India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 11 Jun 2016 06:30

At the stroke of midnight August 15th, 1947 is when Arjuna shed his Gandiva; after wanting to establish dharma for 800 odd years. Now it is almost 70years of upadesha, time for Viswaroopam onlee.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jun 2016 07:25

unleash the dharmic weapon at both places to represent karma and puniya

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Jun 2016 09:35

India and US dropped specific mention of South China Sea from their joint statement

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 11 Jun 2016 10:29

Austin wrote:India and US dropped specific mention of South China Sea from their joint statement

NSG calculations perhaps? Nonetheless. PRC won't allow India into NSG primarily because India will in a decade or so become a competitor to PRC in the realm of N know-how exports around the world.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Jun 2016 10:48

Even Indian news reports, report the Malabar exercises are being held in Western Pacific.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jun 2016 10:54

Press conference highlights U.S., India, Japan cooperation during Malabar 2016 by U.S. Pacific Command, on Flickr

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jun 2016 10:58

the far ship is one of the shivaliks, the near ship is a akizuki class ddg

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 11 Jun 2016 11:04

sum wrote:... there are some beyond repair folks in our desh!

good point but also a little (lot?) depressing. But then hope springs eternal. May be, just may be, these folks can be turned around.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 11 Jun 2016 11:07

Singha, amreeki soldier looks like Jaws vis-a-vis Indic and "sayonara" soldiers.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jun 2016 11:17

^that is a given based on their gene profile

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jun 2016 18:10

Bhai all it matters is what size of missile comes out of the silo when the red button marked "inflict pain" is pressed

For us the oak tree sized brahmos...

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 11 Jun 2016 20:50

If we get habituated to reminding ourselves of alphabet soup treaties ie amriki or 'international' kyaa kahenge, it would be the same when deciding to hit the red button.

habal · Post by **habal** » 12 Jun 2016 17:50

One Omar Mateen has been held responsible for Florida night club assault which killed 20 people and 42 are in hospital. Fingers crossed it is pakistani.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 12 Jun 2016 18:26

^^
Born in the US to immigrants from Afghanistan.

habal · Post by **habal** » 12 Jun 2016 18:50

close .. so close
50 dead now, 53 injured .. so this is massive.

this is pic.
http://www.tmz.com/2016/06/12/terrorist ... ub-murder/

Tamang · Post by **Tamang** » 12 Jun 2016 19:12

ldev wrote:^^
Born in the US to immigrants from Afghanistan.

Doesn't sound like Afghan name. Definitely from Pak/BD ancestory.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 12 Jun 2016 19:28

Tamang wrote:
ldev wrote:^^
Born in the US to immigrants from Afghanistan.
Doesn't sound like Afghan name. Definitely from Pak/BD ancestory.

It is possible that his parents are originally Pakistani. Apparently the records indicate immigration/refugees from Afghanistan, but Pakis are known to masquerade as anyone to try and get into the West and have succeeded. The father is apparently Mir Siddique. And the shooter's full name is Omar Saddiqui Mateen

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 12 Jun 2016 19:49

Sad to see such mindless hateful acts. RIP victims. This is perhaps the biggest gun violence in US till date. Dangers of radical Islam and easy availability of assault weapon needs to be debated in US.

India did the right thing to keep tough gun control laws. When one maniac can kill 50 and wound 50 more within a few minutes, what security can one provide?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Jun 2016 20:07

People have done worse there like going into school and killing innocent young children and committed by local American.

I guess NRA will come with its usual defence had all the folks in the bar carried guns they would have defended themselves against Islamist , bottom line we need to sell more guns with better background checks

Some where they need to look into their own self and do some soul searching to figure out who created these Islamist in the first place,.

Guns were always there in US but there was not such voilence

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 12 Jun 2016 20:25

This Omar Mateen was born in NY in 1986, so the parents went to the US before that. The father could have been part of the "glorious mujahedeen" who fought the Soviets in Afghanistan with the Soviets leaving in 1979 with the father being rewarded with US immigration in the early 1980s (conjecture on my part). If so, then Charlie Wilson's war is certainly coming home to roost.

This shooter was a registered security guard and hence trained in the use of guns. No wonder he efficiently killed ~50 people.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Jun 2016 20:30

Ghastly.Sincere condolences to all Americans. Something must be done about gun control,at least a ban on assault rifles and seni-autos

So the US ditched us on the NSG club but cleverly got us to sign onto the MTCR regime.We should've linked the two.The US and China working together have again screwed India.Shades of the Clinton era.....the dear Lord forbid another Clinton...no two of them in the White House!

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 12 Jun 2016 20:32

Seems US Congressmen are learning from our earlier Indian babus in protectionist anti-trade idiocy: http://profit.ndtv.com/news/tech-media- ... rt-1418247

Should Indian employees of firms in India who lose out on market share to highly capitalized American firms be allowed to demand compensation from the latter ??

