IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 22 Mar 2016 19:13

No point..
Last edited by Karan M on 22 Mar 2016 20:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby ldev » 22 Mar 2016 20:07



Watch this 5 month old interview with Manohar Parrikar especially the part from 4.20 onward. He says paraphrasing," Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Similarly monopoly results in poor quality and absolute monopoly results in absolutely poor quality". I think based on this there is no doubt that there will be private sector competitor for HAL which will be a JV. If cost is an issue, and as the Rafale saga shows, cost is definitely an issue, then both the Rafale and the Typhoon are out of the running, based on their super premium pricing. Also, the IAF and MOD want to reduce Russian dependency with the overwhelming numbers of the SU30 fleet. So by the process of elimination it's either Boeing or LM as the likely foreign JV partner. Also the taunt made by the unnamed French official in the Ajai Shukla interview where he said," Go ahead and manufacture the F16 and supply it to Pakistan also". All point to the fact that there are discussions underway with the US companies on the JV.

As far as sanctions are concerned, I think that other than Israel, every other nation will put a freeze on arms supplies on India in some form or fashion should war break out. In recent years with the Russians having their back to the wall on the economic front due to the price of oil and western sanctions, there is no guarantee that they will not stay neutral in the event of an India-China war.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_22733 » 22 Mar 2016 20:33

The solution to "sanctions" is hard but achievable. We need to achieve monopoly in a few critical technologies that are used by every defense manufacturer and do this by hook or by crook.

Make them dependent on us as well. A mil-ind complex is a must for such things to happen.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby ldev » 22 Mar 2016 22:04

Cosmo_R wrote:
shiv wrote:I think Dassault will back down. The longer they stonewall, the worse things will be down the line for them. An India purchase if given at the right price and right conditions will keep them is business for a long time to come. They are facing a new India whose lawyers are reading and writing the fine print.


The longer they stonewall, the louder the cry from the IAF about depleting squadron strength. Point is the delay hurts us more at this stage than them. And it is this current stage where we don't have plausible alternatives that makes for a negotiating disadvantage for us.


Watch that Parrikar interview I posted above. At about 4.00, he says," If I am hungry this afternoon, I need food immediately and must get it now, but I have to also plan for food for tomorrow, day after tomorrow. etc. etc.". Now remember this interview was conducted more than 5 months ago when it looked like the MMRCA logjam had been broken by Modi fast tracking 36 Rafale. I take this to mean that "this afternoon's immediate hunger", would be met via the 36 Rafale imports, and "tomorrow's and day after tomorrow's food" would be met via establishing JVs. But after 5 months of a stalemate on the Rafale front, it looks like "tomorrow's food" may be on the table faster than "today's food". :)

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby ramana » 22 Mar 2016 23:43

Dassault got uppity after setting up JV with Ambani gang.
They thought they can throw their weight around.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby srai » 23 Mar 2016 03:10

ldev wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:...

The longer they stonewall, the louder the cry from the IAF about depleting squadron strength. Point is the delay hurts us more at this stage than them. And it is this current stage where we don't have plausible alternatives that makes for a negotiating disadvantage for us.


Watch that Parrikar interview I posted above. At about 4.00, he says," If I am hungry this afternoon, I need food immediately and must get it now, but I have to also plan for food for tomorrow, day after tomorrow. etc. etc.". Now remember this interview was conducted more than 5 months ago when it looked like the MMRCA logjam had been broken by Modi fast tracking 36 Rafale. I take this to mean that "this afternoon's immediate hunger", would be met via the 36 Rafale imports, and "tomorrow's and day after tomorrow's food" would be met via establishing JVs. But after 5 months of a stalemate on the Rafale front, it looks like "tomorrow's food" may be on the table faster than "today's food". :)


By that logic, DM also had mentioned Su-30MKI would be a viable alternative along with improving serviceability rates of existing types ;) So that is "today's food" and "tomorrow's food" figuratively speaking. It doesn't have to be necessarily one of the MMRCA contestants.

