Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2016 19:55

unnamed sources are a good way to run down desi projects, establish redlines and float trial balloons. there are real people with vested interests behind such comments.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 11 Mar 2016 20:01

I tweeted the following to @SpokespersonMoD with #illogicalIAFspecs

Can @SpokespersonMoD confirm if this news report published is official IAF position http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /81577760/ (Post 1/4) #illogicalIAFspecs

@SpokespersonMoD If so, then please note all comparable anti radiation missiles weigh more than 100 kg. (Post 2/4) #illogicalIAFspecs

@SpokespersonMoD If not, then which IAF officer quoted in the news article is making an unsubstantiated comment?(Post 3/4)#illogicalIAFspecs

If its not IAF OfficialPosition,then will @SpokespersonMoD take action against journalist for unsubstantiated allegations?#illogicalIAFspecs

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 11 Mar 2016 20:58

IIRC sometime back, dia of NGARM was speculated to be 380 mm based on some tenders. So missile would weight around 500-700kg. My personal guess is that the missile would be equivalent of Kh-31.

I think the DDM is confusing and mixing the specifications of indigenous LGB, ARM, and PGM.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 11 Mar 2016 21:42

Or someone is fishing for info

Shanu · Post by **Shanu** » 11 Mar 2016 23:54

So just when the missile is ready for testing (ground testing in April and flight testing in June), Lifafa article strikes. What is even more amusing/disgusting is that now this will form the standard template of all future reports on NGARM.

So when DRDO will publish a successful test press release, DDM will add something like this -

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has raised objections to the NGARM which is under development. The 60-kilometer-range NGARM is too bulky, IAF officials said.

"NGARM being developed by DRDO weighs around 140 kilograms and is too heavy, whereas IAF wants only such missiles that do not weigh over 100 kilograms; this one will not meet our requirement," said a senior Air Force official.

"DRDO has never kept us in the loop about this missile, and we are not sure if we will at all use it," the IAF official said, adding, "Infrared radiation seeker technology from Russia will make it too bulky."

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/15573/ ... uMb-yVS3IV

Note how, the comment by one unspecified IAF official becomes the statement of IAF itself.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Mar 2016 06:41

I propose to start a thread entitled "Fake Defence News" where members are free to fake any news. Seeing that real news portals actually post fake news why not pre empt the buggers and make up stuff ourselves?

Please post in the GDF thread linked below if anyone is feeling creative enough to contribute

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1991766

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 12 Mar 2016 07:00

Vivek Raghuvanshi is an otherwise unemployable military brat who uses his dad's club membership to go out for a drink with his dad's old boys network and inveigles bits and pieces of data from people remotely disconnected from actual matters who've been passed over and are looking for alternate career opportunities to maintain a flamboyant metro lifestyle.

One problem in our military system is people who've exhausted their potential. Many go out and make their mark in civilian life, but many are too used to their comfort zones in the military and use the old boys network to create positions and stay on.

This is also a prevalent practice in large corporations where administrative positions are created & staffed by old boys, while billable resources are fired in the guise of cost cutting.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 12 Mar 2016 09:28

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 366381.cms

Manohar Parrikar's defence rejig saved Rs 49,300 crore

Manu Pubby

NEW DELHI: In a rare exercise, India's air defence plans have been altered after an intervention by defence minister Parrikar that may have saved the taxpayer Rs 49,300 crore in acquisitions over the next decade.

Faced with the high cost of acquiring the Russian S 400 long range missile shield - the cutting edge system that can bring down incoming stealth fighters and missiles at a range of 380 km - the minister ordered a review of the 15 year long term plan to purchase new air defence systems upto 2027.

The recently concluded review, which involved a technical study by the air force and an evaluation of all available air defence systems in the world, has resulted in a consensus decision to cut down on purchase plans of shorter range missiles, senior officials have told ET.

Air defence strategy hinges around three layers - a short range system that protects high value installations upto 25 km, a medium range system that covers an area of around 40 km and a long range system for threats coming from further.

