Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

srai · Post by **srai** » 31 Mar 2016 18:57

DRDO QRSAM sounds like it may be Akash Mk.2 version?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Mar 2016 19:33

Its a completely new system. See ref to x band radar.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 31 Mar 2016 20:26

Thanx Karan it is very interesting information. QRSAM may fulfill the requirement of QRSAM, SRSAM, LLLQRM and even VSHORAD for all the three Services. It will also cause lot of Kujli in the unmentionables of Israeli & French Pimps. I guess in coming 2 years, QRSAM will take over the low end upto 30km, Akash NG at 50km+ the medium end, AAD at 100km+ medium high while AD-1 & 2 with range of 200-400km the super high end. Pakistan ab tera kya hoga??

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Mar 2016 20:57

I wish Akash NG was 100km+ and actually replaced the MRSAM..

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Mar 2016 21:28

7 More Akash squadrons for IAF confirmedd.

During the year, DAC approvals has been
accorded for six BrahMos systems and 89
missiles for Delhi and Talwar Class ships;
Telemedicine for Indian Navy; additional
7 squadrons (14 firing units) of indigenous
Akash Missile System for IAF;

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 31 Mar 2016 21:34

Gyan wrote:Thanx Karan it is very interesting information. QRSAM may fulfill the requirement of QRSAM, SRSAM, LLLQRM and even VSHORAD for all the three Services. It will also cause lot of Kujli in the unmentionables of Israeli & French Pimps. I guess in coming 2 years, QRSAM will take over the low end upto 30km, Akash NG at 50km+ the medium end, AAD at 100km+ medium high while AD-1 & 2 with range of 200-400km the super high end. Pakistan ab tera kya hoga??

Pakistan says - kya hoga ? I will continue using my cost less and unlimited supply of 'non state actors' and entering and attacking your civilian and military targets. And then send my investigation team

I will continue tying up your troops in Kashmir at no cost to myself and if you do react (highly unlikely) I will threaten nuclear and your establishment will buy it.

Sorry its my frustration with our 'nationalist govt 'coming out. Of course its good news that QRSAM is being developed and that we are looking at S400.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 31 Mar 2016 22:00

Pakis simply don't have the aukat. Few agents in balochistan will be enough for them. All these are for their tallel and deepel blothels.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 31 Mar 2016 22:38

I hope the QRSAM is canisterized

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 31 Mar 2016 22:42

The QRSAM range of 30km gives hope that its engagement altitude can be expected to be 15-18km and will be a good and superior replacement to Akash mk1 while Akash mk1 will graduate to Akash NG with 50km range.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 31 Mar 2016 22:43

Mihir wrote:You're right. Long range naval target acquisition and tracking is an incredibly tough problem to crack

Mihir, Cain: Even 290 Km is over the horizon. Yes, 1000 Km is even more. But we have P-8Is & Rukmini radar and are slowly but surely building our network centric capabilities. So, I don't consider a Nirbhay based AShM far-fetched

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 01 Apr 2016 00:05

IMHO the Army version simply makes more sense as you need not equip the launcher with a separate engine and fuel for powering the hydraulics and like. The air force does not need the launcher to be very mobile, but i guess it is also more expensive than the army unit.

I am totally flummoxed by the Tatra chassis though.

srai wrote:
srin wrote:What happened to the Akash on tracked chassis ? I thought that was the army variant to protect corps in action. Now, the army version also seems to be using truck as carrier like the AF.
I think the tracked version has been abandoned.

Truck-mounted Army launcher is quite different from the AirForce version. Army's version is mounted permanently on a 8x8 high mobility truck whereas the Air Force version is more of a trailer based with the option to dismount the launcher in a static position.

Air Force

Army

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 01 Apr 2016 00:09

Cain Marko wrote:...Same cannot be said for a Nirbhay launched @ its max range (1000km) or even @ 300km. By the time it arrives in the vicinity of the target, it would have traveled a long ways.

If subsonics have to travel very long ranges (brahmos and greater), they would need to be continuously updated by a sensor in the loop like an MPAA, which means the said platform would have to hang around for quite some time. Even if this was possible, it is still impractical because the moment the target ship is aware of the MPAA, chances would reduce...

My guess is that it is for this reason that sub-sonic cruise missiles have never had ranges much more than 125km. IIRC, the USN was tinkering with a 240km Harpoon and some kind of LRASM - > 500NM . But then, no other country has the kind of sensor saturation that the USN has.

