Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

[tsarkar]

The present impasse started in July with pardon for stone throwing brigade. And the BJP leadership in the state was party to this decision.

The PDP is a very dangerous party with both the late father and daughter pursuing a separatist agenda but simultaneously making false nationalist noises to the Indian Establishment that the establishment is not able to see through.

The problem is compounded by BJP wanting to keep its dysfunctional alliance state govt going by letting PDP play its dirty game.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1160706/j ... 7jUHYGXerU

Pardon for stone brigade

OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT
Srinagar, July 5: The Mehbooba Mufti government today unveiled a special Id gift for the Valley's stone-thrower brigade.

A spokesman said the Peoples Democratic Party-BJP government had approved withdrawal of 104 stone-throwing cases against 634 people. The development came a day after Mehbooba asked the government to review the cases of youths booked on such charges.

Thousands of youths have been booked over the years for throwing stones during protests, most of them during the agitations from 2008 to 20l0.

[Vivek K]

Tsarkarji ji, there are some items in the post that strike a chord with a lot of people- maybe not you and there is nothing wrong with that. I take my retort back.

Sometimes a basic story is embellished when it is told over and perhaps that is what happened here.

[tsarkar]

Vivek K, I completely understand and respect your sentiments. Unfortunately I am unable to edit my statements.

However, military and political actions need to be insulated from emotions. The 19 RR and J&K Police SOG did a fantastic clinical job. The life expectancy of any terrorist - local or foreign - is 3 weeks.

The entire gist of the Bhagvad Gita and Karma Yoga is not to be influenced by extraneous factors. The story of Drona teaching princes archery and only Arjun seeing the eye of the target bird emphasizes the same point.

False stories like this discredit the actual effort of soldiers and PM Modi.

Kashmir is a political problem that started in 80's with Saudi funding of mosques & madrasas and families like Abdullahs and Muftis playing for money & political power. However, I am hopeful that our inherent goodness will see this through.

[Singha]

at 0:19 of this ndtv video you can see new T72 base in SE ladakh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_F12kZcp2c

[ramana]

tsarkar or anyone, What are the minimum fitness standards for the infantry jawans? Are there only one set of standards for all forces?

[Prem]

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/ ... r0c7f.html
Let Indian military train in northern Australia, leading defence scholar says

Australia should give the Indian military access to Darwin and key training ranges in the far north as part of a deepening of defence ties to counterbalance the rise of China, a leading think-tank says.The report by the United States Studies Centre at the University of Sydney also says Australia should let India use its military airfield on the Cocos Islands for maritime surveillance and reconnaissance.Author David Brewster, an expert on South Asian security at the Australian National University, said it was vital that Australia was part of the rapid deepening of the defence relationship between the US and India, which he said was "streaking ahead"."The US-India strategic relationship is driven by several imperatives, the most immediate being the perceived threat presented by China to the regional order," the report states.Washington and New Delhi are due to sign in coming days a landmark deal giving one another access to their own military facilities, such as air bases and naval ports."This really opens the way for an Australian-Indian equivalent," Dr Brewster told Fairfax Media.

[ramana]

So Sir Olaf Caroe's seven circles are getting erased!

What does Rory Medcalf think?

[shiv]

There are some things I was never taught in school. Over the decades I assumed that maybe others know, but I now realize that my schooling was pretty much like what everyone else has. We are never taught about how the govt or legal system works. Surprisingly it works in many ways exactly as it should, and when laws are flouted they are often flouted where it is legally possible to flout them via loopholes.

Let me speak of a hypothetical scenario. There is a crowd of 50-60 young men in a riot, many or all throwing stones. What can the police do? They can disperse rioters with tear gas or more deadly weapons. In some cases police may be able to make mass arrests and cart people off in vans to police stations. If that is not possible - they will later look at videos, question suspects and make arrests.

What happens after that. Legally (AFAIK) the police can keep people in detention for up to 72 hours for some offences, but after that the person has to be produced in a court of law. But when you have a huge crowd in a police station, you have to individually document their names, addresses etc and then charge them with some offence. If a bunch of people are dumped in a police station, not all of them will be guilty of crimes, and not all crimes will be equally serious. But they have to be booked. Many will be booked for disorderly conduct or stone throwing. Some of these offences legally do not allow arrest and detention. They have to be let off after booking. That is the law

What this means is that every local police station where some disturbance has taken place will have 50-100 cases booked, all of which will have to be treated in the basis of the case booked, Disorderly conduct ppl may be let off but they will have cases against them and may have to come repeatedly to court 1, 2 or 3 or 5 years after that. Some of these people may not have committed serious offences but their careers will get screwed. They will not gets jobs or travel documents because they have police cases against them.

