Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2016

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby SSridhar » 10 Apr 2016 20:26

shiv wrote:Both suggest punishment of Pakistan...what makes Indian decision makers hesitate?


shiv, I am not sure what runs in the mind of the innermost coterie that is running the show. If at all there had been a ruling clique that right-thinking Indians would have expected to settle the issue permanently with Pakistan, that clique is there today in power. Mrs IG was just one person (but totally dominating like Amma in TN) but today all top decision-making positions in GoI have a like-minded set of people. I do not think Modi is after Nobel Peace Prize like some of his predecessors. There is nothing more that GoI can do for peace if Pathankot happens after Modi's visit to Lahore. The peace process got terminated there.

The only reason, therefore, that I can think of is that like Mrs IG in c. 1971, they want Pakistan to attack us first. They may want the war to be declared by Pakistan as the fig leaf. Insh'a Alla'h. The frothing-at-the-mouth-corner Pakistanis would not disappoint us.

But, like Mrs. IG, we must do everything in the meanwhile to weaken that country, drum up support. Ash Carter cannot promise any 'gift' higher than a secretive complete US support for our cause in return for the foundational agreements. That would be akin to the 'Peace Treaty' with the USSR before December, 1971. Apply the tourniquet.

I feel that the message in very clear, unambiguous terms has gone to Pakistan from GoI. Pakistan senses the impending gloom and that is why the drama about JIT, RAW agent, Iran, Balochistan, 'ten terrorists warning', combined PM & COAS visit to KSA, provoking border fire, calling-off of talks and putting the blame on India, dossiers to the UN & the US etc.

I disliked invitation to Pakistani JIT to PAFB all right, but the last hope for India at least for the foreseeable future (until a jingo from BR becomes the PM) is Modi & Co. I want to give him the benefit of doubt.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby shiv » 10 Apr 2016 21:02

Aditya_V wrote:Since we brought 2002, isn't it a fact US and French Navy's flew sorties to prevent and Indian attack from the sea. Plus we have termites within the system, these things take time and effort to overcome

Aditya I don't believe that US and French navy story. In fact I think it is downright insulting to India to suggest that we kept off a land war because the US and France flew a few sorties. Of course you are entitled to believe that, but I don't. If we were going to make war, we would have done so despite that. Unfortunately the story is like whether Jesus Christ existed or not. It's about belief.

I agree about termites in the system. But that is why I say that golden opportunities to hit Pakistan are few and far between - and by "golden opportunity" I mean a time when there is widespread national anger at Pakistan. 1971 was a slow motion affair. We (the citizens of India) without TV or internet, gradually saw what was happening and we prepared for war for months. In 2001 we prepared for war for months and I don't believe a few sorties of some air force stopped a land war.

In 2008 it was worse. We did not mobilize at all. A non military response was pre-decided.

It has become the norm to not respond to Paki military provocations with non military responses. Those military responses that are made seem to be done in private, away from the public eye. There is something dysfunctional about punishing the Paki military in secret. Yes, I do agree there are termites in the system. But there are a lot of angry non termites as well. What about them?

If I must be sympathetic to the Modi government I must say that they have not had time to undo the paralysis and ignorance of the last 10 years. But beyond that the fact that Pakistan is not being made to pay is mystifying.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby shiv » 10 Apr 2016 21:16

SSridhar wrote:The only reason, therefore, that I can think of is that like Mrs IG in c. 1971, they want Pakistan to attack us first. They may want the war to be declared by Pakistan as the fig leaf. Insh'a Alla'h. The frothing-at-the-mouth-corner Pakistanis would not disappoint us.

I agree with this assessment but I am deeply distressed at the ignorance that is being shown by such an idea. And this is something that I have posted before on BRF.

The days when Pakistan used its armed forces to attack India ended in 1971. After that - be it support for Khalistan or J&K insurgency, it was proxies. Under the boost provided by the 1999 tests Pakistanis again tried something but were unwilling to commit the army.

The Pakistan army does not want to get into direct war with India again.

And that is why they will only use proxies. The point is that when they use proxies, we need to hit the army. This is what needs to be acknowledged and internalized. The way I hear Sareen, Hasnain and Partha saying that in 2016 makes it seem like the lesson has not gone through as far as it ought to have gone.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby CRamS » 10 Apr 2016 21:17

There is nothing mystifying about why successive Indian govts, including the current Hindu nationalist govt, have not responded militarily to TSP terror provocations. And that is lack of robust military options, whereby India punishes and teaches TSPA a lesson without itself getting hurt big time. Somewhat like US "war" with ISIS where its more entertainment for every pipsqueak US politician because it only involves dropping a few bombs from 30,000 ft and clenching fists back home that they did something. One guys says I dropped 10 and he is accused of being a p!ussy because the other guy says he dropped 15 or will do so.

Like I said earlier, its easy for an Indian PM to pull the trigger and ask armed forces to launch attacks across LoC and IB to punish TSP. And Indian armed forces will do what is needed with full courage and valor. Problem is, that is exactly what TSP is waiting for, and will respond with equal force. India will probably prevail, but not before TSP does extensive damage to India both in terms of men and material. (And I am not even bringing up the nuke factor, which I think is a bit exaggerated, but nevertheless lurks beneath). And in the end, TSP's 3.5 will step in to share the spoils.

So on a cost benefit analysis, current status quo where TSP continues its terror attacks to irritate and humiliate India, India defends itself as best as it can, followed by talks tamasha, every Indian PM (as also most Indian policy makers including retd. military officials and diplomats) feel the current course is better. Except for minor perturbations, every Indian PM has followed more or less the same strategy. From TSP's PoV, they will continue down this path until India negotiates Kashmir first and foremost, and this is more or less the position of TSP's 3.5 as well.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby VKumar » 10 Apr 2016 21:23

Don't forget USA shares no borders with AQ/ISIS etc. Dropping dumb bombs from 30K feet when there is no ack-ack to fear. TSP v/s India is many a quantum leap from USA v/s sundry jehadis in the deserts of west asia.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby CRamS » 10 Apr 2016 22:15

In continuation of viewtopic.php?p=2003863#p2003863, I feel there is a room for a lot of innovation within the current status quo. Minhaz Merchat has advocated that as have many others. ModiJi needs to ignore the TSP pest, clearly draw the red lines for any engagement, and stick with it. Simultaneously, Indian security forces of all stripes and hues must deny TSP the advantage of "victory" (taking out scores of our men and creating a huge crisis), and do what it takes inside TSP. Also, Indian PM must be bold on Kashmir instead of p!ussyfooting around like what we are seeing at NIT. And he must stick to the course no matter what TSP's 3.5 preach or what DDM big-wigs pontificate with their TSP friends.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby kmkraoind » 10 Apr 2016 22:25

Two Pakistani intruders shot dead, 9-kg heroin recovered - Hindustan Times

Buggers, Paki rangers are hand in glove with narcotic smugglers.

BSF deputy inspector general (DIG, Amritsar sector) Sumer Singh told the media that based on intelligence inputs, BSF jawans were put on high alert along the border. The troops detected some suspicious movement along the barbed wire fencing at the border outpost and noticed two persons crossing the international border. The intruders ignored the BSF warning and opened fire after throwing heroin packets over the fence. The BSF jawans retaliated and shot dead one of the intruders and injured the other.

