Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

vonkabra · Post by **vonkabra** » 20 May 2016 16:27

Philip wrote: During WW2,Germany lost the " Battle of the Atlantic" for two principal reasons.First,the Brits had broken the German code and knew exactly where German subs were operating.Using this info they sent their warships,subs and aircraft to sink the U-boats.Secondly,Hitler gave enough importance to the U-boat campaign of Gr.Adm.Doenitz. Sinking Allied convoys taking war materiel to Murmansk and Russia was a primary concern.

Identifying merchant vessels,etc. today is an easier task thanks to sat commns.etc.If the In have a series of dedicated sats meant for the IOR,it will greatly aid the IN in monitoring all kinds of shipping. Since there are also key chokepoints too for ingress and egress of the IOR,subs can quietly loiter at these points and wait for their prey to arrive.

That's a partial response to one of 3 points and even that is far from complete. The U-Boats did not lose just because of the Enigma code getting broken - there were many other reasons including very few submarines available when the war started and very late entry of the Type XXI. Please provide your comments on the other points so that we can analyse whether the 'choke point' strategy can actually be implemented.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 May 2016 16:29

Per report today the four ships sailing east have total 1 sea King and a few chetaks. Such is the state of the sea King fleet

We need those sh60 asap to properly pritect our ships

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 20 May 2016 17:32

indranilroy wrote:ShauryaT and SudeepJ

Can you please discuss without raising your blood pressures.

Will take it up on some other thread, it is OT here, more to do with the strategy to meet the china threat and what these are. There is a separate thread for it.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 20 May 2016 20:01

Philip wrote:During WW2,Germany lost the " Battle of the Atlantic" for two principal reasons.First,the Brits had broken the German code and knew exactly where German subs were operating.Using this info they sent their warships,subs and aircraft to sink the U-boats.Secondly,Hitler gave enough importance to the U-boat campaign of Gr.Adm.Doenitz. Sinking Allied convoys taking war materiel to Murmansk and Russia was a primary concern.

Identifying merchant vessels,etc. today is an easier task thanks to sat commns.etc.If the In have a series of dedicated sats meant for the IOR,it will greatly aid the IN in monitoring all kinds of shipping. Since there are also key chokepoints too for ingress and egress of the IOR,subs can quietly loiter at these points and wait for their prey to arrive.

Enigma is only a partial explanation. The convoy system with armed escort and long range maritime aircraft with radar is the other explanation. Even if there was a general idea where the sub was from enigma messages, attacking it at night when it was surfaced and charging its batteries/getting resupplied was something quite another.

Bottom line is, once the DE sub is located, its virtually indefensible. A frigate can fight its way out and can even absorb some punishment. A task force with long range SAMs, Anti ship missiles presents a very difficult target. A CBG is virtually impregnable.

BharadwajV · Post by **BharadwajV** » 20 May 2016 23:52

Totally O.T:
Watched "Das Boot" and not only was it entertaining but showed a lot about German U Boat actions (whose crew had so much guts and whose captains were so innovative in divising tactics on the go) which caused the Britshits to lose Millions of tonnes of ~~cargo~~ aid and hundreds of ships.

Had the submerged speeds of those boats been higher, there would have been even more "runs" (of the hit and run) for the U Boat crew.

I somehow like the Soryu idea of using Li-ion Batteries to prolong endurance more than the AIP systems, as these sacrifice the submerged speed to a much greater extent.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 May 2016 11:48

Recent year-long exercises by the USN with an old Swedish diesel boat has proven otherwise.The sub repeatedly "sank" the carrier and its escorts even when the CBG had its own N-sub escort.
Diesel boats like the Kilos are v,hard to detect esp. in the IOR due to coastal sea conditions,muddy waters,thermal gradients,etc. In another exercise with the USN ,an IN Kilo got the better of a USN N-sub too. In the littorals,diesel boats will prevail. Secondly,many diesel boats today also carry SAMs for destruction of ASW helos. Though this will result in the incident and its location being detected, it allows the sub to decide whether to destroy the helo or even lowflying ASW aircraft.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 21 May 2016 16:52

The Kriegsmarine lost the battle of the Atlantic due to a combination of reasons, reduced U-Boat strength stretching it thin, superior Allied ASW efforts including use of microwave radar and RDF, Allied shipping organised into convoys with armed escorts and the genius of Alan Turing's code breaking efforts. Infact, not long into the war, the Type VIIC (a surface vessel that could submerge) was already long in the tooth and the Type XXI (a submersible that could surface) was too late.