For reasons such as these, it makes sense to pardon many with the least serious offences after a warning. If they get caught repeatedly later the story will be different.

Remember that many Indian state governments are guilty of wanting police under their control. They employ sycophants and do not want to set aside money for better policing. That means under-manned police stations and one person sitting and manually booking cases in a register against 50-60 arrested rioters. After 8-10 hours of this the policemen will have been doing overtime and he simply may do a shoddy job of booking cases, or may cook up a charge to throw them in a cell and then let someone else deal with them next day. These issues occur everywhere in India but our social clas rarely face them, or at least we don;t understand until it hits us.

Sorry this is a post about police in the army thread

[tsarkar]

tsarkar or anyone, What are the minimum fitness standards for the infantry jawans? Are there only one set of standards for all forces?

These are maintained and updated by different regimental centers and published during recruitment. There are differences, for example minimum height for Gurkhas or Marathas are lower than Sikhs or Dogras.

Nutrition standards in India have significantly improved, as per a paper from Dr Subir Gokarn of RBI I once attended, and consequently, standards have risen upward over the years.

Even in China, there was a news report that tanks & other vehicles built based on anthropological data from the 60's and 70's can no longer accommodate better built soldiers born later.

Added later - Here are the officially published physical standards
http://joinindianarmy.nic.in/alpha/elig ... rocess.htm
http://joinindianarmy.nic.in/physical-fitness-test.htm

[vaibhav.n]

Tibetan chants and the ego---Lt Gen KJ Singh

Those of you who have been to the military station and passed the Shivalik Bird Sanctuary on the Main Avenue (also referred to as Kalwant Singh Marg) would recall a Zen Tibetan garden, which is looked after by Ladakh Scout boys. These simple Ladakhis, who are mostly stationed in Leh-Ladakh, have made Chandimandir their second home, as one of their battalions is stationed here in rotation.

One day, when I passed this place, I called the NCO, who was minding the place. Having served in Sikkim, I was bubbling with ideas, and told him that we should improve the place, add a prayer wheel, install a Buddha statue on an island in the lake and upgrade the eatery. His question was simple and straight, “Aap kaun?” Not used to such a query, I replied that I was the Army Commander. The punch followed instantly, “Lagta to nahin”. Instinctively, I asked him how was an Army Commander supposed to look like? Urgyen Tsering, with a toothy smile, explained to me that an Army Commander was preceded by some people, accompanied by an entourage and even has a follow-up element. Almost in an accusatory manner, he told me that over the last few days, he had seen me roaming around alone.

I could not dispute such a simple logic, and so I smiled and carried on with my walk.

As I was leaving for my office, I surprised my driver by asking him to change direction and drive towards the sanctuary. After all, I had to convince Urgyen that I was indeed the Army Commander. After he saw me, he was most apologetic, but I hugged him and we became friends. Like a loyal soldier, he took charge of the project — prayer wheel, mini island with a Buddha statue and a cosy eatery serving authentic Tibetan cuisine — which has come up very well. Meanwhile, I continued to follow Tagore’s Ekla chalo re. Even my new friend got used to it.

Do consider visiting the place and taking a walk on the plaza around the lake with the most soothing Tibetan chants. If you are a General, leave your ego behind, for there is nothing like walking alone and communicating with your inner self and, of course, the bonus is Urgyen’s smile to perk up your day!

[malushahi]

After all, I had to convince Urgyen that I was indeed the Army Commander.

said gent has been afflicted for a while with this nagging habit of trying to prove that he was the army commander

http://www.newindianexpress.com/thesund ... 444868.ece

whatever. there is a new army commander in town.

[Gagan]

at 0:19 of this ndtv video you can see new T72 base in SE ladakh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_F12kZcp2c

This is very bad.

[Karthik S]

These are maintained and updated by different regimental centers and published during recruitment. There are differences, for example minimum height for Gurkhas or Marathas are lower than Sikhs or Dogras.

I understand a pilot needs to be of certain height so that his legs fits in the cockpit, which is 99 cms IIRC. But why does height matter in infantry, that too different requirements for different regiments? Being taller doesn't necessarily translate to being fitter.

[malushahi]

short answer:

1. different requirements for different regiments - to maintain the class composition of individual regiments. how many ladakhis would one find that measure 170cm tall? (now don't come back with questions about why they would want to maintain class composition, because it is a can of worms).
2. within the same regiment - height and height-to-weight requirements have historically been used as a co-relational indicator to, among other things, malnutrition and disease.

[Gagan]

Ladakhis and people who live in hilly terrain are short in height because that way the heart can pump blood to every corner and supply oxygen more efficiently

[Khalsa]

Ladakhis and people who live in hilly terrain are short in height because that way the heart can pump blood to every corner and supply oxygen more efficiently

ummm there are many people and I mean MANY people in India who are shorter than them and they have a lot of people who are quite tall by standards.

