Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

rakall
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby rakall » 17 Jun 2016 16:06

http://www.oneindia.com/india/govt-indian-airforce-have-full-faith-hal-says-manohar-parrikar-2130046.html?utm_source=article&utm_medium=tweet-button&utm_campaign=article-tweet


When a reporter asked the defence minister as to why this project had been delayed, he said that there were some issues in the past. It was pointed out to him that the IAF had refused this aircraft. However, Parrikar showed the press a bottle of water in his hand and said that it was pure. Showing the clear colour of the water in it, he said today everything is clear.

The government and the IAF have full faith in the HAL. It depends on how the bureaucracy is handled he said. The bureaucracy will perform exactly like the government, he said while taking an obvious dig at the earlier government


Saying that the HTT-40 has the firm commitment from the IAF (70 numbers), he said the numbers could go up to 200 in future depending upon the demand from various users.


Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/india/htt-40-ha ... 29865.html

deejay
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby deejay » 17 Jun 2016 16:11

^^^ Something I have said repeatedly before. All roads to "Make In India" /"Made In India" open and shut at MOD.

Good to see clear and correct directives from the current Defence Minister.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Jun 2016 16:33

Hmm was the the person who some called the saint so faultless? Or were those journalists acting on vested interests

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 17 Jun 2016 16:46

suryag wrote:Dont know where the IJT has gone missing in all this good news :(


If I am not mistaken, Shiv had posted once Vayu article snippet IIRC which said initial spin tests after modifications have been successful. But if the spin tests were indeed successful completely we would surely have heard something. I don't see IJT flying now a days. Few months ago it was flying a lot. A paanwala who heard from a chaiwala inststs the tests have been failed and now only option remaining is major structural modifications. The long silence from official sources is killing now.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby member_29350 » 17 Jun 2016 19:07

You know what bugs me every day about our Indigenous programmes, especially the IAF ones?

That IAF import lobby crowd will simply wait out the Modi Gov. on all things Indian made. It's maddening that there are only 4 LCA now(I know I know, I read the posts on manuf lines et al). My fear is, all these low numbers are 'experiments', 'feasibility studies', 'demonstrators' and gets shitcanned through MOD/CAG layers. Even the Arjun with its 124 initial order still got shitcanned(delays) even with the long tail of SMEs behind it.

My dhoti shivering is over this aspect of possible plain daylight skulduggery

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 17 Jun 2016 19:22

deejay wrote:A lucky spotting of NAL Saras again today undergoing a ground run. Apologies for the poor quality and angle of the picture. I had a gate in between and only my mobile.

Image


This made my week! Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Looks so sharp in the Vayusena grey.

Hakim, where do you see the rear door/ramp? The props are not new either.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 17 Jun 2016 19:38

indranilroy wrote:
Hakim, where do you see the rear door/ramp?

Gulp! Inconvenient question but I am hoping this might be it. Seems narrow but maybe I am reading too much into the image..
Image

Karan M
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 17 Jun 2016 20:05

(c) Ajai Shukla

Image

fanne
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby fanne » 17 Jun 2016 20:20

gulp, tires have melted?

Seriously, if the wheals were going to be retracted and would only face the exhaust for few minutes during take off and landing, what was the whole 10 pages discussion. Since the tires have not blown so far, is it safe to assume it is a non issue (even if it impacted, it means tires get replaced more often than not, a minor inconvenience and cost).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 17 Jun 2016 20:32

Hakim that is an outlet of some kind. Has always been there.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 17 Jun 2016 20:43

indranilroy wrote:Hakim that is an outlet of some kind. Has always been there.

Well yes - I see it in this image
http://lh4.ggpht.com/-f9fQmXYee0k/UiDfe ... aft-02.jpg

It still looks like an access door or a planned access door.

I am finding it difficult to locate an image where the prop is not spinning but if I recall right the older Saras did not have these curvy scimitar props. This image is not good - but anyway that is all I got
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/6548-3/Saras2.jpg

added later: found one - the prop is different
http://nal-ir.nal.res.in/715/1/saras3.JPG
Last edited by shiv on 17 Jun 2016 21:07, edited 3 times in total.