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 12 Jun 2016 20:55

schinnas wrote:Sad to see such mindless hateful acts. RIP victims. This is perhaps the biggest gun violence in US till date. Dangers of radical Islam and easy availability of assault weapon needs to be debated in US.

India did the right thing to keep tough gun control laws. When one maniac can kill 50 and wound 50 more within a few minutes, what security can one provide?

Yeah that's why Indian gun laws have worked such wonders for Kashmiri Hindus, Hindus in Kairana (go google what's going on there).

The only thing that's keeping Bodos from joining the others in refugee camps is their illegal guns.

Let me guess, you live in safety and comfort not among Muslims.

At least in US you won't find Xtians reduced to living in refugee camps for decades.

Go provide some security to Hindus in Kairana before indulging in shameless self praise.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 12 Jun 2016 21:02

Care to explain how liberalizing gun laws will improve security in India?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jun 2016 21:13

He just did.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 12 Jun 2016 21:36

Indian gun laws need not be liberalized to an extent as in USA, but anybody who has served the country in the military, paramilitary services or police and their children ought to be allowed to bear arms for life. Tribal leadership ought to be allowed to carry arms too, whereas normal tribals ought to be allowed traditional arms. Beyond that there can be registered weapons for those who are seen to be endangered or those registered agencies which provide private security.

This need not be a binary policy, either no arms for anybody or arms allowed for everybody.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 12 Jun 2016 22:05

per CNN the Orlando gunman claimed allegiance to ISIS and also referred to Boston incident.

I am thinking the reference to him being 'private security guard' could mean he is a (blackwater/kalapani type) contractor gone wrong?? yet another fort hood type (and may be even san Bernardino) incident.

I wonder how many such operatives are already inside cooling heals and when will US reckons if they need to send them all out of US, implications of which will be huge.

Main incentive for paki generals and their families will be gone.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 12 Jun 2016 22:34

schinnas wrote:Sad to see such mindless hateful acts. RIP victims. This is perhaps the biggest gun violence in US till date. Dangers of radical Islam and easy availability of assault weapon needs to be debated in US.

India did the right thing to keep tough gun control laws. When one maniac can kill 50 and wound 50 more within a few minutes, what security can one provide?

Do not bring India unnecessarily into the debate.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 12 Jun 2016 22:35

The tragic part is post these attacks, the sardar community will bear the brunt of "retribution" by idiotic white guys.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 12 Jun 2016 22:38

schinnas wrote:Care to explain how liberalizing gun laws will improve security in India?

My question to you.By opposing guns for hindus besieged by violent and genocidal islamists, are you not indulging in treason?

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 12 Jun 2016 22:42

darshhan wrote:
schinnas wrote:Care to explain how liberalizing gun laws will improve security in India?
My question to you.By opposing guns for hindus besieged by violent and genocidal islamists, are you not indulging in treason?

Get in the bolis or army if need be.

Guns for Hindus leads to guns for Moslems,xtians, jains !!

Our gun balance is just right.with LE,paramilitary and military... arming civies with guns is just not right..

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 12 Jun 2016 22:45

what are chances of this carnage transferring more votes for Trump, since it has been done by one Omar?

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 12 Jun 2016 22:55

Get in the bolis or army if need be.

Guns for Hindus leads to guns for Moslems,xtians, jains !!

Our gun balance is just right.with LE,paramilitary and military... arming civies with guns is just not right..[/quote]

Take the debate to appropriate thread, and I will answer it.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 12 Jun 2016 23:05

When in 2012 there was a mass shooting in a theater in Aurora, Colorado

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Aurora_shooting

There was deluge of rants about how it would not have happened if the audience also had guns and could shoot back.

The same year, NYPD had to shoot a guy near the Empire State building. They also managed to shoot nine others—who were walking on the street.

"NEW YORK – All nine people wounded during a dramatic confrontation between police and a gunman outside the Empire State Building were struck by bullets fired by the two officers, police said Saturday, citing ballistics evidence."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25/ny ... nfire.html

All I can say is that these officers are trained to use firearms and they managed to shoot nine people who were not even close.

I shudder to think what happens when the less trained shootees fire back at the the shooter (forget that it may be in a dark theater or at night).

First of many questions: how do the authorities tell the good guys from the bad on arrival (in the US context)?

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 12 Jun 2016 23:21

This is none other than the father of the florida shooter..(Seddique Mateen Sr) who used to run the show..
(He is speaking Dari, incoherently .. jumping from topic to topic..).. He doesn't like Durand line, likes Talebans ..

And yes declaring his intention to run as president of Afghanistan....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAqERW4ip3g

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 12 Jun 2016 23:50

schinnas wrote:Care to explain how liberalizing gun laws will improve security in India?

