of command with SFC and NCA being the main players , the babus and netas which constitute the "political class" needs inputs from "executive class" ie NSA , he too being civvy dilutes the decision making process. when the SFC command gets the go ahead from NCA ,the CJSOC along with DAE and DRDO mates the warhead with air and missile-delivery platforms held by the three armed forces.

But the problem is, the CJSOC position now goes to the senior-most of the three service chiefs, leading to changes in just a few months sometimes. We need CDS who along with NSA constitute the Executive council advising the netas . CDS can also be of immense help to SFC as they will have eyes and ears in the decision making process.

Nuclear weapons have immense deterrent values , but it can also be used strategically to end a war. The present decision making process is all with the netas and babus, military only being the executioners. We know the nexus between these babus and netas , how they work with inflated egos and turf wars which resulted in 1962. CDS is the need of the hour , it will iron out many issues.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by shiv »

Aditya G wrote:This piece by Raja Mohan is relevant to the debate. perhaps article by Shyam Saran is in response to this.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/a ... 602609.ece

Aditya it is not Raja Mohan, it's Rear Adm Raja Menon - a bigger heavyweight than Raja Mohan. And he said in 2014 in the article linked above:
The command and control of nuclear forces are another area of criticism, and not surprisingly so, since India is the only nuclear weapon country without a Chief of Defence Staff to act as the interface between the Prime Minister, the National Command Authority and the military who ‘own’ the weapons — at least most of it. In the guise of safety, India’s nuclear weapons are not only ‘de-mated’ and the core and ignition device separated from the warhead, but the separate components are under different departmental control. The actual reason for this bizarre arrangement is quite obvious. There is a petty turf war, and neither the Department of Atomic Energy nor the DRDO is willing to let go of the controlling part of the bomb, even if it means a cumbersome and unnecessary loss of control. Needless to say, between the military, the DAE and the DRDO, none of them has any hierarchical control over the other two.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by shaun »

^^^^
I just now have mentioned the same :)
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by shiv »

Shaun wrote:^^^^
I just now have mentioned the same :)
True and I have cross posted your post in the deterrence thread where it is appropriate
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by Aditya G »

disha wrote:So as I understand in a nutshell, the nuclear doctrine including Massive Retaliation is purposefully vague so that the red lines are not tested by the baki armies and their western gadflies on one hand and on the other hand keep the chipanda guessing?
Why do you say they are vague? To begin with we at least have a published doctrine. All we have from pakis is a statement by Kidwai on their redlines which we dont even know are official.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by member_28108 »

One thing everyone is forgetting here is how can a policy be made with something that did not exist at that time. We did not have a nuclear submarine capable of launching nuclear weapons. So an SOP will be derived when we have of.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by adityadange »

The policymakers knew they are going to build triad and must have considered implications with undersea leg of it.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by member_28108 »

^ which would never be released into public domain.
RKumar

Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Post by RKumar »

+1 we dont have to explain our thinking to anyone.

Did china explained why they nuclear armed deeper then sea friends?
Or did US explained why they nuclear armed UK or turkey?

Let actions speak ... till then keep ppl guessing what Arihant class will carry. Who needs to know, knows it.
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