Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

srin · Post by **srin** » 25 Aug 2016 06:11

Honestly don't understand brouhaha. Did we really expect France/DCNS/Spain/Navantia/Chile/Brazil/Malaysia to not release this information to anybody ?
Our Project 877 Kilos are also used by China. They will have all the data and manuals that we do !
Only difference this time is that the info has been leaked to public instead of just to the rivals.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 25 Aug 2016 14:16

srin wrote:Did we really expect France/DCNS/Spain/Navantia/Chile/Brazil/Malaysia to not release this information to anybody?
Our Project 877 Kilos are also used by China. They will have all the data and manuals that we do !
Only difference this time is that the info has been leaked to public instead of just to the rivals.

Submarines or aircraft within a class are built to different specifications. For example, F-16 for Pakistan wont be of similar standards to those for Norway or Belgium. For example, the N011 Bars radar for Su-30MKI has modes specific only to India. China got N001 radar upgrade for its Su-30MKK.

From my reading, the documents seem to be contracted design specifications from DCNS. Usually, in all projects across the world, actual specs are worse than design specs, and then work is undertaken to bring them up to contracted design specs.

And since DCNS is owned by the French Govt and we do G2G deals, this IS a serious breach and we need to take it up legally.

And I'm upset with Adm Bhagwat's clarifications as well, that information is available only with nations having hydrographic data of Arabian Sea / Bay of Bengal, that doesn't extent beyond India, US & former Soviet Union. I am not sure whether Chinese Hydrographic vessels are currently active in Arabian Sea & Bay of Bengal.

wig · Post by **wig** » 25 Aug 2016 14:20

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 85135.html

now our naval experts say that the documents leaked do not match the ones supplied to India by French sub maker DCNS

New Delhi launched an internal probe that commenced early today — soon after The Australian, a newspaper based out of Sydney, reported about the leaked data and its details. The paper termed it a “stunning leak”, saying “it details the entire secret combat capability of the six Scorpene-class submarines of India”.
The Ministry of Defence asked the Indian Navy to send a formal letter to French submarine-maker DCNS asking about the leaked documents. The French Government owns about 62 per cent stake in DCNS, which is building six of the diesel-electric Scorpene-class submarines in Mumbai at a cost of Rs 23,562 crore ($3.46 billion). The first one — INS Kalvari — is set to be inducted into the naval fleet at the end of the year and the remaining five vessels at periodic intervals till the year 2020. The Indian Navy is confident that no operational data has been compromised.
Sources said the hull of the submarine cannot change, its insides and noise reducing feature make the difference. Also since the vessels have not been made operational, the actual noise signatures — used by enemy submarine-hunting vessels to track undersea vessels — are not known. A spokesperson for the DCNS released a statement in Paris saying: “This serious matter is thoroughly being investigated by French national authorities for Defence Security. Probe will determine the exact nature of the leaked papers, potential damages to DCNS customers as well as the responsibilities for this leak.”
International news agencies quoted the DCNS spokesperson as saying “corporate espionage” could be behind the leak.
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said: “The first step is to identify what all is related to us. Anyway it’s not that 100 per cent data has been leaked,” adding it appeared to be a case of “hacking”. An Indian Navy official statement said: “It appears that the source of leak is from overseas and not in India.”
The Navy asked its specialists, including those working on cyber security, to report for work at 4 am today as they examined the files shown by the newspaper. They reportedly told the MoD the documents did not match with those supplied by the DCNS to India.
The newspaper, which claimed to have seen the data, said leaked documents were marked “Restricted Scorpene India”. These detail most sensitive combat capabilities of India’s new submarine fleet and would provide an intelligence bonanza if obtained by India’s strategic rivals, such as Pakistan or China, it said.
The data lists out the frequencies at which the submarines gather intelligence and the levels of noise the subs make at various speeds, the news report said. It also contains information on the submarine’s diving depths, range, and endurance, besides its magnetic, electromagnetic, and infrared data.
The news report claimed the data was most probably leaked not from India but from the DCNS in France as it also includes separate confidential DCNS files on plans to sell French frigates to Chile and the French sale of the Mistral-class amphibious assault ship carrier to Russia.
Since these projects of the DCNS have no link to India, there is high probability that the data files were removed from the company in France.
The DCNS is also to make 12 similar vessels for Australia, a $38 billion contract it won beating stiff completion from Japanese and German submarine-makers. The contract was signed in April this year.

