Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Indranil
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Indranil »

Is Pralay renamed Prahaar/Pragati?

NAG is being renamed to PROSPINA?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by PratikDas »

indranilroy wrote:Is Pralay renamed Prahaar/Pragati?

NAG is being renamed to PROSPINA?
According to this jig specification, Pralay's diameter is 740 mm, i.e. the same as Shaurya. Prahaar's diameter is 0.42 m.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by shiv »

Cross posting:

Any theories/explanations folks
shiv wrote:
shiv wrote:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 715366.cms
Paper version also says S-400 can save 40,000 cr because it will do the job of all those projects
Image

What does this mean - from the deadwood version
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Indranil »

PratikDas wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Is Pralay renamed Prahaar/Pragati?

NAG is being renamed to PROSPINA?
According to this jig specification, Pralay's diameter is 740 mm, i.e. the same as Shaurya. Prahaar's diameter is 0.42 m.
Excellent find! It gives me some direction. Let me dig around a little more.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Indranil »

Nothing came up. I am wondering if it is lengthened Shaurya for longer reach or not.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by PratikDas »

indranilroy wrote:Nothing came up. I am wondering if it is lengthened Shaurya for longer reach or not.
There seems to be a lot going on around ceramic radomes for Pralay, going by Google results for drdo.gov.in. Also, that all of this is being coordinated by RCI and not ASL or DRDL is bolstering my speculation that Pralay is a repurposed Shaurya - perhaps with a seeker now. Brahmos would then be the 300 km, 300 kg gatecrasher and Pralay would be the 700 km, 1000 kg dam buster.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by sudhan »

Pralay probably has a naval twin (Like Sagarika and Shourya) which is tasked with an Anti-Shipping role..
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Indranil »

PratikDas wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Nothing came up. I am wondering if it is lengthened Shaurya for longer reach or not.
There seems to be a lot going on around ceramic radomes for Pralay, going by Google results for drdo.gov.in. Also, that all of this is being coordinated by RCI and not ASL or DRDL is bolstering my speculation that Pralay is a repurposed Shaurya - perhaps with a seeker now. Brahmos would then be the 300 km, 300 kg gatecrasher and Pralay would be the 700 km, 1000 kg dam buster.
Well, I think you are on the right track. There are a few more observations from my side.

1. The missile must be a version of an existing missile for going from project sanction to almost test ready (along with canisterization) in a matter of months.
2. That they are getting 2 integration rigs and close to 10 nose cone radomes means that most of the parts are coming at speed, i.e. from a production line, corroborating the above conclusion.
3. It is 9.038 mtrs long. Shaurya is nearly 10 mtrs, but with a booster. It is likely, that they are using Shaurya's canister.
4. While Shaurya's nose cone is very conical, the nose cone of Pralay is more blunted and ogival in nature. This probably means that this missile will be slower than Shaurya, and will spend more time in lower atmosphere.
5. The last part of section 5 of Pralay (about 1m) and section 6 will get a cylindrical jacket which will house the stabilization/control fin (again probably borrowed from Shaurya).
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by ranjan.rao »

A-5 hasnt been tested, I find it quite surprising that the issue of battery has lingered on for so long that it has delayed the testing for such protracted periods. Could it be combination of Monsoon and NSG sessions later in the year?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by SaiK »

did we miss to discuss aswhin intercept video here?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by ramana »

I think the ceramic nose cone, Shaurya diameter, the name indicate a game changing weapon. Radar transparent radome indicates some EM emitting weapon. I think its an EMP to nasl all Nasr weapons.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Singha »

could it be a pershing2 type weapon with radar seeker for ground targets?

this is 70s era tech, todays will be much better and infact shared between the brahmos and this new family:

WIKI
The highly accurate terminal guidance technique used by the Pershing II RV was radar area correlation, using a Goodyear Aerospace active radar homing system.[8] This technique compared live radar video return to prestored reference scenes of the target area and determined RV position errors with respect to its trajectory and target location. These position errors updated the inertial guidance system, which in turn sent commands to the vane control system to guide the RV to the target.

