IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
member_29190
BRFite
Posts: 103
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_29190 » 01 Jun 2016 22:46

This was something I had suggested earlier when the news about of IAF will not wait for MK2.

We should drop the plans to create a LCA MK2 even for navy, but continue the test with NLCA

The next jet be should be risk reducing AMCA MK1 first for Navy then for IAF. It should be double engined, maximum commonality with LCA, internal bays with decent stealth targetting for 2024-2025, about the same time when LCA MK2 is planned for production. A double engined LCA with internal bays(if navy is happy).

sort of Mirage 4k from Mirage 2k

A stepping stone and risk reduction programe for utilmate AMCA MK2.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4546
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby srai » 02 Jun 2016 02:53

Bhaskar_T wrote:...
However, when I was suggesting the possibility of HAL-Saab JV setup, I wasn't hinting to replace Tejas Mk1/Mk1A orders with Gripen orders or to stop learning the know-how of making fighters. IAF wanted 14 MIG squadrons to be replaced yesterday and thankfully HAL (better late than never) has come up with Tejas Mk1 (&Mk1A shortly). Accordingly an order of 7-8 squadrons (40Mk1?+120Mk1A?) has been promised by IAF and a very optimistic view is that these 7-8 squadrons will be delivered by 2026 (16/year for 10 years from 2017 to end 2026). Hence, there is still shortage of 6-7 squadrons for MIG replacements & these replacements are needed now (or in very near future) & am contesting that why we should not aim for replacing these 6-7 squadrons with Gripen. Since Mk-2 was desired by IAF over Mk-1, I assume here that all the ~280-300 MIG replacements cannot be by Mk1A because a more powerful single engine fighter is required. (side note that these wont be replaced by Su30MKI, Mig-29 or old Mirage-2000's available elsewhere possibly)

I am not fully aware of how different or superior the Tejas-Mk2 and latest Gripen (Gripen-E) are in terms of features, but the fact of the matter is that Gripen-NG/E flies today and Tejas-Mk2 doesn't (not even a prototype). I doubt if the final design aspects of the Tejas-Mk2 are frozen. There is no real Mk2 news anymore from HAL/ADA, infact GE-F414-IN is not to be ready to be delivered to India before end of this year. Most of the focus is on Tejas Mk1A. This explains why Raksha Mantri ji Parrikar thinks of a second-production line either to complement 36-Rafales or to complement the shortage of MIG replacements or BOTH.

A short summary (based on a link, which comes in the next post), Gripen has similar thrust (98KN), gets engine from Khan America as Tejas Mk2 is planned; Gripen has similar hard points (or more 10? than 8 of Mk2), AESA radar, similar avionics and flying characteristics. Gripen having IRST, Mk2 is not planned (can be developed in due course though). Brazil finalized 36 Gripen-NG fighters for 4.7 Billion Usd, i.e. 130 MMUsd per fighter - indeed about double expensive than Mk2 might ~ 50-60 MMUsd (Mk1 costs 30 MMUsd?). Saab has promised Brazil to deliver 36 Gripens between 2019-2024.

So, basically, in a HAL-Saab JV-Setup, with indigenous production (MII) in India, somewhat expensive (say, 80 MMUsd), India can very well replace the capacity loss being faced without developing a similar aircraft, Mk2. Contractually, development wise, India is likely to have an upper-hand while having freedom of putting our own AESA radar (Uttam) OR upgrading for MLU's/own weapons. It is likely more possible that by the time 7-8 squadrons of Mk1/Mk1A by 2026 are delivered by HAL (16/year), the HAL-Saab JV setup would have already delivered 6-7 squadrons of Gripen to IAF. This enables, IAF to have the adequate replacements (10 years late already) and a good insurance policy should Mk2 is delayed further. This also helps, HAL-ADA-IAF to simply focus on the AMCA beast, complemented by Saab. Since, India will remain as super force driving AMCA development, Saab will only remain as light partner. (India is to Russia while Saab is to India, PAKFA analogy). (For Navy, something else can be planned).
...


Reminds me of that mythical story of Vaman, one of Vishnu's avatar ;) ... give them an inch and they will end up taking more than just an inch.

Image


Bhaskar_T wrote:...
PS - While disagreeing to anti-Gripen, kindly do suggest solutions such as ramping Tejas Mk1A to 32/year & asking IAF to accept rather light single engine fighter such as Mk1A.


Here's your answer:

Local production of US F 16 & F/A 18 not attractive: HAL Chairman Suvarna Raju
...
Do you think the recent US offer for the production of F 16 and F/A 18 fighters in India are viable?

Neither aircraft could win the (air force's) medium multirole combat aircraft ( MMRCA) competition. So I really don't know. It is not very attractive and I sincerely don't know how serious they are. The F 16 production has stopped and I am sure a parallel line for the F/A 18 won't be worth it. There are reports that the fighters are being considered as we may have a gap of 200 aircraft of the LCA class by 2021. If this is true, the gap can be filled up by increasing production rate of LCA. In the new defence procurement policy, an Indian designed and manufactured system has top priority which the LCA fits into and the others don't.

How involved will the private sector be in the production of the LCA aircraft in India?

The first 20 aircraft will be completed by 2018, by when we have to make a Mk 1A version of the aircraft. We are ramping up production to 16 aircraft a year. We have recently issued request for quotations to the private players to supply modules like fuselage parts and wings. If we can get this from the private sector, we can increase production to 25 aircraft a year. So, we are looking for capacity augmentation with these private players. We are looking at a concept in which HAL is an integrator that has some 20% (of total) work in the hangers. The remaining 80% of work can be off loaded to the industry. If a private company for example is setting up a shop for composites manufacturing, it will be assured for business for many years.
...

uddu
BRFite
Posts: 1861
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 17:09

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby uddu » 02 Jun 2016 07:25

Do feel that the import of fighter aircraft can now be closed for ever. Whatever we need, we make it here. For the time being Tejas MK1 and MK1A + Su-30 MKI to take care of the numbers and then once MK-II with better range and aerodynamics will fill the gap of Rafale type of aircraft with better range followed by our own AMCA. Then why import at all is the big question mark?

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4284
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 02 Jun 2016 08:52

Yes it almost seems as though they are looking for an import out of sheer habit and loss of ability to act in any other way. Like a person who has been on crutches for long has suddenly found two fully capable legs but is unsure what to do our use them...

Import lobby is insisting that crutches from phoren with shiny led lights and light weight carbon fibre components is better than new found legs....others like parrikar are assessing the situation and keeping all options open with hope that legs will work well after initial rehab. Still others like MOD babus and cong have no idea what to do and have called in crutch vendors of all types including those that are suitable for altogether different species..hence the mrca circus. IAF is in similar state and therefore sometimes shows preference for rafLe and at other times says a different crutch too will work. Says time is running out but is willing to wait it out as well...

ADA is the scientific team that has grown the leg, HAL is the production agency which had no idea what to do with the leg...

Actually iaf is more like Samuel Jackson, "mophuckers give me something to kick ass with while I look at that damn fine cybernetic crutch from france"

Pardon the analogy...

Kersi D
BRFite
Posts: 1383
Joined: 20 Sep 2000 11:31

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Kersi D » 02 Jun 2016 09:05

shiv wrote:
ldev wrote:MP may be personally clean, but if he surrounded by a cabal of corrupt bureaucrats & ex-servicemen who are import agents, he is fighting an uphill battle.

...... if we claim that Antony was corrupt - the picture we get is of clean babudom and corrupt minister. But it is more likely that he was clean (as Parikkar said) but ineffective because the system of defence procurement has access to lakhs of crores and there are multiple people in government making money.



Was A K Anthony merely ineffective or was a he turning a blind eye, on the orders of the High Command ? AKA is know to be a "Family" man !!!!