Sources told ET that the revaluation conducted by the air force concluded that with the S400 acquisition, the long term acquisition plan for over 100 each Medium and Short range systems have been cut down. "The study found that we will require a much lesser number of the shorter range systems. Minister Parrikar convinced the air force that according to its layered defence plan, the long range system (S 400) would make the larger number of MR SAM and SR SAM redundant," a top official told ET. The S 400 is expected to cost $ 6.1 billion for five systems - the most expensive air defence system ever bought by India. But, on a per square km covered basis, if is the cheapest of known systems available globally.

Russian import lobby wants to cut indigeneously/jointly developed missiles Akash and MRSAM to help pay for S400 by praising MP!!! MP will see through the design, he is sharp.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 12 Mar 2016 11:47

It is shameless plug for imports. DRDO SAM programme is facing massive import lobby attack.

DRDO QRSAM vs French Maitri, Version of Barak-2

DRDO Akash-1,2 Vs Barak-2 fake JV

DRDO AAD based SAM Vs Barak-2 fake JV with booster, S-400, SM

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 12 Mar 2016 14:10

Singha wrote:the iranians also managed to bring down a classified x-plane drone..maybe they jammed enough signal to trigger a automatic recovery mode wherein it glided to a soft landing right into the arms of the cats.

And it wasn't just any drone. This was the much spoken and dreaded "Ghost of Kandahar".

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Mar 2016 16:39

tsarkar wrote:Vivek Raghuvanshi is an otherwise unemployable military brat who uses his dad's club membership to go out for a drink with his dad's old boys network and inveigles bits and pieces of data from people remotely disconnected from actual matters who've been passed over and are looking for alternate career opportunities to maintain a flamboyant metro lifestyle.

One problem in our military system is people who've exhausted their potential. Many go out and make their mark in civilian life, but many are too used to their comfort zones in the military and use the old boys network to create positions and stay on.

This is also a prevalent practice in large corporations where administrative positions are created & staffed by old boys, while billable resources are fired in the guise of cost cutting.

As the saying goes "It's who you know and not what you know".

John · Post by **John** » 12 Mar 2016 17:24

Stop import lobby bs i know its fun to put on tin foil and talk about conspiracy.

IAF more or less has lost patience in AAD which has been in devolopment for a decade and is in no closer to induction any time soon. However unf procurement of S400 to replace it, its cost will impact other programs including MR SAM.

jayasimha · Post by **jayasimha** » 12 Mar 2016 17:34

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 245955.ece

Captive flight trials of an advanced, state-of-the-art Anti-Radiation Missile (ARM) are planned for April-May this year, and the maiden flight test by year-end by the missile technologists of the Defence Research and Development Organisation.

The air-to-surface tactical missile being developed by Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) will target the enemy’s air defence capabilities by attacking radars and communication facilities.

The range of the missile is 100 to 125 km and it will be mounted on combat aircraft Sukhoi (Su-30) and Tejas-Light Combat Aircraft.

The missile picks up the radiation or signals of radars and communication facilities and homes on to the targets to destroy them.

According to DRDO sources, scientists will evaluate the performance of the seeker, navigation and control system, structural capability and aerodynamic vibrations during the captive flight trials. These will be followed by ground testing and the missile will be fired from Su-30 during the actual flight trial by year-end. Instead of thrust propulsion, the missile uses dual pulse propulsion system as in the case of LR-SAM. The dual pulse propulsion will widen the envelope as well as the engagement capability of the missile. After coasting the missile for the required duration by firing the first pulse, the second pulse will be initiated just before interception of the target or during the terminal phase, the sources added.

The entire missile is being developed indigenously, including the seeker. The missile will be inducted in about two years after conducting a number of developmental trials.

Only a few countries, including the U.S. and Germany, have ARMs at present, the sources added.

The dual pulse propulsion system could be configured with other air-to-surface and air-to-air missiles, the sources added.