Indranil
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 17 Jun 2016 20:52

Karan M wrote:(c) Ajai Shukla

Image

What a beautiful panning shot.

By the way, I have something to remark on HAL (and other DPSUs/DRDO lab). Why is the picture of the dignitary more important than the product. This is the image that appear in HAL's home page for the press report.

Image

You click on the above to go to the report and find yet another picture of the dignitary and the chairman.
Image

And finally, somewhere down below languishes the grainy picture of the actual product!
Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nirav » 17 Jun 2016 20:57

^ :rotfl:

The sarkaari culture is deeply entrenched.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 17 Jun 2016 20:59

OK found an image of the old Saras without Scimitar props
http://nal-ir.nal.res.in/715/1/saras3.JPG

I think the engine was changed - recall reading that somewhere

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Gagan » 17 Jun 2016 21:02

What the UPA & saint anthony did with the Arjun was, to starve the unit for spare parts.
They tried their best to kill the tank even after very limited numbers were inducted after much struggle, and after the Arjun completely killed the 90s.

If the UPA comes back to power, these corrupt netas and their arms agents with the offshore bank accounts will be back and all indiginous programs will suddenly start suffering.
They will create chaos with spares, cause accidents, rig things up and cause controversies, to build up a case for imports.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 17 Jun 2016 21:04

If UPA comes back to power our indigenous programs are screwed. They will rake in kickbacks from imports - or worry about getting caught and do nothing. Less than 3 years to go :(

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Surya » 17 Jun 2016 21:08

the big shot being given a lot of coverage is in our culture

Look at all the Regimental and official web pages, twitter etc
lot of pictures and words about the great jernail

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Lalmohan » 17 Jun 2016 21:20

melting tyres == scooter helmets :-)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Gagan » 17 Jun 2016 21:30

Better to have the exhaust away from the cockpit, where it would have fuzzied the view with a hot stream of air causing unnecessary visibility issues.

The plane itself looks very pretty BTW.
Now if only we could go back in time and fly this with the spitfires and the like :)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby sanjaykumar » 17 Jun 2016 21:54

^Schlieren optics I think.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 17 Jun 2016 22:15

Prasobh wrote:So does this replace the Pilatus Pc-7??


No it won't. the PC-7 Mk2 has a service life of 10,000 hours. Considering an average utilization of 300 hours per year for each aircraft, that would mean they will last in service for around 33 years..They'll complement the PC-7 Mk2 and if the IAF does come around to having a dedicated armed light attack aircraft (I'm not sure they will), they'll order more of the HTT-40.

As the Defence Minister stated, HAL will now need to prove itself by improving on its after-sales service support. The poor PR of the Equadorian Dhruv experience will need to be made up by good support for the HTT-40 if it notches up export sales, which I feel it is in the best position to do, of all HAL products.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 17 Jun 2016 22:17

Indranil,

By the way, I have something to remark on HAL (and other DPSUs/DRDO lab). Why is the picture of the dignitary more important than the product. This is the image that appear in HAL's home page for the press report.

a fellow traveller in the frustration that we have when "photographs of displays" show dignitaries watering flower pots.

indranil bhai, the guy taking the pic knows who is to be buttered, and it is not you and moi (the aam junta) but bade babu onlee.

on a side note, what do you make of the HTT-40 build quality, at least visually from the pics? seems to be fairly ok. also paint, apart from the slight blotching of paint near the hatch, which seems its still somewhat manual..

of course, overall quality can only be determined by AF after series production and how reliable items are in service.

but your take on the above would be good. that close up pic shows closely fitting panels and clean lines and welds. IMHO.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 17 Jun 2016 22:20

Kartik wrote:
Prasobh wrote:So does this replace the Pilatus Pc-7??


No it won't. the PC-7 Mk2 has a service life of 10,000 hours. Considering an average utilization of 300 hours per year for each aircraft, that would mean they will last in service for around 33 years..They'll complement the PC-7 Mk2 and if the IAF does come around to having a dedicated armed light attack aircraft (I'm not sure they will), they'll order more of the HTT-40.