1. At the start of WWII, Doentiz had far fewer U-boats than he wanted

2. During the early days, the Type VIIC was creating havoc on Allied shipping in the Atlantic. Many legends were created - Gunther Prien, Schepke, Kretschemer, Eric Topp,

3. Allies responded by organising shipping in convoys with armed escorts with ASDIC - precursor of modern SONAR, ASDIC did not work against U-Boats operating on the surface as they preferred to do at night. Wolfpack tactics meant U-Boat radio chatter to converge U-boats prior to massed attack were honed in and pack location fixed by Allied RDF.

4. De-crypting German cyphers was considered vital. In 1940, Operation Ruthless led by Ian Fleming (the 007 chappie) was hatched to capture Enigma codes but was cancelled.

5. Alan Turning and Gordon Welchman's brilliant efforts at Bletchly park to break German cyphers (watch the movie "The Imitation Game"). Capture of an intact Enigma and code books from U-110 . The Engima from U-110 gave Turning the rotors that he needed so badly. (Winston Churchill later said that Turing made the single biggest contribution to Allied victory).Sadly, Turing was later tried and convicted for homosexuality and was sent to a "re-education' camp; Churchill's praise not withstanding.

6. Doenitz's Wolfpack "Happy time" pretty much ended in 1941

7. British development of the the 10 cm 'ASV III' airbone microwave radar could detect periscopes and snorkels Allied ASW aircraft prowled the Atlantic skies equipped with the ASV III and Rdio Direction finding gear. From '43 to the end of WWII, most Kriegsmarine losses were due to Allied Airbone ASW.

8. By 1943 the RAF ASW aircraft (unopposed by the Luftwaffe) completely dominated the Bay of Biscay (Valley of Death). U-Boats were being slaughtered as they exited and entered port. By now, a surfaced U-boat was almost certainly dead meat and a submerged Type ViIC had limited endurance. If it used its snorkel, the British 10 cm ASW radar would pick it up and it would be attacked, Where was the Luftwaffe - fighting a lost war on the Eastern front?

8. Another Enigma and its codes were retrieved by the US from U-505 (Type iX) captured in 1944

9. German RWR tech (METOX) lagged behind Allied radar tech.

10. The Type XXI was the first submarine that was faster submerged than surfaced but arrived too late to make a difference to Germany's war. After the war, this type was divided as war booty and influenced post war submarine design for a long time with the last of the original type serving right up until the early eighties.

Das Boot is a Wolfgang Petersen masterpiece, the best submarine movie and the highest grossing German film ever. It is based on a true story based on Lothar Buccheim's notes/book when he accompanied U-96 (with the now famous laughing saw fish emblem) on her 7th patrol under Willenbrock's command. Best watched in native German with English sub titles.

Willenbrock's himself was one of the U-Boat aces.

The movie deviated from fact in a few places for dramatic effect and the ending was changed completely to please American audiences and for box office success. Infact, Willenbrock survived the patrol and died in '86. U-96 herself was sunk by an US air raid a few month before Germany surrendered.

Petersen used a special stabilised ARRIFLEX camera to convey the confined spaces of a U-Boat.

Sigh, the lunch hours I spent in my school library pouring over U-Boat books.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 21 May 2016 20:42

Philip wrote:Recent year-long exercises by the USN with an old Swedish diesel boat has proven otherwise.The sub repeatedly "sank" the carrier and its escorts even when the CBG had its own N-sub escort.
Diesel boats like the Kilos are v,hard to detect esp. in the IOR due to coastal sea conditions,muddy waters,thermal gradients,etc. In another exercise with the USN ,an IN Kilo got the better of a USN N-sub too.

All of these exercises take place within the ROE and 'parameters' set for the exercise, such as artificially limiting the range and capabilities of the weapons. The objective is to let the crew work their drills and practice in somewhat realistic scenarios, not to decide which is the better weapons system. In almost all of these exercises, both the 'see' and the 'kill' part of the see-kill chain are artificial. There is also a PR element as respective services use 'results' to drive acquisitions that they want. Taking these as some kind of yardstick results that will be replicated in war time is a most unwise approach.