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20608
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 02 Jun 2016 10:16

V.interesting words from the HAL C'man. V.sensible too.F-16/18s are old in the tooth,not worth acquiring -at easily double the cost of a single LCA,when all we need to do is to ramp up LCA production.Good idea to offload some of the work to pvt. industry for faster production.16 a yr. is a god figure,24 even better.Another prod line would be ideal which could then take up work on the AMCA/whatever.

I had a long time ago proposed a stealth version of the LCA,which would save time and money instead of a fully new AMCA project which would take at least 15 yrs to arrive given our track record.We could even try out the EJ TVC engine for the same.A light stealth fighter would have a huge market abroad for smaller friendly nations as well. The gains of the LCA programme should be exploited to the maximum.Look how the MIG-21s,F-16s,F-18s have all been successively upgraded since inception.

Bhaskar_T
BRFite
Posts: 274
Joined: 13 Feb 2011 19:09

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Bhaskar_T » 02 Jun 2016 13:02

No, this is not the answer. This is because HAL Chairman Suvarna Raju ji is responding that MMRCA candidate of F-16/F-18 is not suitable because they can be replaced by LCA. Has MMRCA ever seriously been looked upon to be replaced by LCA? :)

The historical/current discussions have always been that 90 Medium Fighters (126-possible 36 Rafales) are not being looked to be replaced by LCA. LCA has always been considered to replace the 14 MIG squadrons. Apologies that my post "Why-Not-Gripen vs Forget-Tejas Mk2-ForIAF" should have been posted in LCA dhaaga, since Gripen in this thread is normally is considered a MMRCA candidate.

srai wrote:
Bhaskar_T wrote:...
However, when I was suggesting the possibility of HAL-Saab JV setup, I wasn't hinting to replace Tejas Mk1/Mk1A orders with Gripen orders or to stop learning the know-how of making fighters. IAF wanted 14 MIG squadrons to be replaced yesterday and thankfully HAL (better late than never) has come up with Tejas Mk1 (&Mk1A shortly). Accordingly an order of 7-8 squadrons (40Mk1?+120Mk1A?) has been promised by IAF and a very optimistic view is that these 7-8 squadrons will be delivered by 2026 (16/year for 10 years from 2017 to end 2026). Hence, there is still shortage of 6-7 squadrons for MIG replacements & these replacements are needed now (or in very near future) & am contesting that why we should not aim for replacing these 6-7 squadrons with Gripen. Since Mk-2 was desired by IAF over Mk-1, I assume here that all the ~280-300 MIG replacements cannot be by Mk1A because a more powerful single engine fighter is required. (side note that these wont be replaced by Su30MKI, Mig-29 or old Mirage-2000's available elsewhere possibly)

I am not fully aware of how different or superior the Tejas-Mk2 and latest Gripen (Gripen-E) are in terms of features, but the fact of the matter is that Gripen-NG/E flies today and Tejas-Mk2 doesn't (not even a prototype). I doubt if the final design aspects of the Tejas-Mk2 are frozen. There is no real Mk2 news anymore from HAL/ADA, infact GE-F414-IN is not to be ready to be delivered to India before end of this year. Most of the focus is on Tejas Mk1A. This explains why Raksha Mantri ji Parrikar thinks of a second-production line either to complement 36-Rafales or to complement the shortage of MIG replacements or BOTH.

A short summary (based on a link, which comes in the next post), Gripen has similar thrust (98KN), gets engine from Khan America as Tejas Mk2 is planned; Gripen has similar hard points (or more 10? than 8 of Mk2), AESA radar, similar avionics and flying characteristics. Gripen having IRST, Mk2 is not planned (can be developed in due course though). Brazil finalized 36 Gripen-NG fighters for 4.7 Billion Usd, i.e. 130 MMUsd per fighter - indeed about double expensive than Mk2 might ~ 50-60 MMUsd (Mk1 costs 30 MMUsd?). Saab has promised Brazil to deliver 36 Gripens between 2019-2024.

So, basically, in a HAL-Saab JV-Setup, with indigenous production (MII) in India, somewhat expensive (say, 80 MMUsd), India can very well replace the capacity loss being faced without developing a similar aircraft, Mk2. Contractually, development wise, India is likely to have an upper-hand while having freedom of putting our own AESA radar (Uttam) OR upgrading for MLU's/own weapons. It is likely more possible that by the time 7-8 squadrons of Mk1/Mk1A by 2026 are delivered by HAL (16/year), the HAL-Saab JV setup would have already delivered 6-7 squadrons of Gripen to IAF. This enables, IAF to have the adequate replacements (10 years late already) and a good insurance policy should Mk2 is delayed further. This also helps, HAL-ADA-IAF to simply focus on the AMCA beast, complemented by Saab. Since, India will remain as super force driving AMCA development, Saab will only remain as light partner. (India is to Russia while Saab is to India, PAKFA analogy). (For Navy, something else can be planned).
...


Reminds me of that mythical story of Vaman, one of Vishnu's avatar ;) ... give them an inch and they will end up taking more than just an inch.


Bhaskar_T wrote:...
PS - While disagreeing to anti-Gripen, kindly do suggest solutions such as ramping Tejas Mk1A to 32/year & asking IAF to accept rather light single engine fighter such as Mk1A.


Here's your answer:

Local production of US F 16 & F/A 18 not attractive: HAL Chairman Suvarna Raju
...
Do you think the recent US offer for the production of F 16 and F/A 18 fighters in India are viable?

Neither aircraft could win the (air force's) medium multirole combat aircraft ( MMRCA) competition. So I really don't know. It is not very attractive and I sincerely don't know how serious they are. The F 16 production has stopped and I am sure a parallel line for the F/A 18 won't be worth it. There are reports that the fighters are being considered as we may have a gap of 200 aircraft of the LCA class by 2021. If this is true, the gap can be filled up by increasing production rate of LCA. In the new defence procurement policy, an Indian designed and manufactured system has top priority which the LCA fits into and the others don't.

How involved will the private sector be in the production of the LCA aircraft in India?

The first 20 aircraft will be completed by 2018, by when we have to make a Mk 1A version of the aircraft. We are ramping up production to 16 aircraft a year. We have recently issued request for quotations to the private players to supply modules like fuselage parts and wings. If we can get this from the private sector, we can increase production to 25 aircraft a year. So, we are looking for capacity augmentation with these private players. We are looking at a concept in which HAL is an integrator that has some 20% (of total) work in the hangers. The remaining 80% of work can be off loaded to the industry. If a private company for example is setting up a shop for composites manufacturing, it will be assured for business for many years.
...

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4546
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby srai » 02 Jun 2016 13:28

^^^

I know you want your Gripen :mrgreen:

Anyways, even DM has not said anything regarding MMRCA as being Gripen (or others). He instead talks about FGFA for that deep penetration role. Check out his interview.



@18:00

On that question of Rafale/MMRCA, DM's reply starts off with co-development of FGFA, which is moving to the second phase and says that it will be ready for induction in 7-8 years time. So it would seem that "twin-engine" & "deep penetration" requirement will be fulfiled by FGFA and not by another 4th-Gen airframe. According to him, 36 Rafales, along with ongoing Su-30MKI and LCA production and modernization of Jaguars and Mirage-2000s, will provide immediate and sufficient relief towards dwindling squadron strength for the next few years.

-- from my old post


Take the above plus below article and you can piece together his thinking. Single-engine will most likely be more of LCA variant (unless there are unforeseen issues that kill it or delay it significantly). Twin-engine deep penetration fighter will likely be FGFA along with 36 Rafales. Su-30MKI already fulfills that role adequately as of now.

Tejas to replace MiG as key fighter
Published on May 29, 2016

NEW DELHI, May 28: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said the indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas would be the mainstay of the Indian Air Force and would likely replace the entire MIG-21 fleet of almost 250 fighters.