Anyway, this is mostly guesswork - the point I was making was in response to a post that the Nirbhay could be used as an AshM @ v.long ranges. TSarkar sir would probably have much to say...

You are quite right on the challenges for a long range AShM. The USN experience with Tomahawk AShM is a good comparison.

https://news.usni.org/2016/02/18/west-u ... ng-in-2021

The Navy had briefly fielded an anti-ship Tomahawk in the 1990s but the lower fidelity of contemporary sensors made the missile risky to use at long ranges for fear of hitting an unintended target.

John · Post by **John** » 01 Apr 2016 02:47

An Astra with booster can easily achieve that range of 25 km and dual pulse does not mean lower speed. Barak 8 speed is around mach 4-5.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 01 Apr 2016 02:52

You are quite right on the challenges for a long range AShM. The USN experience with Tomahawk AShM is a good comparison.

A few months ago I had posted a video talk of a senior ONR person discussing this very topic. They were very confident that the Tomahawk would hit. Just not sure exactly what. However now that they have NIFC-CA and LOR is a legitimate way, being proven they are revisiting the concept with the LRASM-A (300-350 nautical mile missile range) and the new Tomahawk with a dual Active-Passive AESA seeker and a 2-way UHF SATCOM.

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Apr 2016 03:12

sankum wrote:The QRSAM range of 30km gives hope that its engagement altitude can be expected to be 15-18km and will be a good and superior replacement to Akash mk1 while Akash mk1 will graduate to Akash NG with 50km range.

Akash Mk.1 has met the requirements and proven its capability in various IAF exercises. The advantage is that it is super cheap in comparison to other SAM systems and is in mass production mode. Useful for filling in the numbers in the short run while other more advanced SAMs with seekers are being developed--seem to be still 5+ years away from mass production/induction. An immediate need is to replace/augment the old Pechoras, which most of them have run out of their useful shelf lives. There's always a MLU in the future where the Mk.1 would go in for extensive upgrades--all the more easier since it's indigenous. As the old cliché goes, "bird in hand is better than two in the bush."

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 01 Apr 2016 05:41

MOD REPORT 2015-16

7.38 BDL is putting constant and
determined efforts towards indigenisation of
ATGMs being manufactured with an objective
of increasing self-reliance, reduction of
foreign exchange and cost reduction. BDL
has achieved indigenization upto 90%,
76.4% and 71% in respect of Konkurs-M
ATGM, Invar ATGM and Milan-2T ATGM
respectively.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 01 Apr 2016 16:46

Army to have 2 more regiments of Brahmos missile operational in 15 days: Manohar Parrikar.

Two more regiments of the short-range supersonic cruise missile, Brahmos, will be inducted into Army within next fifteen days, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said here today.

"The process of induction of two more regiments (of Brahmos missile) in the Indian Army is in the final stage and within 15 days, these regiments will be inducted in Indian Army," he said.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Apr 2016 18:00

vcsekhar wrote:I read this report and thought that something was off in the reporting.
Earlier this month i had attended a DRDO vendor meet where they were asking for SME's to come forward to make parts for their missile projects. The numbers estimated for the Akash system are 30 per month presently and moving to 50-60 per month by the end of the year. It was also interesting to note that the cost of the actual missile is less than 20% of the cost of the systems.
There are multiple private companies that have been given responsibility for large sub-assembly production so that BDL can increase final assembly rates.

All of the currently missile systems LRSAM, MRSAM, AKASH etc are in going to be in full scale production very soon. The amount of work done by DRDO is just phenomenal and they have taken the right track of collaborating when required (not reinventing the wheel) and developing themselves when tech already exists.

uddu wrote:See how one buffoon puts out a propoganda piece and how the remaining monkeys are copying and pasting it.

http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/blo ... 70549.html

http://www.oneindia.com/india/massive-b ... 55307.html

http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/blo ... 70549.html

And strange thing is everyone is quoting the buffoon report.

Can this be brought to the MOD and defense minister notice how propaganda is unleashed against indigenous weapon systems. Similar attempts were made just few days against Tejas during Iron Fist 2016. These are not one off reports but repeated misinformation campaign against indigenous weapon system.

To confirm what you said. IAF has effectively doubled the order book for Akash.