For instance, in war time, if a DE sub fired a torp at an SSN, the SSN can simply outrun the torpedo at high speeds.. There is a reason why we are spending the money to acquire SSNs rather than more DE boats and its not just the range or the 'status'.

Philip wrote: In the littorals,diesel boats will prevail.

This is a mantra that DE enthusiasts keep repeating. Lets develop some scenarios..
(a) Is the sub in defensive deployment trying to deter an invasion?
(b) Offensive mode trying to deny the use of the area to a hostile state?
(c) What are the capabilities of the adversary?

Lets also consider, that IN wants to be a blue water, open ocean navy. We already have our brown waters controlled well, thank you, and at present, the only other brown water we want to go in is around the coast of Karachi. For USN, going into hostile littorals is a core project because of the nature of their requirements.

Philip wrote: Secondly,many diesel boats today also carry SAMs for destruction of ASW helos. Though this will result in the incident and its location being detected, it allows the sub to decide whether to destroy the helo or even lowflying ASW aircraft.

Is this an already deployed capability or brochures? This will give the sub some capability to hunt those coming to hunt it, but this advantage will likely be temporary with the hunters responding with unmanned sensors. E.g. There was recently the news of really long range, long endurance unmanned submarine sensors, that can tail a DE sub for weeks, robbing it of the only asset it has, i.e. stealth.

Because its slow, because of its limited endurance, because of its lack of 'net centricity', lack of capability to absorb punishment, lack of self defense capability, a DE sub will always be the hunted (except in some very specific scenarios, such as: first attack on an enemy harbor, setting up a defensive ambush in own harbor). Some technological innovation, such as AIP, SAMs will serve only to mitigate these drawbacks, not give the sub any real advantage.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 May 2016 22:30

Six old submarines to get a facelift

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/i ... 617345.ece

To maintain its depleting sub-surface levels, the Navy has begun the process of upgrading six of its oldest submarines. The first of them is en route Russia for major refit and life certification (MRLC), which will extend its operational life by 10 years.

INS Sindhukesari, a Kilo-class submarine commissioned in 1989, left India in early May and is scheduled to reach the Zvezdochka yard at Severodvinsk in Russia in two months, Navy sources said on Wednesday.

“These submarines have completed over 25 years of service. It was decided to upgrade them in view of the delay in the induction of new submarines. The main aspect of the MRLC is that it will be certified by the original equipment manufacturer (OEM),” a senior Navy officer said.

In August 2014, the Defence Acquisition Council had accorded approval for sending six submarines for the MRLC — four Russian Kilo class and two German HDW class. The process is expected to cost over Rs. 1,000 crore each. Two Kilo class submarines are to be sent to Russia, while two more would be upgraded in India by the Hindustan Shipyard Limited in Vizag. Both the HDW submarines are to be upgraded in India, one each by Mazagaon Dock Limited (MDL) and the Naval Dockyard, Mumbai.

“The upgradation plan might be revised based on the induction of Scorpene submarines as their schedules are being accelerated,” the official said.

The government had approved an ambitious “30-year submarine construction plan” in 1999 for building 24 conventional submarines under two different production lines. But not a single submarine has been inducted till date and the first Scorpene submarine under Project-75, after repeated delays, has just begun sea trials and is expected to join the force in October this year.

Incidentally, the Scorpenes will roll out without their major weapon, heavy weight torpedoes, which are caught up in allegations of corruption in other defence deals.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 May 2016 05:59

INS Varsha

nits · Post by **nits** » 23 May 2016 16:05

Austin wrote:In August 2014, the Defence Acquisition Council had accorded approval for sending six submarines for the MRLC — four Russian Kilo class and two German HDW class. The process is expected to cost over Rs. 1,000 crore each. Two Kilo class submarines are to be sent to Russia, while two more would be upgraded in India by the Hindustan Shipyard Limited in Vizag. Both the HDW submarines are to be upgraded in India, one each by Mazagaon Dock Limited (MDL) and the Naval Dockyard, Mumbai.

1) How much time will it take to upgarde one submarine... and i believe it will be phased manner like 1 or 2 at a iime

Austin wrote:Incidentally, the Scorpenes will roll out without their major weapon, heavy weight torpedoes, which are caught up in allegations of corruption in other defence deals.

