Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

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kit
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by kit »

Cybaru wrote:Damn, thats crowded harbor! We need boats bigger than Maruti Alto.. Sheesh, this thing is tiny! How long does this stay in water again?

Well at least its in the water! Congratulations IN. Two new Subs for you. One Diesel and one nuke soon.
quite small for a 500 million boat :eek:


In 2005, India chose the Scorpène design; purchasing six submarines for US$3 billion ($500 million per boat)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorp%C3% ... _submarine
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by srai »

This picture shows relative diameter of a Scorpene. Roughly 12 people sitting across at the widest point.

Image
Karan M
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Karan M »

Seems like Scorpene is light combat boat with focus on smallest, lightest etc. :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Karan M »

Waiting for IN to ask for Medium Multirole Combat Boat in the form of 75I. :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

The conning tower barely has space for two
People to stand up, but looks big vs the hull.
The hull is truly subcompact but crew being
Less maybe more roomy than kilo
Kilo looks buffed up due to double hull
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by krishna_krishna »

Good to see sword arm of the IN getting beefed up. Was painful to see bunch of submarines go down. But Sindhukirti refit and now this will add much needed punch.

Would love to see a follow up order on scorpene and Kilos till they decide on P75-I. Up your ass porkis and your 3.5 biraders
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by suryag »

Very little wake
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Sid »

Is that a sea surveillance radar in submarine. Can someone identy all the periscopes on this boat? Some look similar to what we have on Arihant.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

The Scorpene is a very expensive boat for its capability. A larger,double-hulled more capable boat,the Kilo 636.3 ,which can launch 300KM range mach 3.0 terminal warhead Klub missile variants, costs only $300M.A Kilo can also be built in just two years.The Scorpenes can launch only Exocet sub-sonic anti-ship missiles with an inferior range. It would be v.interesting to see how the Scorpene performs against the older U-209s,which are of similar size. With Oz set to receive superior French Shortfin Barracuda subs in the future,the IN should stop the Scorpene number at 6 and look for a better conventional AIP design apartf rom the 6 SSNs to be built in India.THis is also becos the Oz navy has a long-term plan to acquire N-subs.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/sout ... f6dbdcf09c
Business SA says Future Submarine fleet could include nuclear-powered versions once local atomic industry is established
April 30, 2016

State political reporter Daniel WillsParis, FranceSunday Mail (SA)
Weatherill tours french submarine factory

POWERFUL BOND: Vive le Shortfin Barracuda
WEATHERILL IN FRANCE: Subs to create more jobs than expected
MADE IN SA: Subs to be built by French firm in Adelaide
BRIGHTER FUTURE: Subs help save state from economic disaster
DAVID PENBERTHY: Lazy scribes should look closely at subs deal
AUSTRALIA’S future submarine fleet could be transitioned to include a potent mix of both intelligence gathering diesel boats and rapid, fast-moving nuclear-powered vessels once the state develops a sophisticated atomic industry based around storage, Business SA says.

The Federal Government is facing calls from across the strategic policy and business communities, as well as from an outspoken SA Senator, to strongly consider the nuclear option.


READ BELOW: Lib MP in subs ‘sheltered workshop’ jibe

SA rejoiced this week in the glow of thousands of promised new jobs as the Federal Government selected French naval giant DCNS to build 12 new conventional diesel-powered subs in Port Adelaide, which are charged with defending the nations water for a generation.

Premier Jay Weatherill visited DCNS’ Cherbourg shipyard last on Friday Adelaide time, just hours after SA was chosen as the likely site of a low-level nuclear waste dump and as former governor Kevin Scare puts the finishing touches on a Royal Commission due for release within days.

Business SA chief executive Nigel McBride, who joined the Cherbourg tour to observe the construction of a nuclear Barracuda sub that will become the template for Australia’s diesel fleet, said there was strong national defence reasons for having a mix of the two.

Diesel subs are prized for their ability to become completely silent when powered down, while nuclear vessels are much faster and do not need to resurface for fuel and battery charging.

Business SA chief executive Nigel McBride.
Australian Strategic Policy institute senior analyst Mark Thomson said it was a “no-brainer” to go with nuclear subs if politics allowed it, and Family First Senator Bob Day claims national security will be put at risk is the state fails go for a more potent and tested design.

Mr McBride told the Sunday Mail that building community confidence behind nuclear storage was crucial before the question of expanding the industry into defence capabilities.

“As we’ve gone around Europe and looked at their nuclear cycle, and take into account the likely final recommendations from the Royal Commission in regards to the storage of waste, we will as a nation and state soon come to a decision about if we participate or not,” he said.

“If we do, the question will become how far we want to go and what the country is comfortable with. There will be an enormous opportunity to look at how that will impact upon defence.

Prefect of the Northern Seas Admiral Philippe Ausseur greets Premier Jay Weatherill at the DCNS Shipyard at Cherbourg, France. Picture: Calum Robertson
“We don’t have the capacity at the moment, and we don’t have the on ground industry.”

Mr McBride said storage was a “starting point” in a discussion about other applications.

The first future sub is set to hit the water in the early 2030s, about the time when Mr Scarce says the state could have a storage industry up and running if it moved to do so immediately.

“We walked around a facility today which had a significant nuclear threat, nobody even blinked. We walked around and took it for granted that it would be professionally contained,” Mr McBride said.