The Minister’s statement is significant given the recent noises emanating from the Ministry, hinting at the possibility of another single-engine fighter being considered to make up for the shortfall of fighters. In the past, the IAF had been reluctant to fully back the domestic Tejas programme.

“LCA is mainstay. There will be seven squadrons of it. It is 3-4 times better than MiG-21s,” he told The Hindu on Thursday giving an overview of the IAF modernisation plans.

About 250 MiG-21s were in service, most of which would be phased out in the next 10-15 years, Mr. Parrikar said, adding that they would be “replaced by the LCA and another single-engine fighter.”

Asked if another single-engine fighter was under consideration, he declined to confirm.

“We may consider. I have not said we are looking. Tomorrow we may decide to have everything from Tejas. The second version of Tejas, which is an improved version, is coming into production after the first two squadrons,” he said.

Mirage and Jaguar upgrade programmes were currently under way which, Parrikar said, would add 10-30 years to their life.

“In five to six years, we should start getting new double-engine fighters, not Rafales only,” he stated. :eek:

The improved version of LCA referred to as Mk-1A with four major improvements over the Mk-1 variant has been offered by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) as an interim measure in view of the delay in LCA-MK2.

Parrikar said the third squadron with 1A would be a highly improved version, which was under trials. “Those special additives are under trial like firing a Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile etc,” he said.

However, the LCA being a single-engine, light-weight fighter, it has its limitations, which is why another twin-engine fighter would be needed other than the Rafale, Parrikar stated.

“Functionally, the LCA is better than many other foreign fighters. It reacts very smoothly, fly-by-wire, its turn radius is very good, manoeuvrability is very good but it has limitation in the sense that it is a light combatant… It cannot go into deep penetration… It is mostly good for dogfights in your own sky or to degrade the opponent Army’s command posts,” Parrikar observed and added that “we need more twin-engine fighters for deep penetration.”

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20608
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 02 Jun 2016 13:56

The only other double-engined fighter under acquisition is the MKI.I don't know whether Russian std. FGFS are on the list.This may be possible if the deal is sealed later this year.2 sqds of Ru std and built in India ones to our reqs. From the various statements ,DM,HAL CM,the Yanqui birds are out of the reckoning. Acquiring the Typhoon after the Rafale would be an absurdity. Only other med sized twin-engined bird is another Ru one,the MIG-29/35. MKIs,LCAs,Rafales,FGFAs (future) appear to be adequate types for the IAF,which will also have upgraded legacy MIG-29s,M2Ks,and Jags in significant number.

Media report had a titbit about the "biker" connection (RV) in arms deals,with the agent whose name is all over the media possibly having something to do with the M2K upgrades. I've always put a big Q mark about this deal.Approx $60+M for just one upgrade.ridiculous,when a MIG-29 upgrade with new engines,avionics,radar,etc is costing us just $15M+! Even if the cost was double that of a MIG,it still leaves a huge $30M figure to account for.Perhaps someone is reading what we are saying on BRF in the MOD.

However,if evidence is found of skullduggery with the M2K upgrade,then going by the Finnmecannica rules,Dassault should also be banned and one can kiss the backside of the Rafale,"au revoir"!

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11207
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Gagan » 03 Jun 2016 02:27

^^^
Maybe that is why Dassault is unwilling to put money upfront. If that theory is correct, then Dassault knows that CONgress I was given ghoos. And BJP/MP/Modi may well bring it up and they may lose their deposit onlee.

The two lines may well be
1. FGFA
2. LCA

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19437
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 04 Jun 2016 19:39

Again, please provide the solid rationale for which a foreign firm will create a competitor to its own product, i.e. LCA Mk2 and why an Indian Mk2 is not preferable to some imported screw driver assembly of SAAB NG or whatever.

One can keep making sales pitches for Gripen, but the facts are that India is going ahead with NLCA Mk2 and nothing suggests that it can't be adapted for the IAF if need be.

Bhaskar_T wrote:Srai, Fanne and KaranM - I am fully with you while suggesting that foreign imports should be minimal (zero possibly) primarily for 3 reasons a) India self-reliant for production, upgrades b) Helps in maturing Indian aviation military complex c) More jobs in Swadesh, cheaper aircraft, our money gets spent in Swadesh.

However, when I was suggesting the possibility of HAL-Saab JV setup, I wasn't hinting to replace Tejas Mk1/Mk1A orders with Gripen orders or to stop learning the know-how of making fighters. IAF wanted 14 MIG squadrons to be replaced yesterday and thankfully HAL (better late than never) has come up with Tejas Mk1 (&Mk1A shortly). Accordingly an order of 7-8 squadrons (40Mk1?+120Mk1A?) has been promised by IAF and a very optimistic view is that these 7-8 squadrons will be delivered by 2026 (16/year for 10 years from 2017 to end 2026). Hence, there is still shortage of 6-7 squadrons for MIG replacements & these replacements are needed now (or in very near future) & am contesting that why we should not aim for replacing these 6-7 squadrons with Gripen. Since Mk-2 was desired by IAF over Mk-1, I assume here that all the ~280-300 MIG replacements cannot be by Mk1A because a more powerful single engine fighter is required. (side note that these wont be replaced by Su30MKI, Mig-29 or old Mirage-2000's available elsewhere possibly)

I am not fully aware of how different or superior the Tejas-Mk2 and latest Gripen (Gripen-E) are in terms of features, but the fact of the matter is that Gripen-NG/E flies today and Tejas-Mk2 doesn't (not even a prototype). I doubt if the final design aspects of the Tejas-Mk2 are frozen. There is no real Mk2 news anymore from HAL/ADA, infact GE-F414-IN is not to be ready to be delivered to India before end of this year. Most of the focus is on Tejas Mk1A. This explains why Raksha Mantri ji Parrikar thinks of a second-production line either to complement 36-Rafales or to complement the shortage of MIG replacements or BOTH.

A short summary (based on a link, which comes in the next post), Gripen has similar thrust (98KN), gets engine from Khan America as Tejas Mk2 is planned; Gripen has similar hard points (or more 10? than 8 of Mk2), AESA radar, similar avionics and flying characteristics. Gripen having IRST, Mk2 is not planned (can be developed in due course though). Brazil finalized 36 Gripen-NG fighters for 4.7 Billion Usd, i.e. 130 MMUsd per fighter - indeed about double expensive than Mk2 might ~ 50-60 MMUsd (Mk1 costs 30 MMUsd?). Saab has promised Brazil to deliver 36 Gripens between 2019-2024.

So, basically, in a HAL-Saab JV-Setup, with indigenous production (MII) in India, somewhat expensive (say, 80 MMUsd), India can very well replace the capacity loss being faced without developing a similar aircraft, Mk2. Contractually, development wise, India is likely to have an upper-hand while having freedom of putting our own AESA radar (Uttam) OR upgrading for MLU's/own weapons. It is likely more possible that by the time 7-8 squadrons of Mk1/Mk1A by 2026 are delivered by HAL (16/year), the HAL-Saab JV setup would have already delivered 6-7 squadrons of Gripen to IAF. This enables, IAF to have the adequate replacements (10 years late already) and a good insurance policy should Mk2 is delayed further. This also helps, HAL-ADA-IAF to simply focus on the AMCA beast, complemented by Saab. Since, India will remain as super force driving AMCA development, Saab will only remain as light partner. (India is to Russia while Saab is to India, PAKFA analogy). (For Navy, something else can be planned).

So, other than spending little more money, but getting delivery on time, why such a JV set-up is so horribly wrong? (7 squadrons, 7 X 18 = 126, 126 X 80 = 10 Billion Usd)
PS - While disagreeing to anti-Gripen, kindly do suggest solutions such as ramping Tejas Mk1A to 32/year & asking IAF to accept rather light single engine fighter such as Mk1A.

