Indian Military Helicopters

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 12 Feb 2016 19:03

Deliveries of Apache and Chinook will commence in 2019.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 04 Mar 2016 21:08

A tender is out for the EECU of HTSE-1200

DESIGN AND DEVELOPMENT OF ENGINE ELECTRONIC CONTROL UNIT (EECU) HARDWARE OF TURBOSHAFT ENGINE – PRELIMINARY TECHNICAL SPECIFICATION

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 05 Mar 2016 02:54

Nice find.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Mar 2016 12:07

The Seahawk is in hover mode using its dunking sonar.If you look at any helo is such an attitude you will find significant downwash for normal climatic conditions. One should instead examine what the Kamov's with their co-axial rotors produce in comparison.For the Sheldon Cooper's of this forum,enjoy this discussion.

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/h ... sh.104937/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamov_Ka-50

Like other Kamov helicopters, it features Kamov's characteristic contra-rotating co-axial rotor system, which removes the need for the entire tail rotor assembly and improves the aircraft's aerobatic qualities—it can perform loops, rolls and "the funnel" (circle-strafing), where the aircraft maintains a line-of-sight to the target while flying circles of varying altitude, elevation and airspeed around it. Using two rotors means that a smaller rotor with slower-moving rotor tips can be used, compared to a single-rotor design.[citation needed] Since the speed of the advancing rotor tip is a primary limitation to the maximum speed of a helicopter, this allows a faster maximum speed than helicopters such as the AH-64. The elimination of the tail rotor is a qualitative advantage, because the torque-countering tail rotor can use up to 30% of engine power. Furthermore, the vulnerable boom and rear gearbox are fairly common causes of helicopter losses in combat; the Black Shark's entire transmission presents a comparatively small target to ground fire.[

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 08 Mar 2016 17:33

Oh wow!
Stunning!

Twitter Link

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 08 Mar 2016 21:11

Photo ops are one thing, but consider the numbers possible. For a serious fight, ets say 12 are spared at any given front. That gives you 12x12 or 144 total bare men OR a much smaller ~50 lightly armed mounted group. It is impressive only to civilians. The 17s will do anything in numbers and quantity. There is a reason why dhruv is called a light helicopter.

These would be much better used in the armed role than for alighting.

The ch47s will be able to do comparable with 2 or 3. Of course, those wont be available for more than show either.

People complain that any criticism is whining. This is just not a practical role for ALH. Nothing for or against the machine, the presentation is comparable to BSF bicycle shows (alright motor bicycles). A lot of skill and practice but to what end?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 08 Mar 2016 21:28

Shreeman wrote:Photo ops are one thing, but consider the numbers possible. For a serious fight, ets say 12 are spared at any given front. That gives you 12x12 or 144 total bare men OR a much smaller ~50 lightly armed mounted group. It is impressive only to civilians. The 17s will do anything in numbers and quantity. There is a reason why dhruv is called a light helicopter.

These would be much better used in the armed role than for alighting.

The ch47s will be able to do comparable with 2 or 3. Of course, those wont be available for more than show either.

People complain that any criticism is whining. This is just not a practical role for ALH. Nothing for or against the machine, the presentation is comparable to BSF bicycle shows (alright motor bicycles). A lot of skill and practice but to what end?

No, force packages will contain adequate sticks/ troops to secure the target for which the troops are being slithered. The total contingent varies from situation to situation.

Dhruv can do the job or Mi 17 can - depends on what is the package requirement.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 08 Mar 2016 21:47

One Ch47 being shot down would also mean a lot more damage than a dhruv, which also flies a lot higher and has a WSI model available.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 09 Mar 2016 04:15

deejay, bheeshma,

You guys know this stuff, well deejay does for sure. Clearly you arent saying the ALH can substitute for 8/17? As listed in the internets, there are only 200 each, a few give or take. Where would the sort of situation demonstrated above arise? 2 helos, 20 people?

More broadly, what is the most authoritative description of helicopter use? Their only real role seems to be disaster relief these days, but should the situation arise is there any clarity on how either would be used that is available and accessible open source?