“A lot will change over the next decade or so. I think right now that is a conversation that is very difficult to have or even raise. But, yes, logically given that investment you would think it would be valuable to have half conventional submarines and then half nuclear submarines.”

Senator Day said there was “no escaping” the strategic need for nuclear subs.

“Australia’s defence needs are best served by six conventional diesel-powered subs and six nuclear-powered, but not nuclear armed, subs,” he said.

“Australia is a huge continent and the range, speed and capability of nuclear subs is well known.

“The winning DCNS bid links SA with a French nation with nuclear subs and nuclear power. This opens up great opportunities for SA to learn how to embrace all facets of the nuclear fuel cycle.”

Premier Jay Weatherill enjoys a morning coffee near the Madeleine Church in Paris. Picture: Calum Robertson
Mr Thomson said diesel subs were valuable in “certain, specific circumstances”.

“But if you had to choose between 12 nuclear or 12 conventional subs, it’s a no-brainer. You’d have the nuclear subs every time.
Nuclear boats would be difficult, they’d be riskier, they’d be politically probably a bridge too far at this point in time, so hence we went with conventional.

“Nuclear are very fast and can stay submerged for very long periods of time, in fact months.

“When a diesel sub is standing still, it doesn’t have to run anything. It can shut down and doesn’t create the sound of having pumps on a diesel continuously moving.”

Australian law currently bars the use of nuclear subs.

Speaking in Cherbourg, Mr Weatherill said defence use of nuclear technology was not under consideration by the Royal Commission and “not something we are contemplating at the moment”.

“We have a Nuclear Fuel Cycle Royal Commission which is considering elements of the fuel cycle, but that doesn’t extent into defence.”

He has previously said it would take about two decades to build up such a technical capacity, which would require community backing and significant technical investment.

Lib MP in subs ‘sheltered workshop’ jibe

GOVERNMENT MP Dr Dennis Jensen has publicly canned his own party as hunting for votes to save Federal seats in South Australia by awarding the state the $50 billion contract to build 12 submarines

The WA Member of the House of Representatives said that decision was “potentially the biggest boondoggle (an unnecessary, wasteful or fraudulent project) in Australia’s history’’ and that the submarines should be built in WA.

“This is clearly pork-barrelling at a level unseen in our history, all because the government wants to save some seats,’’ Dr Jensen, pictured, wrote on Facebook.

“Our defence should not be hijacked to support some glorified sheltered workshop at massive expense to the taxpayer.’’

Dr Jensen questioned why Australia should have 12 submarines, saying that number was first suggested by former Labor defence minister Kim Beazley then adopted in the Rudd government’s Defence White Paper without a proper analysis.

“We keep doing it with Defence acquisitions,’’ Dr Jensen said. “Just like the Joint Strike Fighter, where a decision was made with no stated requirement and therefore, no analysis comparing contenders against the requirement, we have a similar situation with submarines.

“It may be the case that we do need 12 (subs) but where is the requirement? After all, this is potentially the biggest boondoggle in Australia’s history, costing $2000 for every man woman and child in Australia!”

He said the submarine contact should have gone to Austal Ships, situated near the HMAS Stirling naval base, at Rockingham, WA.

“For a start, Adelaide is about the last place you would build them,’’ he said.

“In terms of geography, the submarines need to transit an awfully long way on the surface before they can even dive for testing and qualification.

“Australia’s best shipbuilder (Austal Ships) is just across Cockburn Sound from HMAS Stirling, where the submarines are based.”
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

instead of the nuclear reactor and steam plant, if the Arihant class gets the diesel engine, DRDO AIP and Li-Ion japani batteries it will make a potent SSK as the size can be brought down by deleting 2 tubes. 2 upsized tubes can be retained for a salvo 8 k15/brahmos or 12 nirbhay...equivalent in capacity to a virginia sub (12 thawks) and more potent weapons in ASM/ballistic profile.

the japanis are smarting from their slap and sulking at the loss of face. now is the time to remind them who their real dharmic friends are and work out some deal to license and produce whatever Soryu subsystems we need to make the Arihant SSK a reality

50% of the test plan will already be done due to Arihant data file, rest of internal things will need verification but again proven for a decade in the Soryu already. the japanese have come with potent new li-ion tech and are throwing away the old kockums stirling engine on Soryu aip module in favour of these.

real goras will always hang together , its time for the honorary goras and kalas to unite :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Cybaru »

That's pretty much what I said in the P75 thread! :) We buy "sub" systems now, no more full subs. We gotta start somewhere. We will be making subs for another 100 years. Might as well begin now.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

Soryu uses this engine, could be licensed from germany or local ... either way no problem.

1-shaft 2× Kawasaki 12V 25/25 SB-type diesel engines diesel-electric

8 boats are already in water and 4 building - every subsystem would be fully debugged by now.
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Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Peregrine »

Singha wrote:Soryu uses this engine, could be licensed from germany or local ... either way no problem.