Bhaskar_T
BRFite
Posts: 274
Joined: 13 Feb 2011 19:09

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Bhaskar_T » 04 Jun 2016 20:28

Wonder if India is only importing 36 Rafales, all these 36 will come built-up what would TAAL do as far as structural assemblies are considered.

PS - Such a low-cap company TAAL may return good investments, if one invests in its stock. Fortunes depend on how much work is given by Dassault. TAAL is also associated with Rustam (DRDO). Stock is trading at low ~ 40 INR.


Indo-French aircraft deal may benefit TAAL, says company CEO, 3rd June 2016

http://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/indo-french-aircraft-deal-may-benefit-taal-says-company-ceo-116060301177_1.html

Taneja Aerospace Aviation Ltd (TAAL) expects to benefit if India and France strike the proposed deal to bring in Dassault Rafale aircraft to the country, as the company has been successfully evaluated by the aircraft manufacturer, a senior management official of TAAL said.

Speaking to reporters on the sidelines of a conference on defence manufacturing technologies, organised by the Tamil Nadu Technology Development & Promotion Centre of CII, Sudhir Kumar, CEO, TAAL said, "If the French aircraft Dassault Rafale comes we are likely to get some business because Dassault Aviation may give some work. They have already evaluated us and they have finding that we can work for them."

According to reports, both the countries are in talks for a proposed $8.9 billion contract for purchase of fourth-generation Dassault Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force.

At present, TAAL is indirectly handling some works for Rafale, through an Israel-based armament company, under which it supplies certain structural assemblies and pressurised containers to the company in Israel.

TAAL, started with manufacturing of aircraft and the structural assemblies for Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre (VSSC) and Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro) for its space launch vehicles, also works projects for Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd and Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO).

It is also associated with Rustom-2, an unmanned combat air vehicle developed by DRDO, which is likely to fly shortly. It has been working in two Base Repair Depots (BRDs) of Indian Air Force, where the overhauling of aircraft takes place. Currently, it is working in two such Depots -- in Kanpur and Nasik.

Last year, the company posted a turnover of around Rs 56-57 crore. He said that the company see opportunity in offset activities by overseas firms in India and continuously engage with the foreign players for such activities.


Bhaskar_T
BRFite
Posts: 274
Joined: 13 Feb 2011 19:09

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Bhaskar_T » 06 Jun 2016 19:47

ACM Arup Raha to embark on a 5 day visit to Sweden from tomorrow.

PS - Pilatus or Gripen? LCA ride/HTT-40 first flight just a week ago to this visit. Are these dots remotely connected?


Air Chief Marshal Raha to visit Sweden, 6th June 2016.

http://www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/air-chief-marshal-raha-to-visit-sweden-116060601181_1.html

Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha will embark on a five-day visit to Sweden, starting tomorrow, to take the existing defence cooperation between the armed forces of the two countries to the next level.

During his stay at Sweden, from June 7 to 11, the Chief of the Air Staff (CAS) will be calling on the Swedish Defence Minister Peter Hultqvist and is scheduled to hold bilateral discussion with the Supreme Commander of Swedish Armed Forces and the Chiefs of Staff of Army, Navy and Air Force.

The challenges faced by the Defence Forces of both the countries in the current world scenario, is expected to be discussed during these meetings.

The CAS will also be visiting a flying base of the Swedish Air Force and the production facilities of SAAB, Swedish aerospace and defence company, at Linkoping where Gripen aircraft are manufactured.

The visit assumes greater significance as it is taking place after the Swedish PM Stefan Lofvens February 2016 visit to India to attend the Def Expo-2016 held at Goa.

The Prime Ministers of both India and Sweden had also identified defence as one of the key areas of cooperation between the two countries during the visit


PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1927
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby PratikDas » 06 Jun 2016 21:22

Pilatus is Swiss, not Swedish.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3846
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby kit » 06 Jun 2016 23:42

Bhaskar_T wrote:ACM Arup Raha to embark on a 5 day visit to Sweden from tomorrow.

PS - Pilatus or Gripen? LCA ride/HTT-40 first flight just a week ago to this visit. Are these dots remotely connected?


Air Chief Marshal Raha to visit Sweden, 6th June 2016.

http://www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/air-chief-marshal-raha-to-visit-sweden-116060601181_1.html

Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha will embark on a five-day visit to Sweden, starting tomorrow, to take the existing defence cooperation between the armed forces of the two countries to the next level.

During his stay at Sweden, from June 7 to 11, the Chief of the Air Staff (CAS) will be calling on the Swedish Defence Minister Peter Hultqvist and is scheduled to hold bilateral discussion with the Supreme Commander of Swedish Armed Forces and the Chiefs of Staff of Army, Navy and Air Force.

The challenges faced by the Defence Forces of both the countries in the current world scenario, is expected to be discussed during these meetings.

The CAS will also be visiting a flying base of the Swedish Air Force and the production facilities of SAAB, Swedish aerospace and defence company, at Linkoping where Gripen aircraft are manufactured.

The visit assumes greater significance as it is taking place after the Swedish PM Stefan Lofvens February 2016 visit to India to attend the Def Expo-2016 held at Goa.

The Prime Ministers of both India and Sweden had also identified defence as one of the key areas of cooperation between the two countries during the visit



The LCA 2 / Gripen NG version for the second line ? .. the swedes are probably ok with a deeper transfer of tech than the french who are getting multiple billions

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8590
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby brar_w » 07 Jun 2016 00:05

The Engine, radar, IRST, and the MAWS along with virtually all weapons have been designed, produced or otherwise controlled by an entity outside of Sweden. It would be tough for them to collectively negotiate a better transfer of technology unless a massive order is negotiated that could potentially threaten the LCA MK2 going forward (over the next 10 years for example). Unless the intention is to induct two new foreign types I don’t see the Gripen offer leading anywhere with SAAB only controlling access to a few technologies that they can transfer on their own.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11207
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Gagan » 07 Jun 2016 01:30

Just so that everyone knows...
SAAB has a follow on twin engined fighter stealth plane in the works that looks quite like the AMCA !

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20608
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 07 Jun 2016 11:19

Gripes!...sorry,Cripes! Raha's Swedish sojourn ain't a coincidence. It looks like the Gripen is a hot contender for the "second made in India" bird.The official statements from the HAL CMan,etc.,have dumped the Yanqui "teens" into the basket called history,unless O"Bomber gifts them to Mr.Modi on his visit.
The only other Western bird available at reasonable cost is the Gripen.The FGFA deal being hinted at being sealed later this year (for the future tech advantage over the PLAAF) means that cost-effective options like more Fulcrums 29/35s are v.unlikely,barring replacements, and MKIs always available when needed to boost strike capability. So Gripens,which will come in at far lower cost than Raffys will be the IAF's route to 45 sqds along with the LCA. Raha and the IAF flyboys must be chuckling at how they're slowly getting two western toys/birds for the price of arms and legs.

kapilrdave
BRFite
Posts: 1566
Joined: 17 Nov 2008 13:10

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby kapilrdave » 07 Jun 2016 16:08

Bhaskar_T wrote:Wonder if India is only importing 36 Rafales, all these 36 will come built-up what would TAAL do as far as structural assemblies are considered.

PS - Such a low-cap company TAAL may return good investments, if one invests in its stock. Fortunes depend on how much work is given by Dassault. TAAL is also associated with Rustam (DRDO). Stock is trading at low ~ 40 INR.


Indo-French aircraft deal may benefit TAAL, says company CEO, 3rd June 2016


Yesss. Now I know a sure shot way to shoot down the Rafale purchase.

