Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
anjan
BRFite
Posts: 448
Joined: 08 Jan 2010 02:42

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby anjan » 09 Mar 2016 03:24

Rahul M wrote:the politicos may have been ready for war during parakram but the army, after decades of neglect was not.

what the policy makers agree to would many times be guided by the capabilities.
That's putting the cart before the horse. How can you blame the Army for not being prepared if you can't enunciate what you want to prepare for? You said mechanize. Mechanize and do what? Where do you intend to fight? Are we intending to fight wars short of nuclear war? Will we fight a full NBC war? Do we fight a short nuclear war? "Capabilities not intent" is how you judge an adversaries forces not your own. Capabilities must be dictated by intent. The Army is a tool and it must be shaped to do the things you want to do. You can't say do whatever in peace time and in war say "ooh but I wanted a spanner not a hammer".

What happens to the current tasking of units you want to mechanize? If you want to the Army to do conventional warfare the right way is to relieve it of all other tasks. For that you need to beef up internal security forces so they can replace Army units. Mind you you can figure out the some of these and reorient the Army and still not really help the budget. CI/defending active boundaries requires a certain ration of troops to popln and area. Ultimately whether Army or CPMF, they must exist if you want to hold territory in our current pattern. All you might achieve is moving it from MoD to Home Ministry expenses.

None of these are intractable problems but they do require sustained thought and expertise. Instead we have Def Secy who last worked on water management. Following another discussion on the canisterization of missiles versus physical warhead seperation, it would not surprise me at all if the canisterization was just an independent siloed activity with no direction. It would very much be in keeping with the security strategy of our country or the apparent absence of one.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1629
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 09 Mar 2016 18:51

Rahul,

Just becuase we have more firepower in terms on GLs, RLs etc in a bn does not mean we need mechanisation to carry the weapons. Ultimately troops will have to dismount and carry the weapons themselves whether they are moving in a BMP or a MT truck. And what will mech do in High altitude and mountainous areas ? There are eough vehicles authorized to an inf bn to carry its equipment. Its not an issue.

Firepower is good. More the better at all levels - bn - corps.

What we need to do is :

1. Add more firepower at all levels via better assault rifles (with night vision scopes, and 30 round mags), a better man portable MG that can fire belt ammunition rather than the 30 round mags we use now, lighter and more versatile Rocket Launchers if possible, better rocket ammunition, MUCH MORE ARTY, more Pinaka 2, Smerch or equivalent, Prahaar and a 45 sqdn IAF.

Above all we need NVGs. This itself can have huge benefits.

2. Impose costs on Pak so that we can stop them tying us down in J&K. That is a big commitment for us.

3. If we can achieve 2 then we can reduce the army 20%.

4. If we cannot achieve 2 but we achieve 1 then we can still create a Mountain Strike Corps without any new raisings. 1 div has already been raised. 21 Corps can be cannibalized for the other 2.

But all this will still need money. So to reduce size of the army in the long run we will need significant investments now. With dear friends China and Pak around us we just have to spend much more on on our military. Plain and simple. Minimum 3% of GDP is essential.

We will also have to do a massive infra build up in the North East which we still haven't done.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1629
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 09 Mar 2016 18:58

Rahul M wrote:the politicos may have been ready for war during parakram but the army, after decades of neglect was not.

what the policy makers agree to would many times be guided by the capabilities.



That's not true Rahul. There was no appetite in the political leadership for war. The army at least was absolutely ready to go to war - unprepared and with gross deficiencies for sure but they were ready and had strongly recommended it. And that's how army had been asked to deploy. Lt Gen Kapil Vij GOC 2 Corps had moved his formations to their launching points in accordance with directives from AHQ. And then the US intervened and this brilliant officer was removed from command - his sin - carrying out his professional duties to the best of his abilities.

The rank and file was saying - lets finish this once for and all. We know that we will suffer 25 % casualties but lets just sarp vinash once for and all. They kept saying this for years after that. Even AMC docs were feeling let down.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1629
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 09 Mar 2016 19:02

Pak was also weak and facing huge isuues like ammo shortages. Now 15 years later they have built up thanks to US aid and we have become weaker and more hollow. IAF also had a big advantage on Pak and all that has gone now.

We squandered that opportunity saying lets build capability and id f$$$@ all for 15 years.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 09 Mar 2016 22:54

Rare pic of IA troops setting up a claymore.