I lived amongst them for 2 years and played soccer with them ... and I YES you are right ... they had more oxygen available in their blood than me.
They literally ran circles around us for man to man and we would compensate with more of a passing game.

The biggest reason for their Oxygen levels being higher than people from low altitude levels was the size of their lungs.
This was a study done thanks to Ladakhis finally allowing some post mortem happening after joining the circle of Public Health Care.

On a man to man , child to child and budha to budha.
Their lungs out matched us at any age.
The surface area of their lungs was said to be larger from 8% to 24% sometimes but the 24 % is more extreme. Army doctors said it was usually around 8%. This allowed more and faster exchange of Oxygen, let me stop myself from going into the specifics.

However being at higher altitude and being pushed to task, also kick started a small growth in the lung size of folks from the lower altitudes, however this would recede when there was no exercise at higher altitude or the troops returned to areas at Lower Altitude.

The height thing was not a biological reality but a physical trick in 90% of the cases.

See what everyone observed that when ladakhis climbed height + carrying massive loads in a basket with a strap on.

1. The strap was never only on their shoulders, another strap or part of the strap was on their head or forehead. They wanted to keep their hands and shoulders free. Their spine picked up a lot of load. Bear with me as this leads into the next point.

2. The Ladakhis when going uphill tended to bring their (spine) parallel to the slope sometimes even more.
It almost seemed to look like they were about to kiss the ground when going uphill.

This bending down was what created the impression they were of short stature. They were just being bloody super effecient.

[srin]

May be OT, but this is a travelogue of Tawang and Western Arunachal that I was going over the weekend.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/travelogu ... -pass.html

Good pics that depict the sorry state of the infrastructure. If it has - for a long time - been a deliberate policy to have bad roads on our side to slow down or halt a Chinese attack, the roads are in perfect condition for it ...

[wig]

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/commen ... 87239.html

Return of Haji Pir still haunts us

The Haji Pir Pass provides easy access to both Jammu and Kashmir regions. It also provides vastly shorter connectivity between the two regions. However, India returned the pass to Pakistan which has been infiltrating terrorists to cause trouble in Jammu & Kashmir for the last 27 years

At 10.30 am on 28th August, 51 years ago, a group of soldiers of the Army’s 1 Para led by Major (later Lieutenant General) Ranjit Singh Dayal wrested control of the Haji Pir Pass in Jammu and Kashmir, which for 18 years after partition had been under Pakistani occupation. A Pakistani counter attack the next day was effectively repulsed and by August 30, the Indian Army had established complete control over the Pass along with most peaks in the vicinity. It was, however, only with the capture of Kahuta in the vicinity on September 10 that the mouth of the Haji Pir Bulge was closed, the entire sector sealed and Pakistani resistance in the area brought to an end.
The initial victory had come after a 37-hour pitched battle by a stubbornly brave and innovative 1 Para against all odds comprising rain, slush, fog, a steep hostile terrain and, of course, enemy fire. The attack was part of a multi-pronged assault by a total of five Infantry battalions supported by the equivalent of two Artillery regiments to take the geographically and militarily important Haji Pir Bulge of which this Pass is the central feature. Interestingly, the taking of the Pass marked the Army’s only decisive and successful offensive military action undertaken from start to finish during the entire duration of the 1965 India-Pakistan War that had unofficially begun on 5th August with the first detection of Pakistani infiltrators and formally ended with an UN-directed ceasefire on 23rd September.
The 8,652 feet high Haji Pir Pass, a dominating feature located on the western fringe of the formidable Pir Panjal range that divides the Kashmir Valley from Jammu region, provides a direct road link between Poonch, located west of the Pir Panjal in Jammu region, and Uri, located across the mountain range in the Kashmir Valley. Apart from significantly reducing the road distance between Poonch and Uri to just 56 km compared to the current 282 km long revived old Mughal route via the Poonch Valley, Shopian and Srinagar, the Haji Pir Bulge provides a direct ingress to both the Jammu region and the Kashmir Valley. And it is through this since militarily heavy fortified Pass, infamously returned to Pakistan five months after its capture, that Islamabad has been infiltrating terrorists into J&K for the last 27 years.
The taking and return of the Pass is both as spectacular as it was infamous, respectively, in India’s military and diplomatic history. The military operation was necessitated because Pakistan then, as part of its dubious Operation Gibraltar, was using the Haji Pir Bulge to launch the main influx of its infiltration campaign into the Kashmir Valley. Pakistan had then also built huge stocks of arms, ammunition and supplies at several places in the Bulge for speedy administrative support to various raider groups. Thus the offensive action was intended to neutralise their logistical set up and plug ingress routes of the infiltrators. Five days before the launch of the attack, then Army Chief, General JN Chaudhury had emphasised on the necessity to take offensive action to throw the Pakistani Army off balance and compel it to react instead of India dancing to Pakistan’s tune as New Delhi had been doing until then.
The capture of the Haji Pir Bulge did put a dent in infiltration and unbalanced the Pakistanis. But then Pakistan’s grand design, as revealed three days later, involved launching Operation Grand Slam on September 1 comprising a major armour and Infantry thrust in blitzkrieg style reminiscent of Hitler’s Wehrmacht in the carefully selected Chhamb-Jaurian sector to capture the solitary bridge in Akhnoor followed by the town itself on the Jammu-Poonch highway. They were to then head to Jammu to capture the Jammu-Srinagar highway. In doing so, Pakistan would have wrested control of the land route to both the Jammu region and the Kashmir Valley thus severing the state from the rest of India. The plan was sound and the Pakistani Army nearly succeeded against an unprepared Indian Army that characteristically was lacking prior intelligence and was unable to militarily fully appreciate and anticipate the situation.
It was only after the Indian Army’s XI and I Corps, much to Pakistan’s surprise, crossed the international border into Pakistani Punjab and headed towards Lahore and Sialkot, respectively, on September 6 that India got much needed relief and was able to prevent a catastrophe. Pakistan responded by immediately withdrawing a major portion of its medium armour and artillery along with an Infantry brigade that saved Akhnoor bridge from capture in, what then Western Army Commander Lieutenant general Harbaksh Singh terms, ‘the nick of time’ in his book War Despatches.
The Tashkent Agreement signed on January 10, 1966, entailed the withdrawal of armed forces personnel to positions that existed prior to August 5 1965. This status quo ante included return of the bravely fought Haji Pir Pass captured with considerable grit and determination not to forget human and material cost. Some Indian Army officers point to that fact that had it not been done, the Indian Army would have then found the Pakistani Army permanently positioned just 4 km from Akhnoor making it possible for them to swiftly attack the area later on. India missed the bus in 1971 when it could have attempted to recapture Haji Pir. By returning the Pass or not subsequently regaining it, India lost a strategic advantage. As late Lieutenant General Dayal, the hero of the Battle for Haji Pir, subsequently said, “The Pass would have given India a definite strategic advantage. It was a mistake to hand it back. Our people don’t read maps”.

