Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

John · Post by **John** » 17 Apr 2016 22:29

The manuvering sharply should not be taken literally. Consider it is capable of intercepting Yakhont it needs to be able to do much better than mach 3 to intercept that. Israel is pretty tight lipped about specs of the missile and orginal req called for missile similar in performance to Aster 30 in speed and range. Since then it supposedly has topped it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Apr 2016 22:59

Well he says that literally so I find his claim doubtful at best. Let's wait till we officially from IAI or DRDO

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Apr 2016 02:13

Well Shukla has been pretty ok (in teh ballpark) regarding most of the stuff he hears - he quotes verbatim. I agree 2M seems to be on the low, censored side for the missile.

John · Post by **John** » 18 Apr 2016 03:25

As per Armada international it quotes top speed at mach 4.5.

srai · Post by **srai** » 18 Apr 2016 16:32

^^^

It seems some are getting confused with target speeds of Mach 2+ with that of the speed of Barak-8. It can intercept targets like Yakhont SSM which has a sustained speeds of Mach 2. So barak-8 would need to be a lot faster than that. Like John pointed out, if Barak-8's top speed is only Mach 2 then it won't be able to intercept a target also flying at Mach 2. The window of kill opportunity would be non-existent especially if Yakhont is maneuvering or receding.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Apr 2016 21:00

We will have to wait till DRDO releases official specs on Barak-8 , too many contradicting information on the program

jayasimha · Post by **jayasimha** » 21 Apr 2016 16:45

I get goose bumps when nothing is posted in miggile dhaaga..

http://baodatviet.vn/quoc-phong/binh-lu ... s-3306248/

Correct me if i am wrong,,,,,, viatnam to get 2000 Brahmos this year

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 22 Apr 2016 17:45

DSA 2016: Progress reported on BrahMos air-launched variant

Representatives of the joint Indian-Russian missile project, BrahMos, told IHS Jane's at DSA 2016, that the final, air-launched, version of the missile is close to being operational and the final steps could be taken this year.

The missile, which is already deployed at about 10 naval vessels of the Indian Armed Forces and also operated as a ground-launched tactical missile on mobile launchers, will now be available to the air force.

The BrahMos will be carried on Indian Air Force (IAF) Sukhoi Su-30MKI aircraft. A single missile is to be mounted on a specially built pylon that is placed centreline on the aircraft. The Su-27/30 design of a twin but separated engine concept "provides an aerodynamic cross-section that works well with the BrahMos design," said one specialist assigned to the programme.

The BrahMos design is a co-operative programme that is led by India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and NPO Mashinostroyenia (NPOM) in Russia. It is based on the supersonic, Yakhont cruise missile that was first developed by NPOM in the 1980s. The missile retains much of the Russian aerodynamic design but uses a number of Indian-made on-board systems. The acronym BrahMos was coined by combining the names of the most famous rivers in the two nations: the Brahmaputra in India and the Moscow river in Russia.

Design specialists that have worked on the programme for a number of years have told IHS Jane's that in addition to designing and building the launcher rail for the BrahMos to be fired from the Su-30MKI, there were other greater technical challenges. One was "integrating the BrahMos guidance system into the Su-30MKI's fire-control system - there had to be some specific software protocol conversions written in order to make the Indian-produced components interface with the Sukhoi's on-board main-mission computer."

Another issue was that "since the aircraft it is fired from is already travelling at or close to supersonic speeds, the air-launched version of the missile required a much smaller booster motor. However, the launch sequence had to be changed so that the missile separates from the aircraft before the booster fires instead of the booster igniting straightaway as it does in a ship-board or land-based launch." The BrahMos is the type of strategically-important weapon system that will become increasingly 'popular' with Asian military establishments, according to one of the Russia-based project engineers. "We can already see how other nations are trying to emulate this kind of functionality - sometimes including the design itself." The latter was in reference to the Chinese CX-1 missile that was seen at the Zhuhai Air Show in November 2014 that appeared to be a "close cousin" of the BrahMos design.

One of foremost concerns for the Indian armed forces, for which the BrahMos becomes a key solution, is the recent announcement by the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) that it will build a series of new aircraft carriers similar to the Ukrainian-built Liaoning design that is already in service. The BrahMos is one of the few weapons with both the range and warhead to be effective against this size and type of platform.