Image

This pic is amazing for so many reasons. Showcases our diversity and general populations interest in the forces (as versus the media and leftist twits agitating against military 24/7)
Image

Desi ghillie suits
Image

Rare pic of Grenade launcher being used with the pop up sight
Image

So Tavors can be used when in water as well
Image

rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1165
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby rkhanna » 10 Mar 2016 16:59

So Tavors can be used when in water as well


I have a friend in Canada who bought a Tavor about 4 months ago. Has Abused the hell out of it. Gone a Whole Week shooting more than 1000s Rounds with NO cleaning. Dunked it in water and mud in the cold. Claims to have shoved in a bent mag and the weapon has worked perfectly fine.

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Viv S » 10 Mar 2016 19:58

Army seethes at deployment in Sri Sri Ravi festival

Image

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 9th March 2016

Serving and retired army personnel and other concerned citizens have protested at the use of army engineers and combat equipment in building two pontoon bridges over the Yamuna River for a three-day World Cultural Festival (WCF) being organised from March 11-13 on the river’s flood plain in Delhi.

Separately, the National Green Tribunal (NGT) has expressed concern over the impact of lakhs of visitors and large structures on the fragile Yamuna bed and the flora and fauna that inhabit it. The NGT is expected to rule on this on Wednesday.

The WCF is being organised by the Sri Sri Ravi Shankar Foundation, which claims to propagate a “stress-free, violence-free world.” The founder, who is widely called “Sri Sri”, is close to the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) leadership and was awarded the Padma Vibhushan this year. The WCF website prominently displays a photograph of him with BJP leaders, including Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar admitted on Tuesday, to TV news channel Aaj Tak, that he ordered the army to use combat manpower and equipment in constructing the pontoon bridges to deal with security threats to the festival.

Aaj Tak did not ask him how pontoon bridges would help in dealing with security threats to the WCF. Nor, in fact, has the army been given any role in dealing with security or terrorist threats.

Parrikar also cited the precedence of the Kumbh Mela, where army engineers build pontoon bridges to allow the millions of visiting pilgrims to move from one side of the river to the other. Suggesting the pontoon bridges would avert the possibility of stampedes, he declared: “It was done with the sole purpose of avoiding accidents.”

Senior army generals tell Business Standard they are deeply uncomfortable with deploying soldiers and equipment for a function organised by a private, commercial organisation, but they had no choice. “We were not asked or consulted. The Raksha Mantri ordered us to build those bridges”, says a general in army headquarters.

The rules governing the deployment of the army in such tasks is laid down in the rulebook, “Regulations for the Army”. Paragraph 301 on Page 100 legislates on “Employment of troops on duties in aid of civil authorities”.

It states: “Troops may be called upon to perform in aid of the civil authorities any of the following duties: maintenance of law and order; maintenance of essential services; assistance during natural calamities such as earthquakes and floods; and any other type of assistance which may be needed by the civil authorities.”

It goes on to state: “When the services of troops are required by the civil authorities, the local military commander will first obtain, through authorised channels, the approval of the Central Government to their employment.”

Since the WCF deployment is clearly unrelated to law and order, essential services or disaster relief, Parrikar evidently invoked the fourth, catch-all, contingency: “any other type of assistance which may be needed by the civil authorities.”

Technically, therefore, the rulebook backs the defence minister’s order and the generals in fact had no choice but to obey. It is, however, another matter whether the defence minister’s order was ethically and morally grounded.

In a heated debate raging within military circles on social media like WhatsApp, many army officers believe the army chief should have taken a stronger stand against using army resources to help what one officer calls “a government-friendly God-man.”

“Had the army chief stood firm on an issue of propriety, the government would have had no choice but to take heed”, says one serving officer.

In this politically polarised discussion, some argue that, since the army’s resources are legitimately used for organising religious public events like the Amarnath Yatra and the Kumbh Mela, they could also be used for the WCF. Lieutenant General (Retired) Syed Ata Hasnain counters this, posting on Facebook: “When something is wrong it has to be called so. Hundred percent agree that the Army should not be doing this. We provide many things for Shri Amarnath Yatra but that is a completely different issue because of security and the terrain involved.”

Furthermore, the Sri Sri Foundation is a commercial organisation that openly seeks donor funding on its website. “Does the government even know where Sri Sri gets its funding from? It claims to be a non-profit organisation, but we would love to see the book of accounts”, demands another general, who seeks anonymity.

Some, like Lieutenant General (Retired) Raj Kadyan make the weak argument that “laying pontoon bridges for such functions provides good training for the army”. Others point out that the environment in which these pontoon bridges were laid bore no similarity to the conditions in which engineer bridging units actually train for war.