Meanwhile, the induction of LR-SAM (Long Range Surface-to-Air Missile), jointly developed by India and Israel, will begin September-October this year. It was successfully test-fired from INS Kolkata to intercept an aerial target last year and the missile is slated to be launched from warships, INS Kochi and INS Chennai, for similar trials later this year.

----------

if it has to be mounted on tejas,,, i assume it must be light enough,,,
some thing makes me think almost all airborne systems developed by DRDO are keeping Tejas in mind.

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Mar 2016 21:07

jayasimha wrote:...
if it has to be mounted on tejas,,, i assume it must be light enough,,,
some thing makes me think almost all airborne systems developed by DRDO are keeping Tejas in mind.

That's the way forward. Next iteration should think about internal weapons bay of FGFA, AMCA and UCAV. The length of munitions need to less than 4-meters.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 14 Mar 2016 11:27

Test of Agni 1:
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/tech/india- ... 15933.html

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 14 Mar 2016 14:46

IN MISSILES WE TRUST, Financial Express, Mumbai 12.03.2016. A write up + pictures of the anti-air missiles being inducted/planned.

"A SINGLE S400 SYSTEM DEPLOYED IN UDHAMPUR WILL COVER A MAJOR CHUNK OF PAKISTANI AIR FORCE BASES AND CITIES FROM LAHORE, ISLAMABAD AND PESHAWAR TO SARGODHA".

Pakis will have to fight from Afghanistan!

(I have a picture of this page but don't know how to upload it)

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 14 Mar 2016 15:41

VKumar wrote:IN MISSILES WE TRUST, Financial Express, Mumbai 12.03.2016. A write up + pictures of the anti-air missiles being inducted/planned.

"A SINGLE S400 SYSTEM DEPLOYED IN UDHAMPUR WILL COVER A MAJOR CHUNK OF PAKISTANI AIR FORCE BASES AND CITIES FROM LAHORE, ISLAMABAD AND PESHAWAR TO SARGODHA".

Pakis will have to fight from Afghanistan!

(I have a picture of this page but don't know how to upload it)

saar,

http://abload.de/

or

http://imgur.com/

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 14 Mar 2016 16:50

We've talked about this before.. Not sure what the article in the Financial Express says.. If we ever deploy the S400, we will never use the hyper expensive 40N6 missiles (which has a range of 400Km) for every Bundar and Langur that takes off from Porkland. The kill zone for the S-400 for most part of its operation would be around 200kms. The 40N6 would be reserved to keep their AWACS and tankers far away from the borders, and this of course severely limits the PAF's options.

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Mar 2016 16:58

nits · Post by **nits** » 14 Mar 2016 17:27

VKumar wrote:IN MISSILES WE TRUST, Financial Express, Mumbai 12.03.2016. A write up + pictures of the anti-air missiles being inducted/planned.

"A SINGLE S400 SYSTEM DEPLOYED IN UDHAMPUR WILL COVER A MAJOR CHUNK OF PAKISTANI AIR FORCE BASES AND CITIES FROM LAHORE, ISLAMABAD AND PESHAWAR TO SARGODHA".

Pakis will have to fight from Afghanistan!

(I have a picture of this page but don't know how to upload it)

Can you please post the link to the article sir

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 14 Mar 2016 19:27

Tomorrow canisterised Agni-V test..

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 14 Mar 2016 19:39

It is always like this. starts with small patakhas and cumulates in big Deepavli.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 14 Mar 2016 19:42

@dinesha: there is no A-5 test tomorrow. I guess what Hemant Rout said would be an A-5 test turned out to be today's A-I test instead. Maybe diplomatic pressure from the usual suspects convinced the current GoI to defer it once again. On this front, the NaMo sarkar is no better than the UPA. It may even turn out to be worse than the UPA on this matter of IRBM/ICBM testing. This neglect of such a critical national security asset for the sake of a``strategic partnership" with you know who is naive at best and criminal/treasonous at worst.