[Prem]

[arshyam]

A significant change that was long overdue.

Army sets up design bureau to reduce dependence on imports - Dinaker Peri, The Hindu

In an attempt to indigenise procurements and reduce import dependence as part of the government’s ‘Make in India’ initiative, the Army on Tuesday formally announced the establishment of the Army Design Bureau which will integrate various stake holders in its long-term requirements.

This was announced by Army Chief General Dalbir Singh at an Army seminar on Make in India where he also launched the ‘Make in India Army Website’ meant to serve as a one stop platform for information to vendors.

‘Single point contact’

“We have established an Army Design Bureau which will help in firstly fast tracking our procurement process and secondly help in modernisation. This will be a single point contact for all stakeholders,” Gen. Singh told reporters on the side-lines of the event. He also noted that a large part of the spares in the Army’s inventory of imported items did not involve high-end technology and as such could be made by domestic Industries.

The Army has identified ten projects under ‘Make’ category for manufacturing by domestic defence industry. These include 125 mm smooth bore barrel guns, improved ammunition for T-72 and T-90 tanks, 1000 HP engines for T-72 tanks, environment control unit and auxiliary power units for T-90 tanks, advanced pilotless target aircrafts, manoeuvrable expendable aerial targets among others.

Officials said that the Army was going to publish a comprehensive compendium listing out specific problem areas for the industry and research fraternity to propose solutions. The idea was to bring together academic institutions and the industry to develop indigenous knowhow and for this the Army is open to sharing parts of its long-term plans.

]]

[wig]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 864589.cms

Survey finds 30% overweight

A study on the health of Indian Army personnel has thrown up worrying results. Four out of five personnel surveyed, including officers, were found suffering from pre-hypertension, about a third were overweight and two-thirds had low levels of good cholesterol (HDL), caused by lack of exercise. he sample survey was conducted by the defence ministry and Indian Council of Medical Research on 767 'healthy' personnel including 130 officers. Their ages ranged from 18 to 50 years.

The study also found a majority of the personnel had bad eating habits. Most of them added salt or pickle to their food and used ghee/butter regularly.