Perhaps the strongest argument against using army assistance in such functions relates to precedent. Says a serving lieutenant general: “Today we have come out to support the Sri Sri Foundation. Tomorrow, it could be Baba Ramdev; after that, the Jamaat-e-Islami; the next day the Dera Sacha Sauda or the Nirankari establishment. Where do we draw the line?”

Sid
BRFite
Posts: 1653
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 13:26

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Sid » 10 Mar 2016 20:22

IA is/was deployed/used during Commonwealth games (remember that bridge), Haj, Amarnath yatra, etc etc. Wonder why people started to squeak only during this event?

Although this practice should be stopped immoderately, but in hindsight no one else has similar capabilities.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1629
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 10 Mar 2016 22:15

I don't trust this Shooklaw article. Not that I am saying that the Corps of Engrs should be used for this but I wonder if the statements he has attributed to serving officers are true.

The HQs involved be GOC Delhi Area, ENC's branch, and Western Command as Delhi Area comes under Western Command. Let me try to get some info. My brother in law's uncle is the ENC. Let me see if I can get some true horse's mouth info.

vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby vishvak » 10 Mar 2016 23:01

Although this practice should be stopped immoderately, but in hindsight no one else has similar capabilities.

No one else should have similar capabilities, and that was never a problem at all.

nirav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2020
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 00:22
Location: Mumbai

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby nirav » 11 Mar 2016 00:49

it was only Ajai Shooklaw who was seething yest on NDTV.
The other gent from the Army, former VCoAS Gen Kadyan was okay with it and even said that Army as a matter of training parctices pontoon bridges on dry land. Here they were actually getting to do it on a river and its good training. Nothing wrong with it.

Barkha mutt immediately cut off the gent and gave him minimal time to speak. He was so professional, that he spoke only when spoken to, and Shooklaw made a total ass out of himself. The intellectual fart called the former VCoAS's opinion as a "joke" ..

@16:00 - 19:30
Very impressed by Gen Kadyan. The way he put forward his views is incredible and very professional.

Last edited by nirav on 11 Mar 2016 01:17, edited 1 time in total.

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Surya » 11 Mar 2016 00:54

Shukla off late talks like a rabid dog has bitten him

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23584
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 11 Mar 2016 02:48

Surya wrote:Shukla off late talks like a rabid dog has bitten him


he is a congi footmat by marriage relation to congi slaves.

disregard this ass. sore that he was blacklisted and not allowed to become a middleman for the arms trade.

no TV channel is willing to employ him. hearing that he is reduced to part time contract work for DD.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1694
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 11 Mar 2016 06:09

I rather enjoy the quality of his articles and the depth of research. His articles are never a lift off , of some information elsewhere and present lots of original content.
He was one of the few media folks who encouraged the IAF to set up a similar approach to the Navy when approaching the LCA in a debate by Stratpost .
Anyone disagreeing with you or me should not be branded as a Rabid dog or a Congress Foot_Mat.

Not professional to attack someone like that.

Don't seek to create homogenous army of people who all believe in one version of truth like the Chinese, you will just push the fissures in the society underground.
Instead seek debate and motivate and convert people to your point of view via your will power.

Anekta Mein Ekta


On the matter at hand. I believe its highly imporfessional for the Engr regiment to be employed in this manner and I disagree with it this
I disagree with the employment during commonwealth games and I object to the employment of the army to clear the rivers of Hyacinth Weed when it chokes up our rivers.

Instead the City Govt or State Govt should be given the powers to do something similar. (hyacinth scenario)
Common Wealth Contractors should be made to build the bridge and face egg on face
Move the stand away from the banks and organise different apporaches for traffic via standard bridges.

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Surya » 11 Mar 2016 06:21

Khalsa

have you seen his twitter rants?

yes his articles were better than most before but off late its a different story

anyway no more on shooklaw from me

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Gyan » 11 Mar 2016 15:10

vaibhav.n wrote:
Gyan wrote:Vaibhav can you comment on Sniper and DMR role/deployment in the Army? Have we started deploying DMR down to Section level?


AFAIK, they are held at the battalion level attached to rifle coys as the need arises.

Role is varied either in a defensive role or to recce enemy positions forward of their own lines.