1-shaft 2× Kawasaki 12V 25/25 SB-type diesel engines diesel-electric

8 boats are already in water and 4 building - every subsystem would be fully debugged by now.
Singha Ji :

I thought these Kawasaki Engines are Licensed from Kockums.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by tsarkar »

What AIP did the Ozzies choose? As per IN, MESMA was not up to the mark.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Austin »

tsarkar wrote:What AIP did the Ozzies choose? As per IN, MESMA was not up to the mark.
A new AIP frm DCN based on Fuel Cell is what I read
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

Peregrine wrote: I thought these Kawasaki Engines are Licensed from Kockums.
Cheers Image
No, these are the main diesel engines. the licensed from kockums are the stirling AIP engine which recharges the batteries. 4× Kawasaki Kockums V4-275R Stirling engines

since the diesels are never really used except for transits and snorkels...uber specs or noise levels do not matter much...we can get it from anywhere including russia.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

http://www.pacom.mil/Media/News/tabid/5 ... lsion.aspx

Japan to Make Major Switch on Sub Propulsion
By Paul Kallender-Umezu | October 02, 2014


TOKYO, Japan --
Japan has decided to power its new batch of Soryu-class submarines with Lithium-ion batteries instead of air-independent propulsion (AIP) technology — a move that could raise eyebrows after similar types batteries were faulted for fires aboard the Boeing 787 Dreamliner.

However, experts brush aside those concerns and instead say this type of technological leap increases power and performance, while reducing maintenance. It also could make Japanese subs more marketable overseas.

Yasushi Kojima, a spokesman for the Maritime Self-Defense Force (MSDF), said the change would affect the next four remaining Soryu-class submarines in Japan’s 10-boat class.
.........

The existing Soryu-class diesel-electric submarines (16SS) use AIP technology based on Kockums Stirling engines license-built by Kawasaki Heavy Industries, allowing them to stay submerged for long periods. The engines power Sweden’s smaller Gotland-class submarines for up to two weeks at 5 knots.

The current Soryu-class submarines are propelled by a large electric motor that has three power sources: diesel engines, the AIP engines and main storage batteries. Diesel engines, which require oxygen for combustion, power the boats on the surface or while snorkeling. The boats can snorkel for extended periods to limit their detectability while transiting submerged (only the snorkel mast is above the water) or for short periods to quickly recharge their batteries after operating underwater. The AIP engines — which burn small quantities of diesel fuel and liquid oxygen — are used for long-range underwater cruising at low speed, and to keep the batteries topped off. The batteries are used for ultra-quiet operation as well as high-speed underwater operations, which quickly depletes them.

By shifting to Lithium-ion batteries, the new Soryus would retain their main propulsion diesels, but be equipped with more powerful and far lower maintenance batteries than lead-acid types widely in use.

......

Six of 10 Soryu-class submarines — which take about four years to build — for Japan have been completed. Japan’s Defense Ministry has just requested 64.4 billion yen (US $589.5 million) to start building one new 2,900-ton Soryu submarine from April 2015, and this — and three other boats — will use Lithium-ion batteries.

The twist comes with the news that the Li-ion batteries for the Soryu subs are to be provided by GS Yuasa Battery, the same supplier of the problematical batteries used on Boeing’s 787 Dreamliners, which have experienced a series of alarming and difficult-to-solve safety issues. Fires and other concerns led both Japan Airlines and All Nippon Airlines to ground fleets in January 2013, causing — for the first time since 1979 — the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to ground all 787s flying with US airlines.

Despite best efforts and ongoing investigations in the US and Japan led by the FAA, Japan Airlines this January reported further fires and meltdowns.
......

Alessio Patalano, an expert on Japan’s Navy at the Department of War Studies at Kings College in London, said the military had been looking at different options in terms of propulsion systems since the early 1990s and that AIP was first studied because fuel cells and Li-ion batteries were because the technology was not sufficiently mature.

“Given that submarines are the tip of the sword of Japan’s military posture … speed and endurance are central to submarine operations and a propulsion system that can offer increased performance in those areas is particularly attractive to the Japanese Navy,” he said.

For the Navy, Kojima said AIP technology, which reduces the speed of submerged submarines to just a few knots, is being increasingly seen as too slow for emerging strategic uses and that the Navy regards AIP as maintenance intensive. Improvements in batteries make this technology the better long-term bet.


Bob Nugent, a consultant at naval consulting firm AMI International, said it is “plausible” that going to Li-ion batteries will provide more speed and power.

The Soryu-class is about one-third larger than most European subs that use AIP technology, he said, adding the increased power and energy density of the batteries would allow for longer cruise and sprint bursts of speed.

“Li-ion-based chemistry could not be made perfectly safe from the thermal runaway issues that have received heavy publicity,” Nugent said. “There are some other options such as fuel cells/AIP, and ultracapacitors, but those also bring with them some technical risk.”
..............

Guy Stitt, AMI International’s president, added that the Japanese Navy is highly capable and risk-averse and that the decision to use the technology would actually represent a “leap forward” in submarine power and that could introduce important operational improvements.