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 01 Apr 2016 20:01

The propaganda against home made systems are aimed at whom? The mango people care lo much less so it is not for political mileage. The govt is giving thumbs down to these reports and not getting influenced by them. The armed forces have to tow the govt line.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 01 Apr 2016 20:13

All the news are obviously for the people. Ask any aam abdul on the ground about Arjun and he will tell you that it's not a good tank and is overweight. How it got to him in this way is through the dirty media that was dishing out such propaganda for a long time. What's the advantage for those arms lobbies is that the common man will not question the imports. The people/also the normal jawans/afsars (not directly linked to procurement) are made to think that indigenous systems are not good and hence we are importing weaponry by paying huge costs. Even if there is trouble/problem with foreign imported stuff, the people will not question it, because they are made to believe that there is no other option. This is how propaganda work.

Nowadays there is a change because some journalists are questioning these kind of reports and telling the truth to the people. Hence there is a change happening in terms of perception and more and more people are aware of what's happening. People can figure out pretty well, things happening but still the perception change is not complete and it may take time to reach every aam abdul.

John · Post by **John** » 01 Apr 2016 20:55

Karan M wrote:7 More Akash squadrons for IAF confirmedd.

During the year, DAC approvals has been
accorded for six BrahMos systems and 89
missiles for Delhi and Talwar Class ships;
Telemedicine for Indian Navy; additional
7 squadrons (14 firing units) of indigenous
Akash Missile System for IAF;

Missed this post to point out those are first batch of Talwar which confirms the UVLS in talwar are also compatible with Brahmos. Also based on numbers i would suspect delhi would be fitted with 8 brahmos in inclined launchers. As i mentioned earlier Uran missiles are likely to be slowly phased out as they NEOL.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 01 Apr 2016 21:38

The Rajputs have the brahmos, so I am sure Delhis will also. Hopefully they will get better SAM's too.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Apr 2016 21:57

uddu wrote:All the news are obviously for the people. Ask any aam abdul on the ground about Arjun and he will tell you that it's not a good tank and is overweight. How it got to him in this way is through the dirty media that was dishing out such propaganda for a long time. What's the advantage for those arms lobbies is that the common man will not question the imports. The people/also the normal jawans/afsars (not directly linked to procurement) are made to think that indigenous systems are not good and hence we are importing weaponry by paying huge costs. Even if there is trouble/problem with foreign imported stuff, the people will not question it, because they are made to believe that there is no other option. This is how propaganda work.

Nowadays there is a change because some journalists are questioning these kind of reports and telling the truth to the people. Hence there is a change happening in terms of perception and more and more people are aware of what's happening. People can figure out pretty well, things happening but still the perception change is not complete and it may take time to reach every aam abdul.

Exactly. Everyone saw the c-system in action moment LCA Mk1A was ordered. To discredit Modi and Make in India most media jerks ran failed LCA forced on IAF reports. It doesn't take much to even figure out who the scumbags were.

John · Post by **John** » 01 Apr 2016 22:31

Bheeshma wrote:The Rajputs have the brahmos, so I am sure Delhis will also. Hopefully they will get better SAM's too.

They will be fitted with Barak 8 but that could be part of a different refit/MLU.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Apr 2016 23:18

John wrote:
Karan M wrote:7 More Akash squadrons for IAF confirmedd.

During the year, DAC approvals has been
accorded for six BrahMos systems and 89
missiles for Delhi and Talwar Class ships;
Telemedicine for Indian Navy; additional
7 squadrons (14 firing units) of indigenous
Akash Missile System for IAF;
Missed this post to point out those are first batch of Talwar which confirms the UVLS in talwar are also compatible with Brahmos. Also based on numbers i would suspect delhi would be fitted with 8 brahmos in inclined launchers. As i mentioned earlier Uran missiles are likely to be slowly phased out as they NEOL.

Cant we life extend the Urans? Seems a waste to discard them.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Apr 2016 23:36

Prem Kumar wrote:From the same OneIndia report: A planned launch of Nirbhay with Brahmos seeker by December.

This is very, very interesting. In a Land Attack mode, it can be used for targeting high value, mobile targets. In an anti-shipping role, Nirbhay can become a Very Long Range, High subsonic AshM! The pop-up/pop-down & waypoint capabilities have already been demonstrated. Its fairly stealthy. And with a 450 Kg warhead, it can devastate any ship

You are right. The SCAN seeker has two modes. Land Attack, Naval attack.
All depends now on engine, if seeker comes through.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Apr 2016 23:47

60 firing units of the MRSAM translates to no less than 30 squadrons.
http://defense-update.com/20160329_mrsam-2.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... mr-sam.htm

See: Each fire unit comes with a radar, three missile launchers, and a sophisticated Combat Management System.