I would have thought that world wide proliferation of weapon sights would inspire Army to deploy DMRs down to Section level. I think that we need atleast 2 designated Marksmen with Rifles equipped with medium power scopes per Section.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1629
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 11 Mar 2016 16:53

No Gyan,

there is no role for snipers in every section. Snipers are usually needed to take out enemy officers stealthily or in ambushes etc. When a section (assault group and support group) is assaulting a sniper is not needed and in typical assault firepower with RLs and MGLs and MGs is very useful. Also snipers need to remained camouflaged and lying in wait - game of patience and remaining immobile for long periods. Section is mobile and moving. But again, all depends upon the operation and infantry is flexibility max.

member_22539
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2022
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby member_22539 » 11 Mar 2016 17:11

^He said designated marksmen (as in a squad). I don't think he meant sniper.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1694
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 12 Mar 2016 02:30

Surya wrote:Khalsa

have you seen his twitter rants?

yes his articles were better than most before but off late its a different story

anyway no more on shooklaw from me


Surya Sir. No i have not.
If he is ranting then highly unprofessional of him.

I accede to the general agreement amongst BRFites.
I was only surprised at the language my brothers were using to bring him down.

:-) Anyway ... as you indicate... lets gets back on topic.

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7052
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby JE Menon » 12 Mar 2016 07:23

It was an event addressed by the prime minister with foreign dignitaries in attendance, including I think Saudi FM Adel al Jubair

Another one leaving media with egg on face and kick on base

vaibhav.n
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 575
Joined: 23 Mar 2010 21:47

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby vaibhav.n » 15 Mar 2016 19:45

Field Marshal Klaw fires a new one from the hips.

Armyism

The military chiefs were aware, or should have been, that Muslim organisations, including the moderate Muslim Personal Law Board, had expressed alarm at what they considered right-wing Hindutva sponsorship of yoga, the singing of Vande Mataram in schools, and the performance of Surya Namaskar --- also a yoga asana.



But well before that, the BJP-led government had begun involving the army in activities that were labelled “cultural”, but viewed by minority communities as symbolically Hindu. In January, 250 army troopers were despatched to Baba Ramdev’s Patanjali Yogpeeth in Haridwar, to train as yoga teachers who would spread the culture across the barracks. This was harder to pass off as apolitical, since Ramdev --- an undisguised Modi acolyte --- had hosted a convention for the RSS in the same location in 2014.


Now comes the paradox for the astute Field Marshal....

The US Army runs formal yoga sessions for its veterans to recover from PTSD and combat injuries. :rotfl: :rotfl:

iRest was developed by Richard Miller, PhD, after he was involved in a pilot study conducted at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in collaboration with the Department of Defense (2006) with soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. Successful results demonstrated that the meditative practice of Yoga Nidra helped decrease PTSD symptomatology. Yoga teachers trained in iRest now support active military, veterans, and their families in over 30 settings across the country.



That is not the end of it!!

It has now been grabbed by yankee special warfare units too....

At the Army's Camp Rudder on Eglin Air Force Base outside Pensacola, Army Ranger candidates go through their final and most difficult stage in their grueling training regimen. Capt. Jeremiah Cordovano, a Rudder instructor, said that yoga isn't a part of Ranger training but that some use it to build flexibility.

"It's still something that is sort of catching on, but a lot of guys have done it," he said. "I have done it quite a few times. A friend introduced me to it and I was surprised. At first I was just smiling, but after five or 10 minutes you really start to work out your muscles and stuff."


Adm. Tom Steffens, who spent 34 years as a Navy SEAL and served as the director of the elite corps' training, regularly practices yoga at his home in Norfolk, Va. "The yoga cured all kinds of back pains," he said. "Being a SEAL, you beat up your body."Yoga breathing exercises can help SEALs with their diving, and learning to control the body by remaining in unusual positions can help members stay in confined spaces for long periods, he said.

"The ability to stay focused on something, whether on breathing or on the yoga practice, and not be drawn off course, that has a lot of connection to the military," he said. "In our SEAL basic training, there are many things that are yoga-like in nature."


Poor Klaw...could not even mount a cavalry charge on paper...

Links:

http://www.menshealth.com/fitness/yoga-benefits-for-men

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/13890826/ns/health-fitness/t/soldiers-learn-loosen-yoga/#.VugmNPkrLIV

arshyam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3938
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby arshyam » 15 Mar 2016 21:17

^^ Sir, please post these sources in the comments section, if you haven't done so already. Such nonsensical articles need to be countered - I am disappointed by his arguments - won't any commander of men want the best for their men? Or will they let political ideologies dictate their decision making? FWIW, I am posting these comments there.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 15 Mar 2016 21:33

You have to understand he is a true blue c-party acolyte. For that lot anything overtly Hindu has to be sneered at and rejected. Now if the folks abroad do it, then it becomes "secular" and may well be adopted by hemming and hawing. Truly what a bunch of pathetic sods.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1851
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby sudeepj » 15 Mar 2016 22:40

Karan M wrote:You have to understand he is a true blue c-party acolyte. For that lot anything overtly Hindu has to be sneered at and rejected. Now if the folks abroad do it, then it becomes "secular" and may well be adopted by hemming and hawing. Truly what a bunch of pathetic sods.