Shanu · Post by **Shanu** » 24 Apr 2016 17:09

Russia is testing a hypersonic glide delivery system for its new nuclear ballistic missile system.

http://www.worldbulletin.net/africa/171 ... akh-border

A report in RT has claimed that it has tested a new “hypersonic glide vehicle” which can blast past missile defences & fire nuclear warheads at its enemies. The new technology will make it impossible its enemies’ defences to calculate the warhead’s trajectory before it is too late.
According to the media site, the test of the hypersonic cruise vehicle was a success after launching a UR-100N strategic ballistic missile near the Kazakhstan border.
The new RS-28 missile that military experts hope to arm the vehicle with is reportedly capable of carrying a ten ton payload, which can strike in any direction once it is launched.

As we are testing our RLV next month, hope we can try something similar for our Agni series.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Apr 2016 17:31

Rafale offsets.

On the plus side, hopefully radar and C3I wll be Indian.

http://www.janes.com/article/59698/mbda ... equirement

MBDA offers VL MICA-based solution for Indian Navy SRSAM requirement
Jayesh Dhingra, Bangalore - IHS Jane's Missiles & Rockets
21 April 2016
Key Points

SRSAM is slated to replace Barak 1 in Indian Navy service

MBDA is advancing co-development of a vertical launch (VL) MICA-based solution to India's Defence Research and Development Establishment (DRDO) to secure the Indian Navy's (IN'S) short range surface-to air-missile (SRSAM) requirement.

VL MICA is a short-range fire-and-forget missile that can be equipped with either infrared (IR) homing seeker (VL MICA IR) or with an active radar (VL MICA RF). The navy's SRSAM requirement is for a vertically launched system with 360° coverage to engage hostile targets at a range of up to 15 km. SRSAM will technically replace the Israel Aerospace Industries/ Rafael Advanced Defence Systems Barak 1 point defence missile in IN service

John · Post by **John** » 24 Apr 2016 23:10

I still don't understand SR SAM procurement considering barak 8 can be fitted on vessel that can carry Vl Mica and price difference shouldn't be that much. We should rather work on domestic point defense system/CIWS that can replace ak 630 perhaps a gun missile combo.

As for SR SAM procurement it seems to be politically driven to keep french happy.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Apr 2016 23:26

Supposedly IN wants it to reduce risk ..

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 24 Apr 2016 23:42

Why not Astra?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Apr 2016 23:49

Why not.. I guess they just want a missile which can intercept sea skimmers available double quick.. all software, hardware worked out.. no Barak-8 issue.

John · Post by **John** » 25 Apr 2016 00:29

Unless vl mica gets upgraded, Barak 8 has far superior minimum range, much bigger warhead and lower reaction time than VL Mica. With MBDA actively pushing much superior CAMM missile i don't think its even going to get much more export sales. Speaking of that why is CAAM not being considered, mbda seems to be desperately trying to recoup its investment from IN.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Apr 2016 03:21

Qn for IN then! They reportedly asked for 9 SRSAMs @ 40 missiles each.

IAF ok with Akash.

Plus for IA, QRSAM is being developed but IA may buy SpyDer as interim.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 25 Apr 2016 07:32

One thing IN should already know
French SAMs are useless against NATO navies

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Apr 2016 11:32

They should go for a tender and select what is best available when it comes to SRSAM , Mica would be the most costly option.

Why not just navalise the Astra ?

Another good option to look into is Naval Pantsyr system which is Gun/Missile combo

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... fense.html

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 25 Apr 2016 23:57

The main selling points of Maitri system are:

- Does not need a fire control radar. The missile is aimed and fired using the search radar - especially useful quality aboard ships.

- I deduce, that the above system allows for tackling multiple threats

- The search radar is already in wide service with all 3 services.

- High indian component

- Presumed commonality with IAF Micas

I think eventually the Astra may replace Mica, but first the former needs to prove itself as a AAM.

Austin wrote:They should go for a tender and select what is best available when it comes to SRSAM , Mica would be the most costly option.

Why not just navalise the Astra ?

Another good option to look into is Naval Pantsyr system which is Gun/Missile combo

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... fense.html

John · Post by **John** » 26 Apr 2016 03:32

Considering Astra is bigger that Mica I doubt CLA can carry it.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 27 Apr 2016 16:07

Finally the deal the been inked.

Russia, India sign contract to supply S-400 missile defense system – reports - RT.com

Russia and India have signed a contract for the supply of advanced S-400 air defense systems, Indian officials said, according to Russian news agencies. The delivery will happen “as soon as possible,” he said.