Alarmingly, the prevalence of pre-hypertension in the group was higher than in the general population. While 40-60% of Indians show these symptoms, it was as high as 80% among the Armymen. Pre-hypertension is a risk factor for heart disease and is characterized by mildly high blood pressure - 120-139mm Hg systolic pressure and a diastolic pressure of 80-89.
Almost 67% were found to have low HDL cholesterol level - a sign of low physical activity. More embarrassingly, 30% had a body-mass ratio of over 23, putting them in the overweight category.

Young Armymen must cut down on smoking and go easy with their salt and ghee, says a recent survey that found more than 80% personnel suffering from pre-hypertension, a risk factor for heart disease.

"Lifestyle modifications such as reducing the intake of saturated fats and salt in diet and reducing smoking can achieve a downward shift in the overall blood pressure, thus reducing the risk of hypertension and cardiovascular disease," says the survey conducted by the defence ministry and Indian Council of Medical Research.


The study, published in the latest issue of the Indian Journal of Medical Research, was conducted over two years. Of 767 personnel studied, 670 were married. Personnel with known history of ischemic heart disease, hypertension, obesity and diabetes were excluded from the study and only "healthy" ones included.


Most of the soldiers identified as pre-hypertensive were in the habit of using extra salt and pickles and had a lot of ghee or butter. "In the Army, we have an authorization scale for ration which includes fresh vegetables, fruits, bread, butter, rice and milk among others. But people also eat from outside. The diet differs from person to person," an Army officer said.

[wig]

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 89547.html

Month on, Western Command under ad hoc arrangement

he operationally crucial Western Command continues to function under an ad hoc arrangement over a month after the last General Officer Commanding-in-Chief retired, a situation described in some quarters as unprecedented and intriguing.
Lt Gen Ashok Ambre, General Officer Commanding (GOC) of the Yol-based 9 Corps was today named the new officiating Western Army Commander after Lt Gen JS Cheema, GOC 11 Corps, Jalandhar, who was appointed as the officiating Commander when Lt Gen KJ Singh retired on August 31, moved to Army Headquarters as the Director General (Infantry).
Lt Gen BS Sahrawat, a December 1980-batch officer from the Kumaon Regiment who was earlier serving as Director General (Land, Works and Environment) at Army Headquarters, took over as the GOC 11 Corps today.
Lt Gen Ambre is the senior most of the three corps commander in the Western Command. Army sources said the orders for the appointment of a regular Army Commander are expected to be issued soon.
Two Lieutenant Generals — DR Soni, an Armoured Corps Officer who commanded Bathinda-based 10 Corps and Surinder Singh, a Mechanised Infantry (Guards) Officer who commanded 33 Corps in Silliguri — are slated to be elevated as Army Commanders. Lt Gen Soni, the senior of the two, is tipped for taking over as the GOC-in-C, Army Training Command at Shimla, a post which fell vacant on September 1.
Lt Gen Surinder is tipped for heading the Western Command at Chandimandir. Pending their new appointments, both officers are at present attached to different formations after having completed their tenures as Corps Commanders. Lt Gen Soni had relinquished charge as Corps Commander in June end, while Lt Gen Surinder Singh moved out from Silliguri last week.

[shiv]

How we pushed Pak out of the Batalik Sector
Story from 2000

We made a bid for additional heavy weapons and soon managed the allotment of two L 70 anti-aircraft guns, two 75/24 MM mountain guns, six anti-tank recoilless guns and 12 extra machine guns. Most of these weapons were either obsolete or were not fit for their primary role (due to defects) and were allotted without crews. The self-reliant infantry battalions rose to the occasion. We got help from artillery and air defence units to train the jawans to handle the L 70 and 75/24 MM mountain guns. Other additional weapons were infantry weapons and posed little problem.

To maintain surprise, the movement was only at night. By first light, the weapons were camouflaged in situation and movement commenced again after last light. The ‘man days’ were put in by both by soldiers and civilian labour, consisting of local Ladakhis/Balti Aryans and Gurkhas, and even Biharis who had reached the sector for better wages. The role of Zanskar ponies – the most surefooted animal in the world – and small donkeys (popularly known as SDs) was notable. While the former is a handsome animal, the latter is exactly the opposite: smaller than normal donkeys, sickly and relatively ugly. At first sight, it appeared that this unique animal of the area will never carry a load as its thin legs barely supported its own weight. Yet, it could carry 40-50 kg weight. More than that, it was shown the general direction and asked to move with a peculiar call by the owners and it never stopped thereafter. We also bent the rules for this herculean task and tripled the daily wages for men, ponies and small donkeys. Consequently, many audit observations had to be answered later.

To our amusement, the Pakistani troops would request for special numbers of choice from posts that were in shouting distance.

But this bonhomie was short lived as we had decided that the issue of moral ascendency had to be settled once and for all.