The DIG said the injured intruder managed to return to the Pakistan side where he died. He said blood trails of the second intruder could be seen from the Indian side of the fence and his body was taken away by Pakistani Rangers.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby member_29350 » 10 Apr 2016 23:39

@CramS

well, if status quo is all we get then nothing changes, ipso facto? As MMerchant says, GOI needs to innovate in response moves. Shanghai a Paki oil tanker; get the somalians to blow up paki stuff. Hold the next Baluch world conference in Delhi. heck if we are still doing Tibet, Baluch is not an issue. Settle people in JK; Move more heavy weaponry to the border. Get B'deshis to hang more paki 71 convicts. attack their embassy in Srilanka.

what's exactly stopping us?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby UlanBatori » 10 Apr 2016 23:45

Any punishment should be focused on RAPE assets such as warehouses, Jarnails' estate homes, and Army HQs/ officer's mess etc. Of course they will try to hit back, and adequate precautions should be taken, as in don't go to aphsar mejj for a few weeks.

This is a good way to make the cost-payoff analysis bad from Pakis' pov. Kill a couple of poor Indian policemen - and poof! A jarnail's $10M of hashish and JohnyWalker supplies in a warehouse go up in flames due to an obvious missile strike. $20M palatial makaan blown up, now serves mainly as air raid shelter. Completely unjust, and yindoos claim loudly that a terrorist cell was taken out. Also, another cricket series scrapped. More filmy ishtars denied vija to India.

Real estate prices in the 'hottest' rejidenshial neighborhoods plunge. Mansions become ghost houses as occupants shift to their Karachi flats.

The RAPE have to be forced to go to war against the Hafeez Saeed types; who in my view are the best assets for India inside Pakistan. Anyone with an iota of brain should be able to see that Saeed, Masood Azhar etc are RAA agints sent in to keep damaging Pakistan. Can the Paki Elite really be THAT stupid that they cannot see this, hain? In the land of Short Squat & Shrill (S^3) Shrilleen?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby CRamS » 10 Apr 2016 23:54

One more thing. Rather than this cacophony about "terror and religion must be de-linked" (and some have here on BR have given good reasons why ModiJi needs to emphasize this whether or not its true), I would like ModiJi to emphasize that "TSP and India Muslims must be de-linked", that way he has more aggressive defense room to maneuver with TSP. Right now, anything said against TSP can by spun by ModiJi haters as not being "secular" enough.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby Gagan » 11 Apr 2016 00:18

Has the Obama administration promised Modi something? Will Hillary honour any committment made by Obama?
Obama tends to favour CRE of the non P-5 powers, is Modi trying to ride this admin out, knowing that Hillary (or Trump - less likely), will be more amenable?

It does look like Modi /Doval are touring the world, creating awareness, and perhaps getting heads of states on board for some future action against terror. If India does something, it will be under the rubric of a war on terror, by India.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby RajeshA » 11 Apr 2016 00:27

I think among the elite and the fascinated Ganga-Jamna Tehzeeb people, BJP-is-evil-by-default people, secular babudom and yuppydom of India, Bollywood-clique, Lutyens hoipolloi, presstitutes, there is a deep-ingrained thinking that a war with Pakistan is totally unnecessary, and there is nothing so big, no terror act so big, that warrants going to WAR with "our neighbor" who just happen to be somewhat agitated lot, sometimes understandably by our own aggressive postures. Now some of the above are opinion-makers while the majority are often simply co-travelers.

Now if there is war between India and Pakistan, above mentioned societal class would simply not stand with India. They would say BJP govt has unnecessarily pushed India into a war with Pakistan, which could have been prevented and thus endangered the whole economic well-being of India, and the goras are not willing to come to India now or do business with us.

Question is should NaMo take along this class or at least some part of it along in our conflict with Pakistan!

What I have noticed is that many of those who are the Mughlai sold-outs have started criticizing NaMo for being taken for a ride by Pakistan. Yes some jingos are also doing so, but that is understandable. But the Mughlais think that by prickling NaMo on his "soft" approach towards Pakistan, and deriding him for his 56" chest boasts, they can wean away his core sport and make him suffer in the polls. They may be right, but at the same time they end up making a peacenik of Modi, a man unwilling to "stand-up" to Pak.

Why was it okay for Indira Gandhi to wage war with Pak but not for Modi?

Well for one thing, in the secular camp there is no IG anymore, who would wage war with Pak, so a Hindutvavadi would have to take up the challenge. But a Hindutvavadi waging war on Pak has its own downsides, the biggest one of which is that war is being waged on Pak simply because of Hindu Islamophobia, because RSS/BJP types just hate Muslims so much, they are more than eager to jump to a war with Pakistan. So the 800 pound gorilla in the room is that "Hindu's visceral hate for Islam drives RSS's attack on Pakistan using the BJP govt. at the Center".

A BJP Govt at the Center makes it infinitely more easy for Pakistan to paint a war between India and Pakistan as a war between Hindutva and Islam! With Congress types like JLN, LBS, IG, etc. this task was somewhat more difficult. Also let's not forget that it is the age of global communications, and propaganda is much much easier, something which was not the case in the age of JLN, LBS and IG.

So how does NaMo get rid of the tag that our actions against Pakistan are being driven by HATE, hate against Islam, hate against Muslims, hate against Pakistan?

We, especially on BRF, have a thousand reasons why India should hit back at Pakistan, which has got nothing to do with hate, and everything to do with justified retribution!

But our views and reasoning would not be the dominating narrative in Indian media or internationally, and most importantly some portion of our own populace may turn radical and against India, and we know who they are.

So how does NaMo get rid of the "Hate tag"?

One way is to be ridiculed by sickulars themselves for being naive on Pakistan! We have also seen NaMo making a very strong pitch for "terrorism has no religion"! We have seen NaMo holding hands with Nawaz in Lahore! We have seen NaMo with the Sufis! We have seen NaMo with Emirates and Saudi Sheikhs! We have seen diplomatic dialogues! We have seen JITs in Pathankot! Etc. Etc.

Do we really think that Doval, who advises NaMo, doesn't understand Pakistan? Do we really think that NaMo has been made a sucker of? Do we think that we Indian military does not have what it takes to take on Pakistan?

I don't know, but probably before we tear up Pakistan to smithereens, we will have to do a lot more love-making to it!

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby Prem » 11 Apr 2016 01:42

PAKISTAN WOMAN WHO MARRIED QADIAN MAN TO GET INDIAN CITIZENSHIP
http://www.indian24news.com/india/pakis ... 96726-news
(a Loophole 2b used by Poisonous Lillah Lizard Ahmadis ?)
Pakistani national Tahira Zahoor’s wait for Indian citizenship has finally ended — 13 years after she arrived in the country to marry Qadian resident Maqbool Ahmad and five years after she applied for the citizenship.Maqbool Sunday said the Union Ministry of Home Affairs has cleared Tahira’s file for Indian citizenship.Tahira, who married Maqbool of the Ahmadiyya community in December 2003 after arriving in India in October that year, was to marry Maqbool towards the end of December 2001. But the December 13, 2001 Parliament attack derailed her plans, with India snapping all road, rail and air connectivity with Pakistan.Tahira, a resident of Faisalabad in Pakistan, could get a visa to travel to India only in 2003, but not before political bigwigs, including former PM I K Gujral, pushed her case.Maqbool cited a communication from the Punjab home department to Gurdaspur Deputy Commissioner about a “citizenship certificate”of Tahira that the department reportedly received last month. He said “some district-level formalities would have to be completed and Tahira would finally become an Indian citizen”.The communication from the state home department reportedly states that Tahira be handed over the certificate and the acknowledgement be sent to the Union Ministry of Home Affairs.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby sanjaykumar » 11 Apr 2016 03:47

Are there no prisons?”