At a predetermined altitude, the radar unit activated to provide altitude update data and begin scanning the target area. The analog radar video return was digitized into two-bit pixels by the correlator unit and was formatted into a 128 by 128 array. The target reference scene data, loaded prior to launch via the ground and missile data links, were also encoded as two-bit pixels and placed in reference memory formatted in a 256 by 256 array. The reference scene resolution necessary to correspond to the decreasing altitude of the RV was effected by placing four reference data arrays in memory, each representing a given altitude band. This correlation process was performed several times during each of four altitude bands and continued to update the inertial guidance system until just before the impact.[9]

If for some reason the correlator system failed to operate or if the correlation data quality was faulty the inertial guidance system continued to operate and guided the RV to the target area with inertial accuracy only.

Goodyear also developed the Reference Scene Generation Facility, a truck mounted shelter containing the equipment required to program the missile targeting controlled by a DEC PDP-11/70.[10] Radar maps of target areas were stored on disk, then specific targeting data was transferred to a quarter-inch cartridge in a hardened carrier. During countdown operations the cartridge was plugged into the launcher control panel to program the missile with targeting data.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by tushar_m »

DRDO successfully tests 'glide bombs' in Pokhran
Jodhpur: India has moved closer to self-dependence in precision-guided 'smart glide bombs' as it conducted covert trials of these bombs successfully at Pokhran firing range in Jaisalmer on Friday.

Christened as 'Garuthmaa' and 'Garudaa', the 'glide bombs' are being indigenously developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

Of these two drop trials, the test of Garudaa, the non-winged glide-bomb, was carried out to evaluate its precision for a range of 30 kilometres on Thursday. In another set of drop trials on Friday, both Garudaa and 'Garuthmaa' were successfully tested from a Su-30 MKI aircraft.
Garuthmaa, the 1,000-kg winged smart glide bomb, was tested for its maximum 100-km range. Top DRDO officials termed the tests as a 'major success'.

It may be mentioned that the trials for a maximum range of 100 kilometres for this '1,000-kg' smart bomb have already been successfully held over the Bay of Bengal, off the Odisha Coast in December 2014 and then in 2015.

One covert trial scheduled for Friday was, however, kept pending due to erratic weather.

Sources in DRDO said that guided by on-board navigation systems, Garuthmaa was tested for its first phase of trials in Thar Desert for assessing its accuracy in hitting a target after gliding for 100 kilometres.

"The bomb was dropped from a Su-30 MKI aircraft for which we got full support from the Pune airbase. User, in this case the IAF, has been involved in development and related trials of this 'smart bomb' from the beginning", said an official, adding that non-winged Garudaa was tested for 30-km range and would be tested for bigger ranges (up to 100 km) in future. DRDO officials shared that the flight path, precision or accuracy, clearance after dropping and other parameters of 'Garuthmaa' were monitored by the radars and other electro-optic systems stationed at the firing range.

'Garudaa', the non-winged version of this guided bomb with a range of 30 kilometres was tested initially three years back. DRDO officials shared that contrary to the conventional 'dumb bombs' which take a free flight after being dropped, guided bombs like 'Guruthmaa' have winglets and on-board navigation and guidance systems enabling these to hit the target with precision after being dropped from varying heights.

Both 'Garuthmaa' and 'Garudaa' are a brainchild of various laboratories of DRDO including Research Centre Imarat in Hyderabad, Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) in Bengaluru, Terminal Ballistics Research Laboratory (TBRL) in Chandigarh, Armaments Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) in Pune.
Source : http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 780015.cms
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Cybaru »

Wow, thats impressive. Straight on to the big boys. Lets not worry about the little 50 pounders! :)
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by shiv »

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Vayutuvan »

Shiv ji, that kind of q model can be drawn in a few minutes in solidworks or auto ad 3D. The real question is whether it is aerodynamically stable, manufacturability, weight, materials used etc. and CAE and shape optimization, (if any part of the body is made composites) number of layers and the directional properties of each layer of the composite etc.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Sid »

Looks like TV guided bombs., KAB 500 type?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by tushar_m »

In comparison spice 250 looks like this

Image
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by shiv »

matrimc wrote:Shiv ji, that kind of q model can be drawn in a few minutes in solidworks or auto ad 3D. The real question is whether it is aerodynamically stable, manufacturability, weight, materials used etc. and CAE and shape optimization, (if any part of the body is made composites) number of layers and the directional properties of each layer of the composite etc.
Too much knowledge is the enemy of the propagandist :D
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by shiv »

Sid wrote:Looks like TV guided bombs., KAB 500 type?
Image
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Vayutuvan »

shiv wrote: Too much knowledge is the enemy of the propagandist :D
:rotfl: Good one. Point taken. Now I will shut up. (Not that I have too much knowledge. Nevertheless...).
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by shiv »

Testing 100 km glide bomb over the sea is one thing. Testing overland to land in Pokharan is a different ball game. That means there is some confidence in the design. Was it tested to full 100 km? Even 50 km is good. I really don't know anything about ballistic trajectories but a bomb dropped from 10,000 meters up should not really travel more than 6-8 km in a plain drop
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by ramana »

Shiv, Ignoring air resistance if the object is heavy like 1000kg bomb, the problem reduces to physics. this gives first order range dropping from 10 km height!