“They are giving up a secondary power generation device by removing the AIP. In exchange, they intend to enlarge and extend their current power storage devices by going from lead-acid batteries to Lithium-ion batteries,” Stitt said. “Lithium-ion batteries offer much greater energy density than current lead-acid batteries. They will have to develop some redundant safety electronics as well to monitor the stability of each battery cell.”
......
Patalano added that “the Japanese are at the forefront of large conventional submarine development. This is a niche market but one with great potential for environmental and operational reasons.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

^^ note they are deleting the AIP totally in favour of better batteries. whether it matches the AIP performance of 2 weeks @ 5 knots is to be found out. perhaps for japan the need for speed and simplicity is more , defending the islands with numerous bases to seek support from.....it might not suit other roles of lone subs patrolling far out from home with enemy threats needing the sub to hide for long
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Peregrine »

Peregrine wrote:I thought these Kawasaki Engines are Licensed from Kockums.
Cheers Image
Singha wrote:No, these are the main diesel engines. the licensed from kockums are the stirling AIP engine which recharges the batteries. 4× Kawasaki Kockums V4-275R Stirling engines

since the diesels are never really used except for transits and snorkels...uber specs or noise levels do not matter much...we can get it from anywhere including russia.
Singha Ji :

Thank you kind sir.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by NRao »

India as a Net Security-Provider in the Indian Ocean and Beyond
By Vice Admiral Pradeep Chauhan (ret)

With the Indian economy continuing to register arguably the highest rate of growth amongst the major economies of the world and the rise of India as a major reckonable power in her own right, come commensurate levels of international responsibility. As the country’s erstwhile National Security Adviser and ex-Foreign Secretary, Mr. Shiv Shankar Menon, had put it, “sooner rather than later India will have to make real political and military contributions to stability and security in this region that is so critical to our economy and security. What has inhibited us since the Seventies have been limited capabilities and the fact that other States were providers of security in the area. Now that both those limiting factors are changing, our approach and behaviour should change in defence of our interests.”[1]

India is actively pursuing and promoting the ‘blueing’ of her burgeoning ocean economy, with her trade to GDP Ratio (Openness Index) recording a decadal average of 40%. The Prime Minister’s firm declaration of national intent for India to be a net security-provider in the Indian Ocean and beyond, means the various connotations of maritime security (defined as freedom from threats emanating ‘in’, ‘from’, or ‘through’ the medium of the sea[2]) can no longer be denied centrality in any serious consideration of India’s national security.

India’s requirement to ensure stability in her maritime neighborhood underpins her acceptance of this role of providing net security. This need for regional stability is informed by a number of reliable studies[3] that show political instability in one’s neighboring countries has a powerful and frequently adverse effect upon one’s own national economy. The magnitude of this effect is similar to that of an equivalent rise in domestic political instability in one’s own country. This negative effect is felt through a number of channels of inter-State commercial interaction. Amongst the principal ones are ‘space-time-and-cost’ disruptions of external trade. These, in turn, affect domestic manufacturing and local consumption and hence, money-flows and market-dynamism. Another is the sharp spurt in military expenditure and outlays as mitigating mechanisms against one’s own country being ‘infected’ by the malaise of instability affecting one or more neighboring or proximate countries. Likewise, increased uncertainty and risk dissuades overseas business-investment[4] as well as physical capital accumulation, not limited to Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) alone. Tourism, which is an important source of revenue and economic buoyancy for many island nations in the Indian Ocean, is similarly adversely affected by catalysts of regional instability — an increased threat of piracy, for example. Indeed, there is “strong empirical support for the proposition that a country’s growth rate depends not only on domestic investment but also on the investment of its neighbouring countries”[5].

In fact, there is growing clarity within New Delhi’s corridors of power that, as Zoltan Merszei famously said, “Money is a coward. Investment capital will not flow down a hazardous, unlit street where the risk is visibly higher than the potential reward[6].” The Business Dictionary defines ‘Risk’ as “the probability of loss inherent in financing methods, which may impair the ability to provide adequate return”[7]. In geopolitical terms, risk may be considered to be the probability of occurrence of an event factored against the degree of loss that is anticipated, should the event occur. In the context of this discussion, I hold that money does not go where there is excessive politico-military uncertainty, since such a condition defines excessive risk.

The 2011 edition of the ‘World Development Report,’ which focused specifically upon conflict, security, and development, emphasizes that violent conflict was undoubtedly one of the biggest drivers of poverty in the developing world[8]. One of the biggest risks for developing countries, it argued, was that of being caught in a ‘conflict trap’ — a vicious circle whereby poverty stokes conflicts, and conflict in turn increases poverty. With the weight of evidence that links regional instability to low economic growth in all nations in the near proximity of the politico-militarily unstable one, and recalling that the core national interest of India is to assure and ensure the material, economic, and societal well-being of the people of India, ensuring stability in her maritime neighborhood is quite clearly a major national imperative.

It is this requirement for regional stability that provides the context of India being perceived — both externally and, increasingly, internally as well — as a net provider of security in the Indian Ocean and beyond. Perhaps the first time that such a sentiment was formally expressed on an international stage was at the 2009 edition of the “Shangri La Dialogue” organized annually in Singapore by the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS), wherein Mr. Robert Gates, who was then Secretary of Defesce of the United States, said, “We look to India to be a partner and net provider of security in the Indian Ocean and beyond….”[9]. This was repeated in the 2010 edition of the “Quadrennial Defense Review” of the USA, which emphasized, “….as its military capabilities grow, India will contribute to Asia as a net provider of security in the Indian Ocean and beyond.”[10] However, the most categoric and unequivocal declaration of this intent occurred at no less than the Prime Ministerial level, when the erstwhile Prime Minister of India, Dr. Manmohan Singh said — “…We live in a difficult neighborhood, which holds the full range of conventional, strategic, and non-traditional challenges ……….. Our defense cooperation has grown and today we have unprecedented access to high technology, capital, and partnerships. We have also sought to assume our responsibility for stability in the Indian Ocean Region. We are well positioned, therefore, to become a net provider of security in our immediate region and beyond…”[11].
India Minister of State Defense Rao Inderjit Singh speaks during the plenary session at the 14th Asia Security Summit, the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) Shangri-La Dialogue 2015 in Singapore on May 30, 2015. The United States on May 30 called for an "immediate and lasting halt" to reclamation works in disputed waters in the South China Sea, saying Beijing's behaviour in the area was "out of step" with international norms. AFP PHOTO / ROSLAN RAHMAN (Photo credit should read ROSLAN RAHMAN/AFP/Getty Images)
India Minister of State Defense Rao Inderjit Singh speaks during the plenary session at the 14th Asia Security Summit, the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) Shangri-La Dialogue 2015 in Singapore on May 30, 2015. ROSLAN RAHMAN/AFP/Getty Images)