The signing of the contract has been confirmed by an Indian official at an international security forum in Moscow, RIA Novosti and Interfax news agencies reported.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 27 Apr 2016 18:41

Picture of DRDO Glide Bomb from MOD Annual Report 2016 (sorry for the delayed post)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Apr 2016 19:12

This will decimate the PAF AD based around the SPADA and compensate for our ARM issues. DEAD. Even useful against the PLAAF. Cost of a 100 of these will be << cost of a 100 PLAAF S-300 rounds!

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 27 Apr 2016 19:21

Long range attacks against fixed C2 targets would be exponentially improved through this, particularly if they build anti-jam capability and/or a multi-seeker version. For the PLAAF, they'd hold the S300, 400, and HQ9's for the shooters and Ballistic Missiles, and lower cost systems like their PANTSR-like systems and the ND-2000 for the munitions.

http://defenseupdates.blogspot.com/2012 ... huhai.html

srai · Post by **srai** » 27 Apr 2016 19:43

Kakarat wrote:Picture of DRDO Glide Bomb from MOD Annual Report 2016 (sorry for the delayed post)

Nice. Finally we get to see it.

Old picture of a kit (supposedly):

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Apr 2016 19:51

But they can't have everything everywhere.. and I suspect most of their S-3XX complexes when deployed as mobile ones will be expected to self defend.. with the Tier-1 gold stuff deployed for Beijing and strat assets.

This glide bomb will likely rely on INS fixed with GPS/Glonass with the same MINGS used on Agni or a variant as on the Astra. Doubtful GPS/Glonass will be jammed throughout the trajectory as it will probably take corrections a couple of times alone.. and at launch would rely on launching aircraft which would be far away from GPS jamming.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 27 Apr 2016 20:02

There PANTSIR clones are also mobile, and so its this particular system. Given the PGM threat they face from east and west I'd think they would intermingle quite a few of these systems within their IADS setup. Makes sense given that they had mobility requirements. The ultimate IADS would be the main system (S300, S400, HQ9 and its offshoots), lower tiered SAM's, the Sky Dragon 12 etc and the guns. Bonus components could be EW systems targeting GPS etc..Not all would obviously have such layer but most targets of interest would given the PGM inventory that the IAF is likely to build, the US, Japan and others already have etc. But these are valuable options to complicate the shot doctrine for sure...and my ultimate wish is to have dead loads or cooperative PGM targeting where there are 3-4 actual bombs mixed with 6-10 decoys all networked through a cheap LAN...

..The day isn't far when PGM swarms guided by a multi-spectral queen bee

guides the others to target.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBBBKQWXNq4

http://www.armyrecognition.com/china_ch ... 01165.html

Whatever may be the deployments, I doubt that their shot doctrine would call for using S300 rounds against PGM's..they are far better off protecting these assets using more sustainable and affordable systems optimized for such a role or augment the S300's anti-platform/carrier capability with a layered CAP..otherwise its Bye Bye for those really expensive Solid State phased array radars..

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Apr 2016 20:46

What I meant is the S-3XX is mobile.. it can and will be deployed for PLAAF taskings. However, not sure whether they will have the depth of support assets necessary to always ring it with cheaper missiles.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Apr 2016 20:54

Russia, India Sign Agreement on S-400 Defense Systems Deliveries - Official

New Delhi and Moscow have signed an agreement on the deliveries of S-400 air defense systems, Indian Minister of State Rao Inderjit Singh said Wednesday.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) – The S-400 is Russia's next-generation air defense system, carrying three different types of missiles capable of destroying aerial targets at short-to-extremely long range. It is capable of tracking and destroying all existing aerial targets, including ballistics and cruise missiles.

"We've signed that agreement," Singh said.

When asked to give a date on the first deliveries of the defense system, Singh said, "It's hard to say, but as soon as possible."