Above news report shows the winged version was tested already 3 times and non-winged version atleast one earlier time. All are dropped from Su-30MKIs flown from Punne.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Indranil »

Yes Ramanaji,

Without air resistance h = 0.5 g t^2. Solving for h =10000, g= 10 => t = 44.72 secs
Horizontal displacement = ut = 300 m/s * 44.72 secs = 13.42 km

But the air resistance is huge and bombs are designed to tip down and increase vertical velocity to terminal velocity and minimize horizontal velocity to improve accuracy. The calculations are much more involved, and airmen use charts to arrice at the release distance, or they used bombsights.

Image
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Indranil »

It is very heartening to see all the developments in this front from DRDO

Non winged

1. Garudaa
Image

2. Is this the same: PG Kit for HSLD?
Image

3. Or this? (2 and 3 are definitely separate). Click for more details
Image

4. Evolution of one of the above? Or separate development altogether? Or license production of spice 2000?
Image


Winged

1. SAAW
Image

Image

2. Garuthmaa (no pictures yet)

Did I miss anything? I am not counting the Sudarshan kits.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by ramana »

Indranil, Thanks. Very good insights. Helps folks understand basic physics still matters.
One can do numerical integration for every second manually or less with computer and plug in the air tables to get close enough.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by SSridhar »

From Business Line,
BrahMos Aerospace will carry out 'drop' trials of its supersonic cruise missile system at the Pokhran range in Rajasthan over the next two-three days, starting today. The final tests for firing a nuclear-capable Indo-Russian BrahMos supersonic cruise missile from a Sukhoi SU-30 jet is likely to take place in December. About 40 Su-30 jets are to be integrated with the BraMos missiles.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by malushahi »

^^^ if not ddmitis, will n^3 (or equivalent) step forth and regale us with the possibilities?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by nirav »

Im guessing massa blessed Talin chips have begun mass production and will find their way onto these bambs.

Once deployed fleet wide these bambs will radically enhance the lethality of the air force. awesome.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by malushahi »

i mean bouquet wise there seems to be a new level of confidence here.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by ramana »

SSridhar wrote:From Business Line,
BrahMos Aerospace will carry out 'drop' trials of its supersonic cruise missile system at the Pokhran range in Rajasthan over the next two-three days, starting today. The final tests for firing a nuclear-capable Indo-Russian BrahMos supersonic cruise missile from a Sukhoi SU-30 jet is likely to take place in December. About 40 Su-30 jets are to be integrated with the BraMos missiles.
So the air launched Brahmos (ALB) are for equipping the 40 Su-30 MKIS and will be nuclear capable. This means mostly electronics redone.
This is similar to the ASMP that French fly.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by SSridhar »

ramana wrote:
SSridhar wrote:From Business Line,
So the air launched Brahmos (ALB) are for equipping the 40 Su-30 MKIS and will be nuclear capable. This means mostly electronics redone.
This is similar to the ASMP that French fly.
It is now clear that nuclear-capable air-launched BrahMos was not incorrect reporting, after all. The French seem to think that ASMP is a stage before the full-scale SLBM launch of nuclear attack on an enemy country. We don't know what the Indian thinking here is. Can the escalation ladder be controlled after even a tactical nuclear weapon attack? India's DND is quite clear on this, it is not. May be this discussion should move to the Deterrence thread.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Indranil »

One open gap that I see in our indigenous missile tech is a man-portable surface to air missile and its A2A variant.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by RoyG »

SSridhar wrote:
ramana wrote:
So the air launched Brahmos (ALB) are for equipping the 40 Su-30 MKIS and will be nuclear capable. This means mostly electronics redone.
This is similar to the ASMP that French fly.
It is now clear that nuclear-capable air-launched BrahMos was not incorrect reporting, after all. The French seem to think that ASMP is a stage before the full-scale SLBM launch of nuclear attack on an enemy country. We don't know what the Indian thinking here is. Can the escalation ladder be controlled after even a tactical nuclear weapon attack? India's DND is quite clear on this, it is not. May be this discussion should move to the Deterrence thread.
Let me paint you a picture.