Original orders were 18 units and 9 squadrons. This matches picture in link.
http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2011/12/mr ... g-450.html

Picture shows a fire unit.

So far, we know India is making pulse motors, missile actuation, the launchers and the CMS. Radar and seeker of missile come from Israel, but BEL would likely assemble the radars too.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Apr 2016 01:32

details were posted Feb. 2 in a DefenseWorld.net interview with BEL Chairman and Managing Director S.K. Sharma.

"There is no role for BEL in the initial supply of developmental orders from the Navy and Air Force for LRSAM and MRSAM programs," Sharma said, referring to India's respective names for the ship- and land-based programs. "However, in future supplies of LRSAM, BEL has been identified as lead integrator and production agency for radars.

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Apr 2016 05:24

Karan M wrote:60 firing units of the MRSAM translates to no less than 30 squadrons.
http://defense-update.com/20160329_mrsam-2.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... mr-sam.htm

See: Each fire unit comes with a radar, three missile launchers, and a sophisticated Combat Management System.

Original orders were 18 units and 9 squadrons. This matches picture in link.
http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2011/12/mr ... g-450.html

Picture shows a fire unit.

So far, we know India is making pulse motors, missile actuation, the launchers and the CMS. Radar and seeker of missile come from Israel, but BEL would likely assemble the radars too.

Karan,

According to this recent article from DEFEXPO, 3 firing units make up one battery for MRSAM. It's a bit confusing how various reporters use the word "firing unit"; some mean it as a battery (with three/four launch vehicles and radars) while others mean it as launch vehicle only. Manufactures, like Rafael on its Spyder system, use the word "firing unit" as a launch vehicle.

srai wrote:
Vipul wrote:DRDO Displays MRSAM Unit at DEFEXPO.

The Indian Defense Research & Development Organization (DRDO) unveiled at Defexpo 2016 the fire unit of Medium Range Surface-to-Air (MRSAM) missile system, developed and manufactured for the Indian Air Force and Army. The development of this system, a land-based version of the Long-Range SAM (LRSAM) Barak-8 naval area defense system, was designed and developed by the DRDO and will be produced competitively by Larsen &Turbo and Tata Power SED, both private sector enterprises. The missiles, developed by Israel’s IAI and Rafael will be produced in India by Bharat Dynamics (BDL).

Three fire units will comprise a battery, self supported with target acquisition and communications. The fire unit comprises two stacks of four Barak-8 missiles, for a total of eight launch tubes. Stacks are reloaded separately, for rapid replenishment. The IAF plans to buy 60 fire units, with the Army buying additional lots to fulfill its requirement for medium range air defense.

...
10 IAF squadrons worth are being purchased.

60 firing units
20 batteries/flights (@3 firing units per battery)
10 squadrons (@2 batteries per squadron)

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 02 Apr 2016 06:19

isubodh · Post by **isubodh** » 02 Apr 2016 16:33

If is so easy to fly with Nirbhaya and make a video then it would be easy to shoot it down too. Any AAM would not miss it. So whats gives this missile the edge ?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 02 Apr 2016 16:40

You are doing great if your enemy is forced to set up a sectored CAP to hunt the nirbhay that can come from the land or sea. You are doing even better if you force your enemy to plan for such as its a massive resource drain. There are two options to deal with non-stealthy, long range, subsonic cruise missiles. AESA radars + Powerful EO systems on CAP, or a highly integrated OTH capability through dispersed radars on the ground and in the air (AWACS,JSTARS, aerostats etc), and interceptors that can support OTH kills through LOR on the ground. Pakistan is incapable of fielding any of those capabilities, so beyond the routine success through regular air-defenses they really can't do anything other than go after the launch platforms or sites on the ground. Against a china, it would surely be a resource drain/burden if they have to commit a large portion of their air and ground defenses to performing a massive anti-cruise missile mission. Again the common theme being " Speed challenges the interceptor, while low-signature, low altitude cruise, and range challenges networks and sensors" - Your interceptor can't shoot something down if it slips past your sensors.

