Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

[vishvak]

Agree with Philip sir here, viewtopic.php?p=2013498#p2013498
Can't make available any except few western subs we have on demand by USA for exercise etc.

[Viv S]

If we do so,we will be giving away ASW warfare secrets which are of Russian origin ,as almost all of our sub capability is of Russian origin and consequently will not find favour with the Russians.

Don't be silly. Most of our ASW tech is and will be of Indian or Western origin. The Kilos, Arihants and future SSNs all are or will be equipped with domestic sonar types. Same goes for the U-209s & Scorpene, as well as the surface fleet (HUMSA series). The towed sonars are of German-origin (with an Indian equivalent in development). The aviation component will be of mostly western origin; P-8I & S-70B plus a C-295-based MPA (especially once the under-performing Il-38SDs are retired).

And in any case, the current (China-focused) agreement is about stepping up joint training and tactics exchange - the US already has plenty of exposure to the IN's Russian platforms through joint exercises.

Have we not forgotten that it was Russian nuclear subs that kept the Enterprise from interfering in the Bangladesh War ,where the US had plans to prevent the fall of Dacca through military intervention and its warnings to the US allowed India to complete the rout of the Pakis in the east?

Depends on whether you subscribe to the delusion that the US & USSR would have fought World War III over Bangladesh (despite staying calm during the Vietnam conflict).

Does it mean that we will also be keeping tabs on Russian subs for Uncle Sam? This is a move even considered fraught with dangerous overtones and must be resisted at all costs.

And what exactly would Russian subs be doing in the IOR?

[tsarkar]

Very little wake

It looks like because the hull is almost completely submerged in the Scorpene, and the front end tilts towards the water, there is little wake. Seems to me to be a conscious design decision.

Silhouette and wake are minimized to avoid detection when surfaced to charge batteries.

[Austin]

^^^

Do they have to actually surface to charge batteries or just use snorkel while remaining submerged.

Scorpene still looks better , try to see a Type 209 when tied to pier the sub is hardly noticeable

[Philip]

It's not communications when underwater.Our SSBNs will require ELF/VLF transmissions. The sub's speed,stealth speed,signatures,quieting,non-traditional sensors for detecting wake,radiation,etc.,-there are heaps of characteristics that differ from sub type to sub type. It is why the IN refused for aeons to allow one of its kilos to exercise with the USN. Why is it that the Arihant is being chaperoned so assiduously? We will be giving away the "holy grail" of sub secrets with this proposal .with the

Both superpowers have some of their assets in every ocean tracking the other's subs. US boomers can operate from any ocean and the IOR is a great space from which both Russia and China can be targeted,esp as DG is available for emergencies. Chinese SSNs may also, once the PLAN is confident that they are quiet enough to avoid detection,operate at will in the IOR attempting to track our SSBNs.The IOR is going to be a pretty crowded ocean UW.

[kit]

It's not communications when underwater.Our SSBNs will require ELF/VLF transmissions. The sub's speed,stealth speed,signatures,quieting,non-traditional sensors for detecting wake,radiation,etc.,-there are heaps of characteristics that differ from sub type to sub type. It is why the IN refused for aeons to allow one of its kilos to exercise with the USN. Why is it that the Arihant is being chaperoned so assiduously? We will be giving away the "holy grail" of sub secrets with this proposal .with the

Both superpowers have some of their assets in every ocean tracking the other's subs. US boomers can operate from any ocean and the IOR is a great space from which both Russia and China can be targeted,esp as DG is available for emergencies. Chinese SSNs may also, once the PLAN is confident that they are quiet enough to avoid detection,operate at will in the IOR attempting to track our SSBNs.The IOR is going to be a pretty crowded ocean UW.

the ELF gear was sourced from a US company

[vonkabra]

The Scorpene doesn't seem to have anechoic tiles. Or are the tiles not noticeable?

[member_28990]

is there any move to integrate indigenous torpedoes in the Kalvari? The possibility of us getting the Black Shark torpedo now looks practically non existent

[Austin]

India's New Submarines Have No Real Weapon - Courtesy Agusta Scam

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indias-n ... eststories

[uddu]

Here is an old article about Indian Torpedoes

http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2 ... Underwater might

T.S. SUBRAMANIAN

The DRDO's triad of laboratories supply the Indian Navy with high-potential weapons systems.


The NSTL has developed both light-water torpedoes (LWTs), named TAL, and heavy-weight torpedoes (HWTs), named Takshak and Varunastra. Takshak has two versions, a submarine-launched variant with wire guidance and a ship-launched one with autonomous guidance. Varunastra is an advanced version of the ship-launched HWT. Under development is a torpedo called Shakti with thermal propulsion, which can generate 500 kilowatt of power and rev up the engine within a second. “Thermal propulsion is a challenging technology,” said Rangarajan. “It is a totally indigenous effort. We have already consolidated several technologies in its development. Only the United States, the United Kingdom and Russia had torpedoes with thermal propulsion when we took up the challenge.”

Takshak would become an autonomous torpedo like its ship-launched variant. It can travel up to a distance of 40 km for taking out submarines and can operate up to a depth of 400 m.

[Austin]

I suspect the Torpedo affair for Scorpene will be a messy one that MOD will have to sort it out ,Unexpected but they will have to make an exception to allow these torpedoes to be bought

[Philip]

Can't understand why no fish have been bought,if Whitehead fish are tainted thanks to AW.Until the issue is sorted out the subs could use German fish which we use on the U-209s or even French torpedoes which they use on their Scorpenes and N-boats.The French have a v.long endurance torpedo which stalks its prey for hours in repeated attacks if the first ones are unsuccessful thanks to decoys.

French heavyweight DCNS’s F21 torpedoes

.An immediate purchase could be made.

Here come the "super-subs".
Australia's $39 billion submarine deal heralds new era of super-subs
By Allison Barrie
Published May 03, 2016
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2016/05/03/ ... -subs.html

A key ally to the United States, Australia, is ramping up their military might with $39 billion in futuristic submarines.

Mega stealth, ultra state of the art and jam-packed with advanced next-gen tech and weaponry…this new fleet of submarines will bring decisive power to any fight.