I just need to buy a few shares of TAAL and my fortunes will do the rest :(( .

nirav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2020
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 00:22
Location: Mumbai

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby nirav » 07 Jun 2016 17:35

:rotfl:

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cosmo_R » 07 Jun 2016 18:17

Gagan wrote:Just so that everyone knows...
SAAB has a follow on twin engined fighter stealth plane in the works that looks quite like the AMCA !


http://robotpig.net/aerospace-news/saab ... gram-_1827

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8590
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby brar_w » 07 Jun 2016 18:44

There are no definitive timelines for the SAAB next generation fighter. At the moment they are essentially delivering the Gripen E/F, dubbed the NG, around the same timeline by which nearly all other major 5th generation aircraft would have been developed, or in some advanced stage of customer delivery. The F-22 would be 20 years old (IOC) by the time the FOC is declared on the Gripen E/F, and the F-35 well into its follow on development. Even the PAKFA with a new engine and final ‘ stage’ should be available by the middle of next decade.

The AMCA is a program, ADA is actively looking into propulsion and is validating designs. I don’t see this particular SAAB design going anywhere in the next decade. Its purely an S&T program, without a goal to eventually field something especially since they don’t deliver their current NG aircraft with full capability till a decade from now. The AMCA, Japan’s Shin Shin (and eventual offshoot) and the Korean F-x are far more advanced in that there is a customer that has expectations, and there is a design team that is going out and looking to procure components that it needs. Sweden or SAAB haven’t really don’t that and I think they’ll play it much smarter and look at the FCAS (they were partners on the neuron iirc) and see if they can bring in technology from that program into creating more autonomous, unmanned modes for the Gripen NG, as well as UCAV’s that can increase its capabilities in the 30’s and 40’s.

A clean sheet 5th generation aircraft ) is still a major expenditure (double digit Billions for them) and something they are unlikely to commit to in ‘ AMCA timelines’. Its also nearly imposible to create a 5th generation single engine aircraft that can complement or replace the Gripen E’s specification given their constraints (leaves just one engine family as a choice) . Even the Gripen C’s specification would be tough to manage. Internal Bays, All internal fuel, and all internal sensors have consequences when it comes to size and weight and that impacts engine choices. This will eventually become a twin and medium sized just like the AMCA, the Korean F-X and possibly the Turkish fighter, that SAAB could possibly advise/consult on.

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7467
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Prasad » 07 Jun 2016 21:00

The NG isn't a medium weight bird is it?

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8590
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby brar_w » 07 Jun 2016 21:04

I was reffering to the Next Generation project that follows the Gripen E/F. I guess next next generation. If you want to retain the specs (range, payload and mission systems) of the Gripen C or make a 5th generation aircraft with comparable specs to the E you'll end up with a medium sized twin given your design constraints and reliance on foreign help. There is simply no way around that. And if you do get a medium, twin engine fighter you run into a wall of other similar birds in the F-X, AMCA, Turkish and Japanese fighters and must also compete with the F35 - Essentially it takes away from all thing SAAB does/did well i.e a niche small fighter, with high quality avionics at a low relative cost to procure and operate.

I see them pass on this for a few decades and move full steam to using unmanned to enhance the Gripen E/F capability into the 30's and 40s.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20608
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 08 Jun 2016 14:19

Yep,the Gripen, may be tightening its "grip",pardon the pun,just as that of the Rafale is loosening.
It's upto the French to lose it.

http://thediplomat.com/2016/06/indian-a ... fale-deal/

[/strike]
Indian and French Defense Ministers to Meet in Singapore to Discuss Rafale Deal
The pending Rafale deal has been delayed for months. Will the defense ministers be able to break the deadlock?

By Franz-Stefan Gady
June 02, 2016

Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar will meet French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian on the sidelines of this year’s Shangri-La Dialogue, taking place in Singapore from June 3-5. According to The Economic Times, the two minister will discuss the $8.9 billion contract for the purchase of 36 fourth generation Dassault Rafale multirole fighter jets for the Indian Air Force.

“Both Indian and French Defense Ministers will meet on June 3. Rafale among others will be discussed,” an Indian defense official revealed. The Indian defense minister is seeking to conclude the deal by the end of June. Topics to be discussed during the meeting include “consensus on actions to be taken in case of a material breach, stringent liability clause and guarantee by French,” according to The Economic Times.

It was only in April that India and France agreed on a price for the 36 off-the-shelf Dassault Rafale twin-engine aircraft (See: “India to Pay $9 Billion for 36 French Fighter Jets”). An additional contentious issue was the offset clause, which stipulates that France has to invest 50 percent of the contract value as offsets in India “including aeronautics, electronics and micro-electronics technologies,” as I previously noted.

Other stumbling blocks included the delivery date of the aircraft and technical issues including the modification and reconfiguration of the fighter jets to permit the installation of Indian-made and commercial-off-the-shelf and weapons systems, I explained back in January.

My colleague, Ankit Panda, pointed out that frustration among French officials has been rising in the last couple of months. “If you don’t want the Rafale, go ahead and build the F-16 here. You can build it in India and supply it to Pakistan also,” one official was quoted as saying, referring to a separate bilateral deal between the United States and Pakistan over the purchase of eight F-16 fighter aircraft.

The AgustaWestland graft scandal has further jeopardized and delayed the conclusion of the Rafale agreement, The Diplomat reported in May:

Speaking before India’s parliament last week, Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar said that the pending talks with the French government would come under renewed scrutiny, likely due to renewed attention in India on the AgustaWestland scandal given recent verdicts handed down in the case in Italy.

During French President François Hollande’s visit to India in January 2016, an intergovernmental agreement detailing the technical aspects of the defense deal was finally signed by Hollande and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

As I reported previously (See: “Confirmed: India to Buy Only 36 Rafale Fighter Jets”):

Initially, the MMRCA [medium multi-role combat aircraft] project envisioned that India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would build 108 out of a 126 total Rafale jets locally, with the first batch of 18 fighter jets directly delivered from France in flyaway condition.

However, New Delhi unexpectedly announced in April of this year that it would only purchase 36 French-made Rafale fighters instead of the original 126.(…)

The price tag for the 36 off-the-shelf Rafale will substantially be cheaper since France is no longer obligated to build the planes in India. (…)

The first aircraft are expected to be delivered approximately 18 months after the signing of a final contract.

Will
BRFite
Posts: 637
Joined: 28 Apr 2011 11:27

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Will » 08 Jun 2016 16:17

Who wants to bet that we will/wont be discussing the Rafale deal into the next decade :evil:

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1668
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Khalsa » 09 Jun 2016 06:49

We will be (count my vote)

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5380
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karthik S » 09 Jun 2016 06:55

Will wrote:Who wants to bet that we will/wont be discussing the Rafale deal into the next decade :evil:

:lol:

Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9782
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Yagnasri » 09 Jun 2016 07:49

I think there are simply too many developments in this matter in the last year or so. This deal is going to be very difficult to make. Price is a major issue and the bribes allegations make also make GOI think twice now. F16&18 offer of MII also intended to derail the deal.

Maybe we take F18 offer in MII and get on with it. We can use it for our navy also.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20608
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 09 Jun 2016 12:26

The MIG-29K is at least the equal of a naval SH and comes in at half the price.TVC/AESA upgrades will make them even better. It's highly unlikely that the IN will opt for SHs.Incidentally,I posted a US report recently where the USN itself is facing difficulties in keeping the number of SH sqds airborne due to reduced prod,etc.The entire effort today is aimed at getting the JSF into battleworthy condition as it has suffered inordinate delays due to engine and software dev problems.

The ACM's Swedish sojourn and news in the aftermath is eagerly awaited.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Gyan » 09 Jun 2016 15:05

I wonder if the interest shown in Gripen is to pressurize both the French and Russians to give us a good deal or else? Gripen is obviously not a full replacement for twin engined aircraft but Gripen NG with Meteor missiles would have a formidable presence with a range of 1500km (which would be very near Rafale).

http://saab.com/globalassets/commercial ... 15_low.pdf

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8590
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby brar_w » 09 Jun 2016 18:34

The MIG-29K is at least the equal of a naval SH and comes in at half the price.