I conjecture that it would be harder to shoot down a ch47, than a mi8/17 than a dhruv. But a lucky shot from any slingshot can bring down any bird. Doesnt mean there is not an appropriate size for a role. Clearly a gaggle of birds will laso make more noise, be more visible and attract more attention?

In any case, this is interesting and my prior opinions are pure speculation. What does on read to learn facts?

edit -- the WSI is irrelevent to the debate here AFAIAC. As is any other armed version. The demonstration is lightly armed troop insertion/extraction. No questiona were raised re. armed versions nor were they in the picture.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 09 Mar 2016 04:36

No just saying each has a role to play and Dhruv is important in its role. CH-47 will only be acquired in small numbers and the main troop carrier heli is Mi-17V5.

srai · Post by **srai** » 09 Mar 2016 05:15

Shreeman wrote:deejay, bheeshma,

You guys know this stuff, well deejay does for sure. Clearly you arent saying the ALH can substitute for 8/17? As listed in the internets, there are only 200 each, a few give or take. Where would the sort of situation demonstrated above arise? 2 helos, 20 people?
...

Special Ops (that photo you are referring to looks like SF units)
Hostage rescue; Combat Evacuations etc.
Anti-militancy (regular use)

On the topic of broader usage:

A recent example (pre-staged with helos), Profile of the 21 SF Army unit that raided Naga militants in Myanmar.

Larger use cases: Given that each ALH can carry around 12 troops, only 3-5 would be needed to move a platoon (around 35 men) at one go. With 12-15 ALH, it would be possible to move an entire company (around 120 men) at one go. With multiple round trips, you can move an entire battalion. Some examples of larger scale heliborne operations:

IAF Ops: Operation Pawan: Jaffna University Helidrop
Vietnam war: One example, Battle of Ia Drang [depicted in movie "We were Soldiers"] - used UH-1B Huey, which has similar troop carrying capacity as ALH.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Mar 2016 05:24

in 1971, Meghna crossing.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Mar 2016 07:33

ramana wrote:in 1971, Meghna crossing.

+1

In PC Lal's autobiography he points out how the Mi 4 helo could accommodate only 14 trrops but helos flew sortie after sortie and as fuel was used up the helos were carrying 23 troops per sortie

Here is my version of the story telling that part of the event
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... 4xj0#t=271

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 09 Mar 2016 08:29

Look folks, we are not in 71 anymore.

And I just argued above that the 200ish light helicopters would be spread thin, and more prone to being detected and countered, and they would need a lot of numbers -- trips OR rotors. There will be 15ch47s, thats equal to 60+ ALHs not including the fact that more gear would go with CH47s. This was dismissed summarily.

So we cant turn around and say a squadron of alh will suddenly build an air bridge. Thats unlikely. Not impossible, just unlikely.

Next we come to the other three uses -- they are not hot situations. The demonstration is not staged in a way that these roles could apply -- open terrain, a gypsy (probably brought in with another sortie in the background), no opponents, no built up structures of relevance.

This is simply quick alighting of light troops that could call in heavy stuff, watch out, or hold fort for a little bit while the rear and real armor catches up. Those are possible roles, but they havent been pointed out.

So this doesnt demonstrate anti militant activity, terrirists arent likely to be sitting out in the middle of nowhere while rotors buzz overhead. Everyone and their uncle has an RPG that will not be an easy task to defeat.

Special forces is just a buzz word for not being able to describe the activity. Casualty evacuation is only ever hoisted when landing isnt possible and then you would not send in fully loaded rotor, but one with ample spare capacity. This doesnt look like machines carrying stretchers.

Slithering down ropes is great. But thats the entirety of it. Then they get into the jeep and drive away. Where would that happen?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Mar 2016 08:34

When one thinks of helicopters and air assault, I guess everyone has image of American 101st Airborne Division with its humongous inventory of attack, support and lift helicopters.

In our case, let us first appreciate the fact that ALH brings in capability where none existed.