Parrikar outlines alternatives to Rafale fighter
13th January 2015
...
A fortnight after declaring that the IAF could make do with additional Sukhoi-30MKI fighters --- which HAL builds in Nashik --- in case “complications” in the negotiations were not resolved, Parrikar has gone further in outlining how the IAF could function were it decided not to procure the Rafale.

Speaking to a television channel, Headlines Today, on Monday, Parrikar said the Su-30MKI offered a viable alternative, especially given that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) was upgrading and overhauling the fighter and equipping it with state-of-the-art electronic warfare systems.

Said Parrikar: “Sukhoi-30 choice is always there. What I mean to say is: upgrade the Sukhoi-30, make it more capable.”


Dismissing concerns about the IAF’s falling fighter numbers, Parrikar stated that the IAF could put more fighters into the sky by improving the serviceability rate of its current fleet of 35 squadrons.

Business Standard has earlier reported (October 23, 2014 Govt takes note of Su-30MKI’s poor “serviceability”) that barely half of the IAF’s premier Russian fighters are available for combat missions at any given time. Since then, due to HAL’s efforts, that has risen to 58 per cent, still below the global norm of 80-85 per cent.

Parrikar made it clear that the IAF needed to look at the issue of fighter costs. He said, “It is not always… go and purchase it. A cost effective purchase is also important.”

Declining to reveal the actual cost of buying the Rafale, Parrikar said, “Whether it is Rs 40,000 crore, or Rs 50,000 crore or Rs 1 lakh crore, we are speaking about 50 per cent of the capital budget of the defence services.
...

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby NRao » 23 Mar 2016 03:58

An article in the latest AWST claims that the IAF seems to have made all arrangements for the Rafale .................... before the price was agreed upon. The Rafale is part of the IAF, as far as the IAF is concerned. "No pulling back" - IAF.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby fanne » 23 Mar 2016 04:34

hmm you mean no plan B

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby srai » 23 Mar 2016 04:57

In another 3 years, HAL's Su-30MKI line will be shutting down. Given that lead times of 24-36 months are typically required, the repeat orders need to come in by next year. Otherwise, a viable Plan B is getting thrown under the bus too. Only saving grace would be LCA line picking up pace during that time.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby chetak » 23 Mar 2016 05:02

Will the IAF not get its Rafales?

With the Rafale fighter deal stuck over price, can the prime minister step in and find a way out for both countries?
Claude Arpi examines the issue.

During last week's Indian Air Force drill ('Iron Fist Exercise 2016') in Pokhran, Rajasthan, attended by President Pranab Mukherjee and Prime Minister Narendra Modi, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha declared: 'This demonstration is the tip of an iceberg when compared to the overall capability of the air force.'

Well, it is a melting iceberg, with the Indian air fleet rapidly reducing.

'The IAF has flagged concerns about the shortage of fighter jets,' the air chief admitted, 'and the process for the acquisition of 36 French Rafale fighter aircraft is still underway.'

What does 'underway' mean?

Let us do a flashback to January 25, 2016.

As Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian signed a MoU for the purchase of 36 Rafale aircraft, President Francois Hollande of France said to the national and international media at Hyderabad House, that the 'real' deal would be inked 'dans les jours prochains (in the coming days).'

Later Dassault Aviation, the aircraft manufacturer, clarified that it would take about four weeks. The French officials, including Le Drian, accompanying the French president during his State visit were quite optimistic that this could be done.

On February 18, during an interview with Karan Thapar on the India Today channel, Parrikar stated: 'Price is the only issue left now.. an agreement on 50 per cent offsets has been reached.'

News appeared that Dassault would have quoted around $9 billion (around Rs 60,300 crore/Rs 603 billion) for the 36 jets while South Block was expecting a much cheaper price.

The final deal would include two types of missiles and bombs, training of pilots and two base facilities for the planes.

Incidentally, the latter creates a huge problem for the French Air Force, already overstretched with a growing number of overseas military interventions and a shrinking budget.

The Rafale deal, if it comes through, like the previous ones signed with Egypt and Qatar, is not a boon for the FAF, which will be responsible for the training and setting up of the bases. It will be a huge success for the rather unpopular French president and France's economy.

