Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 30 May 2016 20:18

Given 12 hours, it has to be a day train as Talgo has chair car arrangement. Think this train will be better suited for Hyderabad-Chennai, Hyderabad-Bangalore kind of distances.

disha · Post by **disha** » 30 May 2016 21:24

Singha wrote:
I think it will find a lot of takers esp kids (!) if they can really run this in 12 hrs and provide a couple of decent packed and heated meals with some TV entertainment. people will eat for 2 hrs , watch TV/read for 3 hrs and sleep/look at scenery for the rest...

a section of rajdhani pax will also upgrade

Trains are bringing back "family travel". It will be actually cheaper and better to pack my entire family and my cousins family into a single coach (the kids can monkey around in their own chairs) while the adults can go into impromptu song routines* while going to another destination for a vacation!! Clean railway stations and clean toilets is the major requirement and of course clean destinations!!

PS: *Other than clean railway stations and clean toilets., adults going on impromptu song routines is the biggest deterrent. Thanks to PrabhuJi for taking care of the first two.

PPS: Such "family travel" is going to make a big comeback! I myself am planning a backpacking trip across a wide swath of India 2 years from now. With family in tow and with extended family in some parts. Combination of road/rail/air.

raj-senthil · Post by **raj-senthil** » 30 May 2016 21:47

Sorry if already posted.. Got this on whats app...

Indian Railways to change few rules from July 1

New Delhi, May 23: The Indian Railways which is one of the biggest employer of the world will come up with few changes which is applicable from July 1. The changes may benefit millions of passengers who travel on regular basis through Indian Railways. The main highlight of these changes are tatkal ticket refund and confirmed ticket facility for train passengers. Travellers, who are planning to book tickets should know these rules and regulations in advance.

Here are few of the new rules which will be implemented from July 1:

- From July 1 passengers will get refund amount of 50 percent on cancellation of tatkal tickets.
- There has been slight change made by the Indian Railways for booking tatkal tickets. From July 1, tatkal window for AC coach will be open between 10 am to 11 am and for sleeper coach the timing will be from 11 am to 12 pm.
- From July 1 the waiting list system will come to an end and tickets will be issued only for confirmed and RAC passengers accommodation. The provisions for the waiting list will be ended.
- By next month the number of coaches in Rajdhani and Shatabdi will be increased.
- From July 1, Rajdhani and Shatabdi will move ahead with paper less tickets. Only mobile tickets will be valid on these trains.
- The Indian Railways officials website IRCTC, will also start booking tickets on various language.
- Premium trains will come to an end from July 1.
- The passengers can also get 50 percent return after cancelling suvidha train tickets.
- The passengers will also get ‘wake up call destination’ facility in the trains from July 1.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 31 May 2016 06:09

If we are going to spend so much on new chi-chi trains why can't we get the engines as well. Talgo engines look great. Is there some technical problem? Somehow I don't like the idea of a modern train being pulled by what looks like a freight engine.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 31 May 2016 06:41

kmkraoind wrote:If IR chooses Talgo, they need to increase width of the coach by 6-7 inches. Right now, there is a big gap between train and platform.

Wondering who will the manufactures of Talgos in India, I wish it will be by private companies. Govt of India should make sure that Indian private companies hold 74% or 51% in that join venture. Unlike some smaller nations, Indian market is very big for Talgo, so Govt should make sure our companies get control of any joint ventures.

These coaches perhaps also tilt, if they make it wider, what you if are whizzing through a small station at 200kmph and the line is a platform line and the station is on a 1-2 degree curve, and the bogie tilts a bit, will not the bogie hit the platform? Or the bogie is very near the platform at high speeds( higher than IR speeds) at a small station and there is some oscillation effects, so understandably clearances with the platform are larger than current IR standards. I do not think Talgo wants to get into a situation like colliding with the platform on trials. Oscillation at working speeds is something they will monitor during the trials. There are umpteen stations in India where the through line also is a line that is a platform line. There will be usually be a speed advisory, a permanent one most likely for such stations. If the clearance is larger, then one can do away with the advisory and wasting time decelerating and accelerating.

The coaches are low to the ground, because that makes for lower CG and so increased stability at higher speeds.