sum · Post by **sum** » 25 Aug 2016 15:20

^^ Will never know the truth on this for some time, i guess.

Lots of dis-information will be spread by our side/Counter-folks too. Obviously, no one from GoI/IN will openly say that the documents were the same and so, everything of ours is in the open

Just shows that literally every system we buy from outside will be pretty much compromised and the specs easily gettable with a little effort by dedicated agencies.

kit · Post by **kit** » 25 Aug 2016 16:15

True or not ..either way its the IN that fights the war ..and i know it is quite secretive about its subs ..quite rightly so... it will do whatever it takes to make the subs fighting fit .. i say its a good thing that the leak happened .. better to be surprised in peace times than a war !

vinod · Post by **vinod** » 25 Aug 2016 17:18

Isn't it another French company(de La Rue) responsible for fake currency racket run by Pakistan through their mishandling of bank notes!

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 25 Aug 2016 17:22

Did Germany not done the same kind of this deliberately by leaking the same kind of info on the subs sold to us to South Africa? Now French joined them. Rafale deal now looks very difficult now.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 25 Aug 2016 17:44

If raffle deal is cancelled by us, my money would be on raa enabling the Oz paper a hold of the documents.

OZ sub deal is HUGE. If France loses it, it would be the biggest GPL they would have gotten in recent times.

I'd like to think that the foot enabling the delivery of that GPL is ours.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Aug 2016 18:23

first pixs of Noko SSBN after it succeeded in test fire program

https://twitter.com/JosephHDempsey/stat ... 4304830464

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Aug 2016 18:26

pics of missile being loaded dockside

https://twitter.com/JosephHDempsey/stat ... 3843920896

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Aug 2016 18:33

GIF of one test
https://twitter.com/JosephHDempsey/stat ... 5854958597

wig · Post by **wig** » 25 Aug 2016 18:47

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=0

Scorpene Submarines – Update on Documents Leak

The Government of India is seized of the reported leak of documents related to the ongoing Indian Scorpene submarine programme as reported in sections of the media. The documents that have been posted on the website by an Australian news agency have been examined and do not pose any security compromise as the vital parameters have been blacked out.

The Indian Navy has taken up the matter with Director General of Armament of the French Government expressing concern over this incident and has requested the French Government to investigate this incident with urgency and share their findings with the Indian side. An internal audit of procedures to rule out any security compromise is also being undertaken. The matter is being taken up with concerned foreign governments through diplomatic channels to verify the authenticity of the reports.

The Government of India, as a matter of abundant precaution, is also examining the impact if the information contained in the documents claimed to be available with the Australian sources is compromised. The detailed assessment of potential impact is being undertaken by a high level committee constituted by the Ministry of Defence and the Indian Navy is taking all necessary steps to mitigate any probable security compromise.

Will · Post by **Will** » 25 Aug 2016 19:28

Yagnasri wrote:Did Germany not done the same kind of this deliberately by leaking the same kind of info on the subs sold to us to South Africa? Now French joined them. Rafale deal now looks very difficult now.

I think the German's shared the design of the U-209 designed for India with SA if I remember right.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 25 Aug 2016 20:29

tsarkar wrote:
srin wrote:Did we really expect France/DCNS/Spain/Navantia/Chile/Brazil/Malaysia to not release this information to anybody?
Our Project 877 Kilos are also used by China. They will have all the data and manuals that we do !
Only difference this time is that the info has been leaked to public instead of just to the rivals.
Submarines or aircraft within a class are built to different specifications. For example, F-16 for Pakistan wont be of similar standards to those for Norway or Belgium. For example, the N011 Bars radar for Su-30MKI has modes specific only to India. China got N001 radar upgrade for its Su-30MKK.