Not just an acolyte. He is married into the Congress ecosystem. Gave a long marriage the heave-ho and jumped into ...

In his own article, he establishes his credentials by claiming:
1. He is a Non practicing hindu-brahmin.
2. Who was commissioned into a Sikh regiment, and by participating in the Sikh rituals and mythology, he has now become a part Sikh.

But if Yoga is introduced, that would make the ethos of the fauj into a forced kind of hinduism. As long as religions that are considered 'minorities' by the C ecosystem do it, its OK, but no accommodation can be made towards the majority faith, even to its cultural aspects.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1694
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 16 Mar 2016 23:39

sudeepj wrote:2. Who was commissioned into a Sikh regiment, and by participating in the Sikh rituals and mythology, he has now become a part Sikh.


You don't become a Sikh or a part Sikh by participating in a few Sikh activities. And Sikhism is not a myth.
There are a millions of Hindus and Muslims and Christians eating at Sikh Gurudwaras every day (across the world) and they do not automatically become Sikhs.
Visit Patna Sahib Gurudwara or the Gurudwara in Sacremento (California).

My father served in the Army, and I went each night(evening-ish) to the Unit Mandir for Puja with the regiment along with a dozen of my friends.
I did not automatically become Hindu. If anything it gave me insight , respect and love for another religion in addition to mine alone.

And I have news for you, there was no Mosque but the battalion had a few Muslim Jawans ... guess where they prayed ??? In the Mandir
In the second battalion... guess where Guru Granth Sahib was kept ? Right next to the Murtis of the Lord Krishna.
Dude ... I have seen all religions bind the Unit and battalion as one family under one roof.
What I have experienced is no less than what an astronaut must see when he observed earth from space. One Planet, One Family.

Get over this fully practicing and half practicing hindu, sikhs and christians thing.
All we should care about is are you a fully practicing Indian or not.

if you want to rubbish Ajai Shukla's article, do so in terms of merits such as Yoga is good for all and the US Army is using it etc.
I like that... however to paint him as a congress wala,, muslim lovah and a half sikh.

You are laying the fault lines in the foundations of our beloved Country.

By the way, here is a shot across your bow
If you are a Sikh or a part Sikh ... are you are a lesser Indian ?

General JJ Singh , the first Sikh Chief of the Indian Army was asked how do you feel about becoming so ?
His Answer: I am an Indian First, A Maratha Second (because he was commissioned in the Maratha Light Infrantry), A Sikh Third

NAILED
Now he in my proud opinion, epitomises what an Indian could or should be ?


Admin I respectfully apologise for going long and over explaining myself. But this needs to stop.
We are here to discuss Army news and I find it wrong that posters use religion or party loyalties to judge a person's article and throw mud and muck around.

Mukesh.Kumar
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 06 Dec 2009 14:09

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 17 Mar 2016 00:09

Khalsaji- ++1 to that

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23584
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby chetak » 17 Mar 2016 00:19

Surya wrote:Khalsa

have you seen his twitter rants?

yes his articles were better than most before but off late its a different story

anyway no more on shooklaw from me



Khalsa ji,

you may like to watch this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57tR6_jFINk


Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 17 Mar 2016 01:08

Khalsa wrote:
sudeepj wrote:2. Who was commissioned into a Sikh regiment, and by participating in the Sikh rituals and mythology, he has now become a part Sikh.


You don't become a Sikh or a part Sikh by participating in a few Sikh activities. And Sikhism is not a myth.
There are a millions of Hindus and Muslims and Christians eating at Sikh Gurudwaras every day (across the world) and they do not automatically become Sikhs.

Admin I respectfully apologise for going long and over explaining myself. But this needs to stop.
We are here to discuss Army news and I find it wrong that posters use religion or party loyalties to judge a person's article and throw mud and muck around.


That long rant apart, did you even understand what Sudeepj wrote, instead of taking wilful and unasked for offense?

He mentioned what the above gent himself is claiming as his raison de etre for dumping on one community 24/7. If he constantly muck rakes vis a vis one group, then people have every right to call it out.