Here is an example, Sampark Kranti skipping or rather crawling through Ratlam which is a station on Western Railway on Delhi-Mumbai route which Talgo coaches will cover:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIy5IfuLK9A

Start doing this at half a dozen station and time adds up.

In the future IR will have a dedicated 20km stretch of track at Raipur to conduct all such oscillation and speed tests for new rolling stock. This has been announced recently. Holding trials of this sort on working and heavily traveled sections only holds up trains and manages to disrupt schedules.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2016 07:38

Supratik wrote:If we are going to spend so much on new chi-chi trains why can't we get the engines as well. Talgo engines look great. Is there some technical problem? Somehow I don't like the idea of a modern train being pulled by what looks like a freight engine.

>>Talgo engines look great

and thats a valid reason? rafale also looks better than flankers imo but flankers are already paid for and indigenized and amortized across lot of inventory. and they do what the rafale does. anyway the WAP5 engines are smaller and sleeker than the WDP4 if soothing looks matter and will be used on all electrified stretches. their colour scheme already matches the white talgos. they will no doubt play a key role in the forthcoming trials of mumbai-delhi rajdhani route @ upto 180kmph.
the opportunity is increase the avg speed of the rajdhanis and shatabdis from current 90k by 50% to some 140k. for this some cruising will need to be done at 180 to account for speed limited sections (platform lines, weak bridges) and slowing and speeding up from scheduled stops.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 31 May 2016 08:54

Supratik wrote:If we are going to spend so much on new chi-chi trains why can't we get the engines as well. Talgo engines look great. Is there some technical problem? Somehow I don't like the idea of a modern train being pulled by what looks like a freight engine.

Talgo in Spain runs with similar engines too. This is how a lot of semi-high speed commuter trains look there:

This is the Russian Talgo service using the same coaches we're trialing:

IR may choose to standardize on Talgo coaches for semi-high speed trains, but I don't see them adding another loco class when they've multiple locos capable of going the job. Granted, the WDP looks ugly but I like the WAP4 and WAP5. Those electric locos look great.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 31 May 2016 09:12

The difference between the Spanish and Indian engine is a nice longer skirt covering the ugly wheels.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 31 May 2016 09:27

If I were to choose, I would say it doesn't matter how it looks on the outside as long as

1. It gets me from Point A to Point B quickly (much faster than what it takes now) and,

2. It is well maintained on the inside- clean seats, corridors and toilets/washbasins.

This is what Suresh Prabhu also mentioned in an interview- cosmetic changes are fine, but they are short term, not imminently necessary and do not add much to the system in the longer run unless accompanied by substantial infrastructure changes.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 31 May 2016 09:41

Whaaat! Khanic TFTA locos aren't good enough? These are the mighty EMDs from GE!

IR will test these rakes will all possible locos, so they will try the EMD and Alco diesels, followed by the electrics like ABB origin WAP 5, similar TFTA looking WAP7, followed by, hold your breath, the dark red SDRE origin WAP-4.

Please keep in mind that there are not enough WAP-5s to go around, so some SDRE loco like the WAP-4 and WDM-3D will ultimately complete the missions with no fanfare.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2016 09:44

>the dark red SDRE origin WAP-4.

this is the most beautiful beast of the IR electric locos. exudes size and raw power unlike the more compact WAP5 that hides its power. (112t of tallboy solid muscle vs 78t of sdre looking physique)..female heads turn as it pulls majestically into any station pulling a rajdhani with cooling fans howling...

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 31 May 2016 10:02

All aboard Talgo: 10 things to know about the high speed Talgo trains coming to India - India Today

It seems Talgo's have 2+1 arrangement, and it may carry less than 1 Volvo bus. Then, speed (time savings) and comfort (less vibrations) will be USP of Talgo. If they can deliver Chennai-Bangalore in 4-5 hours, they will become a huge hit. Even Bangalore-Anantapur-Kurnool-Mehaboobnagar-Hyderabad, Chennai-Nellore-Guntur-Vijayawada routes too can be a hit, if run in 1-hour frequency.

Now a days, tabs/phones/laptops are common, so throw a USB-C type port for every seat (for data and for power) with every train having a NAS type drive, which has tons of movies/audio for viewing.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 31 May 2016 10:08

>>If they can deliver Chennai-Bangalore in 4-5 hours, they will become a huge hit

They will be a waste then. Today's shatabdi expresses cover the distance in 4:30 or so, with a lot of slack time built in, and a max speed 110 kmph only 2/3rds of the way. Rest is only 100. Just smoothening some station layouts can easily shave off 30min with the current rolling stock. For example, MAS exit through basin bridge, Arakkonam and the long slow crawl through jolarpet.