As talks were going on, a report in the Indian press pointed out to several loopholes, apparently earlier overlooked by the Modi government.

The Union law ministry would object to some clauses in the January MoU; they could 'compromise' India's interests, it says.

First let us recall that the initial Request for Information had been issued in 2001. Fifteen years ago! The Request for Proposal was only issued in 2007, as the then defence minister A K Antony wanted to add new clauses, such as the total life-cycle costs, in the Indian defence procurement policy.

The 'complications' had started. Finally, in January 2012, the French firm Dassault Aviation was selected for supplying 126 planes to the IAF.

In April 2015, realising the difficulty with the transfer of technology to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd and to avoid going back to the starting blocks, Modi, during a visit to Paris, opted for 36 'off-the-shelf' planes only.

The French had probably not realised that 'off-the-shelf' can be rather complicated in India.

The main sticking points raised by the law ministry, touched upon the issues of liability, bank guarantees, arbitration and a higher-than-usual offset clause.

A senior official involved with the matter (how a babu can freely speak to journalists is a mystery which should be inquired into) told The Indian Express: 'While many senior government functionaries, including those in the ministry of defence, have favoured out-of-box thinking to take the deal forward, when we examined the draft inter-governmental agreement and the draft supply protocols, we were left wondering as to how India could agree to all the stipulations suggested by the French side.'

'In our opinion, the two documents were not drafted with the interest of the Government of India in mind.'

What is strange is that while the minister says that only the price needs to be discussed, the babus speaks of the conditions which 'are being heavily loaded in favour of the French nation.'


The Indian Express source asserted that the French government has refused to give any bank guarantees; instead, it has offered to provide a 'comfort letter' from its prime minister. It is apparently what was accepted during Hollande's visit to Delhi in January.

The babu&'s mindset is also manifest when it objects that while the deal had agreed on Geneva (Switzerland) for arbitration proceedings, the MoD should have pressed for having India as the seat of arbitration.

All this just shows the bureaucrats' deep frustration: they had not been kept in the loop; as a matter of fact, it was precisely why the prime minister decided for an 'out-of-the box' solution for 36 instead of 126 jets.

On March 10, Defense News, a usually well-informed Web site, reported that Dassault Aviation was negotiating with Delhi the possibility to build 90 more units with potential local partners.

The Web site quoted the company's chairman Eric Trappier saying: 'Dassault seeks to set up "a real partnership" with Indian industry rather a conventional offset, which requires investing in unrelated sectors.'

'That partnership approach would see Safran, Thales and other French suppliers working with local partners on the Rafale if New Delhi agreed the order for 36 and followed up with a further 90 units.'

'That second order was needed as the former figure was too small to justify a local build.' In other words a 'Make in India' scheme.

In the meantime, Dassault is talking to Canada, which may drop out from the F-35 programme with the US and also Switzerland trying to replace its F-5 and F-18, as well as Belgium, the United Arab Emirates and Malaysia.

The problem for India, as well as for other potential buyers, is that the annual output of the assembly line of the Rafale workshop near Bordeaux is 11 units, or one a month, (in August, France does not work); the output could rise by three units, if India and other countries signed up for the fighter, explained Trappier; further Dassault needs to deliver six Rafales to the FAF in 2016 and one in 2017.

A few days later, while confirming that the Rafale deal with Dassault was still on, Parrikar boasted to be a 'tough negotiator,' wanting the 'best price' for Rafale fighter jets.

It is fine to be a tough negotiator, but Parrikar should not forget that Dassault too is a hard bargainer. Further, the position of the French consortium is not the same as two years ago: Their order book is full and first ordered, first served, remains the rule.

Last week, defence analyst Ajai Shukla, commented in Business Standard: 'Paris is beginning to acknowledge the possibility that India might not buy the Rafale fighter because of sharp differences over the price, and New Delhi's insistence on enforceable guarantees regarding the fighter's delivery, performance and availability.'

Quoting a senior French official, Shukla wrote: 'If some people in the MoD do not want to allow the Rafale deal to go through, so be it. We are currently building it for Egypt and Qatar, and we could have another customer in Malaysia.'