Related: 'Sea Hunter': World's first unmanned ship stalks subs

French company DCNS is developing the new, cutting-edge Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A submarine for the Royal Australian Navy. The project will be a collaboration between Australia and France- but the United States is also expected to play a vital role.

DCNS will be leveraging the state-of-the-art technology originally created for its big brother - the French Navy’s Barracuda attack submarine.

The powerful French subs are aptly named after the Barracuda fish that tends to incite fear with its large size and scary predatory look. Rapid and powerful, it is a smart, formidable hunter known to deploy clever tactics like working together to drive fish into shallow water and trap them.

Naturally lean and stealthy, barracudas excel at stalking targets hidden from their sight until they strike – just like these mega stealth submarines.

Why is the new sub called Shortfin Barracuda? Shortfins are native to Australia’s Great Barrier Reef.

And while many details remain confidential and shrouded in secrecy, DCNS, France and Australia have revealed some key elements. Here’s what we know…

Missions

Capable of conducting missions for about 80 days straight, a crew of 60 sub- and possibly more than 20 Special Operations Operators - will be able to fit into the approximately 320 foot long sub.

The big brother Barracuda design has a hatch that can hold up to eight Special Operations Operators for insertion and extraction missions. It is likely that the Shortfin will include a similar vital feature.

The Shortfin can deep dive to depths of 1150 feet (400m) and when it dives, it displaces more than 4,000 tons.

Speed and Propulsion

The Shortfin Barracuda has a top speed of more than 20 knots - that’s 23 miles per hour.

To reach these speeds and range, the Shortfin Barracuda relies on modern propulsion. The sub’s pump jet propulsion replaces the old school obsolete propeller tech found on many fleets around the world.

The French version is nuclear powered, however Australia has opted for diesel-electric propulsion. Shortfin’s hydroplanes will be able to retract and this plays a role in helping to reduce both drag and noise; The quieter the sub, the harder it is for bad guys to find it.

Related: Drone ships are now coming to the open ocean thanks to the US Navy

During operations, the new sub can cover 18,000 nautical miles at 10 knots or 11.5 mph and this will be particularly useful for Australia’s patrolling of vast ocean distances.

Stealth

One of the key features is the Shortfin Barracuda’s stealth capability. Shortfin will leverage state-of-the-art tech that dramatically reduces signature.

In a rather landmark decision, France is offering Australia access to their advanced-stealth tech designed for their top-tier subs like the nuclear-powered general-purpose attack submarines and their ballistic missile submarines.

Weapons

Australia’s Defence Force could deploy the Shortfins as intelligence-gathering platforms, but also as a forceful deterrent that stealthily patrols vast distances armed with state of the art weapons systems.

The Shortfin weaponry could include French heavyweight DCNS’s F21 torpedoes and sea mines. In terms of missiles, it could also be armed with French DCNS’s Exocets (Flying Fish) to launch against ships. It could also be armed with DCNS’s A3SMs to defend against air threats from aircraft like helicopters and drones.

But it is also expected that The United States will also play a role in Australia’s new subs, particularly in providing weapons and integrated combat systems.

DCNS asserts that the Shortfin Barracuda will also be equipped with the world’s most powerful sonar ever produced for a conventional submarine.

Related: DARPA's unmanned sub-hunter set to revolutionize naval warfare

The Shortfin Barracuda will replace several Australian Navy Collins subs that will reach retirement age in about a decade. During the selection process, the Shortfin beat out Japan's Soryu-class and German firm TKMS' Type-216.

To ensure the sub stays at the cutting-edge across the board throughout its service life, there are quick-access tech insert hatches in its design. As tech evolves during the sub’s time in service, Australia can use the hatches to add the latest tech and upgrade the sub’s capabilities.

The Collins will need to stay in service for another several years until the Shortfins are ready. The Shortfins are expected to be operational in the early 2030s.

[uddu]

Until Takshak comes into operation there is option of using the torpedoes meant for Shishumar class. The Torpedoes were upgraded.
http://www.spsmai.com/exclusive/?id=53& ... -torpedoes

[tsarkar]

^^^Do they have to actually surface to charge batteries or just use snorkel while remaining submerged.

Snorkeling is like drinking using a plastic straw while surfaced charging is like drinking from a beer mug. We know what is faster. The diesel engines get more air when surfaced.

Scorpene still looks better , try to see a Type 209 when tied to pier the sub is hardly noticeable

Yes, same reason. Infact the stern after the conning tower is submerged even when surfaced.

is there any move to integrate indigenous torpedoes in the Kalvari? The possibility of us getting the Black Shark torpedo now looks practically non existent

No, indigenous torpedoes under development are surface launched. Also, their dimensions are Russian sized rather than Western sized. Speaking generally from memory, Western 533 TT length is roughly 6-7 meters while Russian TT length is roughly 7-8 meters

[tsarkar]

Here is an old article about Indian Torpedoes

http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2 ... Underwater might

T.S. SUBRAMANIAN

The DRDO's triad of laboratories supply the Indian Navy with high-potential weapons systems.


The NSTL has developed both light-water torpedoes (LWTs), named TAL, and heavy-weight torpedoes (HWTs), named Takshak and Varunastra. Takshak has two versions, a submarine-launched variant with wire guidance and a ship-launched one with autonomous guidance. Varunastra is an advanced version of the ship-launched HWT. Under development is a torpedo called Shakti with thermal propulsion, which can generate 500 kilowatt of power and rev up the engine within a second. “Thermal propulsion is a challenging technology,” said Rangarajan. “It is a totally indigenous effort. We have already consolidated several technologies in its development. Only the United States, the United Kingdom and Russia had torpedoes with thermal propulsion when we took up the challenge.”

Takshak would become an autonomous torpedo like its ship-launched variant. It can travel up to a distance of 40 km for taking out submarines and can operate up to a depth of 400 m.

Until Takshak comes into operation there is option of using the torpedoes meant for Shishumar class. The Torpedoes were upgraded.
http://www.spsmai.com/exclusive/?id=53& ... -torpedoes

Development of wire guided torpedoes started in 1982. Takshak was a ship launched torpedo that closed and Varunastra was a follow up project. Shakti too did not meet expectations as per IN.