Let's say that Pakistan is coming apart, India will need a way to publicly show escalation dominance w/o crossing any red lines.

The best way to do it is by flushing 40-50 strike aircraft w/ nuclear cruise missiles.

They have the advantage of being recalled while in flight which can also deescalate tensions if the opposing side adheres to some sort of agreement.

In other words, its a show of confidence by keeping your cards above the table.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Gagan »

That 1000 kg glide bomb is just the prototype needed to deliver lotus petals. Has the right 100 km range too!
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Prem »

Here is scenario,
S500 deployed, MKIs with BRAHMOS blasiting Ram Nam Sat Message are in air, will Paki fire tactical nuke first on IA near RYK & Lahore or commit Hara Kiri first ?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by kit »

i dont know ..Baluchis will be heating up their rear and the Afghans strafing their munnas in the mean time .. POK will be a simmering cauldron of violence .. all that even before IA gets there .. hmm Hari kiri might be good option starting at Rawalpindi :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Kanson »

SSridhar wrote:
ramana wrote:
So the air launched Brahmos (ALB) are for equipping the 40 Su-30 MKIS and will be nuclear capable. This means mostly electronics redone.
This is similar to the ASMP that French fly.
It is now clear that nuclear-capable air-launched BrahMos was not incorrect reporting, after all. The French seem to think that ASMP is a stage before the full-scale SLBM launch of nuclear attack on an enemy country. We don't know what the Indian thinking here is. Can the escalation ladder be controlled after even a tactical nuclear weapon attack? India's DND is quite clear on this, it is not. May be this discussion should move to the Deterrence thread.
Not only French, US & others have considered and made this as first offensive step in escalation matrix, more like showing the intent by action and posturing than merely through words & working through diplomatic channels. Much like moving of troops from barracks to staging point is considered offensive.
SSridhar wrote:Can the escalation ladder be controlled after even a tactical nuclear weapon attack? India's DND is quite clear on this, it is not.
I have said this many times here on how India could react. Indian public stand & posture is more of giving direction to armed forces and as intimidation to adversaries. But how exactly we fight is a different matter. Otherwise you won't be hearing from ex-Head of Strategic forces that their response consists of both conventional as well as non-conventional.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Kanson »

indranilroy wrote:It is very heartening to see all the developments in this front from DRDO


2. Is this the same: PG Kit for HSLD?
Image
Above is not HSLD by any yardstick.

450 kg HSLD bomb
http://ofb.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/rb/8.htm

250 kg HSLD bomb
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/ind ... _speed.jsp
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Kanson »

indranilroy wrote:It is very heartening to see all the developments in this front from DRDO

3. Or this? (2 and 3 are definitely separate). Click for more details
Image
From the description of the above test article and the image....it looks very much like JDAM with mid-body strake unit and a tail unit. Incidentally, the range of JDAM is ~30 km.

........

Here is my note regarding the new development on this front. From the news item (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 780015.cms),
Christened as 'Garuthmaa' and 'Garudaa', the 'glide bombs' are being indigenously developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

Of these two drop trials, the test of Garudaa, the non-winged glide-bomb, was carried out to evaluate its precision for a range of 30 kilometres on Thursday. In another set of drop trials on Friday, both Garudaa and 'Garuthmaa' were successfully tested from a Su-30 MKI aircraft.
Garuthmaa, the 1,000-kg winged smart glide bomb, was tested for its maximum 100-km range.
.........
said an official, adding that non-winged Garudaa was tested for 30-km range and would be tested for bigger ranges (up to 100 km) in future
JDAM range is 30 km. JDAM-ER is an extended range of ~100km(around 80km) with a wing kit. From the article, Garudaa fits the description of JDAM and JDAM-ER.

Seeking similarities, being a 1,000-kg winged smart glide bomb, leaving JDAM, Garuthmaa could be equivalent of either Spice 2000 or JSOW. We know Spice 2000 (1000 kg) range is only 60km and JSOW (500 kg) covers 130km. Spice 1000 (500 kg) range is 100km. But Garuthmaa (1000 kg) range is 100 km.

So could Garuthmaa be 1000 kg JSOW ?
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