Secondly, it is incorrect to only look at capability in terms of absolute capacity. So, if a Corps has 1 x ALH squadron with 10 machines, it does not mean the airlift capability is only 100-120 troops at one go. Though this is a very important number. For example, Indian Army's expansion plan for Army Aviation Corps (AAC) calls for capability to airlift an Infantry Company at Corps level and a Battalion at Command/AHQ level.

As Shiv pointed out, the same set can work in multiple cycles, situation permitting.

And just look at the flexibility - if I've a situation of Pakistan Armor breaking through at some front, I can airlift a multiple ATGM platoons to strengthen the troops. Or, plug in a company worth of troops in some other sector.

Ideal situation for IA is to have 1 x LUH + 1 x ALH + 1 x Mi-17 + 1 x WSI-Dhruv + 1 x Attack Helicopter squadrons in a Combat Aviation Brigade at Corps level. Save for Mi-17, the balance is what is planned for implementation. Though, my guess is that IA will choose between WSI-Dhruv, LCH and Apache for Attack helicopter category.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Mar 2016 08:39

Shreeman wrote: Slithering down ropes is great. But thats the entirety of it. Then they get into the jeep and drive away. Where would that happen?

It happens in a fake video made for a story. The real story will definitely be different but need not be as negative as you might like to portray it.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 09 Mar 2016 08:45

Indeed, rohit part of this makes sense AND can be shown AND then debated here ad nauseum just like this.

And no, there isnt need for comparing with farther west. Immediate west has cobbled together an inventory in three digits and is surely scheming similar uses.

I too noted just ahead of you being the tip of the spear could possibly apply. But then why isnt the gear shown? Will taking ATGM type gear cut down on the number of people that can go? Would the gypsy really play a role other than taking up one full machine/trip? Does hoisting up/down with ATGMs make a good practical application rather than touching down, and quickly wandering out with whatever you need. Hover isnt really a good performance case for a rotor -- or the dust etc for the people/operators.

Shiv since notes that this is just a demo, which is where I first started. This isnt being negative. It would be no less of a demo of if 6 people and 6 pairs of ATGM each alighted quickly from a landed machine. Or a similar realistic use case. This leans towards the BSF bridges of people on bicycles, which doesnt look very impressive to a lay person.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Mar 2016 08:48

Shreeman wrote: Shiv since notes that this is just a demo, which is where I first started. This isnt being negative. It would be no less of a demo of if 6 people and 6 pairs of ATGM each alighted quickly from a landed machine. This leans towards the BSF bridges of people on bicycles, which doesnt look very impressive to a lay person.

Shreemanji - your name says it all. I am sure you are right

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 09 Mar 2016 08:50

Hakim ji,

I am just nature's confused child, as you well know. You know, asking the important questions like why superman wears the underwear on the outside.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Mar 2016 09:04

I don't know why we're fixated with this slithering bit. When fact of the matter is that your standard infantry battalion is not trained for this operation.

Except for a situation where troops simply get into a chopper with whatever they've on their person and some extra bit, heliborne operations require prior familiarization between the choppers and infantry chaps. SOP need to be worked out in terms of what can be carried, how will it be carried and how does one get out of chopper with your gear. Infantry chaps need to be told that choppers are not exactly areal version of their cross country trucks. There has to be proper manpower and load planning.

For example, you need to prepare a gypsy or any other load before it can be slung under the helicopter.

Paratroopers (infantry and other fighting arms) and SF chaps are trained for this. And one invariably sees them in all demonstrations.

For the rest, the whole culture of working closely with choppers will need to be inculcated.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Mar 2016 09:12

shiv wrote:<SNIP>

You've mail.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 14 Mar 2016 00:03

IAF relaunches upgraded (ALG) at Ziro and Along in Arunachal. C 130s can land there now. @SJha1618

More pics in the tweet

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 14 Mar 2016 00:12

Slithering bit - me, another of nature's confused child, just guessing all terrain is not suitable for landing. Like uneven hilly terrain.
Carry on though.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 14 Mar 2016 03:48

The news that should be dissected is LCH firing rockets or something at the pillow fist. If I read it right. If its true, it merits some closer examination.