Full report here http://saiindia.gov.in/sites/default/fi ... pter_6.pdf

The only indigenous torpedoes are TAL and Varunastra, that is ship launched

[Philip]

V.ambitious and praiseworthy,however,how much of these exotic tech can we deliver all alone? Dr.Pillai in the BMos book shows how in some cases,a JV is the best option where there is a willing firang entity for the same.Since these are bleeding edge tech,few nations too will be able to go it alone due to the huge cost factor barring the US,Russia and China. Russia is cash-strapped these days and as we're seeing with the hyper-BMos proposal,a possible partner for some of it. Kudos to the IN for being so far-sighted.It is mentally 25 yrs ahead of the other 2 services.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /83816756/

India Crafts Naval Technology Plan
Vivek Raghuvanshi, Defense News May 3, 2016.
Indian Navy warships are docked in Mumbai. (Photo: Indranil Mukherjee/AFP/Getty Images)

NEW DELHI — The Indian Navy has finalized a plan to acquire 100 cutting-edge technologies in the next 15 years to build its war-fighting capabilities, but how realistic that will be is a million-dollar question.

The 15-year prospective plan unveiled last month calls for acquiring a range of futuristic technologies. These include naval missiles and guns, propulsion and power generation, surveillance and detection systems, torpedoes and directed energy weapons, submarines and anti-submarine warfare systems, naval aviation, network-centric warfare and combat management systems.

"By 2027, we want 200 warships and around 600 aerial assets, hypersonic and loitering missiles, and laser weapons," said Rear Adm. Dinesh Tripathi, the Indian Navy's assistant chief of naval staff for policy and plans.

The navy has 138 warships and submarines and about 230 aerial assets, he said.

"In addition, we need to reduce import content for our sensors and weapons and need a high-range of hypersonic and loitering missiles and laser and directed energy weapons," Tripathi added.

Future naval technologies will be built domestically under the "Make in India" a "Indigenization" categories.

The Make in India policy encourages foreign defense companies to collaborate with Indian companies to set up manufacturing facilities for transfer and absorption of cutting-edge manufacturing technology. This is intended to boost jobs and skill development in the country.

The Indigenization policy is largely meant for domestic [defense] companies, encouraging them to develop products that are currently sourced through imports.

Analysts are divided about how this will work.

"It is true that whereas weapons and sensors and their associated software suites are concerned, there has been sub-optimal indigenization," said Pradeep Chauhan, a retired Indian Navy vice admiral.

Several electronic warfare suites, including Ajanta, Ellora and Porpoise, all of which are fitted on the Navy's latest frontline surface, airborne and subsurface combatants, and which are designed to detect the presence of enemy combatants without disclosing one's position or identity, are an unqualified success, he said.

Likewise, the Indian Navy's family of advanced underwater-sensors, including Advanced Panoramic Sonar Hull mounted (APSOH), Hullmounted Sonar Advanced (HUMSA) and USHUS, are a huge success.

"In the future, high-definition radars, sonars, infra-red seeker and electronic warfare suites will be required," said Birinder Singh Randhawa, retired Indian Navy vice admiral said.

"Immediately, larger-caliber guns, 127mm and anti-missile guns (Vulcan Phalanx type), extended range and guided munitions would also be required. To start with these would need to be built under license," Randhawa said.

Chauhan further argues that the future cannot be assured by resting upon past success, particularly since both government and private industry spent pathetically small amounts of money on research and development.

To build future naval war-fighting capabilities, Chauhan said, the navy will need to acquire disruptive technologies, including electromagnetic rail guns and kinetic energy projectiles; laser-directed weapons, weapon-control systems and communication suites; hypersonic missiles and space planes; blue-green lasers for submarine detection; directed-energy weapons; autonomous advanced drones and unmanned combat vehicles that are truly autonomous and fusion-based power sources.

(BG lasers esp for UW communications with SSBNs)

"However, aviation-based R&D in India has been particularly poorly funded and overseen," Chauhan said. "The only way that new naval aviation assets — such as carrier-borne fixed-wing aircraft, ship-borne multirole rotary-wing aircraft, ship/carrier-launched-and-recovered UAVs and UCAVs can be meaningfully built in India is through the Make in India program."

As regards the network-centric warfare capabilities, Randhawa said the building blocks are in place; data links are produced indigenously, and a naval communication satellite is in place. The capability can be built on and foreign collaboration may be resorted to for initial catch-up.

"The Indian Navy will also require directed energy weapons and laser weapon systems, Chauhan said. "The short-term answer is to exploit the potential of the 'Make in India' policy initiative. The long-term answer is to invest heavily in highly paying R&D."

PS: The F mag had an article on armour,etc.,and the pathetic performance of the OFB is absorbing TOT from T-90s,to ordnance.Poor barrel quality for T-72s,poor quality of ammo,missiles,etc.,etc. aspect of the deal.This has led to the services falling back upon imports from OEMs despite they having handed over on the TOT The lack of accountability in the DPSUs affect the goal of indigenisation as it allows the services to show up the track record of the DPSU in question.

[Gagan]

Black shark torpedos are manufactured by WASS - a company owned by Finmeccanica, which is blacklisted now by GoI.

[Philip]

http://www.idsa.in/idsacomments/indias- ... ngh_050516

IDSA COMMENT
India’s Submarine Modernisation Plans

Abhijit Singh
May 05, 2016

India’s submarine modernisation plans have long been a subject of conjecture and debate in the Indian strategic affairs community. After an August 2013 explosion gutted the INS Sindhurakshak – the Navy’s premier Kilo class submarine – there has been much introspection over the depleting status of its submarine arm. Unfortunately, with the Navy unable to stick to scheduled timelines in the Scorpene programme – its principal submarine project – all talk of revamping the submarine arm has sounded hollow.