Singha saar, completely agree. Especially the horn of the WAP4 makes no pretensions of modesty. Full brawn on display

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 31 May 2016 13:11

Singha wrote: >>Talgo engines look great

and thats a valid reason? rafale also looks better than flankers imo

Joo shut your mouth! The rambhas are saxy af!

Looks of the train matter very little. Can we run the trains a great deal faster than the current ones is the question. There is no point if it runs mas-sbc in 4 hrs. The morning shatabdi does it in 5 with a crap ton of slowdowns all over the place. Keep the toilets clean, we're already doing a decent job with the platforms and a marginal one with coaches. That'll help.

vina · Post by **vina** » 31 May 2016 13:48

Bullet Train Plan Drags India into 21st Century

I am not sure if this makes any sense at all. $16B for 500Kms of track (that sounds like the ball park of the California HSR), all elevated, etc.. with a country with a per capita income less than $1000 !.

It makes lot more sense to buy $16 billion worth of airplanes (that will be a fleet of around 125 single aisle type like an A320/B737) and for some 1000 Kms worth of HSR track, you can have good airport and city rail infra in place to serve that.

This entire HSR doesn't seem well thought out. Dedicated freight corridor is the game changer. I am not sure of this HSR business. Get in more tango rakes and run them at 200km ph after de bottlenecking makes more sense.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2016 14:40

GOI has formed a separate body to carry out surveys for HSR .
proposals
http://hsrc.in/projects.html

HSR
diamond quadrilateral
delhi-chandigarh-amritsar
delhi-chennai
mysore-blr-chennai
mumbai-ahmedabad

the mysore-blr-chennai has been surveyed by the china railways instt and declared impossible with the current twists, turns and gradients on the route. it would hence be better off laying a semi/HSR along the upcoming blr-chennai expway via kolar and chittor perhaps. the jolarpet route was probably chosen by british to tie together their military cantonments more than passenger convenience

I found this semi-HSR map here - can anyone confirm its true ?
http://www.mapsofindia.com/railways/pro ... ridors.jpg

blr-chennai flight being only 45 mins is a ripe candiate for HSR imo. I suspect delhi-chandigarh-amritsar is also viable as hordes of business/NRI/tourist types land in delhi and move by bus or train on that route. Hyderabad-warangal-Vijaywada-Chennai is surely a prime Semi-HSR route....it could come via Amravati which is near vijaywada and new capital.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 31 May 2016 16:42

What do folks think about two HSR routes in the South:

1. Trivandrum / Kochi - Coimbatore - Trichy - Chennai
2. Trivandrum / Kochi - Coimbatore - Salem - Bangalore

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 31 May 2016 17:54

Have the trainset tenders that received no bids been retendered? am finding no news of it. Wonder if both this and Talgo go through how they will mix and match. Probably Talgo for semi-high speed and the trainsets for regular premium trains.

member_26535 · Post by **member_26535** » 31 May 2016 18:24

schinnas wrote:What do folks think about two HSR routes in the South:

1. Trivandrum / Kochi - Coimbatore - Trichy - Chennai
2. Trivandrum / Kochi - Coimbatore - Salem - Bangalore

Viable in my view. Except that the first one needs to be CBE >Salem > Jolarpet > Chennai.. No ?

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 31 May 2016 18:50

Shatabdi Express on the way to BLR gets stuck for 10mins at BLR CANT awaiting clearances. Many folks (including I) have got down at CANT instead of waiting another 15-20 mins travel to BLR Main station.

Eliminating unnecessary similar longish halts will enable the train to cover the 360Km journey in less than 4 hours. Ideal travel time would be b/w 3 to 3.5 hours. Issue is maintaining consistent 100Kph speeds over long stretches.

Edit: I was under the impression that for Semi-High Speed Rail (SHSR), entire Talgo train set including the locomotives will be deployed. But it seems like currently, only the Talgo coaches are undergoing trails hauled by a WDP-4 loco. Question is, the entire train (incl locos) should have the titling tech to enable speeds of 180-200 Kph on existing track infra. The above set up won't work I guess. Even though IR/RDSO has tested WDP-4 at 180+ Kph speeds, I reckon it would be at some flat stretch with relatively less curves, just to assess the capability. Will the next phase of trails include entire train sets?

