Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

[Singha]

My one and only long haul unreserved trip on ir was in 1994 final year btech in nitw. A students agitation and fight between outside students vs local sc led to college clisure for a month. At short notice had to return home so unreserved to Howrah on east coast express was first leg.
At same rime, surat plague exodus was on. Hordes of workers were returning to odisha. We were young and strong, so combined ne + wb + odisha team fought our way in. That whole day until next morning we were standing in the corridor...next day got a scrap of seat..next evening at khurda road odisha most workers cleared put and coach became nearly empty to howrah...next day we took chair car reserved tkt from sealdah to ghy kanchenjunga exp again 24 hrs..no place to sleep at night just chair car..some slept on floor in newspapers..no food either..platform food became our type only after howrah from.bolpur onward like roti, so bzi, boiled egg...
Befire that a.p and odisha used to have only hard dried fried snacks like maddur vada which i hate

Kapil has a point. The bottom 25% of our country travel in that mode as they cannot even afford reserved sleeper tkt even if available. They also cannot plan months ahead beng in.odd jobs..
Those coaches need redesign, more comfort, more toilet s, forced air cooling, nothing has changed in unreserved coaches from my era

But i agree hsr is a spv and ir funfs are already going into capacity fixing everywhere

[SRoy]

That reminds me of two incidents (among many others).

Returning to Delhi from 24 SSB, by KK Express. We were a group of 12. Same story, sleeping on floor. Little to eat. The group got smaller as we neared Delhi. To make it worse we got in a fight with RPF jawans at Itarsi. Escaped narrowly.

Second one was, once on a whim decided to make a quick weekend dash to Allahabad (dad was posted there). I think it was Chhat Puja time and all trains were packed like sardine cans. I used to have the dependent ID card then, so though that at least the military coach will be manageable. Assumption is the mother of fcukups as they saw ... turned out to be a all night standing journey.

[Singha]

Ppl in these coaches are willing to fight rpf ia police just about anyone for their turf. Women and anyone weak will get a rude shove. Its hell on earth

Most exp trains have only 2-3 such coaches i think...need to take my kids, get platform tkts and make them tour a empty train...the brats have gotten way too comfortable with indigo.... Feba contact with such heavy arty is a morale shattering exp..some pull through, some dont...takes moral fibre it does

[Suraj]

Can somebody explain me that in these times when land has become a luxury in India and land acquisition has become a nightmare, that GOI wants to build a dedicated HSR line? If we can Augment the air travel, it will still be quicker and almost the same cost. Beats me completely, the obsession of people with HSR. Before trying to sucker punch me for my statement, please feel free to have a logical discussion.

Since you claim your argument is logical, do you mind providing the capacity per plane, cost per plane and operational costs of running planes between Mumbai and Ahmedabad to generate exactly the same passenger capacity as HSR, plus the same end to end travel time ? Since you make the argument, it's for you to prove it is in fact the better one.

[SRoy]

More cost effective option is to enforce law and order and traffic safety on highways.
Any journey that takes 6 hours can be done on road within 4 hours. Subtract further 1.5 hour of reaching stations and waiting there.

Think multi-modal.

There are other ways as well to reduce congestion on trains.

Off topic, India is a special case. The whole working class from East and NE migrating with seasonal to and fro travels to West and South. This puts a tremendous load on all affordable modes of transport.

[Suraj]

There's also a very long discussion on HSR starting from the first page of this thread. I suggest you read it. For example, this post shows the effect of the Seoul-Busan KTX HSR on conventional rail, road and air traffic. Please read essentially all of the first two pages of conversation. Several people have posted very useful arguments either way, and there's really nothing in the Indian Express article you quote, that negates the logic in favor of HSR.

Also, if you're looking for a slam dunk case one way or the other, I think that's impossible to argue. You can choose to take one position because you think the combination of factors you choose is more important. But your original post IMHO is largely polemic because it implies the HSR backers are idiots who don't know what they're doing when there's an obviously better choice. In reality the choice is not anywhere near clear cut or obvious, and is very subjective.

For example, a transportation system must have a long term plan, e.g. 50-75 years out. Air travel 50 years out ? What's the cost of oil going to be then ? Like I said, there's no clear cut argument in favor of air travel here. Sure it has lower incremental costs, but arguably higher long term costs and uncertainty.

[arshyam]

^^ @nukavarapu, and please take into account the daily handling capacity of each airport hub and contrast it to the handling capacity of the railway terminal in that city (both current and future projections). Then, some points on where the demand-supply bottlenecks are, and how they can be relieved. Lastly, an analysis based on economics will also set up a good discussion, provided you are able to make one (I am talking about fares and affordability). Will look forward to it.

[arshyam]

Kapil has a point. The bottom 25% of our country travel in that mode as they cannot even afford reserved sleeper tkt even if available. They also cannot plan months ahead beng in.odd jobs..
Those coaches need redesign, more comfort, more toilet s, forced air cooling, nothing has changed in unreserved coaches from my era

Agreed. There is a pressing need to operate Jan Sadharan type trains on the trunk lines that are fully unreserved with 16-20 coaches. Provide a more dignified way to travel. IR and GoI can work out a subsidisation plan dedicated to these specific trains, and allow a more realistic pricing mechanism on other reserved trains. This will allow IR to meet the social obligations, provide a good transportation option for migrant labour, and keep them affordable, while keeping IR's balance sheets healthy to invest more on infra. The problem, as others have pointed out, is line capacity. We simply need more tracks, double and quad sections! For starters, the diamond quad needs to be quad-tracked on priority.

Another thing GoI should look into (it goes against federalism, but what the heck) is to encourage a more robust bus transport networks in states. I notice that people tend to take long distance trains for 2-4 hour journeys which can be easily done by buses. But due to lack of options, they are forced to take the train and add to overcrowding. A good example is the sleeper class on the Delhi bound GT express beyond Balharshah - you can see people boarding and getting off frequently from a train that is not meant for short distance traffic. Take a leaf from TN's book, and allow private bus transport (not just A/C Volvos) to compete with each other - railway overcrowding will become more manageable. Those who have travelled by bus in the TN hinterlands will understand what I am talking about.

[SRoy]

Another thing GoI should look into (it goes against federalism, but what the heck) is to encourage a more robust bus transport networks in states. I notice that people tend to take long distance trains for 2-4 hour journeys which can be easily done by buses. But due to lack of options, they are forced to take the train and add to overcrowding. A good example is the sleeper class on the Delhi bound GT express beyond Balharshah - you can see people boarding and getting off frequently from a train that is not meant for short distance traffic. Take a leaf from TN's book, and allow private bus transport (not just A/C Volvos) to compete with each other - railway overcrowding will become more manageable. Those who have travelled by bus in the TN hinterlands will understand what I am talking about.

I pointed out this problem. Highways need to be safe from traffic safety and law and order point of view.
If these are sorted out then even private buses would start plying. Of course, state roadway buses need to ramp up in numbers.

[Suraj]

First I don't see any argument here. I just wanted to have a healthy discussion which can help me understand better about the transportation needs of our country.

A discussion is not conducted by stating a conclusion that needs to be disproved by others. I have to ask again - have you read the discussion in pages 1-2 of this thread, and the linked material therein ? There's actually no 'conclusion' there - there's two sets of people who have discussed several aspects supporting and opposing the HSR.

That discussion is the most recent substantial conversation on the topic here, and I pointed you to it so that you can carry on from there, as opposed to rehash the whole matter a dozen pages hence. Whether or not you posted on this thread long ago isn't really important, but carrying on a previous substantial discussion is, instead of restating the whole thing from scratch.

What you choose to do is your prerogative. I'm simply going to step in and prevent repetitive arguments on a topic that's already been covered recently, particularly when involves no analysis of data. You're more than welcome to learn, but it's not at all unreasonable to accept a suggestion that you also read what's been discussed on topic most recently, because if you want to discuss the matter at length, you owe it to yourself to be well informed as a participant.

[arshyam]

^^ @nukavarapu, and please take into account the daily handling capacity of each airport hub and contrast it to the handling capacity of the railway terminal in that city (both current and future projections). Then, some points on where the demand-supply bottlenecks are, and how they can be relieved. Lastly, an analysis based on economics will also set up a good discussion, provided you are able to make one (I am talking about fares and affordability). Will look forward to it.

Well is it not facinating that you by default assumed I am not able to make an analysis based on economics. You by default you assumed a higher intellectual ground than me. Any specific reason you think like that, or you are always on such a high wheel that you look down onto others?

No illusions of sitting on a wheel saar. A wheel does go around, so one sitting 'on' it will eventually come down . You first assumed 'high ground' by assuming people will sucker punch you, and your thoughts being logical (and others' not so), so I simply asked you to enumerate those 'logical' thoughts first.

Beats me completely, the obsession of people with HSR. Before trying to sucker punch me for my statement, please feel free to have a logical discussion.

[Suraj]

Suraj this is my last post regarding your directives. I don't think we should waste more time on this when we have a better topic in hand to be discussed. In the first 2 pages of this thread, did you guys ever discuss realigning the existing infrastructure to semi-HSR first (<= 200kmph) and then eventually developing to full fledged HSR. I didnt see any of that stuff in the first 2 pages. Please do point me out and I will be happy to stand corrected.

Let's assume it hasn't be discussed. Why don't you provide the data to justify why this makes sense to the Japanese. We aren't spending the money. They are. Many people made the mistake of not even understanding the financial structure of the plan. The project is neither funded out or, nor run out of the central exchequer's funds.

Also, can you provide data to show when Japan nearly went bankrupt in the mid 1980s, something you assert is very well documented:

Even the case of Japanese HSR, its well documented how it almost bankrupted the country.

[Kashi]

Now my second argument is, if the government is hell bent on creating a brand new HSR trunk infrastructure from Mumbai to Ahmedabad, and do $15 Billions and charging INR 2000 ticket one way, then whats wrong with augmenting Air Travel. It costs pretty much the same and will not need a $15 billion investment.

That's a very simplistic way of looking at it. Mumbai airport is fast approaching saturation and augmenting air travel on that sector will necessitate a new Navi Mumbai airport (and probably expansion of the Ahmedabad airport). Which means land acquisition in one of the costliest real estate region of India, building up a new airport, getting it operational and running it on day to day basis, not to mention augmenting transport services from the new airport to the city and the old airport. One can only hazard a guess as to how much will this cost. Quite a few billion $ would be my guess.

Now one may argue that Navi Mumbai airport will not be exclusive to Ahmedabad-Mumbai sector but serve to relieve the Mumbai airport of excess burden in all sectors. However, it will require money, tax payer money funded largely by the GoI/GoM, who will have to set up surrounding infrastructure. Unlike HSR, this will not connect the "city centres". Plus, there's a matter of arranging suitable private investment if someone is willing.

Moreover, as it has been pointed out, HSR is being funded ENTIRELY by Japan. GoI/GoM will not spend a naya paisa on this project from the tax payers money (Of course there will be Govt. expenditures, but those will be largely accessory to the overall project). The loans have a 15 year moratorium and a 50 year repayment period at 0.1% interest rate. If the HSR were to be funded from IR budget, it would be very reasonable to argue that IR's priority must be on overhauling the existing rail infrastructure. HSR investment cannot be diverted to IR because the investors i.e. the Japanese may not agree (they are funding the DFC though), so we cannot say that HSR is being built at the cost of IR because that's simply not true.

People speak of introducing new trains. Isn't that's what most railway ministers have done so far, without bothering to upgrade the infrastructure to support these additions? The results are there for all to see. Presently, IR is trying to make amends but this takes time. Introducing new trains is easy- just clink a few rakes together, slap a new number and a board proclaiming falan falan express and let the new trains jostle with others in a crumbling overcrowded rail network.

IR under Prabhu is trying to fix the dilapidated rail infrastructure entailing an investment of over $100 billion over the next few years. Who's going to fund this? Certainly not the passengers who wish for a roomier general compartment with plush seats.

Do you think the kind of ridership we are looking at, can those many people pay the Air Travel fares for a train?

Doesn't this contradict your previous suggestion to augment air travel between Ahmedabad and Mumbai?

[Kakkaji]

Agreed. There is a pressing need to operate Jan Sadharan type trains on the trunk lines that are fully unreserved with 16-20 coaches. Provide a more dignified way to travel. IR and GoI can work out a subsidisation plan dedicated to these specific trains, and allow a more realistic pricing mechanism on other reserved trains. This will allow IR to meet the social obligations, provide a good transportation option for migrant labour, and keep them affordable, while keeping IR's balance sheets healthy to invest more on infra.

The Janata Express of yore, then the Garib Raths, Shramjeevi Express etc were all started to fulfill this need. All these trains have not kept up with the population growth.

One big problem is that the passenger fares are too low. The losses on passenger traffic are subsidised by the revenue on the freight traffic by the railways. As a result, the railways have no funds, or commercial reason, to increase passenger capacity.

I think the losses borne by the railways on passenger traffic should be reimbursed by the Government out of general budget. (It is social sector spending after all). Only then can the railways expand capacity in a sustainable manner.

[Suraj]

nukavarapu: You're being a troll. You've been asked to provide data by multiple people, but all you do is argue more. Page 2 of this thread already describes the funding structure quite well. All you have to say is:

I don't care about Japanese, I care about India. Whether it makes sense to them or not is not my problem.

This is just bizarre. They and IR conducted a feasibility study. JICA signed off on the study and are funding the project. You are demanding changes. *You* need to explain why your argument makes sense to *them*. You don't get to simply dismiss them and walk away like this considering you brought up the topic.

You mean that Japanese are giving us money for free and we don't need to pay that money back? Well this is news, I did not know that the Japanese liked us so much.

This kind of response may pass on other fora or even in the middle of emotional arguments in the politics thread, but not here. This thread has managed to increase the level of detail of discussion far beyond what you may be last familiar with discussing.

Edit: Kashi provides a quick recap of what's already been described in Page 2.