For exactly What role? The mission systems, and fusion on the current baseline Rhino is a lot different from the configuration even a decade ago . There is no AESA on the K's and so far there is no AESA fulcrum operational. The rhinos AESA radar has received 2 full upgrades since it was first fielded and same for the EW protection with other more advanced options just months away from operational deployment (IDECMS blk 4)

The initial Rhino came without the aim 9x, and with the AMRAAM C5, the current version operational comes with a second generation JHMCS (color), block II (data link) Aim 9x and the AMRAAM - D which is now cleared for export replacing the AMRAAM-c7 as the most advanced AMRAAM available for export. Even the second generation AN/ASG-34 has gone into LRIP with both frame mounted and external mounted (fuel tank or pod) configurations being actively marketed for export.

If you go into the strike mission the targeting options and PGMs alone make it the most advanced naval strike fighters currently in service along with the raffle.

In the ends it boils down to what you are using it for, there would definitely be situation where the more advanced and mature mission systems on the current and future block shornet would be an overkill but then again, you are space constrained on a carrier so it's actually wise to pack your strike fighters with the most capable systems you can develop

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20608
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 10 Jun 2016 11:48

What role? here it is,from the "sea-horses' "mouth,the IN itself!
Xcpts from the press release in May 2013 at the commissioning of the first sqd.

http://indiannavy.nic.in/content/mig-29k
The MiG-29K is a true swing role aircraft which carries enough punch to undertake Air Dominance and Power Projection missions simultaneously, bestowing the Commander at sea, great flexibility. It takes Indian naval aviation from a defensive stature to one of dominance. The MiG 29K aircraft is a state of the art, all weather, carrier based, air dominance fighter specially built for the Indian Navy. The aircraft has a maximum speed over twice the speed of sound (about 2000 kmph), can pull up to 8 times the force of gravity, can climb to an altitude of over 65000 feet. Armed with an arsenal of some of the most sophisticated weapons in the world it is fully equipped to dominate by engaging targets in air, at sea or on land. Latest avionics, with data link capabilities coupled with its range of armament will enable true power projection. With its air- to- air refueling capability its ranges are also extended to perform true power projection and air space dominance roles.

It may be recalled that the MiG 29K supersonic air dominance fighters were inducted by Mr Antony on 19 Feb 2010. Sixteen of these potent aircraft were inducted to form the main combat power of the, soon to be inducted aircraft carrier, Vikramaditya. Since its induction, the aircraft have flown over 2500 hrs and have successfully concluded armament trials of the entire range of arsenal comprising air to surface missiles, air to air missiles, bombs, rockets and guns. After proving in trials the aircraft have also participated in important theatre level exercises with the Indian Navy and the Indian Air Force. Having successfully completed all tasks and trials assigned and established its combat potential, the MiG-29K squadron has now been commissioned into front line service to form the sword arm of the Indian Navy.

INAS 303 - The Black Panthers

A MiG 29 K aircraft prepares to take off at INS Hansa

In the tradition of naming its fighter squadrons in the 300 series, the MiG- 29K squadron, is christened INAS 303 and is being popularly referred to as the ‘Black Panthers’. The number 303 has been derived from the revolutionary .303 rifle cartridge, which in the mid-19th century replaced the traditional lever-action cartridges with pointed-tip bullets, giving it a ballistic advantage over its counterparts. This path breaking technology enabled the bullet to travel at much higher speeds, more accurately and inflict much more damage than its predecessors, thus creating a new standard on which the future guns of the world were built. Drawing similarity to the above mentioned attributes of the rifle the number 303 has been chosen to represent the MiG 29K squadron. Just like the rifle revolutionized the concepts of rifle firing, the induction of the Black Panther squadron marks the beginning of a new era of fighter flying in the Indian navy and hence the squadron is also referred to as "the game changers". The squadron’s insignia depicts the rare Black Panther, rampant on sea waves, against an azure background.


http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... -aircraft/
Naval Tech:
MiG-29K development history

The MiG-29K project was initiated in the late 1970s to meet the requirements of the Soviet Navy for a supersonic carrier-based fighter. The first proof of concept version, MiG-29KVP, was developed based on the MiG-29M.

The MiG-29KVP completed its maiden flight in August 1982. The aircraft with new undercarriage and folding wings of greater area, differed from the MiG-29 production model.

The first MiG-29K took to the skies on 23 July 1988. The aircraft performed its first carrier landing on the aircraft-carrying cruiser Tbilisi (now Admiral Kuznetsov) on 1 November 1989. The project was halted due to the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Mikoyan continued the development and struggled with funding issues until it received orders from India. The MiG-29KUB aircraft completed its first flight in January 2007.

MiG-29K design features

The MiG-29K features a strengthened airframe and undercarriage suitable for landing on aircraft carriers. The airframe is made of about 15% composite materials. The aircraft is fitted with folding wings, arrestor hook and a catapult for carrier operations. The radar signature of the aircraft is reduced by four to five times over the basic MiG-29.

The MiG-29K is fitted with more powerful RD-33MK engines, replacing the RD-33K turbofan engines used in the early prototypes. The flight hours of the fighter are doubled, but the flight hour cost is reduced by about 2.5 times. The aircraft can operate without overhaul.

The single and double seat variations feature the same airborne equipment and weapons. The MiG-29KUB two-seat fighter is primarily intended for pilot training, but can also conduct combat missions similar to the single-seat fighter.

The glass cockpit of the MiG-29K aircraft accommodates one pilot. It is equipped with three multifunctional colour LCDs, a digital fly-by-wire flight control system and TopOwl helmet-mounted targeting system.

MiG-29K avionics systems

The airborne avionics based on open architecture are classified under MIL-STD-1553B standard. The open architecture allows the installation of new equipment and weapons according to customer requirements.

The fighter has multirole, multimode Zhuk-ME pulse doppler radar from Fazotron-NIIP Corporation. The radar with the slot array has wider scanning angle and longer target detection range. Zhuk-ME can track up to ten air targets while engaging four targets simultaneously.

The MiG-29K/KUB fighters have multichannel infra-red search and track (IRST) system with target designation system. The aircraft can also be installed with IR and laser sighting devices for ground targets illumination.

Weapon systems on the Russian-built MiG-29K carrier-based multirole fighter

MiG-29K is armed with RVV-AE and R-73E air-to-air missiles, Kh-31A and Kh-35E anti-ship missiles and Kh-31P anti-radar missiles. Other armaments include guided aerial bombs, rockets and aerial bombs.


"In January 2004, India placed an order for 12 MiG-29K single-seat and four MiG-29KUB two-seat fighters."
The aircraft is mounted with a 30mm GSh-30-1 cannon with 100 rounds. A wide range of weapons can be added upon the request of the customer.

MiG-29K/KUB is the only ship-borne fighter in the world to fire Kh-31A supersonic anti-ship missiles resistant to air-defence.

*(Will carry BMos in the future too!)

The MiG-29K is powered by two RD-33MK engines equipped with smokeless combustion chamber and new full authority digital engine control (FADEC) system.

The power plant provides a ferry range of 2,000km. The range can be increased to 3,000km with three underwing fuel drop tanks.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8590
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby brar_w » 10 Jun 2016 13:49

What role? here it is,from the "sea-horses' "mouth,the IN itself!


Ummm..My point was what role do you want to compare the two aircraft in? You made a pretty bold statement without backing that up even a bit. As I have mentioned some of the Super Hornet's advanced mission system elements will be incorporate into the yet to be operationalized Mig-35 later this decade. When that happens is anyone's guess. But the Mig-35 cannot take off or land on an aircraft carrier and so far the RuAF hasn't acquired any. So where exactly is the Mig-29K as good as the currently fielded block of the Super Hornet as you have claimed? Have you had a chance of looking at the air-air and air-ground list of weapons that can go on the Rhino? including non US weapons such as the ASRAAM and JSM etc?.