Last week, however, brought some cheery news. As Kalvari, India’s first indigenous stealth submarine, commenced sea-trails outside Mumbai Harbour, there was renewed optimism among naval managers. The Kalvari is the first of six Scorpene-class submarines being built under the much-delayed Project-75. Its sail-around was widely seen as an important step forward in meeting the September 2016 target for the submarine’s commissioning.

Despite the absence of its "primary weapon" – ‘Black-Shark’ torpedoes – the Kalvari’s presence in the open seas emphasized India’s efforts at rejuvenating its indigenous submarine production programme. While the project has faced long delays, naval technicians and project-managers have worked tirelessly to meet construction deadlines. Kalvari’s appearance in the open seas last week consequently created new hope for India’s submarine ambitions.

The cheery tidings aren’t limited to the conventional submarine programme. Indian maritime watchers are pleased with the impending induction of the first indigenous nuclear-powered submarine, the Arihant. Having cleared its diving trials and missile tests, the Arihant could soon be commissioned into the fleet as India’s first nuclear ballistic missile platform (SSBN). At 6,000-tons of displacement, the new submarine is a unique technology demonstrator and showcases the best of Indian naval design capability. Even though it draws heavily from Russian technology and has a limited ballistic missile capability (its twelve indigenous K-15 Sagarika missiles have a range of only 700 kms) the Arihant’s commissioning is a milestone for Indian designers who have worked tirelessly for years to refine procedures for the submarine’s construction.

Needless to say, the prospects of the induction this year of two submarines – one conventional, the other nuclear ballistic – has caused a fair bit of curiosity about the Navy’s proposed submarine force structure, particularly in the wake of reports that India has been exploring the possibility of manufacturing nuclear attack (SSNs) submarines. At an international seminar in New Delhi a few days ago, a participant wondered why the Navy was continuing with its dependence on conventional submarines when most advanced navies have shifted to all-nuclear submarine forces.

Indeed, there has been a long-running debate in the Navy about the inherent attributes of an all-nuclear undersea arsenal. Notwithstanding the distinct advantages that nuclear submarines (SSNs) enjoy over their conventional counterparts (SSKs), an all-nuclear Indian submarine force, in the Indian context, is an essentially flawed idea. This is because a conventional submarine offers benefits in littoral waters that more than adequately offset its most glaring constraint – limited operating endurance. A diesel electric submarine’s biggest advantage is that it has a smaller hull that is easier to manoeuvre in shallow waters and harder to detect. The fact that it costs a fraction of the price for a typical nuclear submarine makes a diesel electric an irresistible proposition for a mid-sized navy. Its attractiveness is only enhanced by the ease of operation and the absence of the risk of dangerous nuclear leaks. Simply put, developing maritime states like India cannot afford to overlook the practical utility and effectiveness of an SSK in South Asia’s littoral spaces.

That said, nuclear submarines confer an edge to a fighting force that diesel electrics find difficult to match. The fact that SSNs are bigger, tougher, more heavily armed and longer-ranged than conventional submarines makes them indispensable assets. They can also perform functions that diesel-electric submarines generally cannot – like cross an ocean underwater and at high speed or remain submerged for weeks outside critical littoral spaces. The powerful weapons and sensors they host far outweigh the combat capabilities of conventional submarines.

In 1999, when the Navy first proposed a 30 year building plan for the construction of 24 submarines, it did not intend constructing nuclear attack submarines. The plan then was to construct six submarines each with Western and Eastern-stream technology in the initial phase, before undertaking the development of 12 conventional submarines of an indigenous design. Unfortunately, the plan failed to take off as intended. Many reasons have been attributed for the lack of success in its implementation: the apparent lack of funds, strong divisions within the Navy over the proposal for a mix of conventional and nuclear submarines, and the apparent absence of visionary leadership. Whatever be the reasons for its initial failure, New Delhi is now making up for lost time and opportunity by combining its ongoing construction of conventional submarines with a proposal to build six nuclear attack submarines.

Notably, barring some top-tier navies such as those of the US, UK and France, no other submarine operating force has completely done away with conventional submarines. While the SSK’s simple advantages like ease and quietness of operations have been a factor of interest, the past few years have seen technological advances that have helped diesel electrics overcome their traditional disadvantage of less submerged time before surfacing to charge batteries. Air independent Propulsion technology and fuel cells have made it possible for conventional submarines to remain underwater much longer than earlier.

Not surprisingly then, navies today prefer a combination of nuclear and conventional submarines, with each class filling in a specific role. Increasingly, modern maritime forces deploy advanced non-nuclear submarines like the German Type 214 for sensitive operations. Some European navies, like the Norwegian Navy, have prioritized procurement of non-nuclear submarines to carry out specific tasks, such as protecting the Arctic’s fringes. Expectedly, there have been offers to partner the Indian Navy in developing the design of the new class of nuclear-powered attack submarines. The US has made an expression of interest, though New Delhi is said to have its heart set on the new Baracuda SSN being developed by the French firm DCNS. Meanwhile, reports that New Delhi has approached Moscow for the lease of a second Akula class submarine (after the INS Chakra) has caused speculation of another India-Russia collaborative venture for the construction of SSNs.

India’s choice of partners for its tactical submarines, however, is independent of its efforts to develop a nuclear ballistic missile submarine. A cherished endeavour of the Indian defence scientific community for over two decades, New Delhi has invested a great deal of financial and political capital in making the dream a reality. After the Arihant, three more submarines in the same class are currently under construction at the shipyards in Visakhapatnam. There are plans for a fifth submarine that will incorporate improvements over the lead boat. While India’s “No first use” nuclear policy mandates the establishment of a “triad” of air, sea and land deterrence capabilities, policy makers and strategic experts appear convinced that the sea-based leg is the most survivable component.

Looking ahead, India’s future submarine fleet operations are likely to involve SSKs and SSNs operating in the littoral spaces, in a strategic environment sanitized and protected by SSBNs.(shurely shome mishtake? ) If New Delhi can ensure compliance with present construction deadlines, it could put its submarine modernization plans back on track.

Views expressed are of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of the IDSA or of the Government of India.