Phase-1 of Talgo trains is apparently a success: Coaches were tested at 115 Kph speeds

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2016 20:15

i dont think talgo engines or any engines can tilt

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 31 May 2016 20:25

I think the idea is that the engines are more heavy so they can counter centrifugal force better. Hence tilting not needed.

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 01 Jun 2016 01:53

kmkraoind wrote:It seems Talgo's have 2+1 arrangement, and it may carry less than 1 Volvo bus.

The Talgo trains in Russia have 2+2 seating in 2nd class and

2+1 in 1st class

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 01 Jun 2016 02:00

That's the same on RENFE Talgo trains in Spain. Perhaps the ones being trialed by IR are demo coaches in an all first class configuration.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 01 Jun 2016 02:41

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... QE.twitter

High speed rail:Germany to study Chennai-Bangalore-Mysore

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 01 Jun 2016 02:56

Train sets have been re-tendered. The 5 shortlisted manufacturers dropped out in the first attempt as they perceived the orders as being small.

http://www.railnews.co.in/process-of-re ... way-board/

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 01 Jun 2016 03:26

Karthik S wrote:http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... QE.twitter

High speed rail:Germany to study Chennai-Bangalore-Mysore

Loss of face for the Chinese if the Germans find a way to upgrade this line...?

I still think IR should try to get a few (low hanging) things before talking about 200 kmph. It's a good goal to have, but at the interim, the tracks could use upgrades to 130 at least. If not, just straighten the loops through AJJ with 110kmph run through facility (save 10 mins), upgrade JTJ approach for pickup right after exiting the station, along with run through at either 110 for through trains like the Shatabdis, or 60 for Bangalore bound ones using 1:16 turnouts (save 10 min), quicker dispatch from MAS home signal - why the heck is there a permanent speed restriction of 30kmph right from Central through Basin bridge and the junction at Vyasarpadi? Considering the latter junction is designed to let MAS bound trains exit/enter quickly, why not try to upgrade them to 1:16 turnouts and allow for higher pickup right after the BBQ yard? This will shave off another 10 mins, at least, especially from the 24 coach heavies going all over the south. Also completing the quad tracks up to AJJ will eliminate the slowdown near Tiruvallur for switching from fast to slow tracks. I am not even talking about the 5th and 6th lines at BBQ to handle suburban traffic, which will decongest this area significantly.

There you have it: 30 min reduction for the Bangalore shatabdi expresses, without touching the engineering slack provided in the time table, nor increasing the max speed. I am assuming the lines beyond JTJ toward Bangalore cannot be upgraded, though Kuppam and Bangarapet can use some similar improvements.

The above will help the non-shatabdi trains like the Brindavan-Lalbagh-Intercity troika even more since they are much longer and heavier. And the double decker could be run like a Shatabdi providing another fast alternative, considering it has the 160 capable all-AC config just like the former. It's running at Brindavan speeds only to absorb the extra rush from the latter.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 01 Jun 2016 03:34

Arshyam: I believe the 4th line to AJJ is recently commissioned. They could try making an elevated track like Metro
through Jolarpet town and connect with Bangalore line, and eliminate the massive 180 degree curve after JTJ, start the elevated tracks way before JTJ , that is. This is a while back, so I think fourth line AJJ is ready or close to ready.

http://www.sr.indianrailways.gov.in/vie ... 0F68.web91

http://www.sr.indianrailways.gov.in//vi ... 0EA.web103

That was the missing section, rest is already 4 lined.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 01 Jun 2016 05:15

Thanks for the update saar, looks like I missed that. So that makes the entire MAS AJJ stretch 4 lined ( though when I travelled this stretch in Nov last, the 4th line stopped at Puliyamangalam, the last station before AJJ, not sure why). Anyway, if those new suburban platforms at the southern side of AJJ are commissioned, then the full 70 80 km stretch will have dedicated tracks for suburban services, giving a fillip to development in these parts. Of course, lesser congestion for long distance and goods trains on the fast line. Nice.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jun 2016 07:58

the train engines have their traction motors mounted quite low and hence CG will be low as well and 70-100t weight.
if we look inside the upper part of a WDG4, most of it seems to be empty space , with perhaps only the diesel engine occupying half the volume available. have not got chance to look inside a WAP as it does not have the kind of breezy grills the diesels have