2) can;t we procure torpedoes from some other company or from Russia ?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 May 2016 17:50

1 to 2 years depending upon the amt of work required. Russia is building new Kilos at record speed,2 years for a new boat,6 on order.For a refit,the old boat has first to be cut open ,inspected,then machinery and eqpt. removed,and new machinery,etc. replaced. Therefore extra work involved.We perhaps would've been better off ordering 4-6 new Kilos! They would've arrived at the same time.Only advantage,upgrade for another decade at half the price of a new boat. Buying new boats would've been better,but then finances are in difficult times,this is the option taken.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 23 May 2016 18:34

Russia seems to have understood importance of strong submarine force. Wonder why India is not pursuing similar path wrt submarines what with GDP increasing in steps.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 24 May 2016 08:06

INS Tarmugli joins the Indian Navy.

he Indian Navy on Monday commissioned the highly maneuverable Fast Attack Craft INS Tarmugli at the hands of Vice Admiral HCS Bisht AVSM, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Eastern Naval Command at a formal ceremony held at Naval Dockyard, Visakhapatnam.

INS Tarmugli is being based in Visakhapatnam under the Naval Officer-in-Charge (Andhra Pradesh) and would be deployed for coastal patrol and surveillance operations along the East Coast of India.

Built by M/s Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers Ltd (GRSE), INS Tarmugli is the first Follow-on Water Jet Fast Attack Craft (WJFAC), is an improved version of WJFAC, earlier constructed by GRSE. Conceived, designed and built indigenously, the commissioning of this ship completes the addition of another chapter to the nations Make in India initiative and indigenisation efforts in the field of warship design and construction, read a government statement..

Named after a picturesque island in the Andaman group, the 320-tonne INS Tarmugli, measuring 48 meters in length, can achieve speeds in excess of 30 knots. The ship is manned by a team comprising four officers and 41 sailors with Commander Sreejith S Nair at the helm as Commanding Officer, it said.

The ship is capable of operating in shallow waters at high speeds and is equipped with enhanced fire power. Built for extended coastal and offshore surveillance and patrol the warship is fitted with advanced MTU engines, water jet propulsion and the latest communication equipment.

The ships armament consists of a 30 mm CRN 91 gun manufactured by Ordnance Factory Medak. An electronic day-night fire control system namely Stabilised Optronic Pedestal (SOP) manufactured by Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) controls the gun.

The ship is also equipped with two 12.7 mm heavy machine guns (HMG) and multiple medium machine guns, besides shoulder-launched Igla surface-to-air missiles to combat aerial threats.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 24 May 2016 09:38

Vipul wrote:INS Tarmugli joins the Indian Navy.

he Indian Navy on Monday commissioned the highly maneuverable Fast Attack Craft INS Tarmugli at the hands of Vice Admiral HCS Bisht AVSM, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Eastern Naval Command at a formal ceremony held at Naval Dockyard, Visakhapatnam.

INS Tarmugli is being based in Visakhapatnam under the Naval Officer-in-Charge (Andhra Pradesh) and would be deployed for coastal patrol and surveillance operations along the East Coast of India.

Built by M/s Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers Ltd (GRSE), INS Tarmugli is the first Follow-on Water Jet Fast Attack Craft (WJFAC), is an improved version of WJFAC, earlier constructed by GRSE. Conceived, designed and built indigenously, the commissioning of this ship completes the addition of another chapter to the nations Make in India initiative and indigenisation efforts in the field of warship design and construction, read a government statement..

Named after a picturesque island in the Andaman group, the 320-tonne INS Tarmugli, measuring 48 meters in length, can achieve speeds in excess of 30 knots. The ship is manned by a team comprising four officers and 41 sailors with Commander Sreejith S Nair at the helm as Commanding Officer, it said.

The ship is capable of operating in shallow waters at high speeds and is equipped with enhanced fire power. Built for extended coastal and offshore surveillance and patrol the warship is fitted with advanced MTU engines, water jet propulsion and the latest communication equipment.

The ships armament consists of a 30 mm CRN 91 gun manufactured by Ordnance Factory Medak. An electronic day-night fire control system namely Stabilised Optronic Pedestal (SOP) manufactured by Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) controls the gun.