From my reading, the documents seem to be contracted design specifications from DCNS. Usually, in all projects across the world, actual specs are worse than design specs, and then work is undertaken to bring them up to contracted design specs.

And since DCNS is owned by the French Govt and we do G2G deals, this IS a serious breach and we need to take it up legally.

And I'm upset with Adm Bhagwat's clarifications as well, that information is available only with nations having hydrographic data of Arabian Sea / Bay of Bengal, that doesn't extent beyond India, US & former Soviet Union. I am not sure whether Chinese Hydrographic vessels are currently active in Arabian Sea & Bay of Bengal.

T Sarkar sir, what's the worst case tactically and operationally and what can we do to mitigate the damage at a tactical and ops level. If you were FOS, FOCWF/EF and a sub Captian what would you do ?

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 25 Aug 2016 21:57

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/08/ ... worry.html

3 Reasons Why #ScorpeneLeak Is A BIG Worry

Over the last 36 hours since the Scorpene Leak scandal broke, plenty has been said about the nature of the leak and its potential impact on Indian submarine operations and deployments.

The Indian Navy has set up a top-level inquiry team to investigate the leak. India has also unequivocally put the onus on France, officially declaring that the leak for was from ‘foreign source’.

In the mean time, government officials have sought to play down the impact of the leak, both officially and otherwise. Among the things being said: the leaked documents are technical manuals, are outdated, don’t constitute sensitive information and don’t pertain to India’s Scorpenes alone.

An MoD official has also been quoted as saying there is no cause for worry. Handling an explosive situation where the Indian government has clearly been blindsided by the leak is one thing. But to brush the leak aside and recognise it for anything other than a devastating breach is to ensure that it happens again. Here now is a list of three reasons why the Scorpene Leak scandal is the most serious non-conflict cause for worry the Indian military has faced in a long time.

The fact that officially controlled/restricted documents of any kind pertaining to strategic platforms have found their way into the public domain itself is the principal cause for alarm.

Documentation and literature running into many thousands of pages are restricted for several reasons — tactical, strategic, economic and commercial.

A leak establishes that the system on the Scorpene programme has holes. Period. That hole is now the centerpiece of two separate investigations in India and France.

That hole has no place in a $3 billion transaction that was underscored by an integrity pact. That hole has no place in an enormously complex programme that looks to shore up critical force levels in one of India’s most crucial combat arms.

Indian Navy submariners (both serving and retired) are unanimously alarmed. A serving Lieutenant Commander I spoke to, currently deployed on a Kilo-class boat, said, “We’ve seen some of the pages that are out there.

But we don’t know what else is out there. Until we know, we have to assume the worst. That’s how the submarine service works.” Nothing truer. The Indian Navy itself, in its official statement today, perplexingly pointed to the redacted documents published by The Australian, as if the Australian newspaper/website is the source of the leak.

The truth is, at this stage, the Indian Navy and government aren’t fully clear about what’s been leaked. It’s a metaphor that reflects submarine operations perfectly: what isn’t known could sink you.

But there’s something much more fundamental about the leak that isn’t being recognised as much as it probably should. A second submariner I spoke to illustrated the point in the gritty way submariners do.

He provided me with the following scenario: “Imagine you’re sent into a large hall full of silent people and ordered to track down a particular person. You don’t know their name, what they look like, what they sound like. Now imagine being sent into that same room with a photograph of the person, a voice sample.

How much sooner would you find the person?” He admits that’s a simplistic example, but he says it conveys a very fundamental message about submarine operations. In a world of darkness and silence, the smallest glimmer of light or sound is actionable data, information that helps decisions, speeds up processes, helps evasion and tracking.