How DCNS will provide us with the Barracuda SSN when it has promised Oz-to get the OZ sub mega-deal that it will never give India any advanced sub tech beats me. Commonality between the Arihant class ,Akulas and the planned SSNs would be ideal as crews could easily switch from boat to boat and maintenance and support much easier and faster.Components could be common for all types and help reduce the parts inventory.This is how the Soviets were able to mass produce various types of weaponry and systems using common components across the board.having these components also made by local manufacturers as far as possible will also ensure availability at all times making us immune to sanctions.

PS:Goodbye SHs,you were zimply funtastik!
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 108761.cms
Indian Navy to bid adieu to Sea Harriers on May 11 in Goa

[Avarachan]

Development of wire guided torpedoes started in 1982. Takshak was a ship launched torpedo that closed and Varunastra was a follow up project. Shakti too did not meet expectations as per IN.

Full report here http://saiindia.gov.in/sites/default/fi ... pter_6.pdf

The only indigenous torpedoes are TAL and Varunastra, that is ship launched

Tsarkar, thanks for that informative link. How difficult is it to convert a ship-launched torpedo like Varunastra into a sub-launched version?

[ShauryaT]

On the SSN or as tsarkar would like to call it our multi role hunter killers, I think the debate is fairly set with the BARC preferring a Barracuda type of displacement with an uprated version of Arihant reactor and the Navy preferring more of an Akula sized SSN with a new larger reactor. The CCS and DAC has authorized 6, would it be wise to split the numbers to 3+3 and hedge the risk? I say this as, IMO a new reactor design is inevitable and needed for a larger SSBN, IAC and a faster SSN.

[Singha]

Akula looks big due to double hull and sail. Internally it would be 688 or arihant size usable area and less than virginia

I dont see why we need s big single hull akula ie yasen unless they want a load of 40 uvls brahmos nirbhay in heavy ssgn role.

To me 688 size is best hunter killer size

[Singha]

Is atlas elektronik the maker of sea hake hwt also banned?

[Singha]

Economic times

Germany has made a govt to govt offer for 6 x u214 for p75i

Thyssen krupp has refused to comment on govt matters when contacted

[Singha]

Since we cannit get barracuda tech and if we want western tech the u216 tech base is not a bad bet for ssn whatever they proposed in aus deal..same if p75i is to be large ssk

[Singha]

Its has vls/marcos swimout chamber, crew of 33 only, double hull, siemens fuel cell if we want and lithium ion batteries...80 days endurance vs 30 for a kilo u209 iirc

[RKumar]

Economic times

Germany has made a govt to govt offer for 6 x u214 for p75i

Thyssen krupp has refused to comment on govt matters when contacted

Ask them to first provide next generation Arjun tank engine

[Singha]

this is from May, 2015

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150528/j ... yw8FhVcRBc
Govt-to-govt deal on submarines

Sujan Dutta

New Delhi, May 27: India has sounded out Germany for a direct government-to-government deal to buy six submarines, bypassing a competitive bidding process in what could be New Delhi's costliest military acquisitions programme.

The Indian Navy is now in the middle of finalising the specifications for and choosing a shipyard for its P75i programme to acquire six conventional submarines. The submarines must be capable of firing missiles to attack targets on land and must have air independent propulsion (AIP) that gives them more endurance to stay underwater.

The total cost of the project could top $11 billion (approximately Rs 66,000 crore).

The enquiry to the Germans was made at delegation-level talks last evening, a source in the defence ministry said today. The German defence minister, Ursula Von Der Leyen, is currently visiting India.

The Indian Navy currently operates a fleet of 13 conventional diesel-electric submarines after its INS Sindhurakshak sank in Mumbai in August 2013. Four of the submarines are of German-origin.

"We asked them what they would offer if we went for the submarines in a direct government-to-government deal," said the official.

German conglomerate, Thyssenkrupp, the original builders of the U-Boat of Hitler's navy in World War II, currently owns HDW from which the Indian Navy sourced its Type 209 Shishumar-class submarines (INS Shishumar, Shankush, Shalki and Shankul) between 1986 and 1994 before the deal was hit by allegations of bribery and suspended.

Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems is now contracted to upgrade the four submarines. The upgradation involves equipping them with capability to fire Harpoon missiles.

The Project 75i programme is designed to assist the navy in beefing up its undersurface power after a three-year submarine-building project drafted in the 1990s went askew. The navy wanted 24 submarines by 2024; it now effectively has 13 with two or three constantly under refit.

Last year, the government decided to select an Indian shipyard for P75i for which a committee headed by the navy's chief of design, vice-admiral Ashok Subhedar, has been tasked.

A defence official said the Modi government was closer to a policy in which all purchases of "strategic equipment" would be made through government-to-government deals. He cited the example of the decision to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from France.

An official statement from the ministry said the talks between Manohar Parrikar and the visiting German minister focused on "partnering of Germany in the Make-in-India initiative in the defence sector and supply of state-of-the-art equipmentechnology".

Prime Minister Narendra Modi visited Germany last month. German chancellor Angela Merkel is slated to visit India later in the year. The German defence minister will be visiting the Western Naval Command in Mumbai tomorrow.

[Singha]

now
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 138779.cms

imo if the basic U214 design can provide 90 days endurance and Lion batteries recharged by drdo AIP the only thing going for a large Collins/U216 design would be higher endurance to reach patrol areas, which in our case is not a issue once we setup a pearl harbour in the andamans.

U214 is a lot less risk than a U216 as its already in service for some time.

on other hand its payload in HWT and missiles will certainly be less...no room for internal kampfschwimmer equipment and crew

I still think our own design with some of the U214 equipment would be a better bet. upgrades done piecemeal at our own pace will be less costly than having them own the whole sub and design.

and it makes no sense when we have a ready production line for Scorpene..its better to pindigenize the Scorpene, upsize a little and run with that.