It is clearly a poker game, with each party sending 'feelers' and vague threats though the media.

But who would be the loser if the deal does not come through?

Undoubtedly both France and India, particularity the IAF, with Air Chief Raha's melting iceberg melting further due to the change of the 'bilateral' climate.

Quite worryingly, some news, which passed unnoticed in India, created waves in France: It is the awarding of the Legion d'Honneur, the country's highest honour, to Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Nayef. It sparked a huge controversy in France.

Why honour the kingdom? The Web site Intelligence Online had perhaps the answer.

In January, it titled: 'Riyadh wants to lure Paris with a contract for the Rafale.' It quoted a source saying that Prince Mohammad bin Salman, Saudi Arabia's defence minister, appealed to Paris to submit a proposal for the supply of fighter aircraft Dassault Rafale 'in the coming weeks.'

Are 72 jets not worth a small medal?

And if the Prince decides, no bureaucrat in Riyadh will block the contract... and no problem of cash either.

That would mean that the 'Indian deal'is further postponed for several years.

Let us hope that once again the prime minister stepS in and find a way which will be a win-win solution for both countries.

Claude Arpi

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby fanne » 23 Mar 2016 05:03

Given our state of IAF, we should plan for at least 400 SU 30 MKIs. Heavily ingeniousize them so they they are sanction/poor support proof. 200 MKI on each front will be a nice deterrent/offensive force.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cosmo_R » 23 Mar 2016 05:12

fanne wrote:Given our state of IAF, we should plan for at least 400 SU 30 MKIs. Heavily ingeniousize them so they they are sanction/poor support proof. 200 MKI on each front will be a nice deterrent/offensive force.


With 55% availability tops, I'd bank on 110 each front,further subject to availability of imported munitions they carry.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby fanne » 23 Mar 2016 05:26

Nope, this where heavy indigenous effort come into play. About ammunitions, if you have not noticed, we have the source code, we can fire our own astra and smart a-g. Develop lots of them of your own and stock up. This plane can deliver for us, send the 9 billion for 36 rafael to get 130 more SU30MKI developed from raw material (easier said than done, but doable)

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby srai » 23 Mar 2016 06:01

Cosmo_R,

With Su-30MKI, India has demonstrated its ability to integrate indigenous and other non-Russian weapons (Brahmos-1, Astra, HSLD, Griffin-3 LGB, NGARM, etc) and sensors (LITENING targeting pod, EL/M-2060P SAR pod, EL/M-8222 jammer, Shiva HADF pod).

With Rafale, everything would require import from France. If India wants above weapons/sensors integrated, then that would be extra cost (note: France will need to do it) on top of whatever ridiculous amount it is paying for 36 units.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 23 Mar 2016 07:06

Frankly, considering the prices being thrown around for the rafale, one wonders if @ even 55 percent availability, the mki is still cheaper per Paisa than the French fighter.

Just think what a raffle might cost for 200 units with the kind of tot the mki has. Then add in insane upgrade costs and French weapons.

So 400 mki with 55% availability might still be cheaper than 200 rafale with 85% uptime over a period of 40 years

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_29294 » 23 Mar 2016 09:06

Rafale is a waste.

If France is not even confident enough to stand by their products with simply guarantees for 36 off the shelf planes, then forget them.

Better go for the advanced Super Hornet that have EW capabilities and can be flown off of CATOBAR carriers. Americans can also be leveraged for support on EMALS and carrier design to accommodate F-18s as well.