The opportunity is clearly recognized [12] and the apex level of political signalling seems sufficient. And yet, one continues to encounter misgivings about whether India has the military capability to play the role of a net security provider for the region. These are largely remnants of a half century of muddled thinking[13] that viewed ‘security’ only in terms of the defense of territory within a state system whose defining characteristic was an incessant competition for military superiority with other nation-states, all lying within a classic state of anarchy without superior or governing authority. Yet, for most people of the world, threats to individual security, such as disease, hunger, inadequate or unsafe water, environmental contamination, crime, etc., remain far more immediate and significant. Thus, as nation-states such as India begin to incorporate the many facets of ‘Human Security,’ they find themselves moving away from the earlier, excessively narrow definition. Consequently, new terms such as ‘Non-Traditional Security’ and ‘Human Security,’ drawn from the 1994 Report of the UNDP[14], have made their way into our contemporary security lexicon and established themselves within our individual and collective security consciousness. Apart from ‘Military Security’ which does, of course, continue to enjoy primacy in a world system defined by sovereign nation-states, the UNDP lists as many as seven components of Human Security: Economic Security, Food Security, Health Security, Environmental Security, Personal Security, Community Security, and, Political Security[15].

Threats arising from a lack of maritime security could be faced by individuals themselves or by one or more of the levels by which individuals organize into societies and into nation-states. They could arise from natural causes or from manmade ones, or from the interplay of one with the other, as in the case of environmental degradation, or, global warming. Indeed, there is a growing realization that climate change has a very significant security dimension that impacts us at the national, regional, and global levels — and, going in the other direction, at subnational and human (individual) ones. As Sir David King, the UK Foreign Secretary’s Special Representative for Climate Change, points out, “A growing body of credible, empirical evidence has emerged over the past decade to show that the climate change that has occurred thus far – involving an increase of 0.8°C in global average temperatures – is already influencing dynamics associated with human, sub-national, national and international security”[16]. Perhaps even more disconcerting is the ease with which the various security impacts of climate change transcend the traditional stove-piping of internal and external security.

For instance, as rising global temperatures create enhanced heat and water stress, agricultural failures at a national level are very likely across entire regions. The probability is high that substantially lowered levels of food security will result in human migration, in turn causing a whole slew of ills ranging from a sharp increase in ‘barbarism’ to demographic shifts. The Syrian unrest — and the consequent rise of the ISIL/ISIS/Daesh[17] as a transnational threat — offers an illustrative case. The West Asian, the North African, and the Mediterranean regions have all being experiencing a drying trend over the last few decades, with a notable decline in winter precipitation — in conformity with the forecasts that had already been made by climate-modelling.[18] As a consequence of the extreme drought suffered by Syria between 2007 and 2011, involving severe and widespread crop-failure and the loss of livestock, there was a mass internal displacement of some two million farmers and herders into urban areas that were already stressed with Iraqi and Palestinian refugees. By 2011, around a million Syrians faced extreme food insecurity and another three million had been driven into extreme poverty[19]. While several factors — such as political insensitivity, a lack of democratic mechanisms for the venting of public frustration and brutal State repression — drove the political unrest and conflict that followed (and contributed to the appeal of the ISIL/ISIS/Daesh), it is difficult to pretend that this widespread impoverishment and large-scale displacement — which was a result of climate change — did not play a major role[20].

Today, threats to human security, such as religious extremism; international terrorism; drug and arms smuggling; demographic shifts — whether caused by migration or by other factors; human trafficking; environmental degradation; energy, food and water shortages; all figure prominently as threats that are increasingly inseparable from military ones. Likewise, the linkages between ‘external’ and ‘internal’ threats arising from the impact of climate change are clearly discernible in the maritime space as well. For instance, the Republic of the Maldives is located a mere 250 nm south-west of India. Its constituent islands and atolls have an average elevation above the current Mean Sea Level of just five feet (the highest elevation is a mere eight feet!). Thus, it is extremely susceptible to a rise in sea levels because of global warming. The 5th Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), predicts that in a ‘high emissions’ scenario, there will be a global rise by 52-98 cm (20.47 to 36.22 inches) by the year 2100[21]. Even with a regime of aggressive reduction in emissions, a rise by 28-61 cm (11 to 24 inches) is predicted and this could be disastrous for Maldives — its population is about 336,000 people, many or all of whom could suddenly become ‘boat people!’ Where will they all go? Probably to India! Clearly, India needs to have multi-dimensional contingency plans in place to deal with the obvious security implications of the unfolding of such a scenario.