The ship is also equipped with two 12.7 mm heavy machine guns (HMG) and multiple medium machine guns, besides shoulder-launched Igla surface-to-air missiles to combat aerial threats.

I think we previously had a INS Tarmugli. A few years ago it was gifted to Seychelles, many years ago.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 24 May 2016 09:49

Yup , its in service as Topaz or something. It was a trinkat class vessel.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 May 2016 19:45

BTW Python-V was never integrated on Sea Harrier. Only Derby.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dTO4ECD36hk/T ... ster-2.jpg

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 25 May 2016 00:27

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 422379.cms

Government has scrapped the long-pending Rs 1,200 crore proposal to buy heavy-weight torpedoes from a subsidiary of Italian conglomerate Finmeccanica to arm the six new Scorpene submarines.

Defence minister Manohar Parrikar has directed officials to urgently look for "an alternative" to the "Black Shark" torpedoes

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 May 2016 08:59

Interview with MOD Parrikar

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... t-2815916/

Maybe it’s difficult to ban it because, some argue, India has Scorpene submarines that need torpedoes, which come from WASS, a subsidiary of Finmeccanica.

We have refused it [WASS].

How then will you make Scorpenes functional?

I will make it functional, don’t worry about it.

Indian make?

There are other companies who can supply it… Can’t tell you for security reasons where we will get it from.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 May 2016 11:05

Regarding Scorpene's will other western torpedos like Mark 48 torpedos work, its 19ft long. Parrikar gave Govt to Govt deal hint, I am thinking these will be procured under FMS, being a NATO member I think the Scorpene's and DCN should be able to make the MArk 48 work i thier sub design. Mark 48 is compatible with U209's

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 May 2016 11:43

Rahul,Jujhar,great posts!

The problem is not size but that the Scorpenes' combat system has been integrated with the Blacksharks.It will take a lot of reworking to integrate another type.There is no scandal attached to the torpedoes which were found better than the German ones.The IN is supposedly asking for a one-time emergency buy of Blacksharks as it is the helo division that has been caught giving bribes.

When you have mega MNCs in the arms industry like BAe,Finnmecannica,United Technolgies,etc.,where do you draw the line if one of the entities is found to have broken the rules? By the same argument you can even say that the entire country should be banned because one of its arms cos was found guilty of bribing! Taking the issue to such heights would be ridiculous.

In the case of the torpedoes,the deal was vetted and finalized by the UPA-2,therefore no stigma can be attached to the NDA executing the same and since it does not involve AW. AW surely can be blacklisted ,whatever until it makes amends financially,penallties,whatever the GOI has right to.
taking a blinkered view of the same will mean that the Kalvari will scarcely be used in any ops,will be used more as a training sub, until its "fish" arrive as armed with only Exocets will make it a sitting duck for enemy subs.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 May 2016 17:03

Indian Submarine fleet in dire straits: Hold ex-defence minister AK Antony and MoD officials accountable

Brigadier Arun Bajpai (Retd)
25 May, 2016
We have come to this pathetic state thanks to former defence minister, AK Antony, who was defence minister in the the Congress regime for seven long years up to May 2014 and his babu (bureaucrats) advisors straddling all rungs of MOD.

In 1999, after Kargil war the then NDA Government of India decided to build 24 state of art conventional submarines in an ambitious submarine construction programme duly approved by then Government in India only. This programme had 30 year life span. It needs to be remembered that navy ships and submarines take long time to build. Under this project two separate production lines were required to be established.

Lo and behold since 1999 till date 17 years have gone past but not a single submarine has been inducted till date. Surely India cannot take it lightly because this amounts to playing with India's security. But who is bothered? The clueless Netas (political leaders) at the helm and equally clueless babus who advice these netas, hardly know the difference between a fishing boat and submarine. Building submarines at home is the last thing they have in mind because then there is no commission coming.

The recent AgustaWestland chopper scam, Tatra truck scam, Barrack Missile scam and so many other scams are all cases in point. Every weapon purchase deal abroad brings in 7-10 per cent commission to the netas and Babus. Some crumbs are also get thrown to the top defence people involved. And it is not just the ruling party; even the opposition gets a percentage so that they can keep their mouth shut. In other words our neta-babu combine is least bothered with national security as long as the slush money tingles in.

The six scorpene submarines, which are to be built in India under project 75 is running three years late. The first scorpene submarine is now undergoing sea trials. If all goes well it will be inducted into service by October this year.