P75I was all about learning how to build a domestic SSK and close that hole, not license making a full design

[Philip]

If true ,great news in my opinion. However,its a one yr old report and after the Oz deal where the U-216 wasn't selected,will the IN still be that eager. There's been one report that the IN likes the Barracuda SSN which may be in the running for the 6 SSNs,but will the French oblige in the aftermath of the Oz win and promise not to give India their m,ost advanced sub tech? I've long advocated ,at least a decade,acquiring the latest German U-boats simply becos we operate them already,U-209s,and that the Scorpenes are already a design which is dated.As we've seen in the Oz sub deal,DCNS is to provide the Oz navy with a far superior sub than the Scorpene.One little point in an analysis ,that retractable diving planes (Kilos,etc)are better than fixed ones (Scorpenes) as they offer a smoother profile.less noise/wake.

The U-boats of various sizes,U-209s,212,214 and now 216 to come,have had a v. successful run worldwide.They're the equiv of the Ru Kilos in longevity of concept,being upgraded from time to time with newer tech,sensors and weaponry.By acquiring U-boats,we will enjoy the best of the West and well as the best of the East (Ru) with the Kilos, Akula/s and input into our N-boat programme. The French decision not to provide India with sub tech what Oz would get for its deal,may have prompted the IN and MOD to pursue the German offer.Moreover,the Scorpene acquisition itself is much delayed and has suffered huge cost overruns.The French AIP system,MESMA,is supposed to be inferior to the German fuel-cell system,but is safer.The new lithium battery tech and using diesel for an AIP plant (CCD),Stirling (being used by China) ,etc. are maturing.The DRDO has also supposedly been developing its own AIP system.

CCD:

. . . . . .Perhaps the simplest of AIP conversions is the closed-cycle diesel (CCD). A CCD engine works like a regular diesel engine, except that it does not need to draw in atmospheric oxygen for the combustion of the diesel fuel. A CCD carries around its own oxygen, stored as liquid oxygen (LOX) in a cryogenic tank. Before entering the diesel generator the stored oxygen is mixed with an unreactive gas like argon in order to control the rate of combustion. The exhaust produced by the combustion of oxygen and diesel fuel.

However,the IN does not need large conventional super-subs like the Shortfin Barracuda,as we are banking on developing/building our own SSNs which will complement the SSBN series of Arihant and follow on variants.

An IN sub fleet of approx 6-8 Scorpenes,6-8 U-boats and 6-8 Kilos ,to be replaced in the future with a new Ru AIP type,will give us approx 18+ conventional boats plus 6-8 SSN/SSGNs and 5-6 SSBNs. This will give us a fleet strength of 30+,the bare minimum to deal with both Pak and China,but a much healthier number and capability than that exists as of now. A quick decision on German U-boats would be most welcome and v.well received.

[tsarkar]

Ship launched torpedoes are fairly simple. They are LOAL and have no wire guidance. However, given the limited power & processing capabilities of their onboard sonar, their effectiveness is relatively lesser.

Sub launched torpedoes use wire guidance that use powerful submarine sonar with higher power, greater processing capabilities ensuring greater detection and tracking ranges. So they can LOBL and swim silent near enemy target activating onboard passive/active sonar much later and at close ranges.

There are other torpedoes for Kalvari - French F21, German DM2A4 that Pakistanis purchased for their Agosta, US Mk48, British Spearfish.

Note how every nation makes its own torpedo. Torpedoes are the ultimate killers.

[NRao]

India's Maritime Stakes in the South Asian Littoral

In recent weeks, two developments involving India have absorbed discussions within maritime circles. First, the Indian Navy positioned a guided missile frigate, the INS Karmuk, off the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, leading to speculation that New Delhi is implementing plans to secure the eastern Indian Ocean. The Straits Times even suggested that India is fortifying the Bay of Bengal to prevent Chinese submarines from visiting the Indian Ocean region (IOR). [1] A few days later, during U.S. defense secretary Ashton Carter’s visit to New Delhi, India and the United States agreed to sign a logistics exchange pact in the coming months. The agreement—a key foundational pact aimed at operationalizing India-U.S. maritime cooperation in the wider Asian commons—led some political commentators to conclude that New Delhi has acquiesced to partnering with Washington in a maritime coalition aimed at countering China. [2]

Speculation surrounding India’s real intentions in the Indian Ocean—though overblown—is not entirely off the mark. India’s efforts to reclaim its maritime space have been evident since January, when New Delhi positioned two P-8I maritime reconnaissance aircraft in the Andaman Islands following reports that a Chinese submarine tender had ventured close to the strategic archipelago. Last month, the Indian Navy deployed another P-8I maritime surveillance aircraft, this time to the Seychelles, for surveillance missions and antipiracy patrols. The trigger for the move, analysts claim, was again growing concern in New Delhi that a Chinese submarine support ship had come too close to the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, suggesting the presence of a People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) submarine in the region. [3]

While there have been clear signs of India’s consolidation of its naval power in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, some analysts see the recent developments as part of a larger strategic design in the wider eastern littoral. It is not happenstance, for instance, that India’s new aircraft carrier, the INS Vikramaditya, visited ports in Colombo, Sri Lanka, and Malè, Maldives, in January; it is rare for an Indian aircraft carrier to visit two South Asian littoral states in the same deployment.

Nor is New Delhi’s expansion of maritime aid to smaller Indian Ocean states in the past twelve months purely coincidental. Recent gestures of naval assistance, including sending a high-end patrol vessel to Mauritius in February 2014 and two advanced light helicopters to Maldives last week, underscore India’s security stakes in its maritime neighborhood. Unsurprisingly, the Indian Navy’s operations in the western Indian Ocean now involve top-end capabilities and high-value strategic platforms assigned diplomatic messaging missions. Some see this pattern of deployments as a clear illustration of New Delhi’s ambition for a larger maritime profile in the IOR.

More importantly, India appears to be fine-tuning its combat machinery in the South Asian littoral. Impelled perhaps by China’s growing naval forays into the Indian Ocean, New Delhi has been strengthening its Andaman and Nicobar Command for a more robust defense of the near littoral. In an amphibious exercise conducted in April, the three arms of the Indian military combined seamlessly to practice defensive missions in the strategically located islands. The Indian Navy, which commissioned an air base on the southern tip of the island chain in 2012, has now proposed the Maritime Infrastructure Perspective Plan to transform smaller naval detachments at the Lakshadweep and the Andaman and Nicobar Islands into larger maritime hubs. Meanwhile, New Delhi has also signed agreements to develop an island in both Mauritius (Agalega) and Seychelles (Assumption). To this end, India is undertaking infrastructure projects that would, among other things, enhance the capabilities of the regional defense forces—hinting at greater strategic synergy in regional maritime endeavors.