Image
A global map indicating areas impacted by a six meter rise in sea levels. Source: NASA.


Such realizations are leading Indian security-planners to embrace concepts such as ‘cooperative’ instead of ‘competitive’ security and ‘comprehensive’ rather than merely ‘military’ security. These are the very concepts that constitute the foundation of India’s ability and willingness to be a net security-provider in the Indian Ocean and beyond. This ability is premised not so much upon India’s arguable capacity by way of material wherewithal, but instead, upon India’s widely acknowledged and impressive capability — organisation, training, operational and maintenance philosophies, procedures, practices, etc. It is important to differentiate between ‘Capacity-building’ and ‘Capability-enhancement.’ Capacity-Building is most often used in the context of material wherewithal — i.e., the provision of hardware. This could include platforms, infrastructure, equipment, or spares, any or all of which might be provided to entities that have a need to develop a certain capacity to undertake one or more maritime (or naval) role.

For example, when the coastal police are given shallow-draft patrol boats with which to carry out patrols in coastal waters, this would constitute capacity-building. ‘Capability Enhancement’ on the other hand, refers to the realization of a potential aptitude or ability. In a maritime context, it implies that the potential recipient already has the capacity (or some proportion of it) to undertake a naval/maritime role, and further inputs will now enhance his existing capability to exploit the material wherewithal so as to derive better results. Capability-enhancement is mostly by way of intangibles and cognitive processes. To continue with the example of the coastal police, the provision of patrol-boats would have built some reasonable capacity. However, once the coastal police imbibe the various methods, procedures and processes that will enable them to logistically-support, maintain, repair, and operationally deploy these boats, their capability in terms of coastal patrolling would have been enhanced. Likewise, a certain navy (or maritime-security force) may well possess operationally viable sea-going Offshore Patrol-Vessels (OPVs). This would be capacity. On the other hand, if the crew aboard the OPV in question did not know how to distinguish between, say, a ‘demersal’ trawler (one designed to catch fish that live close to the seabed) and a ‘pelagic’ trawler (one designed to catch fish that swim close to the surface of the sea), it might be unable to establish ‘suspicious’ behavior as a function of the depth of water in which it is operating. When India provided the Tarmugli (now renamed PS Topaz) and the Tarasa (now renamed PS Constant) to Seychelles, India was engaging in capacity-building. However, the ‘planned preventive maintenance’ needed to sustain these ships in an operational state might well require additional ‘capability-enhancement’ inputs from India by way of maintenance-philosophies, maintenance-schedules, technical-training, etc.

There is considerable evidence that India is, indeed, rising to the occasion. Examples of regional capacity-building are the provision (against generous Lines of Credit) of patrol vessels, short/medium-range maritime patrol aircraft, coastal surveillance radars, shore-based AIS Stations, spares, etc., to several of India’s maritime neighbors. Recipients include Sri Lanka, Maldives, Mauritius, Seychelles, Myanmar, and Vietnam. Regional capability-enhancement by India is extremely vigorous. This incorporates, inter-alia, infrastructure-development such as the setting-up of an afloat-support organisation for ships and patrol craft, the creation of a dockyard in Maldives, airfield development and allied support facilities in Mauritius, and a wide variety of maritime training — in India as well as in-country training by Indian training-teams. It also includes the conduct of extensive hydrographic surveys by specialized Indian ships and aircraft. Indian ships and aircraft make a major effort in regional surface and airborne EEZ-surveillance to counter maritime crime such as illegal immigration, human-trafficking, Illegal, Unreported and Unregulated (IUU) Fishing, and piracy. Beneficiaries once again include vulnerable Indian Ocean nation-states such as Sri Lanka, Maldives, Mauritius, Seychelles, Myanmar, Vietnam, etc.

Image
A visualization of nations included in various common security forums and organizations, demonstrating the broad inclusivity of the Indian Ocean Naval Symposium (IONS).

A critical success in India’s regional endeavors has been the creation of the Indian Ocean Naval Symposium (IONS). IONS is the current century’s first (and to date the only) robust and inclusive regional maritime-security organizational structure within the Indian Ocean. It was launched by New Delhi in 2008 with active participation of very nearly all 37 littoral nations of the Indian Ocean region at the level of their respective Chiefs of Navy/Heads of national maritime forces. It is broadly modeled upon the Western Pacific Naval Symposium (WPNS) and has gained impressive traction over the past eight years. Its inclusiveness is evident from the fact that both India and Pakistan — often associated with being arch rivals and even spoilers, at times — are active and enthusiastic members. For the moment, suffice to say that it represents a unique opportunity to progress common responses to common regional threats.