Schinnas garu,
I will comment on this only once as its directly not related to the thread.

Question of gun laws in US is a question for US context and for US citizens to decide.
Now we have no dearth of desis in US trying to take up liberal causes in US for whatever reasons but when those positions get extrapolated to India without putting them in the Indian context it only adds to the problem by creating more confusion .

Take the issues of LGBT , women's, Dalit rights etc and how they are addressed by "liberals" living in India yet in light of the american experience - all their solutions are baseless (majorly based on "individualism" and "individual rights") and aiming to cleave rather than trying to build bonds of fraternity amongst these " subaltern" groups and the society at large.

There is complete lack of police and policing in India(in percapita terms) therefore state backed armed groups like village defence committee s in J&K and Maoist areas are the logical recourse.
Now if muslims in Kairana or south Bengal or ramanathapuram or anywhere else are communally cleansing Hindus who are increasingly fleeing due to lack of security then the logical thing to do is to either give them round the clock protection by police (even in remote areas) or more pragmatically provide preferentially Hindus with arms under a central govt framed and controlled ( even if nominal ) secular law.

There is a dire lack of guns in the right hands in India
In such a challenging situation its wrong to bring in American logic to Indian scenario to stiffle the incipient debate on gun laws in India.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 13 Jun 2016 00:00

darshhan wrote:
schinnas wrote:Care to explain how liberalizing gun laws will improve security in India?
My question to you.By opposing guns for hindus besieged by violent and genocidal islamists, are you not indulging in treason?

I am afraid you are reading things that I didn't say. You may want to read my other posts to understand my PoV better.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 13 Jun 2016 00:28

Lilo,

The goal is to not discuss India here, but I am using comparison with India to drive home a point about US society of today.

I am reasonably familiar with US gun laws and second amendment reasonably well. US as a nation / civilization is characterized by pursuit of individual liberty and freedom. That's why you would note that the primary argument for second amendment is that citizens can fight off against authoritarian government if need be. The reason is that an individual should be free to defend himself or herself with any and all weapon they could get.

Personally I am not against guns. Just trying to place access to guns (esp. of more powerful variety) in a socio-political context.

Unlike US, Indian society historically has been more community oriented (localized and when looked at a whole very diverse) than individual oriented. Thats why we dont have such concepts of personal space, privacy, etc., to the level we see in US. There are few communities that are armed (with swords, etc) and more willing to use them. They are the generally land owning communities who also used to double down as warriors for centuries / millenniums to defend the land as they are also the ones that used to collect or pay taxes. Muslims and Sikhs also fall into this category. There is a small but critical difference between this way of understanding (which is need based) and British concept of martial races (which seeks to drive serious ethnic differences where it may not exist).

In Indian context with poor law enforcement, it is not very practical to have relaxed gun control laws. Indian society will regress back into zamindari model with those having guns and willing to wield them having asymmetric power over those that do not. Since Indian society is community driven, it can aggravate differences between communities by making one community more powerful. However, in the legitimate instances where modern arms are needed, there can be localized and time bound solutions such as government sanctioned village defence councils, etc., to protect against maoists / islamic fundamentalists that trouble any village or community. However, as a society, India has done the right thing to keep the society from getting armed to the teeth.

As societies evolve, especially in 21st century, there is a very high degree of interdependence and the 18th century understanding of concepts of individual liberty, privacy and freedom are going to get modified in 21st century. Sooner or later US is going to get closer to a middle ground and realize that uncontrolled permission for weapons (such as easy procurement of assault weapons with 100 round magazine) would not fit modern way of life.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 13 Jun 2016 01:42

Amber G. wrote:This is none other than the father of the florida shooter..(Seddique Mateen Sr) who used to run the show..
(He is speaking Dari, incoherently .. jumping from topic to topic..).. He doesn't like Durand line, likes Talebans ..

And yes declaring his intention to run as president of Afghanistan....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAqERW4ip3g

Here is the pic of him with banner Pakistan: Killers and Terrorists

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 13 Jun 2016 01:49

Second amendment could have made sense in 18th century. People being armed to save themselves from other Militia or even the Monarchy was kind of acceptable in the 17th and 18th century. Irrespective of the exact year or incident that assured in some form of modern democracy in England, by 1776 and the end of 18th century the tussle between Monarchy and Parliamentary was not still settled in various corners of the World. Guns made sense because it was a continuation of previous traditions and could harm less number of people in short time.

In the 21st century, with the development of weapons it is ridiculous to hang on to the second amendment. The entire thing is now controlled by the arms lobby and lunatics assuming imaginary freedom and liberty. Currently elections are the best form, and that is the only peaceful way to change governments. Armed revolution is dangerous and ridiculous ploy to sell more of these weapons.

International arms trade adds another dimensions to this wretched cycle of destruction.