22,000 pages that reportedly cover everything from the Scorpene’s vulnerabilities to its frequencies to its acoustic profiles sounds like a “nightmare” in the submariner’s words. I asked him to list the possible nature of data compromised in the leak. His list: propulsion and cavitation data, acoustics at ultra-slow speed, combat system acoustics, drive turbine sound profile, shifting sonar profile during rapid dive, frequencies at snorkling and shallow depth, acoustic dynamics shift between shallow stationary float and snorkeling depth.

Conversations in media and within the Navy wonder if technical manuals and specifications of submarine platforms really provide any fodder to adversaries. I quote, once again, a submariner: “We don’t know what’s out there. And, yes.”

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Aug 2016 22:18

"Holes" will always be there. Period.

When one is plugged, it may take a while for the next to appear. But appear it will.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 25 Aug 2016 22:41

NRao Ji,

How come these 'holes are always and always ?
a.) German 209 to south africa
b.) french scorpene to australian etc.
only

and never about Agostas?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Aug 2016 22:52

germans are still selling U209 to various Bakras, latest being Egypt with one being in pre-delivery trials.

New Scorpene Details Show Vital Stats Are Out In Open: 10 Facts
All India | Reported by Vishnu Som, Edited by Divyanshu Dutta Roy | Updated: August 25, 2016 21:22 IST

New Scorpene Details Show Vital Stats Are Out In Open: 10 Facts
NEW DELHI: New documents released today evidence that ultra-secret details of India's Scorpene submarines are out in the open.
Here are the top 10 developments in this big story:
The sonar system, including the frequencies used by its key components, the Flank Array, the Sonar Intercept Receiver, the Distributed Array and the Active Array have been compromised. All these systems work together to allow the submarine to detect enemy warships and submarines and attack them using torpedoes.
The latest tranche of data appears to contradict the Ministry of Defence statement earlier today that there was no immediate security risk from the leak of secret documents detailing the capabilities of the Scorpene.
The Australian newspaper, which reported on the leak two days ago, posted new details this evening on its website but with sensitive info redacted.
So though the documents prove that the classified information had been compromised, it is not in the public domain.
The documents posted earlier have been examined and do not pose any security compromise as the vital parameters have been blacked out," the defence ministry said in a statement earlier. However, it is The Australian which has redacted sensitive data. It is possible that these documents are also available to others.

wig · Post by **wig** » 25 Aug 2016 23:04

fresh documents are being published in addition to the one's leaked earilier

New documents released today evidence that ultra-secret details of India's Scorpene submarines are out in the open.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/more-sco ... eststories

Here are the top 10 developments in this big story:
1The sonar system, including the frequencies used by its key components, the Flank Array, the Sonar Intercept Receiver, the Distributed Array and the Active Array have been compromised. All these systems work together to allow the submarine to detect enemy warships and submarines and attack them using torpedoes.
2The latest tranche of data appears to contradict the Ministry of Defence statement earlier today that there was no immediate security risk from the leak of secret documents detailing the capabilities of the Scorpene.
3The Australian newspaper, which reported on the leak two days ago, posted new details this evening on its website but with sensitive info redacted.
4So though the documents prove that the classified information had been compromised, it is not in the public domain.
5The documents posted earlier have been examined and do not pose any security compromise as the vital parameters have been blacked out," the defence ministry said in a statement earlier. However, it is The Australian which has redacted sensitive data. It is possible that these documents are also available to others.
6Six Scorpenes designed by French shipmaker DCNS are being built in Mumbai. The first is expected to join service before the end of this year.
7On Tuesday night, the Australian said it had 22,000 pages of details that exposed the combat capability of the submarines, being built at a cost of $3.5 billion.
8The documents were stolen from DCNS and not leaked, an unnamed French government source said to news agency Reuters, adding that the information published so far shows only operational aspects of the submarines.
9The source said the documents appeared to have been stolen in 2011 by a former French employee that had been fired while providing training in India on the use of the submarines.
10India and France have opened investigations with Delhi asking for a detailed report.