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/2016042 ... z472rcd4N0

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Apr 2016 20:55

Wonder why MOD State spilled the bean of the deal got signed when GOI kept this under wraps so far , May be a denial will come from MOD

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 27 Apr 2016 20:57

The older ones may or may not, but the more modernized ones would most likely given how significant the stand-OFF glide PGM threat (JDAM, JDAM-ER SDB, JSOW, GBU-X, SPICE, multiple indigenous Indian PGM's, etc etc ) is to them. Same for their S300 clones, and the higher end S400's and whatever clones they make of that..those will get a layered protection not only because these themselves are expensive assets but also because China is fast moving to a very comprehensive localized A2AD strategy (the COMPLEX approach) and if your some of your main elements in that strategy aren't survivable or don't impose a significant cost to defeating or even degrading them, then you haven't really thought it fully through. The current systems they are fielding or those that they have showcased recently are as mobile or deployable as the fastest element of the S300/400...there were even tracked versions of these envisioned iirc.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Apr 2016 20:59

Rao Inderjit Singh probably doesn't realize how much howling at the moon will occur on all Indian defense forums now.

Cue Parsoon to make a blogpost combining Martian aerostats with S-400 with Israeli radar, Ukrainian wiring and French radios in 5. 4, 3, 2....

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Apr 2016 21:00

BTW, this does mean Modi is putting plans in place to deter TSP/PRC. Not just dhanda.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Apr 2016 21:11

imo even a oerlikon skyshield kind of gun system with a few units networked around target should be able to conduct defence against LGBs, AASMs and glide bombs given their relatively low subsonic speed. the powered ones proper CMs like jassm/nirbhay/brahmos et al might be able to put on a last burst of speed by burning more fuel and have the luxury of energy wasting sharp moves which the gliders cannot take.

for the hard targets the S300 complexes we still need nirbhay,brahmos and other powered weapons like shourya and KH59

others are fine for gliders and wing kits

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 27 Apr 2016 21:17

The Russian and the Chinese are layering up their anti-PGM and smart weapon capability. This would involve gun systems, smaller self-contained SAM's and/or SAM gun mix's and Electronic Warfare set ups that could range from GPS scramblers to more powerful systems that disrupt Satellites. The Answer is to move to a SOS approach in the PGM domain and this means making smart weapons actually smart, and autonomous with the ability to cooperatively target among other similar weapons. Not easy to do with glide munitions but that is where the research and requirements are headed since a very smart PGM will still be smaller, cheaper and easier to maintain than a very expensive, fast weapon. Again, as I said if you can create very low cost Data links (there have been some very interesting research papers with system costs in the hundreds of dollars) you can network weapons with dummies and decoys...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Apr 2016 21:21

Singha wrote:imo even a oerlikon skyshield kind of gun system with a few units networked around target should be able to conduct defence against LGBs, AASMs and glide bombs given their relatively low subsonic speed. the powered ones proper CMs like jassm/nirbhay/brahmos et al might be able to put on a last burst of speed by burning more fuel and have the luxury of energy wasting sharp moves which the gliders cannot take.

for the hard targets the S300 complexes we still need nirbhay,brahmos and other powered weapons like shourya and KH59

others are fine for gliders and wing kits

you just launch more. and overwhelm the defenses. and from multiple directions. not one alone.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Apr 2016 21:27

since the dummies will still occupy a pylon and need all the brains of a real weapon . why not pay a little more for the warhead and improve the Pk of the swarm ?

Rus has deployed some pantsyr at hymenim afb to back up the S400, but they have SA15 as well if needed - these are VL boxes on tracked vehicle.

double kill on a low flying CM drone

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Apr 2016 21:37

You send a Su-30 squadron, half with ten of these glide bombs in and then send in Jags with Spice-250 or whatever. That's 90 ASMs (to soak up the defences and empty them, mission killing them) and then a dozen Spice will do the rest with selective targeting of the C3I, PA radars etc.

Akash's relatively low cost round approach is essential for such targets.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Apr 2016 21:37

Karan M wrote:Rao Inderjit Singh probably doesn't realize how much howling at the moon will occur on all Indian defense forums now.

Cue Parsoon to make a blogpost combining Martian aerostats with S-400 with Israeli radar, Ukrainian wiring and French radios in 5. 4, 3, 2....

I recollect during Chakra deal which was signed during ABV era , GOI and Ru GOI kept denying it for many years even though many media reports mentioned the deal was signed , finally offical acknowledgment came just a year before it was handed over to India.

I would expect if this is not an authorised statement MOD to deny it and so will the Russian.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Apr 2016 21:40

Rao Inderjit Singh is MOS. He is as senior as it gets..

I suspect though GOI didn't want this info out since it will tell the opponent what we are doing. Ideally, all our BMD/Strat Air Defence should be zero publicity.