The problem is that political parties in Bharat are a mix of lobbies, most of which have extra national loyalties of some or the other kind. While the so called secular parties are a mix of pro-west and pakictan zindabad elements, the BJP is a mix of nationalists and pro west elements with the latter still having an upper hand. Large sections of the BJP probably believe in India becoming a SoKo like entity. As menioned above, the so called secularists are one rung worse.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Mar 2016 21:15

Testing a missile has a lot of work before it. So its not easy to just switch a test. Wish folks don't write off the cuff bakwas.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 14 Mar 2016 21:25

Forget Rout. If everything turns out fine .. it is scheduled for tomorrow.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 14 Mar 2016 21:29

Ramdas ji,

If an Agni V is tested in the coming days, will you please cut down on 'bowing down to US, disregarding national security' stuff ?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 14 Mar 2016 21:48

sudhan wrote:We've talked about this before.. Not sure what the article in the Financial Express says.. If we ever deploy the S400, we will never use the hyper expensive 40N6 missiles (which has a range of 400Km) for every Bundar and Langur that takes off from Porkland. The kill zone for the S-400 for most part of its operation would be around 200kms. The 40N6 would be reserved to keep their AWACS and tankers far away from the borders, and this of course severely limits the PAF's options.

That assumes that the 40N6 is operational, and if so also open for export. There hasn't been one spotted in the wild yet, nor have the launchers appeared from what i know. First indication of its export status may come from the Chinese order once it materializes. Regardless, as mentioned above radar horizon would play an important role for all such missiles but more so for the ones that really on SAG or TVM form or targeting in conjunction with the main acquisition radar. Even though the N6 is said to be active it still would require cross radar (and it gets complicated when those radars are made by different nations) downlink compatibility. What has not yet been established or demonstrated is the ability for the TVM missiles to hand off from various sensors with different capabilities and this is extremely hard for SAG or TVM setups to acheive.

The Patriot had a similar problem which the PAC-3 solves since its active and largely radar agnostic (currently 2 different non patriot radars are capable of handling the missile (Sentinel and X/JLENS) with more expected to be cleared over the next few years. This will be true for higher altitude deployments as well..Not all radars come with compact power supply that works at higher altitudes and especially not the very large FCR's that accompany dual use air and missile defense systems..In the US the marines had a requirement with the G/ATOR for the power supply at very high altitudes, and this radar will also be able to int he future guide Patriot missiles (Mainly the 3 and whatever replaces the 2)..A federated primary acquisition radar setup needs to go away and the S500 may well do this unless it focuses almost exclusively or very heavily on ABM.

That is the capability to shoot for and India already has some very capable interceptors to do this. The S400 should remain an ABM system and ONLY acquired if a desi version is facing delays and/or if the western ABM systems pose acquisition challenges both cost, technical and political. If an ABM system is required one needs to be developed (already happening) , or a dedicated ABM system for large metros acquired..A dual use system that lacks the sensor reach to target challenging BM tracks like a dedicated system would not only be sub-optimal but would eat into both indigenous ABM research, and indigenous Air defense research. The LR-SAM is a great interceptor to base a dedicated, integrated air-defense on..You can make it larger if required but really the focus should be on cross-sensor compatibility. Something like that would definitely begin the question the need for the anti air aspect of the S400..And then there are 100% indigenous interceptors that can back up in large amounts

My 2 cents..

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 14 Mar 2016 22:36

@dinesha @nirav: we will see if there is an A-5 test in the next one week. If so, I will gladly eat crow.

@nirav: ``coming days" should be reasonably time bound. Bharat Karnad has already said that the A-5 was ready for testing since last october. Still no test. One must figure out why.

@ramana: This is true for the first two tests or so. Now that there have been 3 successful tests in a row, it is time to get over with a final canisterized test and induct it in numbers ASAP. Especially when this system more than any other will keep PRC off any hot conflict (but only when deployed in adequate numbers). Given what Bharat Karnad has said about A-5 bein ready for testing since last October, a 5 month delay for non technical reasons is what seems to be happening (which is not good).