The Anti-Cruise missile mission is so demanding that it essentially even decades ago forced the US army to seek a sectored air-defense system and approach in the Patriot and avoid the temptations of a 360 degree system even though it came with its own set of advantages (The choice being then, as it is now - Be good at defending all sectors with a system, or be great at defending a particular sector). You have to be looking everywhere, all the time. Pakistan doesn't have the resources to strategically neutralize a massive nirbhay threat at range, once the missile is in the air therefore their only option is to invest in point-defense systems and buy lots of them and seek to destroy launchers or launch platforms.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Apr 2016 17:21

isubodh wrote:If is so easy to fly with Nirbhaya and make a video then it would be easy to shoot it down too. Any AAM would not miss it. So whats gives this missile the edge ?

Knowing if one or ten are on the way. Locating it and then sending something that can actually reach and hit it. These missiles will be programmed to stay far away from defences. en route. I think Brar has written a more comprehensive reply.

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Apr 2016 19:03

isubodh wrote:If is so easy to fly with Nirbhaya and make a video then it would be easy to shoot it down too. Any AAM would not miss it. So whats gives this missile the edge ?

That one is flying high with coordinated flight plan.

Try doing it when it is flying at 30m terrain hugging mode and using various pre-programmed waypoints. Long range radars don't pick it up at those altitudes. Now multiply the number of missiles flying towards the target from multiple directions and different intervals.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Apr 2016 19:25

SRai,

That is not how the IAF or IA define a firing unit. Lets just look at Akash. 18 Firing Units, each with 3 launchers, 9 Squadrons. So FU is a battery with its own radar.

The global security link reiterates that, and the MRSAM picture above confirms the same.

To reiterate.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-su ... ce-2103457

IAF has given an initial contract for eight squadrons of Akash defence system. Each squadron has two firing units with four launchers. Each launcher has a capacity to fire three missiles in quick succession.

Or. We know this is correct now from MOD report (7 more squadrons)
http://asian-defence-news.blogspot.in/2 ... akash.html

An air force plan to induct seven squadrons of the Akash anti-air missile systems has been cleared at several levels and is likely to get a final approval from the high-powered defence acquisition committee shortly, sources told ET. Fourteen firing units of the missile will be bought for the seven squadrons.While state-run Bharat Electronics Ltd will be given the main contract under a 'repeat order' - the air force has already contracted for eight squadrons of the missile systems out of which two have been inducted - the major system providers include Electronics Corporation of India, Hindustan Aeronautics, Tata Power SED and L&T, defence ministry officials said.

Or.
http://thediplomat.com/2015/05/revealed ... se-system/

Director General of Army Air Defense (DGAAD) Lt. General VK Saxena said. “Our regiment has six fire units, each fire unit has four Akaash launchers, each with three ready to fire missiles, so a lot of fire power goes along with each fire unit.”

So IF, the IAF does acquire 60 FUs, that's 60 batteries & 180 launchers. And 30 squadrons.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 02 Apr 2016 19:41

So an Akash Fire Unit is 4 launchers + Radar. 2 FUs = IAF Sqdn and 6 FUs = Army Regt.

Clear. Thanks.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 02 Apr 2016 19:47

Guys I would love to do a analysis of where the these IAF Sqdns would be stationed. But purely wiki analysis of logical areas, no classified info or chaiwalla please. We know the first two are at Pune and Gwalior.

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 02 Apr 2016 19:58

Karan M wrote: Exactly. Everyone saw the c-system in action moment LCA Mk1A was ordered. To discredit Modi and Make in India most media jerks ran failed LCA forced on IAF reports. It doesn't take much to even figure out who the scumbags were.

As we are able to put more and more complex systems, which cannot be imported, into operation such as mars orbiter, gslv-IIIs, agni-vs, arihants, air craft carriers, abduls will automatically start thinking "wait a minute if we can manufacture these items then why not a much simpler thing like tank so something is a miss here with the report". And if we can export them to a few countries then that will completely break the back of these import lobby. The live demos are a step in that direction to show case the working systems to abduls

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 02 Apr 2016 22:26

BDL test-fires anti-tank missile

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 02 Apr 2016 22:51

I think LRSAM is

9 squadrons = 18 batteries/firing units = x3 ie 54 launchers with 8 missiles each around 490 missiles

Akash IAF buy is

15 squadrons = 30 batteries/firing units = x4 ie 120 launchers with 20 missies each around 2500 missiles.