And Boeing will move their entire production line to India with full ToT. This can be guaranteed because they won't have a choice with the American production line already closing. Just force them to partner with TATA or some other private company group that is already in aerospace. In the long-run this will do more to setup India as a global aerospace hub rather than some assembly of parts procured from France.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby srai » 23 Mar 2016 09:46

^^^

Expecting foreigners to do this and that for India is a waste of time really. Doesn't matter if it is Rafale/EF/F-16/18; it will all end in similar manner Time to move on.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 23 Mar 2016 11:50

The problem is that under MMS,the US was given a free hand expecting much boodle in the form of arms deals.The spares,support issue with Russia hadn't been sorted out successfully either-it is being done now,add to this the desire of the IAF for the very best and nothing less.Price? The least concern.As I said a few years ago,it would come to haunt us and it has.No moolah for french birds,and no local "pigeons" either,so we have to eat humble pie-from McDonnel,Lockheed,whoever! :mrgreen:

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Vipul » 23 Mar 2016 19:45

Or Mikoyan Gurevich :mrgreen:

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_29294 » 24 Mar 2016 07:21

srai wrote:^^^

Expecting foreigners to do this and that for India is a waste of time really. Doesn't matter if it is Rafale/EF/F-16/18; it will all end in similar manner Time to move on.


Parrikar said that another fighter line would be selected by year end. He is a determined MoD whom you should not take lightly when he is committed to something. See how DPP is now finalized and 120 Tejas order contract signed. This is not like the old MoDs from the past.

So another fighter line will almost certainly be selected for MII. IAF is pushing for Rafale, but MoD has the final say. My expectation remains that it will be an American jet as Dassault refuses to guarantees of proper quality and service, something I believe aerospace giant Boeing will actually agree upon. Plus Boeing will deliver much cheaper prices and undoubtedly better ToT.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby srai » 24 Mar 2016 08:17

Another line agreement is not possible by year end. Negotiations take much longer than that.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_29294 » 24 Mar 2016 08:47

srai wrote:Another line agreement is not possible by year end. Negotiations take much longer than that.


Parrikar's direct quote was:

"we might select few aircraft to Make in India. Which one? I don't commit. But there will be at least one, may be two also."


Offers are already being made behind closed doors and presstitutes are already marketing them. Expect another fighter line to be selected with haste and then 36 months later production to begin. This should be within the new DPP framework which will be released at an upcoming Defexpo 2016 in Goa.

Biggest mistake with MMRCA was IAF declaring a winner before a legally binding contract was signed. That mistake won't be made again, MoD's statements reflect that. So we will see which line/s are selected. The only thing one can be sure of is that it won't be another Russian plane.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby shiv » 24 Mar 2016 09:05

Chakra.in wrote:.

Biggest mistake with MMRCA was IAF declaring a winner before a legally binding contract was signed.

I think facts are being forgotten and fairy tales replacing them. The IAF's mandate had nothing to do with contract signing. They were asked to test, compare and declare their choice. They did exactly as requested and handed the information to the government which then picked up the thread and started negotiations. That seems to have been forgotten all these years and 500 million forum posts later we have this theory.

Having said that this saga should also be a lesson to the armed forces about the pitfalls (to the nation) of tying up with a foreign supplier for vital arms. This is a bit like leaving one's wife in a bachelor friend's house while travelling abroad for 6 months a year.

The press reports that appear reveal the huge number of Indians in media, government and probably ex armed forces who are being paid by foreign vendors to push their wares.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Mar 2016 10:22

The Biggest mistake was MMRCA insead of the M-2000-5 deal along with future LCA orders

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 24 Mar 2016 10:39

The editorial in the New Ind. Exp called for a shakedown of the DRDO reg the Akash fiasco. A swarm of vultures is now descending upon Delhi intent upon picking tidbits from the body of the Rafale which is in the ICU. One media report today may hold out some hope,the report that the deal for 6 N-reactors with the French for Jaitapur has been signed.Knowing how many deals are interlinked,this could be a signal.Or on the other hand,it could be a means of saying goodbye to Dassault while appeasing the French!