However, our great former defence minister AK Antony had black listed so many global defence production firms that these submarines will be minus their major weapon packs like torpedoes and major guns. Mr Clean Antony played the game that he allowed loot to take place, choppergate is case in point, but, if anybody got caught then he would quickly black list the firm.

So who is the sufferer? Not the bribe takers because that money got deposited in their oversees accounts well in advance, it is the armed forces, who thanks to this neta-babu nexus, get yesterdays weapons today and that also in piece meal. Need of the hour is that people of India must take more interest in the security of the country. These weapons must be produced indigenously. Towards this end Make in India in defence is a good start.

The new defence minister Manohar Parrikar has already enhanced Indian defence exports from US$ 140 million during Antony's time to US$ 340 million this year. In next two years he has set the export target of US$ 2bn in defence. There is an urgent need to review these black listed global arms producing firms.

If in India no defence deals can go through without palms being greased what is the fault of these firms? Finally, we now must go in for CDS system in India in Higher Defence set up. In all defence purchases armed forces also must be involved.
- See more at: http://www.merinews.com/article/indian- ... RbL0i.dpuf

http://www.merinews.com/article/indian- ... 6512.shtml

Iran, India to stage joint naval drill on Fri.
News ID: 3667855 - Wed 25 May 2016
TEHRAN, May 25 (MNA) – Rear Admiral Habibollah Sayyari said the Navy will be hosting the Indian flotilla for three days and stage a joint naval exercise in the east of Strait of Hormuz on Friday.

Commander of Iran’s Army Navy, Rear Admiral Habibollah Sayyari, added that two Indian frigates alongside a helicopter will take part in a one-day exercise with Iran’s Navy warships.

“The drill is an indication of the Islamic Republic’s position in the seas,” Sayyari said. “We are holding an exercise with a country that used to have little faith in our capabilities, but today, they are fully aware of Iran’s sea power and have decided to join us in the drill.”

To Mehr News Agency question about the unveiling of new achievements by the Navy in 2016, he said “we will try to have several new additions to the Navy, such as Sahand destroyer, Fateh submarine and Moj-IV destroyer that is yet to be named.”

He went on to add that the Navy is also looking for expanding its presence in open waters all the way to the Atlantic Ocean.

In regard to purchase of equipment from Russia, he said “in the Navy, if there is any need for a particular part in order to build something, we will not hesitate to take the necessary measures for acquiring it.”

http://www.timesnow.tv/videoshow/4489531.cms

Govt cancels torpedo deal for submarines
The government has withdrawn the tender for purchase of 98 torpedos for Scorpene submarines which a subsidiary of chopper scam tainted Italian defence conglomerate Finmeccanica had won during the UPA regime. The government action by default means that Finmeccanica will not be considered for the over Rs 1,200 crore deal for which it is likely to float a fresh tender. The subsidiary of the Italian company will not be eligible for the fresh process of selection under new rules. The government might also go in for a direct purchase of torpedos given the "critical necessity" as the first submarine is slated to be handed over to the Navy by September end. "The tender for the heavy weight torpedos have been withdrawn," defence sources said adding that an alternate is being worked on.Sources said that the SeaHake torpedos from Germany's Atlas Elektronik and France's F21 torpedos are being considered which could eventually become a 'Make in India' programme as such torpedos would be needed for other submarine projects which are in the offing. Black Shark torpedoes, made by Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subacquei (WASS), a subsidiary of Finmeccanica, had emerged the lowest bidder to arm the Scorpene submarines, the first of which will be handed over to the Navy by September this year. However, the proposal to acquire it had been stuck for long. Various controversies had surrounded the deal which former Defence Minister A K Antony had not signed on.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 May 2016 18:43

I am thinking a version of varunastra customised for Kalvari class.

kit · Post by **kit** » 25 May 2016 19:18

isnt seahake in service with PN ? ..wont that make them easy to develop countermeasures ?

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 25 May 2016 21:10

LoL Iranian admirals are funny. Their navy has little to no capability. All the way to atlantic..