Its nothing but ironic that you tout religion as being central to why you take offense yet insist loudly that another gents muck raking should be ignored.

Go through his twitter feed. Here are some gems.

My mission is kicking arses of Hindu fundoos. So you can pass unkicked. Ur lucky ur delusions are in another field!!


NDTV show, in which I tell RSS: after refusing to participate in freedom struggle, it is no arbiter of patriotism


This is what I feared the most of a Sanghi government, so well articulated by


Indian Army has always been free of political and religious ideology. Is there now an insidious plan to change this


I love this rationalisation. I wondered, "why waste time with these moron bhakts". Thx for strengthening my resolve


Note the pejorative use of the term bhakts. Would he use the term moron jihadis, or moron evangelicals or moron xyz? Clearly not.

Profound stupidity. Now he gets to decide what a nation is.
Tired of people who keep calling India a nation. India is not a nation. It is a multi-ethnic, multi-national, multi-religious state. Get it?


Attacks Army officers who don't agree with his views as senile.
Lt Gen SK Sinha finally goes senile. Equates slogans in JNU with Rosenberg spying and Amery broadcasts from Berlin!


More religious rabble rousing.
More bhakt gibberish. What do these guys try to say? What do they end up saying? Only Heaven knows. I mean Vaikunth.


Contemptuous reference to the elected PM
And one that passed itself off as a lion... turned out to be a pussy cat. Meow!


Now expert on religious affairs
Amazed at Hindutva logic!! Brass bands "western, so anti- national". Martial music shud be on Sitar and tabla. Shud messes serve Gau-mutra??


So heres the thing Khalsa, stop loudly giving certificates to jokers who wear their bias on their sleeve. If you don't like the fact these buffoons are called out on their bigotry, ask them to stop being bigots, not ask everyone else to be wilfully blind.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4535
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby sanjaykumar » 17 Mar 2016 01:20

Khalsa has made his views known, they seem eminently reasonable.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1851
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby sudeepj » 17 Mar 2016 02:23

..Deleted Duplicate.
Last edited by sudeepj on 17 Mar 2016 02:26, edited 1 time in total.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1851
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby sudeepj » 17 Mar 2016 02:23

Khalsa wrote:
sudeepj wrote:2. Who was commissioned into a Sikh regiment, and by participating in the Sikh rituals and mythology, he has now become a part Sikh.


You don't become a Sikh or a part Sikh by participating in a few Sikh activities. And Sikhism is not a myth.
There are a millions of Hindus and Muslims and Christians eating at Sikh Gurudwaras every day (across the world) and they do not automatically become Sikhs.
Visit Patna Sahib Gurudwara or the Gurudwara in Sacremento (California).

My father served in the Army, and I went each night(evening-ish) to the Unit Mandir for Puja with the regiment along with a dozen of my friends.
I did not automatically become Hindu. If anything it gave me insight , respect and love for another religion in addition to mine alone.


So why would having Jawans do Yoga make them Hindu? That having Jawans do Yoga, and taking help from the Army Corps of Engineers is 'pushing Hinduism into the army' is the central point of Shukla's opEd.

Khalsa wrote:And I have news for you, there was no Mosque but the battalion had a few Muslim Jawans ... guess where they prayed ??? In the Mandir

In the second battalion... guess where Guru Granth Sahib was kept ? Right next to the Murtis of the Lord Krishna.
Dude ... I have seen all religions bind the Unit and battalion as one family under one roof.
What I have experienced is no less than what an astronaut must see when he observed earth from space. One Planet, One Family.

Get over this fully practicing and half practicing hindu, sikhs and christians thing.
All we should care about is are you a fully practicing Indian or not.


Well said. I think we are in violent agreement.

Khalsa wrote:if you want to rubbish Ajai Shukla's article, do so in terms of merits such as Yoga is good for all and the US Army is using it etc.
I like that... however to paint him as a congress wala,, muslim lovah and a half sikh.


But he is a Congress wallah and his analysis and editorials need to read keeping that in mind. We dont need to reject whatever he is saying merely because he is a Congress wallah, but we need to be aware of what his interests are. Virtually all journalists and editors have become 'players' themselves and one would be better informed if one were aware of what their biases, business interests etc. are.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 17 Mar 2016 02:23

I don't think anyone noted that Khalsa hasn't made his views known. The point remains the author proudly touts religion as a defining reason for his claims and otherwise, and his own antics clearly show his own religious indoctrination. So his take off implying the author must not be criticized for his bigotry, is nothing but irony.