Indeed, the current and future maritime plans and processes through which India can translate this statement of intent into tangible reality lie at the core of India’s willingness to be a net security-provider.
sudeepj
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by sudeepj »

Peregrine wrote:
Peregrine wrote:I thought these Kawasaki Engines are Licensed from Kockums.
Cheers Image
Singha wrote:No, these are the main diesel engines. the licensed from kockums are the stirling AIP engine which recharges the batteries. 4× Kawasaki Kockums V4-275R Stirling engines

since the diesels are never really used except for transits and snorkels...uber specs or noise levels do not matter much...we can get it from anywhere including russia.
Singha Ji :

Thank you kind sir.
Cheers Image
There is nothing that stops us from upgrading the Kilos with Lithium Ion batteries. 10 times the energy density of the lead acid batteries, and no hydrogen gas as waste. Simply by doing this, we can get an uber-specced ocean going sub.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by fanne »

Only that li ion battery is confirmed causing one plane down and could be the reason for mh 370 disappearence.
Not 100% safe yet
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by uddu »

Wary of China's Indian Ocean activities, U.S., India discuss anti-submarine warfare
http://in.reuters.com/article/india-usa ... NKCN0XT059

Reuters second attempt at propaganda in the recent past. First they came up with joint patrol nonsense which got denied by the MOD. Now this. Expect the morons in the Angrezi Indian Media to pick it up and run it. Seems one of them already did. :lol:

Some of the content in it is really funny to read
"Initially, the United States as the world leader in anti-submarine warfare is likely to be bolstering Indian capabilities in the field. "

Oh really and that's why the Kilo sub was able to track and engage U.S submarine in the latest exercise. Also India is capable of tracking Chinese subs in the Indian ocean and we are doing it for long without any assistance from anyone.

What is actually happening is that U.S is getting really upset at India's capability in the Indian ocean and making noise about it and telling us that Indian ocean is also the responsibility of the U.S and their agent Australia.

From Indian point of view the cooperation is more in the Indo-Pacific especially to ensure freedom of Navigation. :)
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by sohamn »

fanne wrote:Only that li ion battery is confirmed causing one plane down and could be the reason for mh 370 disappearence.
Not 100% safe yet
What are you suggesting? MH370 dissaperance was due to LiOn batteries? This is the most baseless theory I have ever heard. First of all a 777 doesn't have a Lithium Ion battery, secondly - there are thousands of 777's flying with almost absolute safety record.

Someone had asked Elon Musk if his LiOn batteries were hundred percent safe, he replied that is is safer than sitting on ultra flammable tank of Gasoline . Even lead acid batteries are not 100% safe, nor are Hydrogen AIPs.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Cybaru »

I think the chemistry is getting safer and more denser as time passes. Some of the methods to make cheap laptop phone batteries cut too many corners. There are different grades of batteries and processes (BYD vs Sanyo/Panasonic). So suffice to say there will possibly be decent density and safety gains by the time we need to install them in the new subs.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by JTull »

fanne wrote:Only that li ion battery is confirmed causing one plane down and could be the reason for mh 370 disappearence.
Not 100% safe yet
You're confusing 787 issues with 777 which MH370 was.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by sudeepj »

fanne wrote:Only that li ion battery is confirmed causing one plane down and could be the reason for mh 370 disappearence.
Not 100% safe yet
And lead acid batteries are confirmed as the cause of one sub lost with 19 lives.

Its not right to compare the batteries in planes, the need to increase energy density and keep the weight down is very high there. Compared to those 'smoke in the plane' type incidents, there are a few hundred thousand cars driving around with these batteries with a very good safety record. This technology is as mainstream as it can be today.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by fanne »

Common guys the cargo of mh370 was carrying a heavy load of lo ion batteries . It was a similar cargo that brought down a fed ex plain arapia
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by ramana »

Elon Musk is supposed to open his second battery factory in India.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Prem »

ramana wrote:Elon Musk is supposed to open his second battery factory in India.
8) Namo Namo Namaya First step in direction of Energy security and post oil world. The size of his Nevada facility is humongous. Hopefully similar size factory in India.
Last edited by Prem on 03 May 2016 05:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by NRao »

Shreeman
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Shreeman »

Neu car on test drive and already covered in dirt and dust. Not to mention parking in green dirty water. Also, I think I saw a scooter helmet there.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

This what the US would like,India to be a US lackey and part of the anti-China "posse" in the IOR and beyond.ASW warfare is the most heavily guarded secret 6f any navy and never revealed t6 another entity.
If we do so,we will be giving away ASW warfare secrets which are of Russian origin ,as almost all of our sub capability is of Russian origin and consequently will not find favour with the Russians. Have we not forgotten that it was Russian nuclear subs that kept the Enterprise from interfering in the Bangladesh War ,where the US had plans to prevent the fall of Dacca through military intervention and its warnings to the US allowed India to complete the rout of the Pakis in the east? Does it mean that we will also be keeping tabs on Russian subs for Uncle Sam? This is a move even considered fraught with dangerous overtones and must be resisted at all costs. It sucks India whether we admit it or not into the clutches of the US and will mean the sacrificing of our sovereignty and independence.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-india ... SKCN0XS1NS
World | Mon May 2, 2016
Wary of China's Indian Ocean activities, U.S., India discuss anti-submarine warfare
NEW DELHI/HONG KONG | By Sanjeev Miglani and Greg Torode

A U.S. Navy Poseidon P8 maritime surveillance aircraft taxis before taking off at Perth International Airport, March 28, 2014. REUTERS/Jason Reed

India and the United States are in talks to help each other track submarines in the Indian Ocean, military officials say, a move that could further tighten defense ties between New Delhi and Washington as China steps up its undersea activities.

Both the United States and India are growing concerned at the reach and ambition of the Chinese navy, which is taking an increasingly assertive stance in the South China Sea and is challenging India's domination in the Indian Ocean.

New Delhi, shedding its decades-old reluctance to be drawn into America's embrace, agreed last month to open up its military bases to the United States in exchange for access to weapons technology to help it narrow the gap with China.