As the Defence Minister stated, HAL will now need to prove itself by improving on its after-sales service support. The poor PR of the Equadorian Dhruv experience will need to be made up by good support for the HTT-40 if it notches up export sales, which I feel it is in the best position to do, of all HAL products
.


+1000. HAL has made a flying unit and kudos. Now they have to prove to the AF that they can deliver a reliable one.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 17 Jun 2016 22:22

paint? Karan, I thought that was just primer?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 17 Jun 2016 22:26

you are right, its not been painted yet and is primer.

but it looks better than some of the early LCA protos, right? i remember even them having more visible welds and splotches of the primer/paint near the edges.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 17 Jun 2016 22:30

From Force magazine, quoting just a portion of an article

Flying begins early at AFA with the first sorties taking to the air around 5:30 am with the first shift of instructors and cadets. This is followed by the second shift that begins at 11 am and eventually, flying stops at around 6:10 pm. Even for the uninitiated, the buzzing flight line humming with activity is immediately apparent. For a brand new type that entered service merely a few months ago, the quantum of flying is very high with a trainer taking off or landing every 15 to 20 minutes. According to Air Vice Marshal V.R. Chaudhuri, deputy commandant AFA Dundigal, “The training syllabus has been increased to 55 hours per trainee from the earlier 25 hours. The solo content has also increased to 14 sorties from only one sortie earlier. This amounts to the task of approximately 1,200 hours per month, making it approximately 60-70 sorties per day on PC-7 MK-II aircraft.” The IAF is looking at an utilisation rate of 300 flying hours per year per aircraft. The PC-7 MK-II has a design life of 10,000 hours and 30,000 landings per aircraft. By the end of August, the fleet had already logged 3,000 flight hours with almost 5,600 landings, and serviceability for the PC-7 MK-II fleet was at 81 per cent. Chief Instructor (Flying) at AFA Dundigal, Air Commodore Nagesh Kapoor tells FORCE, “The rate of flying is very high and that speaks a lot about the maintainability of the aircraft. Earlier, we would need three to four people looking after one aircraft, presently one aircraft is looked after by one person, which is very good. It is very easy on fuel and has tremendous endurance.” He goes on to add, “We are really exploiting this machine and we are doing a whole lot of flying. By the end of this course we would have ended up flying twice as much as we would have done six months earlier.”


This is the kind of momentum that the HTT-40 will need to meet when it enters service. the IAF will cut it a bit of slack for a while so teething issues are resolved, but in a couple of years' time they'll expect it to be matching the PC-7 Mk2's reliability and ability to generate sorties.

Pilatus has had a couple of decades to work out absolutely the smallest of issues, even with the PC-7 Mk2 aircraft and its support infrastructure, not to mention the PC-7 that preceded it and acted as the progenitor for the Mk2. HAL has its work cut out for it and it won't be easy to win over the IAF..not with the Institutional memory of the issues of the HPT-32 that will always be associated with HAL.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 17 Jun 2016 22:37

Karan M wrote:you are right, its not been painted yet and is primer.

but it looks better than some of the early LCA protos, right? i remember even them having more visible welds and splotches of the primer/paint near the edges.


overall the build quality appears quite good.

but this is an all-metal aircraft, the LCA was using a lot more composites all over, so some early build issues may have occurred till they fixed it on later prototypes..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 17 Jun 2016 23:47

yeah but i meant the metal parts, which in LCA, even the hatches seemed to have very obvious welds and some sloppy primer/paint work.
in HALs defence, they were protos and not subject to all those fancy machines they got for the SP units.

the HTT supposedly has a very high percentage of locally sourced items. big step up from IJT in that sense.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 18 Jun 2016 01:32

Image

hot exhaust visible here..how hot must it be to shimmer like that?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nirav » 18 Jun 2016 01:41

Took a while to dig it.

I recall a huge "debate" on the LCAs paint peeling off @ IOC..
I wrote a letter(email).
The gent was kind and gracious to actually write back !

Air Cmde Rohit Varma <****@*******.ada.gov.in>

3/24/11

to me

Dear Nirav,

Thank you for your good wishes.