To point out his bias is entirely germaine and hence, while to accuse sudeepj, rather speciously of implying If you are a Sikh or a part Sikh ... are you are a lesser Indian ? is a non sequitur.

Further, folks might want to explore a bit more into where this pathological hatred of the nasty, dratted, politically aware unter.. err Hindus is coming from.
National Herald case:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Herald_scam

On 26 June 2014, Metropolitan Magistrate Ms. Gomati Manocha summoned Sonia Gandhi, Rahul Gandhi, Motilal Vora, Oscar Fernandes, Suman Dubey and Satyan Pitroda to appear in the court on 7 August 2014. She said that according to the evidence so far, "it appears that YIL was in fact created as a sham or a cloak to convert public money to personal use" to acquire control over ₹20 billion (US$300 million) worth of AJL assets. The court noted that all accused persons had allegedly acted "in consortium with each other to achieve the said nefarious purpose/design".[23][24]


And read the latter.
http://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/st ... uch/284091

In short, lets not defend the indefensible sorts..

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1629
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 17 Mar 2016 02:42

Karan,

+1

Gents,

lets stop this unseemly discussion please. I feel saddened when I see such things on BR.

As promised I have horses mouth info from the ENCs branch (Corps of Engrs) re the Engr Regt being used for building bridges and strong statements being attributed to the army re its unwillingness to do so.

In their words ' Storm in a teacup'. 'We would prefer the army is not always the backstop of last resort but lets not blow up the issue. We have far more important issues that are hurting our morale, nation security, and destroying our capabilities - Pay Commission and Apartheid by the bureaucracy against us'.

These statements are by a senior serving Lt Gen.

Sorry it took me some time to get this.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1694
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 17 Mar 2016 04:50

Thanks for the bait Karan M :-) I refuse to indulge you and this discussion any further.
Lets move on with some real Army News and Discussion

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24186
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby SSridhar » 17 Mar 2016 09:28

sudeepj & Khalsa, seriously, both you guys are saying the same thing as far as I can see.

Khalsa, sudeepj was simply quoting Ajai Shukla. Whatever he said was not his own words.

Everyone, this should not be discussed anymore.

TIA.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 17 Mar 2016 09:30

Khalsa, au contraire, I normally don't even care much about what this gent posts or claims in terms of his bigotry. His bias is so stark raving mad. However, your posts were so one sided that you did bait me into responding. Good going.

So I think I have indulged you quite a bit. People here can see what is what now, despite your attempt to portray others here as biased, when in effect you were busy defending somebody who was/is a bigot and somebody with a vested interest in propaganda against the current GOI. You are welcome to continue to try and hold him in great esteem. The rest of us will go by his own behavior since can determine the reality.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 17 Mar 2016 09:31

SSridhar, I posted at the same time as you. No more on this from me.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Karan M » 17 Mar 2016 09:35

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Karan,

+1

Gents,

lets stop this unseemly discussion please. I feel saddened when I see such things on BR.

As promised I have horses mouth info from the ENCs branch (Corps of Engrs) re the Engr Regt being used for building bridges and strong statements being attributed to the army re its unwillingness to do so.

In their words ' Storm in a teacup'. 'We would prefer the army is not always the backstop of last resort but lets not blow up the issue. We have far more important issues that are hurting our morale, nation security, and destroying our capabilities - Pay Commission and Apartheid by the bureaucracy against us'.

These statements are by a senior serving Lt Gen.

Sorry it took me some time to get this.


Akshay, this seems to be the 2nd recent occasion in which fake anonymous sources and others have been used to project a fake view of the IA opinion to merely run down the present Govt. First, was the Pathankot ops again by the usual gang of suspects.

Question, if the GOI were to crack down on a handful of vested interests, would it be seen as anti Army and a babu attempt to malign the forces and muzzle them?

Of late, this issue has become more and more serious. Tomorrow even if we have a national security issue of huge proportions, a section of the more political types will be trotted out and either anon or otherwise, claim to speak for the military.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24186
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby SSridhar » 17 Mar 2016 09:36

Wanted to post the following sometime back, but missed it.

Golden occasion for ‘thambis’ of 13 Engineer Regiment - The Hindu
They constructed the first floating bridge in Kashmir valley in just three hours in 1995. During the 1971 war, amid heavy bombardment, they converted a deeply mined railway line stretching from Balurghat, India to Hilli in East Pakistan into a road in lightening speed over night. They have worked in extreme weather conditions – sub-zero temperature of Ladakh and the blistering heat of Rajasthan. They are the “thambis” of 13 Engineer Regiment of the Madras Engineer Group, Indian Army.