‘Plenty of prisons,’ said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.’And the Union workhouses.’ demanded Scrooge. ‘Are they still in operation?’

‘Both very busy, sir.’

‘Oh. I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,’ said Scrooge. ‘I’m very glad to hear it.’

‘Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude,’ returned the gentleman, ‘a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?’

‘Nothing!’ Scrooge replied.

‘You wish to be anonymous?’

‘I wish to be left alone,’ said Scrooge. ‘Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don’t make merry myself at Christmas and I can’t afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned-they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there.’

‘Many can’t go there; and many would rather die.’

‘If they would rather die,’ said Scrooge, ‘they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.”

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby milano » 11 Apr 2016 03:58

Folks, I had deliberately refrained from posting after Pathankot, as things went pretty silent on the Pakistani daily rags' opinion sections. You'll recall, my interest is in looking at what the presumably connected ex-military brigadier and ambassador types opine upon, to divine what Pak government thinking may be. It was a boring several weeks, with very little in the way of columns focused on India.

I'm back, now that the seemingly self-imposed silence to give piss a chance (from both governments) is being lifted. I have seen a bit of an uptick in India-centric opinion columns in recent days, most of it trending towards negative. There would seem to be a correlation between the frequency and overall tone of opinion columns and: the conclusion of Paki investigators' visit, the so-called capture of so-called RAW spy and the recent bleatings from Abdul Basit. Now, add to it the recent shelling on the LC.

I think things are about to get exciting. BTW, kudos Shivji, you were spot on that the next thing in the sequence of events would be a resumption of shelling.

Will post more with opinion columns that catch my fancy.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby sum » 11 Apr 2016 04:33

wig wrote:After a lull of nearly six months, Pakistani troops resorted to unprovoked mortar shelling on the Indian side along the Line of Control (LoC) in Poonch sector during the wee hours of Sunday. “There had been unprovoked ceasefire violation by the Pakistani Army in Shahpur area of Poonch sector,’’ said a Defence Ministry spokesperson Lt Colonel Manish Mehta. “The exchange of mortar fire and automatics continued from about midnight to 0430 hours,’’ he said, adding that the Indian Army “responded appropriately’’.

The first thiung which comes to mind is if there was a "border incident" which led to the firing and shelling?
Usually, have noticed that all the older incidents ( of small scale cross border raids by India/BAT teams etc) were later shown to be in some or other article that but were dismissed as routinue shelling incidents at the time of action.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby Anujan » 11 Apr 2016 04:38

shiv wrote:Of course I know that Pakistan has, for long been demanding "joint probes". The chootzpah here is amazing as in "Harrumph we have very competent investigators and we need them to work on cases to solve them" I wonder if Pakis thought that they would have an easy excuse to get away - expecting India to refuse a joint probe, and then saying "See? India is afraid of a joint probe because they have cooked up everything to blame Pakistan"

India agreeing to a joint probe may have surprised them but I am sure they thought they would go along for the ride. they demanded access to the air base and they got it. But in exchange they agreed that they would not let any security men be interviewed and that an Indian team would then go to Pakistan. Maybe they figured that the actual visit would not take place and that there would be little evidence to present.


There is a section of Pakistani power brokers, who vehemently, sincerely, utterly believe that Pakistan is a responsible country, they are being badly victimized by international media, and if only given a chance, they will show their sincerity. I have personally wondered about this myself. This level of self delusion is quite strange: They know the history of terrorism in Afghanistan, Bin Laden cooling his heels in Pakistan, history of terrorism in Punjab and JK, but on this instance, they vehemently utterly sincerely insist that Pakistan has turned a corner, it is all one huge misunderstanding and they werent involved at all and are being falsely victimized for their misguided actions of the past. Probably that section naively supported the JIT visit to India. But once in India, the groups in Pakistan who knew they were involved now want to scuttle it.

Basit seems to represent the section against talks. Usually he has helped sabotage talks, but dragging in the usual bogeymen like Samjhauta and meeting the hurri-rats when simultaneously border attacks are being conducted.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby milano » 11 Apr 2016 05:25

Anujan wrote:
shiv wrote:Of course I know that Pakistan has, for long been demanding "joint probes". The chootzpah here is amazing as in "Harrumph we have very competent investigators and we need them to work on cases to solve them" I wonder if Pakis thought that they would have an easy excuse to get away - expecting India to refuse a joint probe, and then saying "See? India is afraid of a joint probe because they have cooked up everything to blame Pakistan"

India agreeing to a joint probe may have surprised them but I am sure they thought they would go along for the ride. they demanded access to the air base and they got it. But in exchange they agreed that they would not let any security men be interviewed and that an Indian team would then go to Pakistan. Maybe they figured that the actual visit would not take place and that there would be little evidence to present.


There is a section of Pakistani power brokers, who vehemently, sincerely, utterly believe that Pakistan is a responsible country, they are being badly victimized by international media, and if only given a chance, they will show their sincerity. I have personally wondered about this myself. This level of self delusion is quite strange: They know the history of terrorism in Afghanistan, Bin Laden cooling his heels in Pakistan, history of terrorism in Punjab and JK, but on this instance, they vehemently utterly sincerely insist that Pakistan has turned a corner, it is all one huge misunderstanding and they werent involved at all and are being falsely victimized for their misguided actions of the past. Probably that section naively supported the JIT visit to India. But once in India, the groups in Pakistan who knew they were involved now want to scuttle it.

Basit seems to represent the section against talks. Usually he has helped sabotage talks, but dragging in the usual bogeymen like Samjhauta and meeting the hurri-rats when simultaneously border attacks are being conducted.


Anujan/Shiv - I think you're right. If we believe that Basit is the mouthpiece (he's got to be) of the true seat of power (Army/ISI), then it appears the Pak powers are quite flummoxed that the Indian Govt acted the way it did. The Pathankot probe was a game of chicken, and Pak got caught out (now backtracking on having our investigators go there, planting media stories of non-evidence). I think we can take solace in the fact that Basit was bleating about the piss process being effectively suspended and harping on how the whole world now knows what the Indian Govt is up to in Balochistan (Yadav incident) - This would suggest that our govt is going through the motions, knowing full well that Pak had never really changed, and is in fact holding firm that relations will not progress without a change in behaviour from Pak.

Added later: to add salt and mirch to Pak H&D, I really wish after Basit's latest rantings that GoI would declare him PNG for going against the stated public agreements and pronouncements, and ship him back.

And yet later: another data point that gives me comfort that we are squeezing Pak on multiple fronts: http://www.hindustantimes.com/india/india-to-invest-20-billion-in-iran-s-chabahar-port-development/story-ShCXzf7MNodhyro3G5WYSM.html
Last edited by milano on 11 Apr 2016 05:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby UlanBatori » 11 Apr 2016 05:49

sanjaykumar wrote: ‘Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. ..I help to support the establishments I have mentioned-they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there.’..‘If they would rather die,’ said Scrooge, ‘they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.”