Yet, natural urges demand one more try at something different. Last one on the subject. The slithering is the highlight and more or less the entire demo. The demo shows, we come jump out of a helicopter, and there is our jeep which also came by helicopter and we drive away. In previous iterations a cheetah circles around, smoke is created, etc. Now lets dispose off the hilly terrain bit. First, you dont take a car. Second you dont try to create a position where there are folks below you all around needing a cheetah to even put you there in the first place, and if you do then you take some meaningful hardware with you. Jumping out of a helicopter like this doesnt make any sense. You see hovering craft at all sorts of heights, you see this very machine landing on hilly inclines, and you can certainly hover lower which should be safer for all concerned from a hard landing perspective. Sorry, the hills just dont make sense here just for letting two dozen people out. You can cook up a *different* more realistic hilly demo. Slithering or jeep. One of the two.

The complaint is -- dont make up bollywood scenarios, demonstrate how you actually use it. The response so far has been some version of "we are like this onlee" to "why do you even think of criticising". This whole "we must make it l@@k sayxi" attitude is getting in the way of lay folks getting an understanding of what 200 odd machines are doing.

For all we know, like the recent AP pichhars they are mere communication vehicles ferrying generals, babus, and politicians exclusively. An ALH, two gamlas, blue carpet. Perfect.

The helicopter usage in utility and more roles has been a few decades lagging because of hesitation over internal employment of hard army assets and relatively small dispersed numbers. You only ever see them carrying a politician watching over a flood, or throwing sacks into flooded areas or lifting them out of said areas, or they are parked on a tarmac looking SDRE compared to some TFTA hardware. When you get the rare opportunity to show real utility, why cook up a mixture of half dozen scrnarios in one? It is doubtful this changes any opinions, but the demonstrations ought not be for internal consumption.

The most recent such major disaster was the fleet review. And you find plenty defenders of its publicity, conduct and broadcast. Why? Because there are a 1B+ people and some will invariably rise up with their must salute the flag sentiment to defend even Doordushtan. It is no different here. Perhaps it would be better a different way, but this artificial scarcity, obscurity, is prtly intentional. Only partly due to incompetence. The fewest of the few interested in seeing this pichhars are more than content that these were shown. Because it could well be, as it used to, that none are shown, or described, or disclosed in any way.

2.5c onlee.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 14 Mar 2016 09:32

The Along ALG has undergone a fantastic transformation. We used to operate from a Gazebo and jugaar urinal. IA would do its best to keep the place functional. There was a village main road running in between the Gazebo and the ALG. All that seems to have changed now.

The weather in the background is reassuring

.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 14 Mar 2016 11:54

HAL's indigenously built LCH fires rockets
Bengaluru, March 14:

After successful completion of basic performance flight testing and outstation trials for cold weather, hot weather and hot and high altitude testing in the year 2015, the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) has achieved yet another milestone by satisfactory firing of Rockets (70 mm) from its prototype, TD-3 in weaponized configuration.

“The initial rocket firing trials have been carried out at Jaisalmer, establishing satisfactory integration of hardware and software, structural integrity and safe separation of rocket ammunition. Integration of weapons such as Rocket, Turret Gun (20 mm) and Air to Air Missile on LCH will further continue”, said T Suvarna Raju, CMD, HAL.

“These trials give us confidence for carrying out certification firing trials planned during Apr-May 2016”, he added.

LCH will participate in IAF’s 'Iron Fist 2016’ exercise on March 18, 2016. The LCH TD-3 is integrated with Electo-Optical (EO) System, Solid State Digital Video Recording System (SSDVR) and 70mm Rocket system in conjunction with an updated Glass Cockpit software to cater for rocket firing.