Despite actively seeking maritime influence in the regional commons, however, India has desisted from projecting combat power in its near seas. The Indian Navy's operational approach has been, to the contrary, remarkably collaborative, with increasing attempts to improve tactical coordination with regional maritime agencies in the protection of vital sea lanes and crucial trade chokepoints. The navy’s flagship endeavor in South Asia is still the Milan exercise—a cooperative meeting of regional navies in Port Blair every two years with a singular focus on humanitarian operations. Furthermore, India’s naval leadership continues to promote the Indian Ocean Naval Symposium, a collaborative endeavor that addresses the complex operational challenges faced by regional navies, such as floating armories and illegal acts of violence by on-board security personnel at sea.

India’s effort to expand security cooperation with the United States underscores the country’s realistic appreciation of Asia’s evolving maritime architecture. Despite being the most capable maritime force in South Asia, the Indian Navy does not have the capacity to underwrite security in the South Asian littoral—especially with rising transnational crime and environmental degradation. Since 2011, India, Sri Lanka, and Maldives have combined forces in a trilateral security effort led by their respective national security advisers, creating a regional mechanism for tackling nontraditional threats in South Asia. Despite limited success, the initiative has helped showcase India’s security efforts in the regional commons, especially the Indian Navy’s continuing efforts to assist the maritime agencies of Mauritius, Maldives, and Seychelles in building capacity as well as the provision of local surveillance and hydrographical services.

A key component of the Indian Navy's operational doctrine is the diplomatic dimension of regional maritime missions. Intent on improving the tenor of nautical outreach in the neighborhood, the navy’s latest maritime strategy document supports nautical multilateralism. The document describes India’s outreach in the IOR as a series of bridge-building initiatives that seek to combine security with development.

India is also refining the content of its bilateral maritime relationships. The Indian Navy recognizes that it must share responsibility for the region’s littoral spaces with friendly maritime agencies to create the operational capacities needed to shoulder the regional security burden. The importance of sharing operational responsibility goes beyond considerations of preserving the balance of power to also include nontraditional security and developmental initiatives. To this end, Indian policymaking is ever more cognizant of the imperatives of maritime economics in South Asia: “blue economy” projects, sustainable growth, maritime infrastructure, and renewable energy feature prominently in the contemporary discourse on maritime security.

India’s principal predicament in the Indian Ocean, however, is still finding the right balance in its maritime relationship with China. While the PLAN’s growing presence and influence in the IOR is a source of abiding concern for the Indian Navy, New Delhi feels compelled to desist from publicly voicing its anxiety. This is in spite of deepening misgivings about the composition of PLAN antipiracy patrols in the region (now comprising submarines, amphibious ships, and guided missile frigates), as well as Beijing’s maritime Silk Road proposal, which Indian observers allege is a pretext for a robust naval presence in the Indian Ocean.

There is also suspicion in New Delhi that China’s IOR blueprint includes plans for the construction of multiple logistical facilities. Since February, when the Chinese government signed a ten-year agreement with Djibouti to set up a rest and replenishment facility in the northern Obock region, Indian strategic circles have been abuzz with speculation about an operational Chinese naval base in the IOR. Beijing officially described the new facility as “Djibouti’s participation in developing the 21st-century Maritime Silk Road,” [4] but many in New Delhi are convinced that it is meant to provide cover for PLAN operations in the region. [5]

These fears and suspicions explain why New Delhi recently chose to emphasize its stakes in the Indian Ocean. India realizes that it must stress its geopolitical interests in South Asia, while creating the capacity to play a security role in the wider Asian littoral. To achieve these strategic objectives, India must act in concert with friendly states—both in the Indian Ocean and beyond.
India’s widening spectrum of maritime operations and partnerships should be viewed in the context of South Asia’s evolving maritime politics. More frequent deployments in the regional commons and the improving maritime relations with the United States are all signs that New Delhi is willing to act creatively to protect its regional equities. In the near future, the Indian Navy can be expected to combine political outreach and economic engagement with a hard-power presence and traditional maritime operations in a bid to emphasize its strategic leverage in India’s near neighborhood.

Endnotes
[1] “India Deploys Guided Missile Corvette to Andaman, Nicobar Islands,” Straits Times, April 10, 2016, http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/south- ... ar-islands.
[2] Bharat Karnad, “Steering into Troubled Seas with Eyes Wide Open,” April 8, 2016, https://bharatkarnad.com/2016/04/08/ste ... -wide-open.
[3] Jayanta Gupta, “PLAN Ships Continue to Prowl around Andamans,” Times of India, February 26, 2016.
[4] “China Welcomes Djibouti’s Participation in Developing Maritime Silk Road,” China Daily, December 4, 2015, http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2 ... 626753.htm.
[5] Brahma Chellaney, “China Flexes Its Naval Muscle to Project Power Far Beyond Shores,” China-U.S. Focus, February 5, 2016, http://www.chinausfocus.com/foreign-pol ... its-shores.

[Cosmo_R]

...

There are other torpedoes for Kalvari - French F21, German DM2A4 that Pakistanis purchased for their Agosta, US Mk48, British Spearfish.

Note how every nation makes its own torpedo. Torpedoes are the ultimate killers.

What torpedoes do we make? I read something about Shyena but that seems to have gone off the map.

[Karan M]

A light torpedo - the Shyena (its follow on is in development and trials) and the Varunastra HWT which recently cleared trials.

Varunastra is a ship anti-submarine torpedo.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-M50lMudFNGI/U ... pedoes.jpg

[uddu]

Shyena is the TAL already in production. Varunastra as per reports cleared trials and is either in low rate production or not yet started. The mass manufacturing will only start by 2017-2018.

[arun]

There are other torpedoes for Kalvari - French F21, German DM2A4 that Pakistanis purchased for their Agosta, US Mk48, British Spearfish.