Got confused and posted here instead of the US Election Campaign dhaga? :mrgreen:

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby shiv » 11 Apr 2016 06:39

sum wrote:
wig wrote:After a lull of nearly six months, Pakistani troops resorted to unprovoked mortar shelling on the Indian side along the Line of Control (LoC) in Poonch sector during the wee hours of Sunday. “There had been unprovoked ceasefire violation by the Pakistani Army in Shahpur area of Poonch sector,’’ said a Defence Ministry spokesperson Lt Colonel Manish Mehta. “The exchange of mortar fire and automatics continued from about midnight to 0430 hours,’’ he said, adding that the Indian Army “responded appropriately’’.

The first thiung which comes to mind is if there was a "border incident" which led to the firing and shelling?
Usually, have noticed that all the older incidents ( of small scale cross border raids by India/BAT teams etc) were later shown to be in some or other article that but were dismissed as routinue shelling incidents at the time of action.

Question in IAS entrance exam:

"We never read in the media that India started the shelling because India never starts shelling. Discuss."


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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby deejay » 11 Apr 2016 07:26

shiv wrote:...

"We never read in the media that India started the shelling because India never starts shelling. Discuss."


We have an NFU policy hence we do not fire first. The NFU is designed for nuclear weapons but due to innate hostile nature, sdre yindoo banyan is likely to be trigger happy. Hence, to practice and inculcate a reflex reaction to NFU, the training is given from kindergarten level by never shooting first.

8)

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby Viv S » 11 Apr 2016 07:36

Anujan wrote:Basit seems to represent the section against talks. Usually he has helped sabotage talks, but dragging in the usual bogeymen like Samjhauta and meeting the hurri-rats when simultaneously border attacks are being conducted.


India-Pak in touch? Basit’s ‘suspension’ of talks may be false alarm

“One has to look at Pakistan’s foreign spokesperson’s statement, a day before on the JIT (April 6) as well on the day (April 7) Basit spoke, to understand the mind of Islamabad. India has shown its bona fides by allowing the JIT access to all the NIA had as far as the Pathankot probe was concerned. And contrary to public perception, India has got support from Islamabad in nailing the actual perpetrators. It is now for Islamabad to get back to us,” a senior official told Hindustan Times.

The South Block perspective on Basit’s public outburst is that it was possibly aimed at his own foreign ministry. That he was kept out of the NSA dialogue in Bangkok and then over-ruled by his own superiors during the ‘Heart of Asia’ conference in Islamabad last December would explain that. Seen as a supporter of a Hurriyat role in India-Pakistan relations, Basit was pipped to the foreign secretary’s post by Aizaz Choudhary.

Basit may thus have acted at the behest of a section of Pakistan’s foreign establishment which feels that Islamabad has been forced into a Pathankot corner because there’s only terror on the menu, and other outstanding issues stay on the back-burner. This section, South Block says, is unhappy at New Delhi trying to block the sale of F-16 fighters to Pakistan, supplying Mi-26 attack helicopters to Afghanistan and establishing close contacts with the ruling dispensation in United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby shiv » 11 Apr 2016 08:22

For timepass - I am resurrecting old posts made by me and others about shitland. I start with one I made in 2013
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6513

shiv wrote:Dear Manmohan Singhji, Soniaji, Advaniji and other netas,

If Indians were being killed in bomb blasts every day; if 125 people got killed on one day in a series of blasts, would you not respond by at least talking about bringing in increased policing in your country? Would you not call out the army to help with security? Did you hear Zardari, Kayani and Hina Rabbani express regret over the murderous bomb blasts in their own country? Do you understand that Pakistani leaders are not responding to crises in Pakistan the way you would be expected to do in India? Or in any other civilized nation?

Do you know why Pakistani leaders do not respond the way we would expect? If you know, you not revealing to us, the Indian public, that you understand what we can see very clearly. Pakistan is not a normal country. Pakistan is no longer under government control. The civilian leadership have no control. The military does not even conduct a coup as happened earlier in Pakistan because they too are no longer confident of controlling the whole country. The Pakistan army's morale is in a shambles. Ten years ago, the Pakistani army had about 30% of its personnel who were Pashtuns. The Pakistan army are now fighting those very Pashtuns and there have been desertions in the Pakistan army.

You are our leaders in India. You know very well why you, and our armed forces who answer to you are not using tanks and aircraft to attack Maoists. We do not use those weapons of war against our own people. But the Pakistani army is actually using those weapons against its own people. Do you really believe that Pakistani political leaders and you have something in common? Do you really believe that our armed forces and the Pakistani armed forces have something in common? But why do you keep saying that the Indian and Pakistani people have something in common? 66 years after partition, Indians and Pakistanis do not have much in common and please do not treat us Indians as if we are so stupid that we cannot see the deep differences that have developed between India and Pakistan.

Dear leaders. It was not your fault that Pakistan was created as a separate country. You know very well that if people wanted a land exclusively for Muslims. they got it and we wish them well. We have always wished them happiness in their land. It is their choice as to how they want to practice Islam. They have made no promise to be secular. Pakistani behavior is communal by choice. We are secular by law and pluralist by nature. What is there in common between India and Pakistan other than the fact that we are all humans. Remember, Kasab too was human. But what do we have in common with Kasab? Why do you leaders insist that there is much in common between India and Pakistan?

It is not your fault that Bangladesh was created. It is not your fault that West Pakistanis like Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and General Yahya Khan responded to an election defeat in Pakistan by trying to kill Bengalis. It was not your fault that ten million refugees came to India out of fear of their own army. Are you going to ask the Indian army to shoot people if you lose an election? Do you think the Indian armed forces will even listen to you if you did that? Then why do you insist that Pakistan and India have a lot in common? Are you leaders really unaware, or do you believe that the Indian public can be fooled forever?

Shri Mani Shankar Aiyer understood decades ago and wrote a book stating that to be Pakistani was to be "not Indian". The late JN Dixit wrote of how Pakistani children referred to him as "Hindu kutta" (Hindu dog). Now we have Pakistani cricketers openly referring to "Hinduon ka zehniyat" -stereotyping all Hindus. And those cricketers are invited to India. Would you allow an Indian cricketer to live as a free man in India if he criticizes all Muslims? Why then do we have these double standards of inviting a Pakistani cricketer who insults all Hindus? Do you think we the Indian public do not feel hurt and insulted when we hear Pakistani minister Hina Rabbani Khar speak of the 26/11 Mumbai attacks and demand that India should forget about it and let "bygones be bygones"? Why should we swallow such insults?

Pakistan is an Islamic country by choice. Pakistan is anti-India by choice. No one in India is being fooled by this pretence of Aman ki Asha. Wy do you insist on that? The Pakistani government is not in control in Pakistan. They cannot control their army. The army cannot control their terrorists. What do we gain by talking to any of these groups? Why do we believe that we have no option other than to talk?

Dear leaders. There is no one to talk to in Pakistan. There is nothing to talk. No entity in Pakistan has the power to implement agreements. No one is in control other than terrorists and even they are not in full control. And the terrorists will not talk. Have you tried approaching Hafiz Saeed for talks> Have you approached Dawood Ibrahim for talks? These people have more influence than Gen Kayani or Zardari. But it is Indian policy not to talk to terrorists isn't it?