The deafening silence over the last few months about LCA MK-1 production,etc. and little statements emanating from the IAF about its induction isn't a healthy sign.The IAF wisely decades ago,well knowing that the LCA was a "bird too far",planned the upgrade of the MIG-21 into the Bison as a stop-gap arrangement.Now another decade has passed since then and the LCA is nowhere in the skies in IAF sqd. service. This time the IAF leadership proudly advertised the fact that they have no "Plan B"! IT is well past time that if they cannot scratch their heads and figure out alternatives to the raffy,the MOD must do so asap choosing wisely a cost-effective bird that also does not destroy the LCA.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_29245 » 24 Mar 2016 10:49

brar_w wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:First flight:
MiG-29: 1977
Rafale: 1986
Gripen: 1988
Su-30: 1989
EF: 1994
SH: 1995


That means little. If we go by this, the F-22 prototype flew before the SH, does that mean much? Also, the Rafale that flew in 1988 was a lot different, and the Gripen E is a lot different from the Gripen A and the C and the Super Hornet traces its heritage back to the F/A-18 as well which rolled out in the late 1970's, and which itself was based on the Northrop YF17 that flew in 1974 .

The F-18E/F BlkII/III, Mig-35 (once it goes into series production and has a customer delivery), Rafale F3R, Gripen E, and the Typhoon Tranch 2/3 all are significantly more advanced weapons systems than their original prototypes, test articles, technology demonstrators, or parent aircraft, and all can legitimately claim to be advanced fourth or 4.5 generation fighter aircraft.



In the same way

We should look at tejas mk1 & tejas mk1a as different aircrafts

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_29294 » 24 Mar 2016 12:35

shiv wrote:
Chakra.in wrote:.

Biggest mistake with MMRCA was IAF declaring a winner before a legally binding contract was signed.

The IAF's mandate had nothing to do with contract signing. They were asked to test, compare and declare their choice. They did exactly as requested and handed the information to the government which then picked up the thread and started negotiations. That seems to have been forgotten all these years and 500 million forum posts later we have this theory.


Yes, and it was a huge mistake to conduct the tender in such a manner. There is no theory or conspiracy here, it was a mistake plain and simple. IAF declaring a winner would obviously going to impact the negotiation process, that is just common sense. Congress MoD made MMRCA a disastrous tender by separating the competitive trials, having IAF declare a sole 'winner', and only then engaging in negotiations with a single partner who was then, obviously, going to significantly increase the prices. A mistake current MoD seems not eager to make again given all the recent statements.

One can hope that the MII fighter line will be sign at the dotted line with legal guarantees to the most competitive of the four major offers; by engaging in negotiations with all partners at the same time, taking each offer seriously and giving poker face until deal is signed. Not look at a bunch of offers, declare a single winner, then enter negotiations and once again be shocked that there is a price escalation and change in commitments. AKA MMRCA 2.0.
Last edited by member_29294 on 24 Mar 2016 12:58, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby deejay » 24 Mar 2016 12:48

Aditya_V wrote:The Biggest mistake was MMRCA insead of the M-2000-5 deal along with future LCA orders


I big difference of opinion here: The biggest setback was the coming of UPA1 and the takeover of the crony defence dalals in decision making from 2004 on wards. Of course, we paid the price on many fronts because of this and not just defence.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Austin » 24 Mar 2016 13:00

^^ In the hind site , ABV was naive not to order 126 M2K-5 that IAF wanted after the Kargil war specially when M2K did quite well during Op Safed Sagar , ABV instead choose the path to least resistance politically and rejected that , The French was willing to move the entire M2K line to India and we could have built as many M2K as IAF wanted

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_29294 » 24 Mar 2016 13:22

Austin wrote:^^ In the hind site , ABV was naive not to order 126 M2K-5 that IAF wanted after the Kargil war specially when M2K did quite well during Op Safed Sagar , ABV instead choose the path to least resistance politically and rejected that , The French was willing to move the entire M2K line to India and we could have built as many M2K as IAF wanted

We can go back even further.

Mirage-2k should have bought over those Mig-29 back in the 80s.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby shiv » 24 Mar 2016 13:28

Chakra.in wrote:
Chakra.in wrote:
Biggest mistake with MMRCA was IAF declaring a winner before a legally binding contract was signed.


Yes, and it was a huge mistake to conduct the tender in such a manner. There is no theory or conspiracy here, it was a mistake plain and simple. IAF declaring a winner would obviously going to impact the negotiation process, that is just common sense. Congress MoD made MMRCA a disastrous tender by separating the competitive trials, having IAF declare a sole 'winner', and only then engaging in negotiations with a single partner who was then, obviously, going to significantly increase the prices. A mistake current MoD seems not eager to make again given all the recent statements.