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jun 2016 08:01

btw are all our current WDG production now dual cab ?

https://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1 ... _webp=true

what is the reason why a meager 200 WAP5 have been manufactured since 1999 ? high cost ? or WAP4 is much cheaper and gets the job done ? even WAP7 number is very small.

in contrast 1000s of WDP/WDG engines have been produced.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jun 2016 08:06

I take it back about the diesels being a empty shell up top..albeit inside the grilled area in front there is empty space, rest seems like plenty of meat on the bone

vina · Post by **vina** » 01 Jun 2016 09:02

what is the reason why a meager 200 WAP5 have been manufactured since 1999 ? high cost ? or WAP4 is much cheaper and gets the job done ? even WAP7 number is very small.

They seem to have built some 700 WAG-9 . My guess is that the bulk of the high power (> 6000 hp) electric locos are mostly meant for heavy freight operations.

IRFCA shows they made 1196 WAG5 , and only some 101 WAP5. WAP-7 they have 280 and WAG-7 1970! and for WAG-9 they have 754 locos.

The WAP4 is the workhorse and hauls most trains I would guess. The high power ones are probably for hauling extra long "prestigious and fas" long distance trains or where terrain has high gradients like Bangalore-Madras.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 01 Jun 2016 11:27

Regarding Talgo coaches, IR broad guage is 1.676 meters compared to 1.35 meters worldwide, so IR coaches will have 5 seats side by side.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jun 2016 12:32

its news to me that china uses 1.43m gauge...our 25 coach trains each @ around 55 tons + 100t engine must be the heaviest passenger trains in the world.

but by investing around $1.5-$2 trillion over 20 years they have now 2x the track km and move 10 times the freight.

vina · Post by **vina** » 01 Jun 2016 14:04

Aditya_V wrote:Regarding Talgo coaches, IR broad guage is 1.676 meters compared to 1.35 meters worldwide, so IR coaches will have 5 seats side by side.

The iberian /spanish gauge are the same as the Indian broad gauge (5 1/2 ft) . The Talgo coaches that run in Spain will be a direct fit without any modifications. What you get in spain is probably what you will get here as well (okay, they could reduce the width of the seats and squeeze more in).

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 01 Jun 2016 14:19

What is that yellow/orange substance between cement mold and tunnel shaft? TIA.

Daily Mail Online @MailOnline

World's longest rail tunnel under the Swiss Alps opens on schedule dailym.ai/1O4r7qe pic.twitter.com/0D2FztR8WA

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 01 Jun 2016 16:43

Aditya_V wrote:Regarding Talgo coaches, IR broad guage is 1.676 meters compared to 1.35 meters worldwide, so IR coaches will have 5 seats side by side.

IIRC, Talgo coaches can be adjusted for different gauges, hence there won't be any modification inside the cabin.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jun 2016 16:57

Does the original Talgo engine also tilt?
If it does, then IR will be doing a disservice by putting non-tilting desi engines on the talgo coaches!

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 01 Jun 2016 18:25

View from a Drone of Progress along the Western Dedicated Freight Corridor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVyOCro ... e=youtu.be

IR alignment is seen on the right. This will be the same till Maheshana(Gujarat) when DFCC will cross over to the right and remain on the right as DFCC swings around Western Ahmedabad city(Sanand) and southwest of Vadodara, then crosses IR alignment near Surat and again runs to the left of IR alignment till Vaitarna. Such massive yards are seen on the right at Daud Khan( near Aligarh), Maitha( near Kanpur) and Bhagan( near Firozabad/Tundla) on EDFC between Khurja and Kanpur. Next time sit on the right of the Lucknow shatabdi while going to Kanpur and you will catch the action. The Harsco track laying machines are seen on the right in the video. The gantries are to load the sleepers/railroad ties onto the wagons as they pull up below them. Also note the 250m long rails. This is a first in India. Also the 1:16 turnouts are clearly seen.

kmkraoind: That is a bistable composite liner around the tunnel, sort of what they use in landfills to prevent seepage. I suppose one does grouting and then applies such a liner.