I write this letter hoping that someone will read it. I hope that someone in the Indian government will realize that many educated Indians have studied Pakistan and understood some things. I would like to say that peace may not be possible without war. There is no one in Pakistan who will talk to us who also has the power to enforce friendship and peace. That means that a time may come, sooner or later when we have to wage war against Pakistan and bring that area under control. But if you wish that there should be no war, please do not try and fool us and say that we Indians have much in common with Pakistan. You are trying to fool us. We should not deal with Pakistan at all. No visas. No cricket and death to any armed Pakistani who tries to force his way in. Pakistanis want rule by devout Muslims. They want sharia. The Taliban represent both values. Indians, who respect all religions should respect Pakistan's right to allow only Sunni Muslims to live in Pakistan and practise sharia. But please don't say that this is a value that all Indians share and that Indians and Pakistan can be friends. How can there be friendship with very little in common.

Pakistan is undergoing gradual failure as a state. Please acknowledge that and stop pretending that things can be normal between India and Pakistan. Please stop pretending that India and Pakistan can have normal state to state relations like we have between Sri Lanka or with the US.

Many Indians who have studied Pakistan feel that we need to change our policies towards that failed country. But we now worry that you, our leaders are in denial. We worry that you have no policy to deal with Pakistan because you simply believe that Pakistan is a normal country like India and that Pakistanis are normal people like Indians. This is not true. I hope you the leaders of India will be able to understand that and start dealing with Pakistan as a failed state, in a state of religious and ideological war with India. In a war, we may have to get ready to fight and protect what we value. Do you, my dear leaders value what I value?

Respectfully yours

shiv

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby shiv » 11 Apr 2016 08:31

One more
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5038
shiv wrote:Why do we keep hearing Indian leaders say that "An intact, stable Pakistan is in India's interest?"

Why do the national media, and even recognized patriots such as Brahm Chellaney not come out openly against this silly assertion?

Is there some kind of fundamental flaw in our assessment of Pakistan on BRF that makes us mindlessly anti-Pakistan while it is patently clear to the powers that be that Pakistan should be both stable and intact for good things to happen to India in the long term. ("in India's interest").

I would like to examine the issue of Pakistan's stability and Indian interest from various angles to see if we are completely off track in imagining that Pakistani stability is bad for India.

1) The Historic angle:

If you look back at the last 63 years since Pakistan was formed it might be possible to identify periods when Pakistan was intact and stable and it benefited India greatly. So let us move back to 1947.

In 1947 Pakistanis supported Jihadis attacked J&K and attempted to take it over. The end of the year in 1948 left India without a sizable chunk of J&K. If Pakistan attacked India and occupied territory, I would like to know how the Pakistan of 1947-48, intact as it was, was in any way beneficial to India.

The period 1948 to 1965 (17 years) was an interesting period. Pakistan was intact and stable. Pakistan's economy was greatly aided by the US at this time and Pakistan had developed the reputation enjoyed by "Asian economic tigers" of a later era. So we had an intact and stable Pakistan in this period. But how did that augur for India? Was in in "India interest". This can be answered in a backhanded way. Pakistan's stability in the 1948-1965period benefited India in that Pakistan did not attack India. The benefit here is like claiming that "Not being assaulted and attacked" by a belligerent is some kind of "great economic, diplomatic advantage". Protection money paid by victims to mafia gangs achieves the same effect of "security" that Pakistan offered India between 1948 and 1965.

In 1965 Pakistan attempted to take over Kashmir by force. Unless "being attacked by Pakistan" is considered a great diplomatic and economic boon to India, this attack could not have been in "India's interest"

Pakistan displayed relative stability up to 1971 when the Bangladesh crisis was sparked off. The Bangladesh crisis did not contribute to India's interest in any way. On the contrary, splitting Pakistan and defeating it militarily contributed to a period of stability in the subcontinent that was in India's interest. Here we have a classic example of an instance in which an non-intact and fragmented Pakistan was in India's interest. Not the other way round.

The 80s were a period of relative stability in Pakistan. During this period the only factor that worked in India interest was that India was not attacked by Pakistan. However Pakistan did try expansionism by converting the Siachen glacier area into a park for mountaineers. This was thwarted militarily by India. But the conclusion is the same. Pakistan's stability did not contribute to peace or stability for India. Pakistan also expanded into Afghanistan.

Pakistan in the 1990s was intact but unstable. The 90s were marked by a period of intense Pakistan sponsored terrorism in India. In what was way this in Indian interest? There was nothing good for India in this.

In 1999 Pakistan, attacked India and provoked the Kargil conflict. Nothing about this shameful episode can be declared as having been in India's interest. From 2000 onwards we have had a series of terrorist attacks in India that can all be traced back to Pakistan. What is it about these attacks that would make anyone feel that Pakistan, stable or unstable, has any stake in anything that is in India interest.

As far as I can tell, the history of the last 63 clearly shows that Pakistan, stable or unstable, is not in India's interest. So who has conjured up the shameful lie that "A stable Pakistan is in India's interest?"

2) Pakistan's "stability" angle

Going back 63 years - one can see that Pakistan has been stable for some periods of time and unstable at other times. There is absolutely no correlation between Pakistani stability and India interests.

1947-8: Pakistan was unstable and it attacked India

1965: Pakistan was stable and it attacked India

1971: Pakistan was stable and it got itself into a crisis that resulted in war

1980s: Pakistan was stable and it commenced an expansionist campaign into Afghanistan in search of "strategic depth" against India

1990s: Pakistan was politically unstable, and India suffered from terrorism

After 2000: Pakistan remains unstable and terrorism continues.

There is absolutely no correlation between Pakistan's stability and India's interests. Pakistan has been attacking India whether or not it is politically stable.

3) Pakistan's "prosperity" angle:

In 1947-8 Pakistan was in economic upheaval, and it attacked India

In 1965 Pakistan was stable and prosperous, and it attacked India

In 1971 Pakistan was stable and prosperous and it attacked India

1n the 1980s Pakistan was prosperous and did nothing for India interests

1n the 1990s Pakistan's economy was prosperous, and funded terrorism against India

After 2000, Pakistan's economy has been on bailout mode, and attacks against India continue.


4) India's "Interests" angle

It was not in India's interest to get attacked by Pakistan in 1947-48
It was not in India's interest to get attacked by Pakistan in 1965
It was not in India's interest to have to put up 10 million refugees from genocide in East Pakistan in 1971
It was not in India's interest to lose Siachen or have Afghanistan occupied by Pakis in the 1980s
Terrorism since the 1990s has not been in India's interest.

Under what circumstances (other than being high on heroin or ganja) can any Indian say that Pakistan has acted in India's interest under any circumstances?

Specifically how can people continue to assert that a stable Pakistan is in India's interest? Clearly, Pakistan is not acting in India's interest. the question of its stability or instability playing any role does not even arise. The assertion that "A stable Pakistan is in India's interest" is a black lie that should no longer be tolerated.