The statement " Mig-29K is just as good as the Super Hornet at half the cost" wasn't really backed up since as I have shown the Super Hornet has 4.5 Generation mission systems and has gained tremendous capability in mission computers and sensor fusion with and the current block being a considerable improvement over the version that was initially inducted into the USN. Short term capability (6 months to 3 years to induction) is even more impressive (EW upgrade, AESA radar processor upgrade, mission computer upgrades). The Mig-29K isn't getting extensive upgrades over the short-medium term (if so, I'd love to see the path)..The TVC and AESA radar you talk about has absolutely no path to get into the Mig-29K's and the other upgrades aren't well funded from what I have read. Its a good aircraft, but to claim that a comparable version costs half that of the super hornet is rather absurd especially if one doesn't get into what one gets at that price. As things stand the current block Super Hornet is miles apart from the Mig-29K when it comes to operationally fielded capability and once you factor in funded enhancements the gap grows further.

The Rhino is the most economical medium class western fighter on the market with the USN average end item cost being between $55-$58 Million dollars through its nearly 600 aircraft acquisition program (Growler was over and above that, but it would naturally cost more since it has capability that is different form the Shornet). At that cost the USN got 4.5 generation avionics, AESA radar (with 1 hardware and 2 software upgrades already fielded or in testing), and a large laundry list of weapons they could choose from that is pretty much as good as or better than any aircraft out there in the class (Naval strike fighter). Now if you can show that one can get a Mig-29K with 4.5 generation avionics, sensor fusion, AESA radar, Developer Nation and foreign weapons clearance (Such as the ASRAAM and JSM) comes in at below $30-40 Million, I'd love to see that. The Mig-35, that has so far seen interest from Egypt and Algeria is closer to $50 Million per aircraft for the first customer (46 Aircraft for $2.2 Billion) with no such variant is even offered for the Mig-29K so that we can establish a direct price comparison between the block II+ Shornet and it. The SH is now back into low rate production and its production will fade out over the next 5 or so years. It will naturally get more expensive since the economies of scale advantage is going away but it has offered an extremely attractive recurring cost over its program life that is well below most other comparable western systems and extremely cost-effective once you factor in the entire capability set that came with it, even when comparing it to non-western systems where a direct comparison is rather difficult (different economic conditions, and cost-reporting transparency is virtually nonexistent).

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20608
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 10 Jun 2016 15:30

The cost of an SH is almost twice that of a MIG-29K.The IN's cost just $32M each.The std SH costs $60M (Wik in 2013).Armament.The SH carries no supersonic ASMs,only Harpoon. In the future Ithe IN's MIG-29Ks will also carry BMos,which for at least 5-19 years,no USN naval aircraft will be carrying anything similar! As for AESA radars,Phazotron's Zhuk-AESA radar will be only 30% more expensive than the current Zhuk-ME.A 3 yr old report below. An upgraded MID-29K to MIG-35 std. The offer of MIG-35s with TVC,etc.,for Egypt was approx $40M/aircraft,$20M cheaper than an SH! When one compares the aircraft specs,prices,etc ,one can clearly see which is the better deal.

Designers of 3D AESA radars aim to bring the price down to a level comparable to that of a radar with a traditional mechanically-scanned array. So far AESA radars remain about 30% more expensive; our goal is to further narrow this gap to 8-10%. The bulk of the price is the cost of monolithic integrated circuits which are used in the TRMs. If purchased abroad they hike the price of a single TRM to between $800 and $1,000. We are planning to launch domestic production of such circuits, thus reducing the TRM price to about $400 to $500 apiece. Indian specialists liked the Zhuk-AE radar installed on the Russian MiG-35 fighter proposed for the MMRCA tender. I am bringing to Aero India several presentations for the Indian military and defense companies. It says in these presentations that the Zhuk-AE will be totally interchangeable with the mechanically-scanned Zhuk-ME model. In Bangalore I am planning to suggest to IAF representatives that we upgrade the last two of their MiG-29 fighters with our AESA radar, to demonstrate that the airframe would not require any alterations at all.


Since this is the Rafale td wie can take this debate elsewhere.
Reposting an old article which is worth looking at again,esp from the cost angle,with the Gripen waiting in the wings (pun intended).

With the MiG-29 on steroids, who needs the Rafale
3 September 2013 RAKESH KRISHNAN SIMHA
With the air defence MiG-29s being upgraded to an advanced multirole aircraft, the Indian Air Force could save more than $10 billion by scratching the Rafale.
Facebook7 Twitter LinkedIn Pinterest
Print page
RELATED

Scrambling for a two-front war: What the IAF won’t tell you
Getting Rafale jets will not affect Indian cooperation with Russia
TAGS
INDIAN AIR FORCES, MIG-29, RAFALE

The MiG-29SMT upgrade will represent a major step forward for the aircraft on multiple fronts. Source: MiG Corporation
More than a year after the French Rafale won the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) dogfight, a contract is nowhere in sight – forget the delivery date. Not only is it the usual drawn-out drama that comes with India’s defence acquisitions, it is also clear the French have overpromised on the technology transfer provisions and now want to welch out.

The delay in the signing of the MMRCA contract, along with the high-octane upgrade of the Indian Air Force (IAF) MiG-29 Fulcrum and the advanced state of gestation of India’s fifth generation fighter, the Sukhoi PAK-FA, are creating a situation where the Rafale seems superfluous to India’s defence requirements.

The biggest game changer is the ongoing upgrade to the IAF’s Fulcrum fleet which will convert them to the MiG-29SMT. This means these aircraft will now be on a par with the advanced MiG-29M. “The MiG-29SMT upgrade will represent a major step forward for the aircraft on multiple fronts,” says Air Force Technology.

Most Indian Fulcrums are MiG-29Bs, downgraded by removing Russian IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) and datalink equipment, and a subpar radar. (This is standard practice by all manufacturing nations which reserve the most advanced versions for their own defence forces while exporting stepped down models.)

The IAF has speeded up the MiG-29B upgrade programme because of two factors.

One, an impending fighter crunch. Hundreds of MiG-21 interceptors and MiG-23 interceptors and fighter bombers have been retired, and the long-serving MiG-27 ground attack fighter won’t be around very long. The 118 British Jaguars – which have been highly accident prone – may also have to be withdrawn from their deep penetration roles in view of the improvement in air defences in India’s neighbourhood.

Secondly, India’s Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas, which was to have filled the void created by the MiG-21’s exit, remains flight shy. The three-decade long programme is suffering from all sorts of problems, leaving India with a huge gap in its light interceptor fleet.

MiG-29 on steroids

Defense Industry Daily (DID) reports the 62 upgraded MiG-29s – 54 single-seat fighters and 8 trainers – will join the Mirage-2000 fleet in the IAF’s multirole middle-tier category. This is a category that is above the MiG-21s/27s and below the Sukhoi-30 MKIs. The upgrade will change their role from air-superiority planes to full multirole fighters with modern air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons.

The planes will be fitted with upgraded weapons and a new avionics suite, including the Phazatron Zhuk-ME radar. The Zhuk-ME’s acquisition range has increased 1.5 times. It also adds terrain following mode, and ground target acquisition including high-resolution synthetic aperture radar (SAR) to obtain a better picture than is possible with conventional radar.

After the $964 million upgrade, the Fulcrums are expected to remain in service for 10-15 more years, with their safe flight-hour lifetimes extended from 25 years/2,500 hours to 40 years/3,500 hours.

The IAF is also bulking up its middle tier by upgrading its 51 Mirage 2000s to a standard similar to the latest Mirage 2000-5. Flying with new radar and new weapons, the upgraded fighters can be expected to serve until around 2030.

