Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

[Philip]

4th test of Nirbhay shortly.
http://idrw.org/indias-problematic-subs ... ted-again/

India’s Problematic Subsonic Nirbhay Cruise missile to be tested again Published May 11, 2016 SOURCE : ENS Even as the probe report on the fiasco during last trial of homegrown subsonic cruise missile Nirbhay is yet to be submitted formally, the DRDO has planned to go for a fresh test of the weapon system from a defence test facility off Odisha coast. More than a decade into its development, India is yet to achieve a milestone in Nirbhay project. Of three tests of the long-range all-weather cruise missile so far, two have failed miserably exposing the technological deficiencies to develop a cruise missile on its own. While the missile was to be terminated mid-way during its maiden test on March 12, 2013, during its third test on October 16 last year, the missile veered off the intended trajectory due to some technical snags in the sub systems. The second test of the missile on October 17, 2014 could not be declared a roaring success as the weapon was seen struggling in flight and symptoms of engine coughing were also noticed. Defence sources said though India is yet to have its own technology to develop any supersonic or hypersonic cruise missile, Nirbhay is the first system developed by the DRDO with subsonic speed. Since the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) prohibits the signatories from providing technology to any other country developing a cruise missile with a range greater than or equal to 300 km, Indo-Russian joint venture BrahMos supersonic cruise missile has a strike range of 290 km. Sources said the inquiry committee, led by National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) Director Shyam Chetty and set up to probe the last October 16 failure, has not submitted its report even six months after the incident. DRDO scientists associated with the mission, however, claimed that faults in the system have been rectified and the system will be ready for test after final check-ups. “If the system gets ready, the missile will be launched in June. If it fails to get clearance now, the trial will be conducted in October,” the sources said. The missile, which can be compared with America’s Tomahawk missile, will be fired from the launching complex-III of the Integrated Test Range (ITR). The cruise missile having a strike range of around 750 km to 1,000 km is expected to supplement the BrahMos. The two-stage missile has a length of six meters, diameter of 0.52 m, wing span 2.7 m and a launch weight of about 1,500 kg. While the Bengaluru-based Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) has designed the missile, it has been developed by Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL) of DRDO.

..http://idrw.org . Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website , Kindly don http://idrw.org/indias-problematic-subs ... ted-again/ .

[srai]

Where will the S 400 be based in India ?
My suggestion,
2 in NE - Assam & Arunachal Pradesh
1 in north - J&K and Punjab
1 in Rajasthan - for Rajasthan and Haryana
1 in Gujarat - For Gujarat and Maharashtra i.e. Mumbai

I would suggest one system for Andaman Islands and another of Visakhapatnam

LRSAM will be far less effective in the mountains than in the plains. There would be too many radar shadows behind hills and mountains. LLQRM are more effective there.

If these S-400s come, then they would be around main cities (primarily Delhi and Mumbai), strategic military bases and C2 centers, and other critical infrastructure (i.e.nuclear power plants, oil & gas reserves/refinaries and other heavy industrial areas). Five S-400s units are barely enough to cover some of these in the Western sector.

[srai]

^^ So, all the news about S-400 was indeed correct and not Lifafa as had been decired when it first burst out!

Lifafa was the news that the deal would be signed when Namo met Putin. And if by lousy luck Namo isn't elected again - even this may fall through (2017-2022 dates for S-400)... No point celebrating anything until it is actually in hand.

MOD press release only mentioned that these are "planned" for the next 5-year plan. Doesn't say anything about confirmed orders yet. If India wants offsets, ToT, licensed production among other things, then expect lengthy negotiations like the Rafale deal, which has also BTW been approved by DAC and has been in the plans for a long time now

[Kersi D]

Five S-400s units are barely enough to cover some of these in the Western sector.

This is what I meant.
To cover all our land borders we need 12 - 15 systems. One each in Maharashtra, Gujarat, Rajsathan, Haryana/Punjab, J&K / HP, UP, Bengal Assam.
Plus 1 or 2 in Andaman Islands and 1 in Lakhswadeep.
Can we afford it ?

[Kersi D]

^^ So, all the news about S-400 was indeed correct and not Lifafa as had been decired when it first burst out!

Lifafa was the news that the deal would be signed when Namo met Putin. And if by lousy luck Namo isn't elected again - even this may fall through (2017-2022 dates for S-400)... No point celebrating anything until it is actually in hand.

MOD press release only mentioned that these are "planned" for the next 5-year plan. Doesn't say anything about confirmed orders yet. If India wants offsets, ToT, licensed production among other things, then expect lengthy negotiations like the Rafale deal, which has also BTW been approved by DAC and has been in the plans for a long time now

Have we ever got any offset agreements for $$$ billions form any Russian purchase ?

How dare you ask our comrade brothers for offsets ? Just take waht they give Just pay what they ask.

[Philip]

Well,this acquisition will put a mental brake upon any foolhardy N-adventurism by our two mortal enemies,who have never renounced a NFU N-strike policy. What is also required is a robust second and third layer of air defence using Akash,etc. for strat centres like refineries,key bases and command centres,Sr SAMs as a alst resort to counter cruise missiles and PGMs. Key mil command/strat command centres should be located deep underground/within mountains with N-strike survivability. The principal metros should be protected with S-400/whatever BM missile systems. Compared to the Rafale's costs,a fig of $10B would not be exorbitant for acquiring such systems and widening the blanket of missile cover.The LR/ER SAM,B-8 could be the next major level of tactical AD ,apart from our own Prithvi strat AD system in the works. Whether B-8 has been conceived as a multi-capable missile like the US SR series is a moot point.

[Viv S]

Well,this acquisition will put a mental brake upon any foolhardy N-adventurism by our two mortal enemies,who have never renounced a NFU N-strike policy.

China was the first nation to declare a no-first-use nuclear policy. In 1964. And yes. they haven't 'renounced' it to date.

[shiv]

S-400 systems placed in Rajasthan, Northern Punjab, Uttarakhand, Bengal and Arunachal Pradesh could pretty much cover the entire land border no?

[SSridhar]

China was the first nation to declare a no-first-use nuclear policy. In 1964. And yes. they haven't 'renounced' it to date.

Nobody is sure about that now.

China has been somewhat ambiguous about its NFU policy ever since Xi Jinping took over as President. First, he failed to reiterate the Chinese NFU policy while addressing the Second Artllery Corps (responsible for all land-based nuclear weapons) in December 2012 (Xi Jinping had just been selected as General Secretary of the Chinese Communist Party) . While Chinese leaders, since Mao Zedong, have always played down the significance of nuclear weapons, Xi Jinping, contrarily, spoke of nuclear weapons creating a ‘strategic space’ for China propelling it towards a’great power status’. This was a significant omission of NFU coming from a person who was not only the President but also the General Secreatry of CPC as well as military chief of the PLA. Later, a Chinese white paper on defence, released in April 2013, also omitted the NFU principle, again for the first time since c. 1964 when the first such paper was released. China later explained away unconvincingly the omission in the 2013 white paper as due to a change in the structure of the paper.

[srai]

S-400 systems placed in Rajasthan, Northern Punjab, Uttarakhand, Bengal and Arunachal Pradesh could pretty much cover the entire land border no?

That would be high-altitude coverage. Over 100km+ SAMs are typically a lot less effective engaging targets flying near max ranges and lower altitudes; they would be below radar horizon. There will be lots of gaps to exploit at lower altitudes if they are spaced that far apart.

[brar_w]

For low altitude flight paths that the bandars and vipers are likely to employ you are looking at a sub 150km radar Horizon even in the best case (sub 100 more likely) . At the higher altitude deployments (deploying sensors and the system at higher altitudes) you are obviously limited by the sensor performance limitations and high altitude performance of the support gear. Haven't been able to find much credible data on S300 sensor altitude deploying envelope but you would naturally need extensive system modification if you want to operate the sensors at full capability at the very high deploying altitudes. These will serve the metros the best against missiles and other high value targets. For broader coverage of the border areas against strike fighters a denser AD system that is distributed is going to be better.

[Cain Marko]

S-400 systems placed in Rajasthan, Northern Punjab, Uttarakhand, Bengal and Arunachal Pradesh could pretty much cover the entire land border no?

That would be high-altitude coverage. Over 100km+ SAMs are typically a lot less effective engaging targets flying near max ranges and lower altitudes; they would be below radar horizon. There will be lots of gaps to exploit at lower altitudes if they are spaced that far apart.

Wouldn't a layered ads mitigate this? S400 would require fighters to adopt lo profile much earlier in their ingress thereby putting a crimp in payload and range

[Austin]

^^ True the S-400 wont be deployed as stand alone system but it would be part of layered AD and Radar , That would also include PAD/AAD , Barak-NG when its available , Akash systems and SRSAM system of IAF , I assume the S-400 would be operated by IAF. Radar would certainly be S-400's Radar plus GP ,Medium/Low Level Radar , Blimps etc perhaps even AWACS in case of actual conflict.

[shiv]

The real value of the S-400 may be to keep enemy AWACS aircraft 400 km away..

[Kanson]

thanks Austin - this is it boys...makes sense that nothing aerodynamic of a practical weight and cost can go at Mach6 close to the ground and still remain in one piece. so brahmos2 is about a long range, fast transit and ceiling in upper atmosphere using scramjet, then perhaps a Mach3 terminal stage. if they pull the MTCR stunt of 300k again, this project makes no sense for us.

it has to be 600-1000km to be considered a practical weapon for us.

May be I am missing something, just going for a different line of thinking. What kind of target would I require a hypersonic solution? The easiest one is ship, may be nuke storage sites etc. Fundamentally time constraint targets. What are the chances of hitting a ship 1K away?

Can it be served with a much simpler solution? Like a ballistic missile having datalink ? Or a glide weapon on top of a missile,released from exo, instead of using a scramjet?

I am thinking of the cost v/s benefit as well.

>>What kind of target would I require a hypersonic solution?
Everything.
1. Just like supersonic it makes the defense cumbersome reducing reaction time, reducing response time of interceptor and increasing no. of interceptors required.
2. Every SAM system is not geared for handling hypersonic targets.

>>Can it be served with a much simpler solution? Like a ballistic missile having datalink ? Or a glide weapon on top of a missile,released from exo, instead of using a scramjet?
Even if it is through Ballistic Missile or Glide weapon, to maneuver the missile/RV through dense atmosphere at terminal stage you need a supersonic[or any] missile engine.

[member_29190]

S-400 should also help us firm up V-LRSAM tactics and give us an idea what feature the Russian system has.

With LRSAM, BMD plans in the future, we will now have a operational reference to compare.

Looks like we are working towards a dense SAM network. Compare this what we had till end of last decade....

[member_29190]

Wouldn't a layered ads mitigate this? S400 would require fighters to adopt lo profile much earlier in their ingress thereby putting a crimp in payload and range

PAF F-16 will have their RWR screaming... as soon as they take off.

The Indian SAM envelope will now start from Baluchistan.

The Paks warned the world, that India wants to take over Pakistan.. They were right.

[Kanson]

Why does IAF need this? A stop gap till Indigenous system comes online? the LRSAM and AAD should be the priority.

The answer to this is the way IAF operated to defend our cities and places and how it wanted to transform in the coming years and how it like meet the threat in present and future.
Traditionally IAF defended our cities through interceptors and SAM where ever possible. With proliferation of PGMs and their ever increasing range, old mechanism needs a new look. This can be done either through big fleet of aircraft like US operates or through SAMs or a mix of both.

From the MMRCA days, IAF maintains that it is looking for change in force structure. It plans to increase medium category ratio[that is Rafale types]. Looking at the fund crunch this means IAF cannot protect our borders in the same way as it was doing by having more number of interceptors at low end category as it is planing to increase medium category numbers. So this task has to be shared more by SAMs.

Second, our cities are much closer to our border, to protect from long range PGMs we need long range SAM.

>>A stop gap till Indigenous system comes online?
Yes. ~300Km Indigenous SAM is in the pipeline.

[Austin]

The real value of the S-400 may be to keep enemy AWACS aircraft 400 km away..

Thats very true , I remember reading AW&ST in 90's during kosovo conflict where it was mentioned that NATO would not operate JSTARS at some 200 km away because the intel suspected Serbs had S-300 which was not true but the physiological impact of LR SAM is clearly felt.

Coming back to S-400 5 system purchase a knowledgeble poster in keypubs mentioned

TASS's "source close to Indian MOD" says the "complex" in this purchase is basically equated to "polks" in Russian service.

One polk= two divisional compliment, each division has 8 TELs. (Though Russia has some 3 divisional polks, this doesn't seem to be an export standard, yet).

Assuming everything is expected this is 80 TELs, 4 tubes per TEL....the 6000 missiles seems a bit much, but probably includes long-term deliveries and enough to cover many training launches over the next few decades.

The 5 systems indeed looks a big buy when it comes to sheer number , They can divide and deploy the TEL and Radar in multiple cities , Even if one assumes says 100 SAM missile with Reload per city we care looking at such deployment in theory could cover 50-60 Locations/Cities etc .. That apart they would just be part of the other big puzzle namely LRSAM , PAD/AAD , Barak-8 , Akash etc.

Looks like our ADGES will go through a big upgrade in the next 10 years with so many new systems in pipeline

If I have to guess deployment then Mumbai , Delhi and Banglore are certainties for S-400 due to WNC/BARC , Capital , many strategic industry in Bangalore.

[Kashi]

If I have to guess deployment then Mumbai , Delhi and Banglore are certainties for S-400 due to WNC/BARC , Capital , many strategic industry in Bangalore.

Probably Hyderabad as well.

But as Hakeemji pointed out, we will need defensive shields on the Indo-Pak and Indo-China borders as well. Surely, 5 S-400 systems cannot cover them all.

Can we assume that more systems are not being purchased (apart from the cost) since, GoI, the forces and DPSUs are confident that our homegrown systems will be fully ready in time to augment S-400 installations?

[Austin]

SAM cover works like 360 * bubble with each SAM/Radar having its own overlapping coverage , like S-400 has 4 missile with 40 to 400 km range , Barak-NG has 150 Km range , AAD/PAD systems ,Akash 25 km , Spyder will be the lowest tier system , then there are upgraded Pechora system and upgraded older SAM , beyond that there are Survellence Radar , SAM has its own FC radar , like Greenpine LR Radar , different Medium and Low Level Radar , with the latest ADGES even the civilian Radars are integrated into Surveillance. They would be complimented by Ground based Jammers , COMINT,SIGNIT equipment something like DRDO Divya Drishti ,I have left out things like THD or AWACS or Tethered Baloon . In the end its a complex web of systems with its own overlapping multiple coverage and redundancies , Most of these systems are mobile and they can be very frustrating for any enemy dealing with such mobile systems as Kosovo war has shown.

IAF would be aware of the terrain at Indo-Pak border and China and which radar can be effective and which one has blind zone beyond a certain range and deployment would be such that it minimises these blind zone

[nits]

I used a tool (https://www.freemaptools.com/radius-around-point.htm) and adjusted the plotter to 400Km Radius. See below image where i have tried to randomly used a location which covers all our east and west border + Delhi and by 4 S-400 with 400 Km radius we can cover both fronts with 1 for spare or for Andamans

Ofcourse i am not a expert and it and may not be full proof with flaws which i am not technically fit to examine but IMHO 5 are good numbers to start with and meet our minimum requirements

[shiv]

^^This is pretty much what i did. I like and I agree

[Singha]

so NE is left nanga to fend for itself as usual. I call it the Banditji SAM plan circa 1962.

[shiv]

so NE is left nanga to fend for itself as usual. I call it the Banditji SAM plan circa 1962.

NO - he has put only 4. Putting the fifth will cover NE. Plus I think the fourth one on the R side should be in North Bengal. 5th one in Aru Pradesh

[abhik]

At 400km the target would have to be flying at greater than 40k feet, I assume a fast jet can simply loose some altitude to shake off the radar lock. But will heighten the strategic depth complex of the pakies though.

[JTull]

so NE is left nanga to fend for itself as usual. I call it the Banditji SAM plan circa 1962.

I thought IAF's first Akash sqns were for the NE bases.

[manjgu]

arey bhai..ek aur khareed lenge...fulltroo coverage rahega NE main bhi. HIndustan mein hawa bhi nahi ghus payegi

[nits]

Ok used 5 S-400 and NE is also covered; mistake was unintentional

[nits]

^^ related discussion of S-400 for China - posting in China Thread

[shiv]

Ok used 5 S-400 and NE is also covered; mistake was unintentional

https://i.imgsafe.org/a76d19f.jpg

Why not edit the other map with the new link alsooo?

[uddu]

What about Bangalore, Kerala.

[Austin]

At 400km the target would have to be flying at greater than 40k feet, I assume a fast jet can simply loose some altitude to shake off the radar lock. But will heighten the strategic depth complex of the pakies though.

I think the first line of defence in those sector covering Pak-NE China would be a CAP and not a SAM , Chances are such enemy would likely encounter a Bison or MKI or some other type.

[shiv]

What about Bangalore, Kerala.

S400 needed for attack from Maharashtra, Andhra, Telengana and Tamil Nadu.

[Karthik S]

^

[adityadange]

What is the point in providing cover to Nepal that too with 2 systems? below is how i would arrange the systems. Yes there are gaps for sure but those can be filled with shorter range systems.
Other point is, the cities bordering to nepal are not that much of strategic nature. so attacking them with missiles would not achieve much tactical advantage. sending aircrafts through nepal's airspace would require long range planes. also that will draw international attention for breaching nepal's airspace.

[shiv]

What is the point in providing cover to Nepal that too with 2 systems? below is how i would arrange the systems. Yes there are gaps for sure but those can be filled with shorter range systems.

Detection and shootdown over Nepal

[nirav]

With the pakistanians getting hold of stand off munitons and More such platforms, atleast 1 S400 system ought to be deployed with IAs offensive punch the IBGs.

Coupled with aircover by the Sukhois and additional fire support by the mud movers, this Badass capabilty is certain too make baki gernails crap blood.

Apart from Afg, they wil need Iran too for "strategic" depth.

[ramana]

Folks I suggest don't bring in regionalism into this thread.
The forces are deployed per threat perceptions and timelines.

[member_29190]

With the pakistanians getting hold of stand off munitons and More such platforms, atleast 1 S400 system ought to be deployed with IAs offensive punch the IBGs.

Coupled with aircover by the Sukhois and additional fire support by the mud movers, this Badass capabilty is certain too make baki gernails crap blood.

Apart from Afg, they wil need Iran too for "strategic" depth.

To really blunt the standoff capability of PAF, we need SAM which can suppliment S400.Need cheaper missiles with similar range. At this moment S400 will be a silver bullet.

LRSAM will be the real deal. It should be produced in thousands.