Why do India leaders say that? Why does the idiotic press in India actually echo that mindlessly when it is said? Are we just a nation of moronic automations who swallow what is thrown at us without applying any thought?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby shiv » 11 Apr 2016 08:45

A reminder of our recent past:

27th July 2015 Gurdaspur - 6 people killed including a police officer

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/gurdaspu ... ay-1200928
At least six people have been killed by a group of terrorists in Gurdaspur in Punjab near the border with Pakistan. The terrorists are currently in an empty police station and are exchanging fire with security forces. This is how the attackers struck, according to latest information from sources:


Around 5.30 am, the four armed terrorists, wearing army uniforms, tried to grab a tempo on a major highway near the bus stand in Dinanagar.
The tempo driver managed to escape, said sources.
A roadside food stall owner was reportedly killed in the firing.
The terrorists then opened fire on a bus heading towards the state capital of Chandigarh; six passengers were injured.
The terrorists shot next at a white Maruti 800; the driver was injured; the attackers left in his car
They stopped at the police station in Dinanagar and opened fire. Two cops were killed.
In the exchange of fire with security forces, three patients at a hospital next door were shot, according to sources.
The terrorists are now holed up in a part of the police station and are continuing to exchange fire with security forces.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby shiv » 11 Apr 2016 08:52

August 2015
Udhampur terror attack - one Paki captured
http://zeenews.india.com/news/jammu-and ... 41809.html

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... encounter/
A terrorist from Pakistan was captured Wednesday after an attack on a BSF bus on the Jammu-Srinagar national highway in Udhampur. The second terrorist involved in the attack, which left two BSF personnel dead and 10 injured, was shot dead in retaliatory fire.

The terrorist, who appeared to be barely out of his teens, was overpowered and turned over to securitymen by the men he took hostage while looking for an escape route.
- See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... Z5WAh.dpuf
Last edited by shiv on 11 Apr 2016 08:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby shiv » 11 Apr 2016 08:54

- A few months later, in Jan 2016 the Pathankot attack
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Pathankot_attack

Modi had met Nawaz Sharif just a few days before this on Dec 25th 2015

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby Hari Seldon » 11 Apr 2016 14:47

You can't make this up ... Lol.

>>The Indian ExpressVerified account
‏@IndianExpress
Hand grenade, submitted as proof, explodes in Pakistan anti-terrorism court, 3 injured | http://indianexpress.com/article/world/ ... 3-injured/

https://twitter.com/IndianExpress/statu ... 8156397568

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby salaam » 11 Apr 2016 19:36

Modi's foreign policy relies on a few good men
http://southasiamonitor.org/detail.php?type=n&nid=16310
...Abdul Basit, hinted on Thursday that the army generals in Rawalpindi have had enough of talks with India...
... Obama speaking at the end of the Nuclear Security Summit almost equated the nuclear programmes and military doctrines of India and Pakistan. This is not entirely surprising given that the Obama-Sharif joint statement of October 2015 shockingly tried to equate the terror concerns of India and Pakistan with regard to each other...
...China’s “technical hold” against India’s attempt to proscribe Azhar by the UN comes, again, despite a recent precedent which should have alerted Indian leaders and diplomats. Beijing blocked India’s efforts in June last year to seek action against Pakistan for releasing Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi from prison...

Who is Winning the “Great Balancing Game” Between Pakistan, India, Saudi Arabia, and Iran?
http://eaworldview.com/2016/04/who-winning-great-balancing-game-between-pakistan-india-saudi-arabia/
...The priority which dictates Pakistan’s political engagement in the Middle East, other than religion, is its national security vis-à-vis India. There is a natural reluctance to bolster political ties with countries that enjoy strategic and defense partnerships with India...
...India is a rising economy in Asia with its huge market attracting global investment, but this industrialization can only be sustained with a secure energy base...
...Locked in a political turf war in the Middle East with Saudi Arabia and its other Gulf allies, Tehran needs security and defense partners to consolidate its regional standing...
...Since the ascent of King Salman to the throne, Saudi Arabia has adopted an aggressive and pro-active foreign policy against Iran, trying to isolate Tehran in the region. The kingdom is also aware of its own economic difficulties and a pressing need to find new markets for its petro-exports...

United States Ambassador to Pakistan to visit India, discuss key issues
http://www.firstpost.com/world/united-states-ambassador-to-pakistan-to-visit-india-discuss-key-issues-2714746.html
...During his two-day staying in New Delhi, the Special US Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, will discuss on promotion of an Afghan-led, Afghan-owned peace and reconciliation process, the State Department said...

Saudi-India-Pakistan Triangle
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aparna-pande/saudi--india-pakistan-tri_b_9606740.html
...After years of considering Saudi Arabia as a major ally and economic benefactor, Pakistan may be on the verge of losing its erstwhile patron to archrival India...
...King Salman bin Abdul Aziz conferred the Kingdom’s highest civilian award, The King Abdul Aziz Order, on the Indian Prime Minister. For Pakistanis who see the world in binary terms as an eternal conflict between India and Pakistan, this was clearly a win for India...
...Pakistan could stick to its guns and see these developments as a threat. Or it could change its own approach to India and seek rapprochement to take advantage of economic and strategic opportunities that are making India a desirable partner for Pakistan’s erstwhile friends...

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby Falijee » 11 Apr 2016 19:44

Axact Appears To Be An Arm Of The "Deep State"- N.Y.Times Report
‘Axact fraud empire bigger than initially imagined’ — NYT report details new revelations
New York Times investigative journalist Declan Walsh – whose report last year unveiled a “secretive Pakistani software company” that allegedly earned millions of dollars from scams involving fake degrees, non-existent online universities and manipulation of customers – has detailed in a new report published Monday fresh details about the case surrounding Axact.
New details on the case, disclosed in the report, purport that the scandal is “bigger than initially imagined”.
Axact allegedly took money from at least 215,000 people in 197 countries.
CEO Shoaib Shaikh found to be owner of several shell companies in the US and other Caribbean countries that were used to channel funds to Pakistan.
Shaikh used a pseudonym on documentation linked to offshore companies.
Shaikh became a citizen of St. Kitts and Nevis, a small Caribbean island that sells passports to rich investors.
Axact sales agents employees used "threats and false promises" and impersonated government officials to rake money from customers, mostly in the Middle East.
The company earned at least $89 million in its final year of operation through illicit operations.

So, initial suspicions that Dawood Ebrahim had a hand in the whole scheme was not fiction :mrgreen:
Axact CEO Shoaib Ahmed Shaikh, managers Viqas Atique, Zeeshan Anwar, Mohammad Sabir and Zeeshan Ahmed and 14 other officials/employees of software firm Axact were booked in May last year for allegedly preparing and selling fake degrees, diplomas and accreditation certificates of fictitious schools/universities through a fraudulent online system and illegally minting “hundreds of millions of dollars".
The Federal Investigation Agency filed a final charge-sheet in the case last month, but the accused await trial.
If, Deep State is involved, than this FIA investigation, will go the same way as the Mumbai Attack probe, the Hamid Mir assassination attempt, the BB murder case, the Akbar Bugti case and countless others !
According to the new report, United States officials had informed Pakistani authorities that the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) had identified Axact as a “diploma mill” that operated a “worldwide web of shell companies and associates.”
Sheikh was found to be the owner of three of the offshore firms, registered in Delaware, that were used to channel “illicit earnings” to Pakistan, the NYT report quoted US officials as saying.
"Poor Sheikh" is just a benami front man !
Citing "hundreds of hours of taped phone conversations extracted from Axact servers", the NYT report said Axact sales agents impersonated American lawyers or US State Department officials to cajole customers into paying more money.
In one case mentioned in the report of such impersonation, a Pakistani man pleaded for respite from "Jacob" — an Axact sales agent acting as a US university official.
“Please, please, Mr. Jacob,” said the man, saying he had already paid $150,000 to Axact. “I have sold all of my assets to pay this last amount. I am not eating well. I am not sleeping well.”
“Look, you’re not paying that much,” the sales agent responded, before threatening with possible police action. “Just another $10,000.”
According to prosecution documents quoted by the NYT report, at least 32 bank accounts linked to Axact, holding millions of dollars, exist in various countries. Three banks accounts linked to Shaikh were frozen in the US lawsuit.
The investigation against Axact hit a snag when special public prosecutor Zahid Jamil, who was at the centre of the prosecution, quit the proceedings citing only "circumstances" that would make it difficult for him to continue, before the trial was to begin.
Read: Charge-sheet against Axact submitted
According to the NYT report, two judges involved in the proceedings have excused themselves without explanation.
Media analysts speculate Axact CEO's power connections "may yet work in his favor", the report said, adding that Shaikh "publicly boasted of his work for the Pakistani military".
If I am not incorrect, Declan Walsh himself was a target of Paki Security Agencies , before he was expelled from there!