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 14 Mar 2016 11:56

press release for the LCH rocket firing test.

interesting angle here - maybe deejay can explain this picture better

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 14 Mar 2016 11:57

Livefist Twitter

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 14 Mar 2016 12:03

HAL's LCH passes rocket trials; will participate in 'Iron Fist' exercise

BENGALURU: After completion of basic performance flight testing and outstation trials, the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) has now satisfactorily fired Rockets (70 mm) from its prototype, TD-3 in weaponized configuration, a HAL press release said.

"The initial rocket firing trials have been carried out at Jaisalmer, establishing satisfactory integration of hardware and software, structural integrity and safe separation of rocket ammunition. Integration of weapons such as Rocket, Turret Gun (20 mm) and Air to Air Missile on LCH will further continue", said HAL 's CMD T. Suvarna Raju.

"These trials give us confidence for carrying out certification firing trials planned during Apr-May 2016", he said. LCH will participate in IAF's 'Iron Fist 2016' exercise on March 18, 2016.

The LCH TD-3 is integrated with Electo-Optical (EO) System, Solid State Digital Video Recording System (SSDVR) and 70mm Rocket system in conjunction with an updated Glass Cockpit software to cater for rocket firing.

"LCH is a 5.5-ton class, combat helicopter designed and developed by HAL. It is powered by two Shakti engines and inherits many technical features of the Advanced Light Helicopter. The features that are unique to LCH are sleek and narrow fuselage, tri-cycle crashworthy landing gear, crashworthy and self sealing fuel tanks, armor protection, nuclear and low visibility features which makes the LCH lethal, agile and survivable," said the release.

The first prototype helicopter had its inaugural flight on Mar 23, 2010. The second and third prototype had their first flight on June 28, 2011 and Nov 12, 2014. LCH TD4 completed its maiden flight on December 1, 2015.

arun · Post by **arun** » 14 Mar 2016 12:09

^^^ FWIW HAL Press Release on the LCH from HAL website here:

CLICKY

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Mar 2016 14:13

Which anti-tank missile planned for LCH? Will it be HELINA?

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 14 Mar 2016 16:44

Currently LCH seems to be carrying 12 tube FZ231 from Forges de Zeebrugge (FZ) -Belgium

Wonder if LCH can also carry 19 tube FZ225 or not due to weight limitation

Forges de Zeebrugge (FZ) also make Semi-Active Laser (SAL) Guided Rocket FZ275 LGR

The company website also has reference to LCH and ALH

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Mar 2016 17:31

Rocket motor seems to be this:

Code: Select all

Features

    WA (Wrap Around)
    Total impulse: 680daN.s
    Range (ground-to-ground): ~9100m
    Propellant grain: star-shaped centre hole extruded double base
    Length: 1060 mm
    Mass: 6.3kg
    Warhead interface : 2.400 " -6-29° STUB ACME 3G, fully compatible with all the 2.75 inch rocket warheads
    Smokeless, non-corrosive

Warhead seems to be this one:

Code: Select all

Features

    Total mass: 4.3kg
    No pyrotechnic components
    For training purposes
    Same mass and ballistic as FZ71-FZ319-FZ181

FZ: LCH (Light Combat Helicopter)
FZ: ALH (Advance Light Helicopter)

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 14 Mar 2016 17:55

credit forum.keypublishing.com

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Mar 2016 18:37

LCH video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf_vEjUd1nE

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 14 Mar 2016 19:31

Newbie Observation :

^^
The width of Engine section of LCH is higher than the overall fuselage from Front View.
We could have easily increased the width of the fuselage keeping in line with the Engine section for more sleeker look.
It would also would have assisted store some things internally and well protected.

Compare with Other helicopters :--
Apache
Mi 28

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Mar 2016 19:57

^^Other than "sleeker look" what advantage would it offer the pilot or in performance?

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Mar 2016 20:18

^^^
Weight penalties.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 14 Mar 2016 22:45

srai wrote:

srai

where is that view from ?
I don't think its from the 360 EO all seeing eye.

and what are those three wires doing in there ?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Mar 2016 06:26

agupta wrote:^^^
All the much better to absorb enemy bullets and drive them into bankruptcy...

higher form and skin friction drag, so lower speed capability can make for a better platform for tourists...