The two sides also said their navies will hold talks on anti submarine warfare (ASW), an area of sensitive military technology and closely held tactics that only allies share.

"These types of basic engagements will be the building blocks for an enduring Navy-to-Navy relationship that we hope will grow over time into a shared ASW capability," one U.S. official familiar with India-U.S. military cooperation said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Indian naval officials say Chinese submarines have been sighted on an average four times every three months. Some are seen near India's Andamans and Nicobar islands that lie near the Malacca Straits, the entry to the South China Sea through which more than 80 percent of China's fuel supplies pass.

India and the United States, which already conduct joint naval exercises, both fly the new version of the P-8 aircraft, making information sharing easier on highly sensitive submarine tracking activities.

The P-8 is Washington's most advanced submarine hunting weapon, equipped with sensors that can track and identify submarines by sonar and other means.

An Indian naval spokesman declined to comment on the proposed anti-submarine warfare cooperation with the United States.

But an Indian naval source, briefed on the discussions, said the focus of the next set of joint exercises to take place in the northern Philippine Sea in June will be on anti-submarine warfare.

Japan, a close U.S. ally whose submarines are believed to track Chinese submarines in the western Pacific, will also be a participant in the exercises.


INTENSE SURVEILLANCE

Two linked factors are driving the co-operation, say regional military attaches and security experts.

The prospect of active patrols by nuclear-armed Chinese submarines has sparked intense surveillance activity around the China's southern submarine base on Hainan Island, and nearby waters.

India, meanwhile, is preparing to launch its first locally-built submarine armed with nuclear tipped missiles.

So just as U.S. attack submarines are seeking to track the Chinese nuclear armed submarines in the Pacific, the Chinese are expected to send their own attack submarines to the Indian Ocean in greater numbers to scrutinize the Indian patrols.

Collin Koh, a submarine expert at Singapore’s S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies, said increased U.S. submarine and surveillance activity was being seen across the region.

“We will see the Indian Ocean grow in importance, too, particularly around traditional chokeholds, such as the approaches to the Malacca Straits and the Nicobar islands, so an improved U.S. relationship with the major submarine player in the area, India, is very significant,” Koh said.


BOLSTERING INDIAN CAPABILITIES

Initially, the United States as the world leader in anti-submarine warfare is likely to be bolstering Indian capabilities in the field.

But in time, experts say each country could be covering stretches of the Indian Ocean through which two-thirds of the world's trade moves.

David Brewster, an expert on the strategic rivalry in Indian Ocean at the Australian National University, said anti submarine warfare collaboration may eventually include Australia, another U.S. ally which just ordered 12 new submarines.

"We are likely to ultimately see a division of responsibilities in the Indian Ocean between those three countries, and with the potential to also share facilities."

China for its part is seeking to secure its energy and trade transportation links by building ports and other infrastructure for countries such as Sri Lanka that lie along the vital shipping route.

Asked about collaboration between India and the United States on submarine warfare, Hua Chunying, a spokeswoman for China’s Foreign Ministry, said China had noted countries in the region engaging in military cooperation.

"We hope that the relevant cooperation is normal, and that it can be meaningful to the peace and stability of the region," she said.

(Additional reporting by David Brunnstrom in WASHINGTON and Megha Rajagopalan in BEIJING; Editing by Lincoln Feast)
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by kit »

http://idrw.org/the-deceptively-simple- ... barracuda/

The French Navy’s incomingBarracuda-class submarines are nuclear attack subs (SSN). The Shortfin variant on offer for the Australian Navy will see a conversion of the propulsion system to a conventional diesel electric bid. Of course, should an SSN become politically viable for Australian needs in the future, converting the Shortfin Barracuda‘s propulsion system back would be viable. With the diesel-electric Soryu and Type 216, this is option is effectively closed off without significant research and development. According to a report in the Australian Financial Review citing Australian officials with knowledge of the submarine project, “Cabinet ministers and defence officials have already discussed the possibility of switching from diesel engines to nuclear power part-way through the construction contract.” With DCNS and the Australian government heading into contract negotiations over the next months–possibly into 2017–we’ll likely learn more about just what options Australia is looking to keep open.


This logic applies more to India .. does it make sense to have the entire new line of subs nuclear powered SSKs
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Gagan »

suryag wrote:Very little wake
suryag ji
Many ports have a "No wake" policy. Essentially that means that for such and such distance, the boats speed will be kept to a minimum levels so that there is minimum wake coming out.
Large wake will disturb other boats parked in the vicinity, make the berthed boats bob up and down, will be detrimental to safety and hinder port operations.

It looks like because the hull is almost completely submerged in the Scorpene, and the front end tilts towards the water, there is little wake. Seems to me to be a conscious design decision.
INS Arihant has this.
The 877 kilo class, and the Akula are the opposite! The 877s have a big huge bulbous tip (Like a sperm), that then becomes less after a few meters. There is a spine on top that meets the conning tower.
Image

Just my 2 paisa
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Karan M »

Scorpene isn't as small as it appears in the pictures. See size comparison.

http://dcnsgroup.com.au/futuresubmarines/strategic.php
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Karan M »

Interior pics of Chilean subs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERANrORf0Bo
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by kit »

The US would pass that info to the Australians who will use it to track India n subs ...like in the past
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