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby JE Menon » 11 Apr 2016 21:47

^^It may have been because of his Axact related investigative journalism... While most people thought it had something to do with the ununiformed jihadis.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby CRamS » 11 Apr 2016 23:07

So here is this Rajeev Sharma whoever he is, pleading with TSP, oh please don't stop the p!ss, US will beat us both

http://www.rediff.com/news/column/expec ... 160411.htm


Pakistan must understand that it gains nothing by maximalist diplomacy wherein it arrogates all the aces in the game to itself, leaving nothing for India. It has to provide a level playing field to the other side. This at a time when the international community, particularly the Americans, is increasing pressure on the Indians and Pakistanis to resume dialogue.



I mean from India's PoV, what is this crap of TSP giving anything to India? They attacked India, they c!ock a snook at India with this bogus JIT, China plays dirty, US is a slime ball, and India has no cards to play?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby Bhurishrava » 11 Apr 2016 23:20

Modi`s Pakistan policy has been a disaster as is evident in Basit`s bleatings and the `RAW agent nautanki` pulled by Islamabad not to mention the `egg in the face` report by Pakistani Investigation team invited by him.
He has been no different from MMS. Unless there is something concrete to show, IMHO, I am justified in criticising him. That Modi and Doval are doing something that we dont know of, is like those 72 houris that the momeens get by blowing themselves up.
The whole crap about dividing the Paki civilian leaders from military ones is also the snake oil, best peddled by the likes of Aiyar and Malhotra. If Modi is trying to achieve anything on those lines by going to Sharief`s birthday party, he is an even bigger idiot. Everyone knows that Nawaz has no real power and if he tries to get any he will be bumped off. So what is this attempted friendship drama being attempted by Modi.
Like I said before, I will continue to support Modi because there are more dangerous snakes lurking around. But thats about it.

Last one from me on this thread regarding Modi.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby CRamS » 11 Apr 2016 23:48

Bhurishrava wrote:The whole crap about dividing the Paki civilian leaders from military ones is also the snake oil, best peddled by the likes of Aiyar and Malhotra. If Modi is trying to achieve anything on those lines by going to Sharief`s birthday party, he is an even bigger idiot. Everyone knows that Nawaz has no real power and if he tries to get any he will be bumped off. So what is this attempted friendship drama being attempted by Modi.


I agree, but I will add one key fact that we on BR know, but somehow it gets buried in the domestic and international discourse on TSP. And that is, there may be differences between TSP civvies and military at a domestic level for the sake of power and any number of things, but when it comes to India, all those b@stards are hand in glove.

Hajam Soothy represents the quintessential face of civvies and "moderate Pakis". And have you ever seen that b@satrd sounding conciliatory or owning up to TSP terror without the equal equal? The most disgusting comment from this "moderate Paki" was after 26/11: "dus bachae" humiliated India and hence they are angry.

I have seen any number of "moderate Pakis" in US evetns, they are eloquent and viscous when talking about RSS, Shive Sena, BJP, you name it; of course egged along by our demented cowards, and American think tank slime balls; and rarely about TSP ideology (like Fair didi says it these days).

If Doval and ModiJi are basing their love-fest with Badmaash based on these differences, they are complete fools, and I am sure they are not.

TSP is the enemy, and India should emphasize that.

Like I said before, I will continue to support Modi because there are more dangerous snakes lurking around. But thats about it.



Absolutely. I mean having someone like Rahul Gandhi or some other Conggoon or AAPturd, or JDU etc, the spectacle will be even worse; it will by those snakes + TSP Vs BJP (and other nationalists) to bring p!ss to "South Asia". It will good bye Kashmir valley under the grouse of "joint sovereignty".

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby UlanBatori » 12 Apr 2016 00:06

So the Paki IT corporation was set up to sell American visas inside America, and they are so powerful that they can scare a Special Prosecutor (yes, from 'one community') and two judges away from the investigation!! Quintessential Pakistani. They should be given the Nishaan-e-Jinnah with the Goat-Dropping Cluster.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby Rudradev » 12 Apr 2016 00:15

CRamS wrote:
Anyway, my point being that all this tamasha for international (read American) optics, how much does it actually fetch India? And that too at the cost of India's H&D at the hands of TSP, not to mention lives lost etc? Or lets say, India adopts what I suggest in https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewt ... 7#p2003027, how much would India lose from what it ostensibly "gains" now?


CRamSji,

This is hard to quantify on the basis of what two-bit shills like Gaffney or Uneven Cohen might like to claim. The only way it is possible to quantify what our diplomatic measures in terms of optics (and no, they aren't exclusively for American eyes) actually fetch India is to estimate using cases where they have actually been employed in conjunction with direct military means.

I would take the Bangladesh war as one example. Between December 1970 and the beginning of hostilities, Mrs. IG and her MEA (Sardar Swaran Singh) visited DOZENS of international capitals to directly convey India's point of view regarding the genocide in East Pakistan, the undermining of democracy by Islamabad, and the massive humanitarian and economic crisis India was facing as a result of the refugee efflux. The word "dossier" has become a laughable term on BRF these days, but that is what our highest MEA officials and diplomatic corps used as the stock-in-trade of our offensive... coldly detailing evidence of every one of the Pakistan army's atrocities and resulting catastrophes.

What use was it? If you go by the standards of "H&D" and such, very little was *visibly* achieved. The Indo-Soviet treaty in Moscow was the big prize. The only other country to positively offer assistance to India was Israel (with whom, ironically, we had no diplomatic relations at the time).

Other countries like Egypt (banditji's Non-Aligned ally) suddenly discovered their uber green-ness and refused to even entertain our diplomatic missions. Doors were definitely slammed in the faces of our highest officials, in various places. In the vast majority of nations visited, nothing was achieved that was ever published or written about in the newspapers. True enough, diplomacy is a very quiet and un-sexy business, especially when it is working as planned. Most promises and reassurances and deals made in this realm actually RELY on absolute concealment from public scrutiny in order to function.

But if you read "The Blood Telegram", for instance, you will see that even in a Washington DC with the most anti-Indian president of all time in charge, our diplomatic offensive was STILL serving as a constraint on what Nixon & Kissinger could or could not do in support of Pakistan. Ironically, at that time it was the State Dept. under William P Rodgers who were the relatively less pro-Pakistan (if not totally pro-India) faction of the administration. US Ambassador to India Kenneth Keating pushed our case admirably well, to the extent that Nixon suspected him of having been "turned" by the Indians. And in the Senate, then opposition leader Ted Kennedy lambasted the Nixon administration about supporting Yahya's genocidal acts time and again. All this didn't happen because Keating or Kennedy were simple, honest and well-meaning folk (like Archer Blood). It happened because, even at that lean and friendless time, our diplomatic community was working its tail off to cultivate a lobby in Washington, and giving them things to work with.