wig · Post by **wig** » 25 Aug 2016 23:07

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 862870.cms
the manner in which the documents leaked

The paper said it has been told that the secret data was removed from DCNS by a former sub-contractor in 2011 and taken to a private company in Southeast Asia before being passed to a branch of that company in a second Southeast Asian nation.
A disk containing the data filed was then posted in regular mail to a company in Australia.
.DCNS is focusing its investigation on former employees and sub-contractors involved in the project. At this stage it is not thought that the leak came from India, it said.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Aug 2016 23:47

Manish_Sharma wrote:NRao Ji,

How come these 'holes are always and always ?
a.) German 209 to south africa
b.) french scorpene to australian etc.
only

and never about Agostas?

Manish ji,

My post was a generic comment.

However, to answer your query, which is specific to Indian situations. India needs to take France to the cleaners on this one. IMHO, India needs to put everyone on notice on such topics.

In fact, even the Aussie news paper needs to hear from India.

I would not hesitate to send the French Amby home for a month or two and close an Aussi consulate in India.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Aug 2016 23:56

the frequencies used in most modern subs for all these passive and active sonars would be about the same, the laws of physics and oceans do not vary for each sub.

the table of noise levels and frequencies actually radiated by the sub sounds more dangerous, but again it seems like some approx design numbers and not a continuous analog live recorded stream of data at various RPM .... mostly they would again be same for modern subs within bands of dB. but these bigger data might be in the 22k pages.

I think the key crown jewels are what the combat systems within do to process all these inputs , how fast, how accurate and how good of a threat library is available .... these might might be in the massive 22k pages

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 26 Aug 2016 00:47

Its amusing how this Australian news paper is still being allow to posses these papers and allowed to publish them.

This is no damn WikiLeaks, its bloody harassment. Technically they are harassing DCNS at the cost of Indian security.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 26 Aug 2016 01:22

Can we ask the french to buy back the submarines that we built and pay us the money we spent on construction ?

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 26 Aug 2016 02:07

Karthik S wrote:Can we ask the french to buy back the submarines that we built and pay us the money we spent on construction ?

Not happening, at best they can pay us a fine or give a discount towards Rafale and promise to be more secure in future.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 26 Aug 2016 02:08

NRao wrote: Manish ji,

My post was a generic comment.

However, to answer your query, which is specific to Indian situations. India needs to take France to the cleaners on this one. IMHO, India needs to put everyone on notice on such topics.

In fact, even the Aussie news paper needs to hear from India.

I would not hesitate to send the French Amby home for a month or two and close an Aussi consulate in India.

You want to close an Aussi Consulate in India because some Aussie paper published a leaked document. Are you so Naive ? Seriously ?

shashankk · Post by **shashankk** » 26 Aug 2016 04:22

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN11014I?il=0

France and India on Thursday played down the security risk posed by leaked data on French-designed submarines that a source told Reuters was probably stolen by a French former employee and that has raised concerns over a $38 billion contract with Australia.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 26 Aug 2016 06:27

This has massa written all over it. Massa has more they decide to release moderate severe information to discredit frenchies with strategic autonomy that desh was seeking away from ruskies and massa. This is no co-incidence of rafale deal signing with this govt. cannot sign the rafale deal.

Frenchies will not take it lightly.They will pay back in same coin like they did to paki admiral who is handicapped for rest of his miserable life

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Aug 2016 06:59

Stolen may be true, but DCNS must pay for the damages done. I am sure we should have some clause in our agreements about that. If not, it better drafted for the next/Rafale deals.

French are poor in their security or what? I am sure the thief has paki connection.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 26 Aug 2016 07:26

NRao wrote:
I would not hesitate to send the French Amby home for a month or two and close an Aussi consulate in India.