Thank you for clarifying your stand. Your earlier post looks like you were blaming the IAF. You are now saying the process was a mistake. We have people lashing out and blaming all sorts of things and I was wondering why you were lashing out at the IAF for something they were tasked to do and did as asked.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_22539 » 24 Mar 2016 13:35

Philip wrote:The deafening silence over the last few months about LCA MK-1 production,etc. and little statements emanating from the IAF about its induction isn't a healthy sign.


Man what is wrong with you. SP-2 just flew. Are you ignorant or just lying on purpose?

✈Anantha Krishnan M ✈ ‏@writetake 10m10 minutes ago
#BreakingNews #Tejas SP-2 completes maiden flight successfully in Bangalore. Report soon.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby uddu » 24 Mar 2016 13:53

:rotfl: Philip is like the Kejriwal of our forum. In his posts he will keep changing the choice of aircraft that need to be imported even though preference is for Russian Maaal. :)

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 24 Mar 2016 15:52

Heaven forbid! Me "Jokeriwal"? Nein,nein! What I've been trying to do is to fathom the rationale behind these def. decisions.As far as the MMRCA contest was concerned,having single and twin-engine fighters in the same race was a huge mistake.Naturally the heavier more capable range,payload,etc birds walked away with the top spots.Price ,budget was also not a determining factor for the acquisition,the IAF imagining that whatever it selected would be bought,thus no "Plan B".

What the IAF should've done a decade earlier was to have added extra sqds of both MIG-29 and M2Ks to the fleet.The MiG was found to be better than the M2K in internal exercises (AM Masand in Vayu) at least in air combat,why the Paki F-16s shied away from them during Kargil. 2-3 sqds of each would've not cost very much and insulated the IAF from retiring MIG-21/27s,even as the Bison upgrade was in the works.That would've allowed the IAF to concentrate upon acquiring a stealth FGFA for the future instead of another type to induct,with the LCA hopefully in production.

The situ now is quite bizarre. An unaffordable choice (Rafale),the French looking out for other buyers as the oil prices start to climb,the LCA production struggling to get airborne,and we find ourselves looking "back to the future" (F-16/F-18s),pardon the pun! :rotfl:
The Pakis and Chinese must be shivering in the skins!

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 24 Mar 2016 16:08

We are not looking at F16s and F18s Philip sir. Unless you have some real info rather than new reports from Lokheed !

IAF wanted Mirage 2000-5 as a follow up buy of Mirage 2000s. 2 Joint Secys in MoD refused and wanted dharmic tender and competition. So MMCRA was born and mandated by the govt and it was done as the govt wanted. We couldn't cinch the price as AKA wouldn't take any decisions. Same case with every other procurement.

Linking MMCRA to Tejas is disingenuous. Completely different class and roles. I have just finished a long analysis of where to base Tejas given its combat radius. It was never meant to be a MMCRA. Its doing its job Philip and its needed in big numbers. Yes its taken time and production has been slow but that's how our entire MoD and bureaucratic heavy defense system works.

The latest reports from HAL seem positive. Tejas is a fine aircraft and has momentum. Need to productionise it in big scale.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 24 Mar 2016 16:10

Tell me honestly. What do you really want in terms of alternatives to Rafale. Spell out a few options with costs taking into account our op needs and plans.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Arunkumar » 24 Mar 2016 16:28

^^Buy 126 Mig-29++

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Kakarat » 24 Mar 2016 17:04

Considering the price factor the only options available are Mig-29M/Mig-35, F-16 Block 60/70 & F-18E/F. But personally I am little uncomfortable with US aircrafts because of F-16s supply to Pakistan and End-User Verification

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karthik S » 24 Mar 2016 17:07

How about more MKIs. Order 4 more squadrons and be done with this.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Pratyush » 24 Mar 2016 17:09

Alternative to mmrca. Additional su 30 and tejas.


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