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 14 Mar 2016 22:43

If there is political pressure the DRDO will not sit quiet, there will be calibrated leaks to ratchet up the pressure on the GoI. The RLV has also been delayed for a while but there are real scientific reasons. We don't know what it is yet and better safe that sorry. China is already covered by A-2/3 and 4.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 14 Mar 2016 22:57

ramdas wrote:@dinesha: there is no A-5 test tomorrow. I guess what Hemant Rout said would be an A-5 test turned out to be today's A-I test instead. Maybe diplomatic pressure from the usual suspects convinced the current GoI to defer it once again. On this front, the NaMo sarkar is no better than the UPA. It may even turn out to be worse than the UPA on this matter of IRBM/ICBM testing. This neglect of such a critical national security asset for the sake of a``strategic partnership" with you know who is naive at best and criminal/treasonous at worst. .

Rout tweeted for A-1 test yesterday and did not mention A-5.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 14 Mar 2016 23:10

@jhujar: rout mentioned about an A-5 testdue march 15 on March 4 or March 5.

@bheeshma: there have been reports since Feb beginning about an impending A-5 test. This has not yet materialized. A-2 covers cities like Chengdu/Chongqing only from NE India. A-3/4 cover several cities from states lke MP/CG/JH/Bihar. These are still systems that would require some time for preparation,etc. which PRC with its huge fleet of satellites has some chance of spotting. Canisterized A-5's deployed in numbers along with the K-4 give a more substantial insurance. Given PRCs sudden slowdown, there is every chance that they may seek a external diversion. A-5 like systems that are operational are must to avoid becoming the target of such a diversion.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Mar 2016 00:16

ramdas, Look at past Agni launches and see the window for yourself.

It could be related to that.

I would love to see the fuze functioning of the present A-I test.

PRC has many other problems right now.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 15 Mar 2016 00:40

Shouldn't A-1 be replaced by Shaurya soon? Its lighter and easily transportable compared to A-1.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Mar 2016 22:03

Ramdas, You were right. @bharatkarnad wrote the same thing that A-V which was scheduled was switched for an A-I test. The directive came from PMO due to upcoming visit to US by Modi between 31 March -1 April.

The subject is a NPT conference that he has to attend.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 15 Mar 2016 22:10

Modi is showing a 5.6 inch chest. Some one should tweet him that.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Mar 2016 22:45

Not really. it could be tactical. Besides window is open till MAy.
Already two tests have occurred for the Cannister version. So just a matter of time.

Its the first off that is iffy.

BTW, A-1, A-5, and K-4 the payloads are 1, 1.5 and 2 tonnes.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 15 Mar 2016 22:51

I have seen K-4 payload being claimed as 2.5 tonne.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 15 Mar 2016 23:29

Also there is no way an A5 test going to happen during an world cup being played in India

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 15 Mar 2016 23:55

Whats the Agni V got to do with the world cup ? and if it does have something to do with it, why doesnt Agni 1 have that same thing ?!

there was mention of PM being invited for the canisterized Agni V launch. dates might have been adjusted as per his sched. Incredible speculation around the test.

Id like to remind folks, the test if done right nor,tomorrow or day after does not mean 100s of Agni Vs suddenly come up. Production *will* take time and operationalizing will take time too.

And since its a test, there are chances of it not succeeding too. Might delay the deployment, but it *will* get deployed in significant numbers when ready.

5.6", bowing down to US pressure,delaying = treasonus - this is chutiyapa of the tallest order. I request posters to stop this mindless dhoti shivering and acknowledge that the ICBM- Agni V is no sivakasi fireworks product. Such complex engineering testing & production takes time. Must hold onto their dhotis and not continously talk crap when the program is going through its most crucial phase.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Mar 2016 00:28

nirav, There is a ten year track record of seemingly nationalist babus in the crucial ministries. hence the angst.
Look at the former MEA secy sitting in Washington DC and preaching foreign policy advice to Modi.

Also "just because you are paranoid doesn't mean there is no one out to get you!"