If memory serves right, all Scorpene submarines in operation only use WASS Black Shark torpedo’s which besides suggesting that use of the Black Shark with the Scorpene is the best choice available leads me to also wonder if the Atlas Elektronic Sea Hake and/or other torpedo’s are even qualified for use on the Scorpene’s. How wrong is my understanding

[tsarkar]

Blackshark was a joint development between WASS & DCN, where DCN bundled integration with Scorpene FCS.

Pakistanis paid Germans for integrating DM2A4 with Agostas

India paid US for integrating Harpoon with Type 209/1500

So for other torpedoes, we'll need to pay the manufacturer integration costs with Scorpene FCS.

[tsarkar]

Sea Harrier Decommissioning

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 181245.cms

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 118459.cms

Sea Harrier fighter aircraft were deployed during Operation Vijay and embarked on the carrier during 'Operation Parakram'.

The original thrust vectoring fighter ages before Su-30 or F-22 with Vector in Forward Flight (VIFF)

They surprised many MiG-21, MiG-29 & Mirage 2000s in exercises.

[Austin]

I wonder we could have lic built that aircraft in India for VTOL/CAS role , An AESA Radar , IRST and modern electronics would still make this bird very effective for next 25-30 years. Subsonic Speed is not a challange for most combat regime

[Philip]

Latest news.Germany will be very keen esp. after losing the Oz sub deal to DCNS.

CVosy high though.$1.5B foe each! The Akula lease for 10 yrs came in at much less.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/15999/ ... zAfT8tJljo
Germany Offers India Government-To-Government Deal for Submarine Purchase
Our Bureau
, May 7, 2016

German Papanikolis-class Type-214 submarine
Germany is offering a government-to-government deal for its new generation conventional submarines with underwater endurance to India.

The HDW 214 submarines are being offered as a special case for Indian Navy’s P75i submarine project which involves manufacturing six of them at an estimated cost of over $9 billion, Economic Times reported Friday.

The formal proposal is being shared with the defense ministry in which the German government will give assurances of fair price, technology and quality, ET reported quoting unnamed sources as saying.

India is eyeing Air Independent Propulsions (AIP) enabling the submarines to remain underwater for longer period of time. Other than Germany’s Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), Russian Rosoboronexport and French DCNS submarine companies are also competing for the P75i project.

"The offer has certain assurances that the product will meet Indian requirements," an official involved in the process told ET. Russia, which is developing its own AIP system, has already advised India to conclude the P 75I project under a government deal as it has too many complexities of technology transfer.

TKMS that manufactures the submarine said it "is not in a position to comment on talks between the governments of the two nations", but said it was interested in offering its 214 class boats with "robust transfer of technology, training and meeting offset obligations". "We define this as a 'no-holds barred' transfer of technology in line with Modi government's 'Make in India' push," the company spokesperson told ET.

More news.
http://www.catchnews.com/india-news/ada ... 44730.html

Pinaki Bhattacharya @pinaki63 | 7 May 2016,
ADAG and L&T struggling for funds, may lose P75I submarine project

The 'Make in India' initiative is supposed to a way for the government to boost the manufacturing sector by giving incentives to industrialists. However, in the defence sector, it seems to be doing just the opposite.

In early 2015, four shipyards were identified by a team comprising bureaucrats and navy officials capable of building submarines under the Project 75 India. Of these, two were private shipyards, which now say they may have problems building them owing to a lack of cash required to invest in submarine-building infrastructure.

Both these shipyards now run the risk of attracting the negative attention of the Ministry of Defence (MoD), and may lose the opportunity.

Also read: The lowdown on Project 75: India's scorpene submarines, four years behind schedule
Surprising lack of funds

This may sound odd, considering that one of the shipyards, Pipavav, is now owned by the Anil Dhirubhai Ambani Group, while the other is helmed by Larsen & Toubro, a company with solid credentials. However, neither have the necessary Rs 2,000-3,000 crore ready funds to build the necessary infrastructure.

Sources say both the owners are privately saying they'll put in the cash when they finally get contracts to build one each of the conventional submarines.

In case of ADAG, sources say it is "overextended on institutional funding" and may have trouble in raising more debt.

What is the P75I programme?
A follow-on series of the Scorpene submarines under construction, the P75I was conceived according to the 30-year submarine plan that would take the fleet to 24 conventional submarines by 2028.

Though the plan was ready by 1994, it got the government's approval in 1998.

The six submarines are meant to have all state-of-the-art technology, like brand new anti-ship/land attack missiles that are both vertical and tube-launched.

They are also going to have Air Independent Propulsion (AIP), which is the latest technology available for stealth operations. This means they will stay underwater for almost as long as nuclear submarines.

Plus, they create less 'noise'. In case of submarines, it is 'cavitation' sounds; besides even sounds made inside the vessel. They will also be built on modular technology.

Retired commodore Anil Jai Singh, vice-president of the Indian Maritime Foundation and a former Pipavav official said: "I believe that there will be strong 'Make in India' condition employed. The DRDO is almost ready to launch its AIP solutions. There are indications it will be putting it out in September this year."

Part of the missile arsenal will also be of Indian origin. "Brahmos Aerospace is working on a long-range land attack missile. The main anti-ship missile could be Exocet or Scalp (a brand new cruise missile, also of French origin)," Cde Singh said.

Also read: Agusta fallout: New made-in-India submarines have no weapons

Inordinate delays
The P75I is delayed in its very inception. The current problem is with the 'strategic partner', who needs to be identified.

Also read: No shot in the arm: why the new Defence Procurement Policy doesn't cut it

While the Strategic Partnership Programme is still under preparation, it will still have to be approved by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) and the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS).

The old Request for Information was circulated with four possible strategic partners - DCNS, Navantia, HDW and the Russians.

However, the process of issuing a Request for Proposal is still hanging fire.

Edited by Shreyas Sharma

[Singha]

the only way out is Govt gives them a loan for the said amount to be paid back in phases later or seed funding grant. in exchange it would gain a temporary stake which can sell later on market. or compensate the winning group with tax breaks or land/resources/contracts in other areas.