We need uranium from Aussies, can't derail that, need to handle the situation carefully.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Aug 2016 08:19

Australian newspaper uploads new set of leaked Scorpene documents
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 863601.cms

However, the new set of documents, with Indian Navy insignia on it and marked "Restricted Scorpene India", gives details about the sonar system of the submarines which is used to gather intelligence underwater.

It talks about a wide range of technical specifications of the sonars and at what degree and frequency it will function.
The documents detail the "Operating Instruction Manual", which talks about how to select a target for weapon firing, weapon configuration selection, among others.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Aug 2016 08:25

The paper said it has been told that the secret data was removed from DCNS by a former sub-contractor in 2011 and taken to a private company in Southeast Asia before being passed on to a branch of that company in a second Southeast Asian nation.

A disk containing the data filed was then posted in regular mail to a company in Australia.

DCNS is focusing its investigation on former employees and sub-contractors involved in the project. At this stage it is not thought that the leak came from India.

The sub-contractor was fired while providing training in India, a source said. India's defence ministry said that it saw no immediate security risk and the French government said the information in the documents only showed how the submarines operate and did not compromise their security.

"The Indians can object to the fact that these documents show the Pakistanis how to maintain their submarines and that's annoying, but it doesn't tell the Pakistanis how to detect an Indian ship, or how we build a submarine in France. Not at all," the source said.

sum · Post by **sum** » 26 Aug 2016 09:44

However, the new set of documents, with Indian Navy insignia on it and marked "Restricted Scorpene India", gives details about the sonar system of the submarines which is used to gather intelligence underwater.

It talks about a wide range of technical specifications of the sonars and at what degree and frequency it will function.
The documents detail the "Operating Instruction Manual", which talks about how to select a target for weapon firing, weapon configuration selection, among others.

The hits just keep on coming!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Aug 2016 11:31

Karthik S wrote:Can we ask the french to buy back the submarines that we built and pay us the money we spent on construction ?

something of the kind would be the best possible solution. France has to own up or be forever blacklisted in future acquisitions, both civil & military.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 26 Aug 2016 11:45

May be we will end up replacing those French Sonar with Indian USHUS or it's variants.

kit · Post by **kit** » 26 Aug 2016 12:19

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 868221.cms

"The documents that have been posted ... have been examined and do not pose any security compromise as the vital parameters have been blacked out," the defence ministry said in a statement.

.. seriously ?

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 26 Aug 2016 12:27

krishna_krishna wrote:This has massa written all over it. Massa has more they decide to release moderate severe information to discredit frenchies with strategic autonomy that desh was seeking away from ruskies and massa. This is no co-incidence of rafale deal signing with this govt. cannot sign the rafale...

Could be OR could be russians now there varshavayankas might look more safer bet, as they saw that after their obsolete torpedo design blew up a sindhurakshak in the dock, and Bharat going for western torpedos from Aridaman onwards...

Maybe they wanted to put a dent in this.

While US was quite pissed with great Stateman President Jacques Chirac who not only refused to put sanctions on Bharat or even condemn the Shakti tests had issued statement on the lines of "...France understands the situation of Bharat..."
While even russians had criticized Bharat.

So this maybe moving to next gear of isolating choices of Bharatvarsh, making US the only choice left.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 26 Aug 2016 12:29

kit wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 868221.cms

"The documents that have been posted ... have been examined and do not pose any security compromise as the vital parameters have been blacked out," the defence ministry said in a statement. .. seriously ?

....beyond retarded !!!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Aug 2016 12:51

uddu wrote:May be we will end up replacing those French Sonar with Indian USHUS or it's variants.

how would that help ? the SONARs are passive anyway. in any case that wont change the acoustic signature of the subs.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 26 Aug 2016 13:04

I think the best solution is to now give up future orders of conventional submarines and go the whole hog for SSNs ie Arihant series-variants.