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 25 May 2016 21:27

Just to bring to everyone's attention that the IN operates/will soon operate 5 different types of submarines !
1. 877 class
2. U-209 HDW class
3. Scorpene class
4. Akula class
5. Arihant class

It is a zoo indeed! The only thing missing is an american, scandinavian and a japanese design.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 25 May 2016 22:06

You forget the 150 tonne Midget submarines IN is procuring. That's 6 class already without considering new SSN's and P-75I . Truly a copy of IAF zoo.

srai · Post by **srai** » 26 May 2016 03:41

^^^

Not to forget different sets of weaponry (torpedoes, missiles) as well.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 May 2016 04:44

I mean, is this haphazard procurement or what!
At least now, finances are not as big an issue as back in the 80s, and the Nau Sena can think of replacing retiring units with a mass produced 75i, which has to be an indiginous design using off the shelf components from all over.

Like assembling one's own computer, but building things at home, with Indian basic components. It'll be a big DRDO science project for sure!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 May 2016 11:08

ATV/Akula one supposes have many commonalities,as both are Russian or developed with Russian assistance. One aspect mentioned about the Chakra lease is that it would help hugely in training Indian submariners to operate N-boats. If you look at the inventories of the major navies,including their sub fleets,you will find that they operate several types.The USN: Virginia,Seawolf,Los Angeles-of diff variants,Ohios-being phased out,etc. RN: Borei,Yasen,Akula variants,Kilos,Amur/Ladas,Deltas,etc. New nuclear boats and a diesel/AIP boat are also on the cards. The PLAN: At least 6-7 types of both.

Our Scorpenes were meant to replace the U-boats,but arriving so late,requires the U-boats too to soldier on for another decade if poss with upgrades.In fact operating 3 diff types of conventional/AIP boats would be of great advantage when facing off with the PLAN/PN,as they would be hard pressed to find out to which country/navy these subs belonged to since SoKo,Indonesia,Vietnam,Malaysia also operate these types.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 26 May 2016 13:12

Gagan wrote:Just to bring to everyone's attention that the IN operates/will soon operate 5 different types of submarines !
1. 877 class
2. U-209 HDW class
3. Scorpene class
4. Akula class
5. Arihant class

It is a zoo indeed! The only thing missing is an american, scandinavian and a japanese design.

And IN also has anti ship missiles namely
1) P 20 Styx
2) Uran
3) Klub
4) Brahmos
5) Harpoon, on P8
6) Exocet, on Scorpenes

What a logistic nightmare !!!!

OT
At one time IAF had
1) MiG 21
2) MiG 23
3) MiG 25
4) MiG 27
5) MiG 29
6) Mirage 20000
7) Jaguar

SU 30K

I wonder if ANY airforce in the world had soem many types.

BTW In the USN, each carrier had
F 14 Tomcat
A 4 Skyhawk
A 6 Intruder
A 7 Corsair

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 26 May 2016 18:26

^^^ Russians, Americans and Chinese had / have more types. They are all air forces larger than us. We are 4th, IIRC. This is not to justify a menagerie.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 May 2016 18:37

Kersi not to mention E-2C Hawkeyes too.Plus various helos.
There are reports that China is sending its SSBNs on operational patrols in the Pacific due to the strangulation policy of the US and its new BM under development that ca hit any target on the globe within an hour. Though its N-arsenal is estimated at only 350+, less than the 7000+ of the US and Russia each,China is developing MIRVs for its DF-35s even though its SSBNs are noisy to offset the US advantage.This is to India's advntage as the primary target of PLAN SSBNs will be the US. This does not mean that it will lead to reduced PLAN sub patrols in the IOR.Far from it,but forces China to split its principal strat assets.Who knows,China may even compromise on the border issue to stop India from joining the US battlewagon.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 26 May 2016 20:29

This less type theory do not usually translate to less inventory/maintenance nightmare. USAF may have less type but they have many variants (Blocks) of those in services. For example some F-16 Blocks use Pratt & Whitney while later models used GE Turbofans.

In our case, since we buy OTS, we usually buy a single version and try to maintain complete inventory of similar version (even when we upgrade).

srai · Post by **srai** » 27 May 2016 02:26

Kersi D wrote:...
BTW In the USN, each carrier had
F 14 Tomcat
A 4 Skyhawk
A 6 Intruder
A 7 Corsair

That was in the 1970s

Nowadays, it is more like F/A-18 C/D/E/F/G, E-2C AEW, C-2 cargo and MH-60 helos.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 27 May 2016 08:58

srai wrote:
Kersi D wrote:...
BTW In the USN, each carrier had
F 14 Tomcat
A 4 Skyhawk
A 6 Intruder
A 7 Corsair
That was in the 1970s

Nowadays, it is more like F/A-18 C/D/E/F/G, E-2C AEW, C-2 cargo and MH-60 helos.