It was a bright sunny day after a week of bad weather and Pakistani troops were busy sunning themselves. On a code word, all hell broke loose. We engaged all posts, but the ones which were dominated by us received special attention. Surprise was total and the enemy troops were caught unawares in the open. In the critical first two minutes, substantial casualties were caused before the troops scurried for cover of the bunkers. We then focussed on the bunkers, which, compared to ours, were in a poor state. The heavier L 70 Air defence gun, which fires 330 rounds per minute, and 75/24 mountain gun wreaked havoc. The training and effort put in to haul them to the posts had paid dividends.

There is a misinformed perception that our rules of engagement are strict and rigidly-controlled by higher headquarters, with troops having no freedom of action to fire on the LOC as opposed to the adversary. Nothing could be further away from the truth.

...read it all

[Mollick.R]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 025273.cms

Defence ministry sources on Monday said a contract for 1,58,279 light-weight ballistic helmets, worth around Rs 170 crore, is on the anvil now.

Similarly, the proposed purchase of the ballistic helmets -with 13mm trauma protection pads -is slated to take place from an Indian manufacturer, MKU.The helmets for "commanders" will also be equipped with integrated communication headsets.

[Kashi]

An unusually favourable piece by Brig. Gurmeet Kanwal (of the withdraw from Kargil fame)

[url=xxxhttp://www.rediff.com/news/column/afspa-the-ar ... 160906.htm]AFSPA: The Army needs it![/url]

'Army personnel must be given immunity but such immunity must not be absolute, nor is it so under the present Armed Forces Special Powers Act.' Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal (retd) lists why India must not do away with the controversial AFSPA, but ensure enough transparency to avoid confrontation with human rights.

[rkhanna]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 025273.cms

Defence ministry sources on Monday said a contract for 1,58,279 light-weight ballistic helmets, worth around Rs 170 crore, is on the anvil now.

Similarly, the proposed purchase of the ballistic helmets -with 13mm trauma protection pads -is slated to take place from an Indian manufacturer, MKU.The helmets for "commanders" will also be equipped with integrated communication headsets.

Photo Credits Kunal Biswas DFI

[wig]

After what must be 6 weeks the western army commander is appointed

Lt Gen Surinder Singh takes charge as Western Command chief
Prior to this, he was on attachment to the Deputy Chief of Army Staff’s Branch at the Army Headquarters in New Delhi after having completed his tenure as the GOC, 33 Corps at Siliguri in the last week of August.
Upon his arrival at the Western Command headquarters, he laid a wreath at Veer Smriti war memorial to pay homage to the martyrs and reviewed a guard of honour. He thereafter met senior officers and took stock of the operational situation and administrative aspects of the command.
Commissioned in 1979 into the Second Battalion of the Brigade of The Guards, Lt Gen Surinder has held prestigious command, staff and instructional posts. He is a graduate of the British Army Command Staff College, Army War College and the National Defence College.
The post of the GOC-in-C, Western Command, had been vacant since August 31 after Lt Gen KJ Singh retired. An ad hoc arrangement was continuing for the past one-and-a-half months with the senior-most Corps Commander in the Western Command officiating as the GOC-in-C.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 96946.html

[wig]

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/himach ... 96728.html

Lt Gen DR Soni took over as GOC of ARTRAC

He replaced Lt Gen PM Hariz, who has taken over as GOC-in-Chief, Southern Command, at Pune.
Commissioned in the Central India Horse in June 1979, an alumnus of the National Defence Academy, Pune, and the Indian Military Academy, Dehradun, Lt Gen Soni tenanted important command, staff and instructional appointments.
He commanded Armoured Brigade, Armoured Division and the Bathinda Corps and also attended the Defence College of Management and Technology at Shrivenham, UK, and earned the distinction of holding a Masters degree in global security from Cranfield University, UK.
Lt Gen Soni is married to Col Suman Soni, a gynaecologist who served in the Army for 22 years

[darshhan]

x-post

cold start etc is good. but this is what Indian army needs to prepare for.

Deep Operations

[Hitesh]

That is obsolete now. It has largely been superseded by the Air Land Battle doctrine prepared by the US and used to great effect in the Kuwait war.

[Gagan]

So Sir Olaf Caroe's seven circles are getting erased!

What does Rory Medcalf think?

Ramana ji please elaborate on the 7 circles

[Paul]

US strategists are worried about not enough enough experience in taking on enemy in a conventional battle. Last 20 years of COIN ops has degraded their Armor, Infantry and Artilley to name a few. Their Euro NATO allies will struggle to deploy a full division of armor against the Russians. Iraq/Kuwait is fine but it will be a different story in East Europe or NE Asia. They will be taking on an adversary armed to the gills with missiles and with ECM expertise as good as they will get.

Remains to be seen how they will fare in this scenario.

It is fine and dandy for Bharat Karnad to say let tone down the armor but armor is what holds the ground gives the nails to hang on in a tough battle. By the time the mountain corps is fully raised we will see 100s of tanks and other armored vehicles facing the PLA in Aksai Chin and Sikkim.

[rohitvats]

That is obsolete now. It has largely been superseded by the Air Land Battle doctrine prepared by the US and used to great effect in the Kuwait war.

My dear good sir, the Air-Land Battle doctrine emerged as a counter to Soviet Deep Battle doctrine and its employment of Operational Maneuver Groups. As was the rationale behind using 'tactical' nuclear weapons. It was the Deep Battle concept which formalized the use of artillery as a 'maneuver arm'. It is called 'maneuver by fire' and called for massed artillery fire assaults using all means possible. Much before German Blitzkrieg became fashionable, Russians generals had evolved Deep Battle concept which employed combined arms tactics.

[chetak]

Syed Ata Hasnain ‏@atahasnain53 15h15 hours ago

Uri attack, this is my old HQ.Warned the Cdr specifically on 8 Sep. Happened in 10 days. Done to remove pressure from hinterland army move

594 retweets 391 likes

[rkhanna]

Why our casualties were so high:

The map retrieved from the terrorists revealed that they were to kill unarmed troops, then storm a medical aid unit near the brigade administrative block and blow themselves up in the officers' mess.

Sources said the suicide squad attackecd the administrative block where unarmed soldiers were refilling diesel in barrels from fuel tanks. The terrorists lobbed 17 grenades in three minutes, which ignited the dump and resulted in a massive fire burning barracks and tents in a 150-metre radius. Thirteen soldiers were burnt alive instantaneously and 32 soldiers were critically injured with severe burns.


Since the barracks were vacant, the terrorists took a defensive position in the side barracks of two floors and 16 rooms.

Later, four commandoes stormed the building and eliminated the other three terrorists


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...h ... 398406.cms

Dont know how accurate these reports are but if true...this is unforgivable

The security establishment is probing a two-point breach, first at the Line of Control (LoC) at Uri and the second at the perimeter of the Army base that saw the fencing wire being cut. The two lapses helped suspected Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM)+ fidayeen access the heavily-guarded camp and execute one of the deadliest suicide attacks in J&K.

The possibility that those on sentry duty were not sufficiently alert is learnt to have figured in the review meeting called by home minister Rajnath Singh, with the attendees considering it a serious lapse in view of the lesson from Pathankot where a fidayeen squad of Jaish infiltrated the strategically crucial air base, and because of Pakistan's attempt to cause upheaval in J&K.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...s ... 398809.cms

[Hitesh]

That is obsolete now. It has largely been superseded by the Air Land Battle doctrine prepared by the US and used to great effect in the Kuwait war.

My dear good sir, the Air-Land Battle doctrine emerged as a counter to Soviet Deep Battle doctrine and its employment of Operational Maneuver Groups. As was the rationale behind using 'tactical' nuclear weapons. It was the Deep Battle concept which formalized the use of artillery as a 'maneuver arm'. It is called 'maneuver by fire' and called for massed artillery fire assaults using all means possible. Much before German Blitzkrieg became fashionable, Russians generals had evolved Deep Battle concept which employed combined arms tactics.

Yes and it has been overtaken by the Air Land Battle and now the net centric strategy called the full spectrum dominance which centers on destroying the enemy kill chain before it could be brought up to bear against the US.

Massed artillery fire assaults are now vulnerable to smart munitions and cluster bombs and counter artillery battery operations. You can only use massed artillery fire assaults after you establish air dominance and EM spectrum dominance, i.e., not allowing the enemy counter battery radars to work.

[ramana]

rkhanna, Thanks, for posting that. Vicky Nanjappa says all this happened in 4 minutes. The most casualties are from burns. This fact hasn't come up at all.

[Bhaskar_T]

Bandhu Warriors - I am out of ammunition, kindly provide some. My Pakistani colleague (senior in office, Naved Akram) over lunch gave me the reference of article below (indeed 2008, an old one) and said Laungewala was faked by Indian Army, major credit goes to IAF hunters. Whereas the impression I have from movie "Border" and other articles is that Indian Army did their best against numerically adverse conditions and in the morning, with the support from IAF, the battle was converted into a decisive victory.

So, what Major General Atma Singh is saying below is True or False? Major says, the ground operations were faked.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india/arm ... CHhFL.html

The splendid victory achieved by our army in the battle of Laungewala during the 14-day 1971 India-Pakistan war was faked, a soldier awarded a military decoration in those operations has said. It was actually our air force that crushed the Pakistanis.

Major General Atma Singh (retd), who won the Vir Chakra for gallantry at Laungewala, told Hindustan Times that no ground battle was fought and the army had merely rehearsed it on a sand model after the ceasefire to cover up the incompetence of senior military commanders.

The army had last week presented Defence Minister AK Antony a blow-by-blow account of how Major KS Chandpuri (later brigadier) leading just 100 men had frustrated a formidable attack by a Pakistani brigade (some 2,800 troops) backed by an armoured regiment of 45 tanks. Chandpuri was given the Maha Vir Chakra. His alpha company (23 Punjab) won six gallantry awards. The army’s role in the battle had motivated generations and also inspired the Bollywood hit Border.

Atma Singh was then commanding the No 12 Air Observation Post (AOP) flight, tasked with directing close air support firepower towards enemy targets on the ground. “I dispute the ground battle completely. It is a mockery of army ethos,” he said. “We are teaching military history to future commanders citing battle accounts with no credibility. IAF’s Hunter fighters saved the day.” Atma Singh’s AOP flight of five Krishak light recce aircraft undertook 80 sorties and logged more than 110 flying hours.

Colonel PS Sangha (retd), who also served 12 AOP and was awarded a VrC, said Laungewala was an air force victory without doubt. Fighter pilots won eight Vir Chakras in that battle.

A senior officer in the army headquarters dismissed doubts on the army’s accomplishments in the battle. The officer said: "It was a moment of glory. The combat ratio of 27:1 was in the enemy's favour. That's why we presented a simulated version of the action at Laungewala to the defence minister." Antony had dubbed it a "fascinating battle".

According to the army, Chandpuri's and his men -- equipped with recoilless guns, medium machine guns, 81 mm mortars and small arms -- had engaged enemy armour. Atma Singh refuted it. "There were no signs of ground battle. I was out there in no man's land after an emergency landing at the Laungewala helipad. The enemy suffered no casualty in men or material till a Hunter hit their first T-59 tank."

Chandpuri regretted that the army's role in the battle was being questioned. He said the contribution of ground troops was in no way inferior to the IAF. "The troops on the ground fought against the enemy. The IAF hardly faced any opposition. The air force operated freely as the enemy had not scrambled its fighters," he said.

The scary prospect of being overrun by the enemy had made Chandpuri's men slightly edgy. But the army says his high standards of leadership motivated his men to fight to finish.

Major General Ian Cardozo (retd), who has authored several books on military history, said, "Truth is the first casualty of war worldwide. The fact is that the air force saved the day. But the army deserves credit for standing fast and holding the line despite overwhelming enemy forces."

[prahaar]

Tell your Paki colleague that PA was held in place by the right posturing and landmines which prompted the thrust to pause for the night. IAF or IA , who delivered the final GPL is now a matter of academic interest. But incontrovertible fact is that PA failed to make a breakthrough in spite of clear superiority in terms of equipment and manpower. Illustrating superiority of India armed forces personnel.

[shiv]

Bandhu Warriors - I am out of ammunition, kindly provide some. My Pakistani colleague (senior in office, Naved Akram) over lunch gave me the reference of article below (indeed 2008, an old one) and said Laungewala was faked by Indian Army, major credit goes to IAF hunters. Whereas the impression I have from movie "Border" and other articles is that Indian Army did their best against numerically adverse conditions and in the morning, with the support from IAF, the battle was converted into a decisive victory.

Sorry to say but the Paki is correct. I heard a complete account of the action from my (now deceased) cousin Wg Cdr "Kukke" Suresh who took part in the Longewala action as one of the 11 Hunter pilots

The army had virtually no chance of winning the battle. The main Indian army column had crossed the border 2 days away in the north to attack Rahim yar Khan. Only 120 men were left facing 60 plus tanks. But no one can take away credit from Maj Kuldip Singh Chandpuri and the small army contingent of 120 men for holding up the huge tank attack at night by giving them all they had - making the Pakis think that there was a hu-uge Indian defending force. the next day they would have been overrun - they had no chance- but the Hunters started at first light. It was the air force that killed the attack. I recall my cousin saying he felt bad for a Paki driver whom he saw jumping with his clothes on fire out of a truck that he shot up with 30 mm cannon

There is also another great army hero that Border did not feature - Maj Atma Singh - an incredibly brave AOP pilot who guided the Hunters to the Paki tanks in a light unarmed plane that even had to force land in the battle zone. Hunters gave fire cover to Atma Singh while he fixed the plane and took off again

I have told the story as I heard it from my cousin in January 1972 a month after the war, and several times thereafter. there are other accounts as well. "Border" the movie was a cooked up story.

The story as I heard it from my cousin was made into a video by me. Here it is. Sorry it was made in low-bandwidth days
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVWY6aUpY90