What was the sum total gain of our worldwide diplomatic offensive? 13 days. Assurances were publicly there from the Russians to India, from the US and the Chinese to Pakistan. The other assurances that were privately conveyed to either side, the public still doesn't know about. But in the event, the net effect was to ensure that whatever the US did in support of Pakistan was too little too late... the Soviet subs had time to position themselves in proximity to the Bay of Bengal by the time the Enterprise CBG arrived, and the Chinese never lifted a finger at all.

What complicated (and largely invisible) network of pressures and counter-pressures sustained India's freedom to engage in an overt military campaign between 3rd and 16th December, nobody knows. What we do know is that the heroes of that war... FM Maneckshaw, Generals Arora and Jacob (and the men under their commands) turned every second of those 13 days into pure gold, and achieved more with that very limited window of time than perhaps any other army in modern history. Still, the 13 days had to be bought somehow.

If we had not provided our lobby in the US (or the UN, or in European capitals) with the "optics" they needed, would Nixon have been able to support Pakistan much more openly? Would they have received their F108s and other weapons earlier through direct US military aid channels? Would Russia have been as willing to stake what they did on supporting us? Would China have been emboldened? Who knows. We can argue as much as we want about it in hindsight. But at the time, the GOI who would be responsible for the conduct of a war AND its consequences did not take any chances. They did not sit around worrying about H&D (even though many slights to Indian diplomats did occur as we went door-to-door). They did what was needed to buy the IA what time they could to do its job.

And another thing. People here want "visible" action. I was not alive at the time of the '71 war but I know some forum-ites certainly were. I would like to ask them for their recollections: at the time we were arming, training and deploying the Mukti Bahini, was this involvement widely trumpeted in the Indian news media? Did the GOI go around shouting from the rooftops about how it was giving Pakistan all these highly effective jhaapads, and protecting India's "H&D" by doing so,? I seriously doubt it, myself, but I would sincerely like to know.

Rudradev
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby Rudradev » 12 Apr 2016 01:34

Bhurishrava wrote:Modi`s Pakistan policy has been a disaster as is evident in Basit`s bleatings and the `RAW agent nautanki` pulled by Islamabad not to mention the `egg in the face` report by Pakistani Investigation team invited by him.
He has been no different from MMS. .


Bhurishrava ji,

When I read such a statement from you, I can only give you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that you have no idea what the MMS govt was really up to.

Were you fully aware of what was really going on between 2004-2014? Did you observe a narrative being steadily, systematically built up about "Hindu terrorism"...with the relentless demonization of Hindus in Gujarat, the sensationalization of the Malegaon blasts, and the utter slander being perpetuated about the Samjhauta Express blast (actually conducted by Arif Qasmani of the LeT?) Did it shock you that these very same, fabricated, trumped-up charges used by the MMS government against Indian citizens were being repeated verbatim by Pakistani spokesmen as a defence of Pakistan terrorism at every opportunity? Were you following the intense pressure on Maharashtra ATS to nail "Hindu terror" suspects by hook or by crook, a pressure stiffly resisted by Hemant Karkare until his (for the Congress) extremely convenient murder on 26/11?

Do you remember the "red threads" that the 26/11 terrorists wore on their wrists: a story that the Congress-driven Indian news media quickly drew attention to even while the attacks were still in progress? Do you realize that, but for the actions of a completely fearless cop named Tukaram Ombale, those "red threads" would have been the subject of laser-like focus to demarcate the attackers as Hindu terrorists... a program of malicious disinformation that had already been set in motion? Do you understand that, if the SIM cards used by the Pakistanis hadn't luckily been derived from a cache planted on the LeT by Indian agents, we would not have been able to track their conversations with ISI handlers, and nor would we have any proof of Pakistan's involvement?

What does all this tell you? What does it tell you that Chidambaram and Kapil Sibal were pressuring our own intelligence agencies to stifle the connection between Ishrat Jahan and the LeT? What do all these realities tell you, in addition to the fact that Rahul Gandhi made a point of mentioning to the US Ambassador (in the full glare of media, and with no relevant context) that "Hindu Terrorism is the greatest danger to India"? What about AK Antony (the "clean" one) giving deniability to Pakistani BATs as merely "miscreants who happened to be wearing military uniforms?"

They tell me that a highly motivated and strongly resourced campaign was in full swing to CRIMINALIZE politically assertive Hindus. Using exactly the same tools… atrocity literature, heavily propagandized distortions, and outright lies… that the British used to criminalize various tribes whom they went on to subjugate, massacre, and dispossess. It began with the extremely sophisticated campaign to blame the victims at Godhra/Ahmedabad, carried on through the years of SIMI terrorism misguided activities of miscreant youth, continued up to the Batla House encounter, and on past 26/11 itself. In some instances, it is only through the fortuitous interventions of our Gods themselves that these plans did not succeed.

If all had gone according to the plans that the Sonia Gandhi regime was pursuing in concert with Pakistani interests: the RSS, BJP, VHP, and all other assertively Hindu political organizations would have been ultimately designated as terrorist groups and subject to all kinds of legal, social and economic sanctions... up to and including outright bans... both within and outside the country. As for people like you and me, it's anybody's guess whether we would have been able to freely and safely post on forums like this.

THAT was the MMS government's Pakistan policy. To work with Pakistan for the total subjugation of any kind of Hindu political assertiveness, using the justification that it was equal-equal to Islamic terrorism. Once that argument had been swallowed, it would have been on to withdrawing from Sir Creek/Siachen, "joint sovereignty" in J&K, etc. etc.

Please keep this in mind when you say Modi is “no different” just because he isn’t giving you a nice, loud, made-for-TV response to Pathankot.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby A_Gupta » 12 Apr 2016 01:42

Rudradev wrote:And another thing. People here want "visible" action. I was not alive at the time of the '71 war but I know some forum-ites certainly were. I would like to ask them for their recollections: at the time we were arming, training and deploying the Mukti Bahini, was this involvement widely trumpeted in the Indian news media? Did the GOI go around shouting from the rooftops about how it was giving Pakistan all these highly effective jhaapads, and protecting India's "H&D" by doing so,? I seriously doubt it, myself, but I would sincerely like to know.


a. Brilliant post.

b. I was very young at the time of the '71 war; but Indian involvement was very muted, as I remember. The main Indian theme was supporting the 10 million refugees who had fled into India; and every postal mail (remember that?) had an extra refugees stamp.

http://www.rhcourtney-collector.com/refugeerelief.html

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Jan 24, 2

Postby A_Gupta » 12 Apr 2016 01:45

Rudradev wrote:
THAT was the MMS government's Pakistan policy. To work with Pakistan for the total subjugation of any kind of Hindu political assertiveness, using the justification that it was equal-equal to Islamic terrorism. Once that argument had been swallowed, it would have been on to withdrawing from Sir Creek/Siachen, "joint sovereignty" in J&K, etc. etc.

Please keep this in mind when you say Modi is “no different” just because he isn’t giving you a nice, loud, made-for-TV response to Pathankot.


Another brilliant post. There is some value to reading CRamS if it results in posts like this.


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