RIGHT

Today USN has only F 18, some / several variants.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 27 May 2016 09:36

All because none of them are imported from Russia or France. Else you'll see even U.S air force flying multiple types of aircrafts. Poor Amrika can only make that much aircrafts.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 27 May 2016 14:56

You really couldn't do with single or even two types given the conflicting mission requirements. The F-14's were your fleet defense interceptors and the mission i.e. long range interception requires specialized capability. The Hornets were your multi-role swing mission types, and the remaining were Strike and support aircraft. With standardization on the Hornet and the Super Hornet they have let go of the F-14 mission set (SH is not a capable F-14 mission set replacement) since its a low priority. Similarly the Prowler has gone out with a range/loiter penalty being absorbed for the sake of commonality with the fighter fleet by going with the Growler (plus its just an overall better aircraft for so many reasons). Going forward, the F-35 and F-18E/F/G will again comprise exclusively of Multi-Role fighters covering mission sets from one extreme (fleet defense) to support (EW, refuel for recovery etc). They had the Tomcats in Afghanistan and the USN would have been bankrupt by now had they still stuck around or they embarked on a Super Tomcat. The Shornets are putting as much as 400 (average ) hours a month with some significantly higher than that, especially those that are deployed. The operational cost alone would have sunk the F-14 enterprise. If the threat warrants it it makes sense to have a diverse fleet although advances in technology and avionics particularly have meant that you can design a lot of features into multi-role aircraft that were earlier possible only on specialized aircraft. You would still pay the penalty of a higher performing air-frame that you don't need for majority of the strike sorties but it can be done. That was the reason the USN quietly and quickly dropped the N-ATF given how much they would have to pay for performance that they wouldnt be using for 90+% of the missions they saw over the 2-3 decades out into the future.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 May 2016 15:34

there is no replacement for the S3 viking other than depending on shore based P3.

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 29 May 2016 06:13

Indian warship makes contact with Pakistani naval vessels near western coast

KOLKATA: Two warships of the Western Fleet were scrambled from Mumbai on Friday after Pakistani naval vessels were detected close to Indian territorial waters. This happened hours after the stealth frigate INS Tarkash came in contact with Pakistani warships in international waters. INS Tarkash is one of three Indian warships that called on ports in the United Arab Emirates (UAE) recently in a show of cooperation and friendship.

"The INS Delhi, INS Deepak and INS Tarkash berthed at several ports in the UAE including Dubai, Bahrain and Muscat. Meetings were also held between senior officers of the Indian and UAE navies. While the Indian ships were in the UAE, Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar also paid a visit to the Emirates and held talks with officials there. On the way back, while INS Delhi and INS Deepak headed straight for base, INS Tarkash took a slightly roundabout route. While sailing in international waters close to a fleet of Pakistani warships and was asked to back off," a source in the Navy said.

In naval parlance, this act by the INS Tarkash is called "fingering". The stealth frigate is an upgraded version of the Talwar class of ships and was commissioned in the Navy in 2012. Built in Russia, the INS Tarkash has state-of-the-art sensors and communications equipment and is BrahMos missile capable. Any country is bound to get jittery if it detects such a lethal platform close to its territorial waters. For the Navy, this is an opportunity to check on the ship's stealth and other capabilities.

"This is sort of a cat and mouse game. The Pakistani warships may have followed INS Tarkash as she headed back towards Mumbai. The Pakistani ships were picked up as they approached Indian territorial waters and the two warships set off from Mumbai to herd them off, should they get too close. All countries engage in such prowling close to the territorial waters of neighbours. We keep on getting similar contacts from Chinese warships in the Bay of Bengal," the source added.

Pakistan is certainly aware that the INS Tarkash was part of the three-ship team that visited the UAE. Good ties — both military and otherwise — with the UAE are sought after by India as well as Pakistan. While Pakistan had enjoyed good relations with the Emirates in the past, India's ties with the UAE were strengthened after Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit in 2015.

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