On Tuesday [March 1, 2016], it was time to celebrate the regiment’s 50 years of existence, as a large gathering of ex-servicemen from Vellore and other parts of the State came together to go down on the memory’s lane.

“The 13 Engineer Regiment’s job is to provide engineering service to enable the infantry to advance. We deal with explosions, we neutralise enemies’ minefields and lay mines. We have built thousands of bridges,” retired Colonel M.M. Khan, who was part of the regiment between 1973 and 1996 said.

Interestingly, the regiment’s language was mostly Tamil. Most of the men recruited to the regiment came from Tamil Nadu, with Vellore main a major hub, he added.

In fact, the regiment’s motto was “Padimune Po Munne,” [Thirteen, go forward] a slogan that kept the “thambis” going ahead even in the toughest conditions. Formed in 1966 in Sagar in Madhya Pradesh, the regiment played a pivotal role in the Indo-Pak 1971 war. “Our outstanding job forced Pakistan forces to surrender. We also received the East Pakistan Theatre Award. Our regiment has worked all over the borders of India. Whether floods or earthquakes, we are the first to go for aid and relief,” he pointed out.

Recounting the construction of the first heavy assault floating bridge in Kashmir, he said that there were maximum wooden bridges in the valley, and during the militancy in 90s, the bridges used to be set on fire.

“One such place was Khudwain in south Kashmir. Even the civil engineering departments ruled out the possibility of constructing a bridge. The bank of the river was steep, and water current was fast. We conducted reconnaissance and went ahead with the construction,” he recalled. The regiment constructed a 100 metre long bridge. In the absence of the bridge, the local population had to travel for 80 kilometres.


Another achievement was establishing a ditch cum bund that served as an obstacle to the enemies’ tanks. The regiment went on to bag six awards for its works.

Many ex-servicemen recalled memories of the regiment. Ex-serviceman, Captain M. Sundaramoorthy, who was among the first to join the regiment, recalled how they had breached many minefields, while 72-year-old Captain M.V. Krishnan said that during the 1971 war, they were involved in several dangerous jobs.

As the ex-servicemen celebrated the Golden Jubilee, the regimental headquarters was also having a small celebration. Similar celebrations were being organised in Thrissur (Kerala), Secunderabad (Hyderabad) and Bengaluru (Karnataka), Colonel Khan noted.

Ordinary Captain R.N. Chakravarthy, an ex-serviceman, said around 250 ex-servicemen from including Vellore, Madurai, Tiruchi, Salem, Puducherry and Krishnagiri took part in the Golden Jubilee celebrations.

Out of his 37 years in the army, Subedar Major Ordinary Captain V. Xavier Yesudoss was part of the regiment for 32 years, while another ex-serviceman Subedar Madasamy named his house “thambi illam” in memory of the regiment, a fitting tribute indeed.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1694
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby Khalsa » 17 Mar 2016 10:14

Karan M wrote:Khalsa, au contraire, I normally don't even care much about what this gent posts or claims in terms of his bigotry. His bias is so stark raving mad. However, your posts were so one sided that you did bait me into responding. Good going.

So I think I have indulged you quite a bit. People here can see what is what now, despite your attempt to portray others here as biased, when in effect you were busy defending somebody who was/is a bigot and somebody with a vested interest in propaganda against the current GOI. You are welcome to continue to try and hold him in great esteem. The rest of us will go by his own behavior since can determine the reality.


Thanks for clarifying Karan
The one thing I like about Ajai's articles are his research he puts in (refer to his articles about numbers etc , OROP etc) He usually can bridge the gap quite well. IMHO
By the way I am not following all his articles or his twitter etc so I am not 100 % aware of his view point and angle of attacks.
However lately I have heard from lots of folks On BRF including yourself that he is biased... if he is then .. .okay And that is what I want to hear ... he biased etc. You know pick the real cracks in his armour and destroy him if he is discrediting without a real reason.
I have no issues with that Karan.

However what I did not like, Hinduism and Sikhism making it into the paragraph.
I can deal with info and criticism without being aided with correcting glasses that make me see our society divided across religious lines.

And was never my intention to bait you and I am sure you never intended to bait me, even though it seemed like that to me.
I would go and edit what I said but I will leave it for posterity.

Au Revoir

Edited once to correct grammar.
Last edited by Khalsa on 17 Mar 2016 12:00, edited 1 time in total.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: brar_w, suryag and 94 guests