Including aircraft under order, India’s Sukhoi-30 MKI fleet is currently pegged at 272. It is an impressive number for such a high-end and expensive weapons platform. This shows a keen sense of judgement by the IAF, which realizes that 100 percent fleet utilisation is impossible and having a large number of aircraft around is the key to getting the job done.

“These aircraft will be the high end of India’s air power, and can be expected to remain in the force past 2030, and are competitive with or superior to top-end European fighters and American F-15 variants,” says DID.

Even allowing for the inevitable delays – with India insisting on various customisations – Sukhoi’s fifth generation stealth fighter will be entering service well before 2030. Under these circumstances, the Rafale is too late to the party.

Related:
MiG-29s to be stationed aboard Vikramaditya and Vikrant
Ready to supply MiG-35s to India - Korotkov
MiGs touch down on the Vikramaditya’s deck
Rafale: Reasons for buying

To be sure, the primary reason for selecting a Western aircraft – ahead of more potent Russian alternatives – is to reduce dependence on one vendor country.

The other objective is to acquire the full technology suite of a modern aircraft for local production. French technology is being pitched as the magic potion that will save the Tejas programme, while also providing a large boost to aerospace and defence electronics industries in India. Basically, it will allow India to move up from screwdriver technology to building entire fighter aircraft from scratch.

But will Dassault, which builds the Rafale, oblige? The French newspaper L’Usine Nouvelle cites complex electronics, and especially the Thales AESA radar, as being difficult to transfer. The Delhi-based Daily Pioneer predicts a “stream of news reports that we’ve already heard a thousand times before will come out telling us how unprepared our institutions are to receive this technology”.

There is no reason for the IAF to accept a downgraded Rafale. In view of the massive fall in living standards in the West in general and mass unemployment in France in particular, it is France, not India that has to compromise. The alternative for Dassault is the closure of its Rafale plant. Someone should sit with the French and show them the mirror.

The IAF is clear that it does not want to repeat the story of the HF-24 Marut fighter – the first Indian supersonic aircraft – which was developed in the 1960s by HAL and the freelancing German aerospace engineer Kurt Tank. Like the Tejas, the Marut too was an underpowered aircraft that was quietly retired.

If the French do not deliver the technology, there is no point spending billions on sterile imports – unless someone in the vicinity of South Block is seriously committed to kickbacks.

Rafale’s costs may defy gravity

Another problem with the Rafale is the ballooning cost. The MMRCA was a requirement of the 2000s but the extended competition has inflated costs to stratospheric levels – from $10 billion a decade ago to around $20 billion, according to the New Delhi-based Institute for Defence Studies & Analysis (IDSA). Plus, nobody reckoned with the falling rupee, which has also increased the cost per plane.

DID believes the 100 or so Rafales would offer some compatibilities with the upgraded Mirage 2000s, but will come at about twice the Sukhoi-30 MKI’s price. “If budget pressures intervene and Tejas continues to lag, India could be forced to buy a less expensive mid-tier plane instead,” it says.

That plane could well be the MiG-29SMT. Its variant, the MiG-35 could easily replace the Rafale if India scratches the MMRCA and opts for a government to government deal instead.

Need for spending wisely

Acquiring the Rafale at such a prohibitive cost is extravagance which India cannot afford at a time when economic growth has hit an embarrassing 5 percent and the rupee is in free fall. “While it was presumed a few years ago that funds for defence would not be a constraint in the future, a slowing economy has led to these funds being curtailed,” says the IDSA. “The writing on the wall is clear: resource constraints are looming for the armed forces.”

When advanced Russian aircraft are available for less than half the price of the Rafale, it would be prudent to wait before signing on the line that is dotted. The money can be better spent on beefing up the Tejas programme. For the kind of cash we are talking, there is a hell of a lot of red hot technology that cash strapped defence companies in the West will part with.

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4443
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Manish_Sharma » 10 Jun 2016 17:24

Even after 16 years of production in Bharat the Sukhois aren't above 50% availability. Engine supposed to be serviced at 1000 hours was lowered by VS to 750 hours; still the problems persist.

...and sukhoi is supposedly better then bankrupted mig corp. Imagine the problems with inferior company Mig now the parts problem with migs will be manifold, already 29Ks and their sea wasp engines aren't able to perform much near sea humid environment, they are mostly hangar queens.

That's why Rafale is preferred, but since its unfairly expensive. Then only LCA Tejas can be its alternate. With a reliable GE engine, and home made Tejas the availability can be managed at 90% easily.

By the way for BRFites:
Those who are connected to PMO through their feedback mechanism; and they are asking about govt. performance feedback intensly lately.

A movement of 6 Tejas instead of 1 Rafale has been started, already we've sent over 90 such feedbacks to PMO through many connections, even using numbers of my aunts :) after properly explaining to them how it can create more businesses and jobs in desh, and how certain techs can be manufactured here in case of big numbers.

The format goes like this:
a.) At 25 million $ 6 Tejas can be had instead of 1 Rafale.

b.) If many more Tejas are manufactured here we can buy the techs to manufacture parts like high grade aviation alloys currently done in france for Tejas eg. single piece tail.

c.) 450 Tejas Mark 1 and 450 Tejas Mark 2 = 900 Tejas will be the biggest "Make in Bharat" example.

d.) Many west loving journos say Arjun and Tejas are only 40 and 60 percent indigenous, but that is because of low numbers ordered if a big order of 3000 Arjun Mk. 2 Tanks is given and 450 + 450 = 900 everything can be mfrd. here.

e.) Each fighter goes through 3 engines in its life, so for the order of 2700 GE engines not only huge ToT can be had but also with that US should help setting up those high grade alloy tail and other parts making plants here so we're freed of dependecy on france.

g.) With such high number of indigenous Vayu Sena no fear of sanctions, Tejas will be just like Jaguar and its engine, everything is done here west can't put any sanctions on us, in case we chose to do next round of testing.



I urge BRFites to make their own lists independently and send them not just to PMO but also Raksha Mantri and even Amit Shah the BJP president.

This is the time to do our part of Karma.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8590
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby brar_w » 10 Jun 2016 17:34

Philip wrote:The cost of an SH is almost twice that of a MIG-29K.The IN's cost just $32M each.The std SH costs $60M (Wik in 2013).Armament.The SH carries no supersonic ASMs,only Harpoon. In the future Ithe IN's MIG-29Ks will also carry BMos,which for at least 5-19 years,no USN naval aircraft will be carrying anything similar! As for AESA radars,Phazotron's Zhuk-AESA radar will be only 30% more expensive than the current Zhuk-ME.A 3 yr old report below. An upgraded MID-29K to MIG-35 std. The offer of MIG-35s with TVC,etc.,for Egypt was approx $40M/aircraft,$20M cheaper than an SH! When one compares the aircraft specs,prices,etc ,one can clearly see which is the better deal.



viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4752&p=2028451#p2028451

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20608
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 12 Jun 2016 02:32

Latest Outlook mag has sensational revelations reg alleged arms dealer Sanjay Bhandari under invedtigation by the govt.Links to a certain biker,macho man one R.Vadra.The MHA report has info that sensitive def files found by the IB ,the one reg "126 aircraft" went missing,found later on the road!He allegedly was passing the info to the "American contenders" for the F-16 and F-18 aircraft.Secret documents which should've never left the Def Min were found in his flat.
SB appears to have been a master at remaining below the radar and has links with many prominent politicos on all sides.

arthuro
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 06 Sep 2008 13:35

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby arthuro » 17 Jun 2016 13:24

12 more rafales are requested by Egypt. Negotiations are underway:

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fin ... 79182.html

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Surya » 18 Jun 2016 18:07

Egypts orders are meaningless

like pakistan everything is paid of other peoples largesse


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests