Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 24 Aug 2016 01:02

Why share the link and spread the documents?

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 24 Aug 2016 01:23

I wouldn't trust any western weapon. Sorry IN needs to support local sub design and builders.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 24 Aug 2016 01:35

^^ Its already on Twitter and by tomorrow it will be all over the place.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Aug 2016 01:39

The hits just keep on coming for the submarine arm

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 24 Aug 2016 01:43

All the more reason to go indigenous and make the SSN's.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Aug 2016 01:50

Yeah, but what do we do with the six submarines that are in various stages of completion?

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 24 Aug 2016 02:02

Sell them to Taiwan.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 24 Aug 2016 02:18

The leaked papers
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nationa ... a4d42db39e

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Aug 2016 02:35

A BIG thanks to The Australian for posting it

You need subscription. Paks are beggars, so they will run to China to finance the subscription.

shashankk · Post by **shashankk** » 24 Aug 2016 04:03

Its a serious breach and I really hope there are some scope of modifications in structure/components to at least reduce impact of damage by leaks. We cannot afford to discard these costly subs.

I guess signing of any new deal with France is almost over and its win win america. That makes me wonder of Americans or maybe Russians are involved in this leak.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 24 Aug 2016 05:10

Scuttle the P-75I and let's go for our own SSNs. It's not even that the diesel subs are considerably cheaper than SSNs. The 6000T Arihant is of the right size for an SSN. Let's get some design help from the Russians if need be and get on with SSNs. Imagine the morale of sailors in Kalvari class.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 24 Aug 2016 05:22

This is definetly done by westerners, also they tend to influence Australian boat competition and malign DCNS.
The crux is why to show publically that they have the information , some intel agencies even though they have such a prized gold in their possession remain in zen state.

Why now and who gets benefited are the two questions we need to discuss in detail ?

I guess we need separate thread for this or if MODs suggest we discuss in another thread?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 24 Aug 2016 05:28

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/566 ... -port.html

New Navy destroyer to be named after Goa port

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar's home state of Goa is set to find a permanent place in India’s naval history as the Navy’s next destroyer would be named INS Mormugao, after the state’s main port.

On September 17, INS Mormugao will set sail from Mazgaon dock in Mumbai for sea trial, which is likely to continue for close to two years before the 7300-tonne warship with Barak-8 long-range missiles is inducted into the Navy.

The ship has been named after Goa's picturesque main port, which featured in several movies.

From the days of the Portuguese and the Sultans of Bijapur, the port city has a rich history, which the Navy felt would put the Goan city in the same league as Kochi or Mysuru, which found a place in the Navy’s hall of fame.

Almost 15 years ago, when the Atal Bihari Vajpayee government cleared indigenous construction of a large number of guided missile destroyers with advanced features as a follow up to the Delhi-class destroyers, it was planned to name them after state capitals like Kolkata and Chennai.

The scheme was later modified by the UPA government that also incorporated coastal cities into the nomenclature.

As a result, the first three ships under the Project-15A were named as INS Kolkata, INS Kochi and INS Chennai. The first ship, INS Kolkata, was commissioned in August 2014.

Since both Kolkata and Chennai are also important ports, besides being state capitals, they fit the nomenclature either way.

In the next batch, four ships under Project-15B are planned at a cost of Rs 29,345 crore. The first one, INS Visakhapatnam, was launched in April 2015 and will be commissioned by 2018.

INS Mormugao is the next one in the line, to be followed by INS Paradip (representing Odisha), while the last ship in the series would be named after a coastal city in Gujarat, which has the longest coastline among the states.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 24 Aug 2016 06:13

Guru's I have a theory any idea if additional follow on 3 submarines ordered from DCNS? or is it coming for clearance by CCS ? Timing could very well be non coincidental. Again why would an intel agency leak secrets of the opponents that they possess, looks to be more of business war in the leak

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Aug 2016 06:46

http://qz.com/764665/764665/
Over 20,000 pages of top-secret data about India’s mega submarine project leaked, says The Australian

The leaked documents list out the frequencies at which the submarines gather intelligence and the levels of noise the subs make at various speeds, the news report said. They also contain information on the submarine’s diving depths, range, and endurance, besides its magnetic, electromagnetic, and infrared data.
It is not yet clear how, where, and to whom the top-secret information was leaked.
Nevertheless, India’s naval strategies may suffer grievously following this development, particularly if the leaked documents are made available to India’s rivals Pakistan and China.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 24 Aug 2016 06:53

This deal has been murky from the start. Could have been intentional leak by someone in the gov, carelessness, or foreign intelligence. Could have been the Russians. They may have played dirty anyway so this may be pay back.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Aug 2016 06:55

I was thinking the same. If those guys can shake the billary camp, then India is nothing

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 24 Aug 2016 06:58

Good riddance. I hope the 6 SSN's are pushed through fast. I am against western weapons anyway.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 24 Aug 2016 07:26

SaiK wrote:I was thinking the same. If those guys can shake the billary camp, then India is nothing

Yeah, we have to get our act together on the counter intelligence front.

Bheeshma wrote:Good riddance. I hope the 6 SSN's are pushed through fast. I am against western weapons anyway.

Feel the same way. Fire it up.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 24 Aug 2016 08:11

RoyG and Saik Guru, I do not doubt capabilities of Ruskies however they will not remain in good books of Desh if it was found out that they were to be behind it, Also why publicaly humiliate Desh when they could have shared the same thing in private that look if we could get it , it could already be with Chinis and NaPakis.

This was an act to humiliate desh and or DCNS make them outcast so that we cannot have them as partners even if we wish. There is more than it meets the eye. Anyways I do not doubt Masa, Ruskies or any big power already has the info but the million dollar question is why to go public that we have that information and India can take counter measures for the same unless we were planning something big in the near future and scorpenes form a big part of that plan

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 24 Aug 2016 08:14

krishna_krishna wrote: Anyways I do not doubt Masa, Ruskies or any big power already has the info but the million dollar question is why to go public that we have that information and India can take counter measures for the same unless we were planning something big in the near future and scorpenes form a big part of that plan

It would mean someone is trying to help us by warning us before hand.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 24 Aug 2016 08:21

^^^ Why not share those details in private I mean like anonymous envelope send to MOD ? , the way I see it the countries that get to benefit are Amrika, Ruskies and Germany in that order

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 24 Aug 2016 08:28

Well, even if the details were shared privately, it would still benefit same set of countries. The fact is that others know classified data regarding our submarine. Going forward atleast, hope we make our own stuff and give other countries similar leverage on our security matters.

chaitanya · Post by **chaitanya** » 24 Aug 2016 08:46

Are we sure that this info is real? Maybe incorrect information has been released and it this release is more of a veiled threat... Need to wait for the official line on this.

Regardless, always best to go for desi maal

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Aug 2016 08:58

check out this article from a few months back...

Scorpenes to become Navy’s mainstay
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/s ... 663565.ece

“This second workshop will cater to building additional submarines as and when the government takes a decision. We will be in a position to quickly begin work once approved,” an MDL official said. Having once abandoned the German HDW submarine line in the past, government sources said they were determined not to lose the technical expertise and skilled manpower gained from construction of the six Scorpenes. In view of that, the number of additional Scorpenes could go beyond nine, one official said.

That did not go too well with some

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 24 Aug 2016 08:59

Karthik S wrote:Well, even if the details were shared privately, it would still benefit same set of countries. The fact is that others know classified data regarding our submarine. Going forward atleast, hope we make our own stuff and give other countries similar leverage on our security matters.

Others anyways know. If the data was stolen in 2011, do you think the thief would have just released it in 2016, without making enough money selling it to various intelligence agencies?

And intelligence agencies around the world are much too clever to depend on these small timer thieves or leave any traces of their involvement. This has money/business written all over it. I am surprised there is no strong official reaction from MoD or PMO yet. Timing is impeccable and has left Indian scorpenes bare and I hope they dont make another bofors out of this.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Aug 2016 09:02

As per Livefist, the MoD is set to make a statement on the Scorpene Leak shortly...

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/768283154138398720

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 24 Aug 2016 09:29

Rakesh wrote:A BIG thanks to The Australian for posting it

You need subscription. Paks are beggars, so they will run to China to finance the subscription.

The data has been floating and being sold since 2011. Australian has published about it now. I am pretty sure Chinese and hence Pakis have it by now.

All local mods are the only things that will be unknown to the Pakis.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Aug 2016 09:34

there are no local mods or equipment on the scorpene. we are even buying exocets SM39 for it.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 24 Aug 2016 09:37

Singha wrote:there are no local mods or equipment on the scorpene. we are even buying exocets SM39 for it.

I hope there are some, or these submarines are fully exposed to the enemy.

asgkhan · Post by **asgkhan** » 24 Aug 2016 10:27

Documents are available for public view @

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nationa ... a4d42db39e

https://theaustralianatnewscorpau.files ... ent-11.pdf
https://theaustralianatnewscorpau.files ... ent-21.pdf
https://theaustralianatnewscorpau.files ... ment-3.pdf

disha · Post by **disha** » 24 Aug 2016 10:43

Going through the PDF., it is a hit to both DCNS and India. Certain parts can be changed like the electronic communications and frequency etc. But some information is very strategic and it does expose our scorpene submarine fleet completely!

The leak appears originated from France/DCNS. It is their material. Some of it is not 'top secret' but 'confidential' which any buyer would be able to get something like a sales engineers slide deck. That is not what is important. But what is important can only be gauged by IN going through the leaked documents and taking counter measures.

wig · Post by **wig** » 24 Aug 2016 11:03

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/top-secr ... rt-1449447

regarding the scorpene
this appears to be the IN line on the leak. The leak of info dates back to 2011

"I understand there has been a hacking...we will identify (it)," said Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar. Navy sources said they are confident that the leak took place "outside India" and stressed that "the damage does not seem to be substantial" even as analysts in Australia suggested that's not correct. The Australian newspaper reported that the leak occurred in France in 2011. At the moment, it's unclear where the leak of data came from France or India, where the six Indian submarines are being built at the Mazegaon docks as part of a deal with DCNS, the French shipbuilder.

wig · Post by **wig** » 24 Aug 2016 11:06

Scorpene Submarines the statement on the site of the Press Info Bureau(PIB)

A case of suspected leak of documents related to Scorpene submarines has been reported by a foreign media house.

The available information is being examined at Integrated Headquarters, Ministry of Defence (Navy) and an analysis is being carried out by the concerned specialists.

It appears that the source of leak is from overseas and not in India.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=0

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Aug 2016 11:20

the data on all the noise levels is highly classified for any submarine.

we must assume the pakis and cheen have all the data and have already tuned their threat signature libraries even before we induct the scorpenes. nice.

desi designs are the only way forward and making sure our info is tight.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 24 Aug 2016 11:23

The six SSN's need to be made by L&T pronto. The SSK deal with euros was always dicey. Shd have learnt the lesson with Type-209, thankfully it will end all euro weapon sales to IN soon.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 24 Aug 2016 11:36

Wasn't the plan to add DRDO fuel cell etc on the last two subs? They should start adding that from third one and modify as needed. Otherwise these subs can only be used for tourism.

kit · Post by **kit** » 24 Aug 2016 11:48

Interesting possibilities to who might have leaked this much info .. and unprecedented too . Wonder if the MOD decision to make the scorpene a mainstay has something to do with the leak now ..granted the real leak happened way before .. so there are two leaks .. the real one and the next one to general public .. the intentions seem different

Will · Post by **Will** » 24 Aug 2016 11:52

Would be idiotic to buy additional scorpenes now. The woes of the submarine arm continue.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 24 Aug 2016 11:56

Rakesh wrote:A BIG thanks to The Australian for posting it

You need subscription. Paks are beggars, so they will run to China to finance the subscription.

No need for subscription. They have shared 3 docs, you can download them. At least they removed the numbers. I am not sure if NDTV would have shown same curtsey. Anyways the report says the data was perhaps taken out in 2011 itself. In all probability its already with all those who want it badly.

PS: Just saw the links are already posted.

Well some of the things could be salvaged but when enemy has stuff like propeller data which can be used for detecting the sub, you can't change propeller just like that. I think going by the type and quantum of data, its going to be really expensive or even impossible to salvage the damage completely.