As for the finish, suffice it to say that we have all seen with amazement how many theorist enthusiasts can come up with, merely on the basis of sharp observation and a keen eye. The kind of intense discussions generated and the passion is heart-warming. There is hope for this nation.

Let me assure you that it was not the paint peeling off and it will be taken care of in the operational aircraft. I would like to leave it at that.

Keep watching and we are grateful for the support of aviation enthusiasts like you.

Best Wishes and Happy Landings.

Air Cmde Rohit Varma
PD (FT)
NFTC, ADA
Bangalore


Maybe someone in doubt about the MLG/exhaust position could write a letter.
Thats the right thing to do rather than wild speculation.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 18 Jun 2016 01:43

More images of the HTT-40..something very attractive about this airplane..

Image

Image

Image

Image

Kartik
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 18 Jun 2016 01:45

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nirav » 18 Jun 2016 01:46

Kartik wrote:hot exhaust visible here..how hot must it be to shimmer like that?


Difficult to gauge how hot it would be by the 'shimmer' but usually all sorts of hotter than ambient temp gases/air cause that shimmer ..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 18 Jun 2016 01:46

Image

Kartik
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 18 Jun 2016 01:49

Hope the mods don't get offended by so many pics being posted..they're not too large

Image

Image

Indranil
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 18 Jun 2016 02:23

nirav wrote:Took a while to dig it.

I recall a huge "debate" on the LCAs paint peeling off @ IOC..
Air Cmde Rohit Varma <****@*******.ada.gov.in>
Let me assure you that it was not the paint peeling off and it will be taken care of in the operational aircraft. I would like to leave it at that.


Thank you for sharing that. Obviously, that was not paint peeling off. I was planning to write what it was. But now, that I know that the Cmde would like leave it at that, I would follow suit. you can imagine that paint does not peel off in straight lines and perfect circles.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 18 Jun 2016 02:37

Karan,

It is flattering that you ask my opinion. I am not an expert by any stretch of imagination, but in my opinion, the finish is world class. However, I do have a few observations.

1. It has been some time since I have seen a military trainer with so many control rods sticking outside. These days one sees them only for trim tabs.
Image

2. It looks like they stitched together the canopy from some existing line. This allowed them to get to the flying prototype ASAP. A fantastic decision, if you ask me, but it robs the canopy of a smooth continuous curve. In terms of performance, it will probably not matter much, especially that of a BTT. However, it will be interesting to see if the production models have this.

3. I am sure that MLG and NLGs doors will come soon. HAL has stuck to the layout of the wheels placed inside of the MLG strut, same as in the HF-24, Kiran and the IJT. This layout requires shallower wells in the wing to store the retracted struts, but deeper wells in the fuselage for the retracted wheel. It makes sense in an HF-24 with thin wings, but not so much on a HTT-40 with thick wings.
Image

This layout also removes the option of the wheel with a hubcap forming the conforming surface (like in the 737s or the Grob G120) and its accompanying weight savings.
Image
Image

But then, the Kirans seem to have done fine with this layout and no covers for the wheel well at all.
Image

4. Another adverse effect of this layout is that it decreases the distance between the two MLG wheels which is unfavourable for austere field and cross wind performance.

5. On the other hand, the NLG hinged near the nose increases the distance between the NLG and the MLG wheels which positively affects the performance in the aforementioned criteria. This is also a welcome change in layout from the preliminary design.
Image

6. The landing gears are also long providing the aircraft a higher stance useful for austere field performance, ease of maintenance and weapon loading.

7. I don't know if it is a facet of the plane just starting its flight testing, but I am a little surprised with the amount of flap deflection on the take off roll.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 18 Jun 2016 02:51

Boost for “Made in India”, HAL demonstrates new trainer aircraft to Parrikar

Said HAL chairman, Suvarna Raju today: “... It is remarkable feat that the aircraft in its inaugural flight carried out low speed pass, a series of turns, high speed pass and short-landing using reverse thrust which is a unique feature available on this engine-propeller combination.”

Is it so? Even PT6A-based planes feature reverse thrust.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 18 Jun 2016 03:12

HAL seems to have given a dekho to the journalists of its IJT hangar/assembly line. When will it be set up at Kanpur?

Image

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