Let me ask you,

Sorry, you don't get a pass to troll and then ask more questions when you could not answer a specific question about what you posted earlier. You specifically said 'XYZ almost went bankrupt', and that it's well documented. Provide the documentation, please. There should be records of Japanese debt yields spiking as they come close to defaulting, if you're indeed right. Also, how did Japan's bankrupt economy grow from '$69 billion in 1963' to $2000 billion in 1985 (India achieved the $2 trillion mark another 30 years later) ?

[Sachin]

IMO cleanliness, people sleeping on platforms, waiting rooms or even the speed of the trains should be least of the govt's concern when millions and millions of passengers are travelling like cattle in unreserved coaches (sometimes even in reserved coaches as well) on daily basis.

You have brought out a fundamental problem with IR. What should be IR's priority? It can go back to the true blue socialist organisation; with focus on providing every thing at cheap rates (and off course with the poorest quality). Or it can understand that there does exist a huge population who is willing to pay more, but expects some good quality service and work on getting these groups to use the trains. Then there is a mix & match of both these; which I feel is what IR is going to do.

Unreserved coaches ideally should be used for short distance travel. But if millions of millions of passengers are travelling like cattle, it means that the problem may not be in entirely on IR's domain at all. The scenario you mentioned is now a common sight in any train from KL proceeding towards North Eastern India. But if you notice the original problem is not IR's carrying capacity, but the fact that for a large population in North Eastern states they have to come to the south to make a living.

Even in the sleeper coaches, tickets go unavailable the very first day in season. Why don't we just use our bullet train's budget in increasing the number of trains so that at least we give a chance to the citizens to travel like humans?

The budget part, I feel is the simplest thing to fix. But increasing the number of trains is never going to be easy. Because that would also require more tracks and better signalling system. I remember once reading that in Kerala (from PGT to TVC) a train crosses a station every 10-15 minutes. And consider the case of level crosses. The gates have to be opened and closed once every 15 minutes (or even to allow 2-3 trains to pass). To increase capacity all these needs to be addressed. Road Over bridges have to be built, signals have to be made automatic and then more lines have to be built. Many of the double line tracks are now satuarated.

Ppl in these coaches are willing to fight rpf ia police just about anyone for their turf. Women and anyone weak will get a rude shove. Its hell on earth

Leave alone unreserved coaches, this is a problem in reserved coaches as well. Today I find that in a regular Sleeper Coach even with a valid reservation, no comfortable travel is guaranteed. Wait listed ticket holders, season ticket holders all just barge in and as the reserved passengers to "adjust maadi". For a slightly better travel it is now better to book in AC 3rd Class. All these kind of things are also now forcing many small families to rely on their own vehicles or use the long distance bus services. With Volvos, Mercedez & Scania buses, and good tolled highways travelling by road with a family is not a big problem these days. IR is also losing some revenue (in the short distance travel) on this count.

[Suraj]

Very nice post, Sachin.

[Singha]

near Howrah there is the menace of office goers who could not get seats on the dedicated commuter trains but barge into the reserved coaches of long haul trains going into or out of the city. they are a law unto themselves because the suburban stations are their home range and everyone knows everyone so gathering a mob and thrashing someone who resists their movements is not a issue. only IA /paramil jawans if travelling in a group are able to tell them to buzz off.

[nawabs]

near Howrah there is the menace of office goers who could not get seats on the dedicated commuter trains but barge into the reserved coaches of long haul trains going into or out of the city. they are a law unto themselves because the suburban stations are their home range and everyone knows everyone so gathering a mob and thrashing someone who resists their movements is not a issue. only IA /paramil jawans if travelling in a group are able to tell them to buzz off.

But this problem is further compounded by the issue of priority that is given to the local trains. For example, in Kanpur- Delhi route since 6 in the morning till afternoon, one can be pretty sure that locals will end up standing at stations for more than half an hour to clear the passage if it is yet to reach aligarh and is caught in the web of rajdhanis-sfs.

[prahaar]

A major flaw of proposing air travel as substitute for HSR, if there is high capacity air bridge between Ahmedabad and Mumbai, what will the cities in the intermediate do? In the span of 500 KM, there are at least two major cities (Vadodara 4 million, Surat 6 million) and few more cities (Anand 2 million, Bharuch 1.5 million, Valsad 2 million, Navsari 1.5 million). Individual HSR service could be designed to have different stops to maintain minimum distances. All these are already 5 year old numbers from 2011, by 2025 these numbers would be significantly higher. Even though there are 4 airports (Ahmedabad, Vadodara, Surat, Mumbai) in this short distance, it will not scale in terms of pricing as well as convenience to commute with air travel.

[Kashi]

near Howrah there is the menace of office goers who could not get seats on the dedicated commuter trains but barge into the reserved coaches of long haul trains going into or out of the city. they are a law unto themselves because the suburban stations are their home range and everyone knows everyone so gathering a mob and thrashing someone who resists their movements is not a issue. only IA /paramil jawans if travelling in a group are able to tell them to buzz off.

Not just Howrah. This is quite symptomatic of many "daily commuters" travelling from DLI/NDLS/Nizamuddin to NCR and beyond.

[manjgu]

if i were Modi / Suresh prabhu..i would run subsidised fully a/c full unreserved train..with wooden sleepers but fully air con ..imagine the goodwill it will create !!! given the skewed economic development and huge population, overcrowded trains on certain routes is a reality. I think Railways priority should be comfortable travel for all...as much as possible. we all worry abt 2nd sleeper and 3 ac comfort but people travelling in unreserved also deserve some respect and comfort. The time for HSR and other fancy stuff has not come IMHO.. HSR is like 'taat ke kambal mein makhmal ka paiband' ..sorry for the shudh hindi.. 'HSR is like velvet patch in a jute blanket'

[Prasad]

Happens all over. And not just around NCR or major cities. Happens on the madras bombay route too in the AP section.

[Rahul M]

that's actually a very good idea manjgu ji !

I wonder how much it would cost more to
a) convert unreserved rakes to AC
b) electricity bill for running the AC.

not all that much I would think. perhaps same can be done for sleeper coaches as well.

[Sachin]

they are a law unto themselves because the suburban stations are their home range and everyone knows everyone so gathering a mob and thrashing someone who resists their movements is not a issue

But this problem is further compounded by the issue of priority that is given to the local trains.

Not just Howrah. This is quite symptomatic of many "daily commuters" travelling from DLI/NDLS/Nizamuddin to NCR and beyond.

I feel this is one case where Railways and its own Railway Protection Force has completely failed in its duty. I am yet to figure out what safety does RPF as a Police Force give to a common traveller. I know that RPF's original mandate was to protect the "railway properties". And using that as an excuse another force - the GRP; was brought into picture. GRP gets its men from the respective state police. So between these two police forces, nothing gets done. Over the years I have noted that travelling even with reservation is not going to bring any tangible benefits. Luckily for me my train travels are in areas, which can also be covered using own vehicle or buses. In suburbs of Bangalore (KJM to be precise), bonafide passengers in a Kerala bound train could not enter because the season ticket holders ganged up and did not allow them inside.

A major flaw of proposing air travel as substitute for HSR, if there is high capacity air bridge between Ahmedabad and Mumbai, what will the cities in the intermediate do?

IR I feel would feel the heat from both sides in this case. One - many long distance train travellers may opt for Air travel. Better fares are available if booked well in advance, plus there is a big factor of the time saved. Two - many short/over night travellers may ditch the trains with better buses out there on the road and the highways getting better and better. So given these constraints we now need to see who would actually prefer trains and why. In over night sectors like Bangalore->Kerala towns lots of people now go buy buses. For people living in suburbs the buses allow them multiple pick up options, and the whole hassle of booking a cab to goto the Railway station is avoided.

I think Railways priority should be comfortable travel for all...as much as possible. we all worry abt 2nd sleeper and 3 ac comfort but people travelling in unreserved also deserve some respect and comfort

I am bit confused on the original intention of having the un-reserved coaches to express/mail trains. Was it meant for end-to-end travel, or was it meant for passengers who would use it for short distance travel? Because if it was for short distance travelling then many of the discomforts would not be there. The passengers in these coaches would just keep on changing. But what we see on the ground is that large number of un-reserved passengers doing the end-to-end travel. On the "respect & comfort" factor, I don't think IR is showing these passengers any less respect. If unreserved passengers also get all the benefits and comforts for a "reserved ticket" holder, then why have the concept of reservation at all.

a) convert unreserved rakes to AC
b) electricity bill for running the AC.

a) IR would have to put either a 3 AC Sleeper car, or a A/C chair car instead of the current un-reserved coach. One thing we must remember is that this may also reduce the overall seating capacity in the un-reserved coach. Crowding etc. may not be possible, because the air-conditioned part needs to be closed. Or else they should design a new coach which is like one small air conditioned hall, with benches etc. placed liberally (instead of chairs or berths).
b) Even the existing air conditioned coaches have the capacity to generate enough electric power to run the A/C. But I feel what would s-crew the railways is the cost v/s returns. Passenger tickets are heavily subsidised. Unreserved passenger tickets cost even more cheaper. Looks like it is only in air conditioned ticket fares that railway makes some semblance of a good deal. Imagine if a facility which is offered at a premium is now given to passengers who are paying the lowest possible fare (on an already subsidised fare scheme)?

[kapilrdave]

Unreserved coaches ideally should be used for short distance travel. But if millions of millions of passengers are travelling like cattle, it means that the problem may not be in entirely on IR's domain at all. The scenario you mentioned is now a common sight in any train from KL proceeding towards North Eastern India. But if you notice the original problem is not IR's carrying capacity, but the fact that for a large population in North Eastern states they have to come to the south to make a living.

That's true. But that doesn't mean that IR should also leave them to misery? It's perfectly understandable that IR is not able to keep up with the pop growth or the economic decline of some states. My whole point was about priority and focus. I know that it will take at least 10 years to reasonably address the issue. But the push must come ASAP from the top.

I don't support dirt cheap fares. They need to increase the fares for unreserved coaches by at least 30-40%. More like 50%. In fact, too low rates are equally responsible for over crowd in unreserved coaches. There is one more thing to it, when general coaches start running exorbitantly over capacity, many people even prefer to travel by those coaches. They take the advantage of the over crowd and simply don't buy tickets. They know that no TC will be able to put his foot in these coaches. Thus these free riders further worsen the already worst situation. Often, it's not like they can't pay the paltry amount, it's just that they don't want to. For this reason the rates must be increased. Not sure how the govt can do that with the kind of political environment we have but sooner or later they will have to.

Even in the sleeper coaches, tickets go unavailable the very first day in season. Why don't we just use our bullet train's budget in increasing the number of trains so that at least we give a chance to the citizens to travel like humans?

The budget part, I feel is the simplest thing to fix. But increasing the number of trains is never going to be easy. Because that would also require more tracks and better signalling system. I remember once reading that in Kerala (from PGT to TVC) a train crosses a station every 10-15 minutes. And consider the case of level crosses. The gates have to be opened and closed once every 15 minutes (or even to allow 2-3 trains to pass). To increase capacity all these needs to be addressed. Road Over bridges have to be built, signals have to be made automatic and then more lines have to be built. Many of the double line tracks are now satuarated.

Yes. Add to that the need to increase the length of platforms to accommodate for more number of coaches. All these require sharp focus. Unfortunately the focus seems to be on HSRs and related infrastructure only.

I admire IR's drive towards cleanliness, Rail Min's prompt responsiveness and other stuffs like WiFi etc. That's a huge huge improvement from his predecessors. But all these stuffs are only chatni coming free with dosa. If dosa is not tasty then no matter how tasty the chatni is, it is not going to impress the customer.

I've made some observations regarding the design of general coaches during my travelling. As General Singha rightly pointed out, the designs of these coaches has not changed since decades when they should have. Some very minor alterations would increase its capacity drastically. I'll post my suggestions later.

[Singha]

imo the idea of cheap unreserved long haul trains is good to move the really poor around. instead of AC , a better system of blowing fresh air can be worked out and the partitions between cubicles removed, larger windows etc..and 4 toilets at each end.
a janata hall coach if you will. 25 such coaches will haul a lot of people.

the garib raths will be a notch above these

imo we need to get rid of as many non-AC as possible the II sleeper III tier be replaced with 3AC.

[Vipul]

Capitals of all states in North-East to be connected by broad rail network by 2020: Govt.

With an aim to bring down the price of essential commodities in the north-east, the government on Monday said capitals of all the states in the region will be connected by broad gauge rail network by 2020.

"Rail connectivity has an impact on poverty alleviation. It will bring down prices of essential commodities particularly food grains. All the state capitals of the north- east region will be connected by broad gauge rail network by the year 2020," Rao Inderjit Singh, Minister of State for Planning, Statistics and Programme Implementation said in a written reply in Rajya Sabha.

[Singha]

there is resistance and whisper campaigns in nagaland and meghalaya to block these capital links claiming outsiders will flood the region...never mind outsiders can flood the place via roads too if that be the intent. net net NE is a economic failure and huge exporter of people - hardly the paradise these people imagine. a section of govt and contractors make out well thats all. their kids study in delhi, pune, blr and get admission via SC/ST quota much easily...and then well paying govt jobs , pensions and chances to make money again via quota.

[arshyam]

No illusions of sitting on a wheel saar. A wheel does go around, so one sitting 'on' it will eventually come down . You first assumed 'high ground' by assuming people will sucker punch you, and your thoughts being logical (and others' not so), so I simply asked you to enumerate those 'logical' thoughts first.

Nope then you understood me wrong. I don't think I am more logical than others. The sucker punch reference is a reference to extremists here who will go out with an all out personal name calling for sharing an alternate view. I have been too old and seen it all and had my fair share of verbal abuse. I dont think Suraj was a mod in those days. Even after I explained Suraj that I have done a lot of discussion on this HSR he still asks me to go read the first 2 pages. Can you show me in the first 2 pages where you guys discussed about aligning the existing infrastructure and upgrading to a semi-HSR to begin with and then gradually upgrading it to a full fledged HSR? I will be happy to be corrected, but I did not find that stuff in the first 2 pages.

That is what happens when the old threads are archived and the links are broken. We debated then a lot too and finally we had concluded (Including Theo - I have no idea where he is missing) that instead of going for a HSR it will be more cost effective to re-align the current infrastructure to increase the speed to a semi-HSR around 200 kmph. That is more economical and more cost effective as realigning the existing tracks and building via-ducts in crowded areas would require far more less money than the budget being envisioned. Moreover, the same track infrastructure can also be used by existing trains and good trains in night time off peak hours.

We did a lot of economic anaylsis and plaid lot of numbers and realized that would be best way to go. And as IR starts making money from this, slowly the same rail infrastructure and the rolling stock can be evolved to a full fledged HSR. That will be a far more inclusive economic model than putting a brand new HSR line in place.

I had made some lengthy posts in this regard a while, which somewhat agreed with your points. However, let me point out that:
a) just re-aligning the tracks for higher speeds won't solve the problem
b) the problem is running all sorts of trains on the same set of tracks, so the average speed is dictated by the slowest train on the line, which invariably is a goods train.

For any further improvement, we need more tracks, period. After decades of simply adding trains without augmenting infra, IR has reached a critical point where more trains can simply not be run, unless utilizing the engineering blocks that are reserved for safety/maintenance work. In that sense, Suresh Prabhu has done an admirable job in resisting pressure to add even more trains and focussing on adding more capacity. This goes for fully unreserved trains too, which is a parallel topic of discussion right now.

As regards HSR, I too was skeptical about the timing and initially maintained that we should consider it only after seeing another decade of growth. But having said that, my position was that HSR is a must need for India at some point, as airlines will simply not scale to the numbers that travel in India. I changed my mind only after seeing funding plan for HSR, wherein the Japanese via JICA are fully funding it at a very very low interest rate, with a 15 year moratorium, and Suresh Prabhu emphatically stating that his ministry is not funding the HSR at all. So there is no diversion of funds from IR budget to HSR, and the 15 year moratorium is an incentive for the govts of MH and GJ to move fast on the land acquisition aspects and operationalize it asap. The demand analysis for this line was done by disha-ji earlier (IIRC), you'll need to look it up. I think Suraj saar perhaps linked the same above.

Now my second argument is, if the government is hell bent on creating a brand new HSR trunk infrastructure from Mumbai to Ahmedabad, and do $15 Billions and charging INR 2000 ticket one way, then whats wrong with augmenting Air Travel. It costs pretty much the same and will not need a $15 billion investment.

Someone mentioned this already, so will refer to that here: what about Surat, Vadodara, etc? It's not worth the time to go to the airport, security, etc., just for a short 30 min journey. The airport related time overheads will make this unviable. Trains will go from city centre to city centre, and are far more efficient. Even for HSR, the MH govt is considering the Bandra-Kurla Complex for the terminus, which is a great location, IMHO.

Then let's look at the long term. Apart from Mumbai-Ahmedabad, other corridors with high demand are: Chennai-Bengaluru, Chennai - Coimbatore, Trivandrum-Kochi, Kolkata-Dhanbad, Bhopal-Indore, Delhi-Kanpur-Lucknow, Delhi-Chandigarh, Delhi-Amritsar, Delhi-Jaipur, etc. Most of these routes are currently served by Shatabdi expresses, and a simple upgrade and quadrupling of tracks will help a lot. I would start with a 130kmph to start with, going up to 160. Doing this will help other non-Shatabdi traffic as well, and goods trains will benefit from the increased track capacity. So far, so good. But in 20 years' time, even this will reach capacity, believe it or not. Then what? If the economy keeps growing during this time, then public affordability will have increased to warrant HSR on these routes. Airlines will take more traffic for sure, but won't be enough. My point is, building up existing infra on this routes for now, followed by HSR in the long term is a good way to go. And even then, watch how the most feasible route for HSR does before committing to more routes (the Chinese studies for other routes won't go anywhere). And that's what IR is doing based on the latest budget - diamond quadrilateral and associated infra investments to increase speeds to 160, and zero investment into HSR.

Lastly, in the grand scheme of things, a $15 billion capital investment is not really that much, especially when invested over a decade or two. And this investment is going to the most feasible location at this point. If the initial HSR was supposed to be Mumbai-Pune with all the attendant mountain-engineering costs, then I would be sceptical too.

[arshyam]

Yes. Add to that the need to increase the length of platforms to accommodate for more number of coaches. All these require sharp focus.

Unfortunately, we cannot. All the junctions and important stations have platform lengths for 24 coach trains already. IR can, at best, add another 2 coaches to make 26 coach trains. But beyond that, not feasible. One needs to keep in mind that the train length is not infinite, and is dictated by things like block spacing (distance between signals), loop line lengths, etc. Then, longer trains will need more locomotives and tractive effort, all of which will increase energy consumption; there is a limit where energy cost-revenue ratio becomes unsustainable. Also, additional locos impose a speed penalty on electrified sections due to the design of our OHE and oscillations by multiple pantographs in the same consist.

And even these 2 extra coaches to get to 26 will need the feasibility studies to be fully done, followed by platform improvements to support 26 coach rakes, yard capacity, and lastly, the extra coaches themselves. Having done all this, IR will prefer to add revenue generating 3AC coaches here, given the deep hue of red ink they have been seeing for a long time.

Introducing more trains to serve the poor and migrant labour (which I agreed with above) needs more track capacity. No two ways about it. Adding more unreserved coaches to existing trains, which are already maxed out, will not always help as the demand is so high. Only fully dedicated 24 coach unreserved trains, directly subsidised by GoI, running every 3 hours on all trunk routes, coupled with improved intra-state and short distance bus services will really solve the problem.

Unfortunately the focus seems to be on HSRs and related infrastructure only.

Please point out where Suresh Prabhu has been discussing HSR only at the cost of other IR projects.

[Suraj]

Good post, arshyam. Thanks for taking your own time to restate a lot of what's covered in the first two pages, when others can't seem to spend time to read it.

[Singha]

Stop trolling admins bro. Friendly suggestion. The.next admin flying by might not be so lenient.

[Singha]

Without massive investment, Indian Railways will not go any further: Suresh Prabhu
http://www.dnaindia.com/money/report-wi ... hu-2211074

[hanumadu]

For HSR, the profitability and break even capacity will also be affected by electricity prices. The average costof electricity in India is 8 cents/unit (Rs 4.6) where as it is 26 cents/unit according to this site.
https://www.ovoenergy.com/guides/energy ... s-kwh.html

The average salary in India will also be around 1/3 of Japanese salaries or lesser. Its only the cost of infrastructure that will be comparable to that of Japan. Even here anything manufactured (coaches) and built (tracks, stations) in India will bring down the cost.

[hanumadu]

Agreed and can you point me towards the official documentation which governs liability in the even of bankruptcy?

Bankruptcy is out of question. Even if you stop operating the HSR and let it rot after building it, the out go for servicing the investment is less than Rs 2000cr/year (practically no interest). After 15 years, when the first payment starts, Rs 2000 cr/year will be Rs 500cr/year in todays money.

You can either cower and worry about what will happen if there is a short fall in traffic or build it out, see how it goes and plan future HSR or determine its not worth it. You will never know if you don't try it out and with those loan terms, you will be a fool not to avail of the opportunity. Its practically free money.

If we luck out and there is a favourable exchange rate movement (it will once we stop importing oil, electric vehicles take over, make in Inda), the payments will be even smaller.

[Suraj]

I see two conflicting sets of information on offsets for the Mumbai-Ahmedabad HSR project:
* 30% offset clause to Japan, i.e. 30% of the rolling stock by value is procured from Japanese companies source
* No offset clause at all in this JICA loan

Other pieces of information are: link
* Fare of 1.5x of current AC 1st class (Rs.3300 based on current Rs.2200 Duronto fare)
* Distance: 508km
* Fastest trip: 2.07hrs (two stops at Surat and Vadodara)
* Slowest trip: 2.58hrs (12 stops including terminuses)
* Current journey length: 8hrs
* Operating speed: 320km/h
* Max speed: 350km/h
* Expected traffic: 36000/day in 2023, 186000/day in 2053



Note that the IIM-A study presumes a ticket price of Rs.1500 , which is less than half the planned price and 68% of the current Duronto 1AC fare. Even the current Shatabdi fare is Rs.1920. Here's a reference to the actual paper: Dedicated High Speed Rail Network in India: Issues in Development

The paper has their assumptions stated. Doubling the assumed fare essentially reduces the number of journeys required by half, all else being unchanged. This requires ~3 trips per hour in a typical 15-16hr daily operation period. This is nowhere near saturation level; the Tokaido Shinkansen line carries ~14 trains per hour at peak, with 16-car trains of ~1300 passengers departing off multiple platforms at Tokyo Station within minutes of each other.

[Kakkaji]

Whatever the merits, the HSR could become a PR disaster for the NaMo Govt come election time. The argument will be that the Govt is buildng a bullet train for the super-rich, while the ordinary people ae still packed like cattle in unreserved compartments.

The merits of HSR, and its nil impact on IR finances, will have to be explained very carefully to the public, to get their buy-in.

[Suraj]

Whatever the merits, the HSR could become a PR disaster for the NaMo Govt come election time. The argument will be that the Govt is buildng a bullet train for the super-rich, while the ordinary people ae still packed like cattle in unreserved compartments.

This is a topic for the politics thread, though.

[Singha]

posted in brf before but reposting to drive home the need for 3 and 4 tracking