India-US relations: News and Discussions III

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ramana
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby ramana » 24 Aug 2016 21:00

PH, USA has been supporting China since 1858. Its not a new thing. Eg. Open Door policy was to exclude European colonial powers from exploiting China exclusively.
So I don't trust US pronouncements over China.
Nehruji made India pay the price for his delusions.



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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby g.sarkar » 27 Aug 2016 21:33

http://www.firstpost.com/world/behind-m ... 77276.html
Behind Modi-Obama bonhomie, is a very transactional India-US relationship
When US president Barack Obama exits the White House in January, he will leave behind a foreign policy landscape that has more craters in it than a road in Mumbai after a particularly powerful monsoon season. There will be global challenges that will keep his successor up all night, instead of just dreading the 3 am phone call. But as Obama cedes the Oval Office, there will also be the legacy of a relationship with India that is on a high, building upon the foundation created by his predecessor George W Bush.
When US secretary of state John Kerry participates in the India-US Strategic Dialogue in New Delhi, quite certainly that elevated partnership will be stressed upon. But New Delhi will surely have concerns about the next occupant of the White House.
The Republican nominee Donald Trump has unsettled many in India, as he has done worldwide. We know he really has no policy except one of America First. The Republican National Convention platform in Cleveland was glowing: “India is our geopolitical ally and a strategic trading partner.” But there was some hectoring, as well: “For all of India’s religious communities, we urge protection against violence and discrimination.” On Pakistan, the outlook, notwithstanding some statements that have warmed hawks to the Trump bandwagon, is hardly revolutionary: “Our working relationship is a necessary, though sometimes difficult, benefit to both, and we look toward the strengthening of historic ties that have frayed under the weight of international conflict.”
Basically, the same old, same old.
The Democrats manifested a similar tendency: “We will help Pakistan stabilise its polity and build an effective relationship with the predominantly young population of this strategically located, nuclear-armed country.” And their platform on India also gushed about continuing to “to invest in a long-term strategic partnership with India — the world’s largest democracy, a nation of great diversity, and an important Pacific power.”
Both parties rattled their sabres at China, spoke of defeating the Islamic State and took potshots at the Russians.
While Trump offers the X-factor, Hillary Clinton is a known quantity, and while considered pro-India, has a track record at Foggy Bottom, the State Department’s headquarters, that’s not very encouraging. She played a part in denying India a role as the Obama administration drafted its original Af-Pak policy, and also supervised the $7.5 billion handout to Pakistan that resulted from an Act fostered by her successor, Kerry......
Gautam

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Prem » 29 Aug 2016 02:17

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/ker ... outh-asia/
GENEVA — U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry’s stops in Bangladesh and India come amid increasing concerns about terrorism in both South Asian nations.

After talks on Syria with Russian and U.N. officials, Kerry planned to depart Geneva later Sunday for meetings with Bangladeshi officials, opposition and civic leaders who are coping with a series of extremist attacks. The most recent killed 20 people, including 17 foreigners, at a popular restaurant last month in Dhaka, the capital.The Islamic State group has claimed responsibility for the attack, but authorities maintain that a local banned group, Jumatul Mujahedeen Bangladesh, or JMB, was behind it.Kerry, on his first visit to Bangladesh as secretary of state, planned to discuss counterterrorism cooperation, along with human rights and economic development. On Saturday, police said they had killed three suspected militants, including an alleged mastermind of the cafe attack. Attacks over the past two years have killed atheist bloggers, foreign aid workers and religious minorities.In India, Kerry is set to attend the seventh meeting of the U.S.-India strategic dialogue. Those discussions are taking place as tensions rise in the disputed region of Kashmir, scene of some of the largest protests against Indian rule in recent years. Since early July, at least 67 civilians have been killed and thousands injured, mostly by government forces firing bullets and shotguns at rock-throwing protesters. Two policemen have been killed and hundreds of government forces have been injured in the clashes.Kerry, who aims to try to further boost U.S. economic ties with India on his two-day visit, will be accompanied by U.S. Commerce Secretary Penny Pritzker and senior officials from 12 U.S. government agencies and institutions.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby g.sarkar » 29 Aug 2016 11:47

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 904284.cms
As Barack Obama heads to Laos, signs of a tilt away from China
VIENTIANE: The secretive communist government of Laos, a country with a population of less than 7 million, rarely causes a ripple on the diplomatic circuit. And yet its sleepy capital will spring to life next week when global leaders arrive for an Asian summit.
Barack Obama will be among them, making the last push of his presidency to 'rebalance' Washington's foreign policy towards Asia, a strategy widely seen as a response to China's economic and military muscle-flexing across the region.
The might of Laos' giant neighbour to the north is hard to miss in Vientiane: wealthy Chinese driving SUVs overtake tuk-tuks sputtering along the roads and Chinese-backed hotels sprout from noisy construction sites in one of Asia's most low-rise cities.
But diplomats say Obama could be pushing on an open door in Laos, thanks to a change of government there in April. They say the country's new leaders appear ready to tilt away from Beijing and lean more closely towards another neighbour, Vietnam, whose dispute with China over the South China Sea has pushed it into a deepening alliance with the United States......
Gautam

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Yagnasri » 29 Aug 2016 13:16

http://time.com/4469954/donald-trump-kk ... bert-byrd/ HC is the last person I expected it. But she has no stand on anything unless that benefits her.

Why does JA not like HC? http://www.smobserved.com/story/2016/08 ... /1833.html

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby g.sarkar » 29 Aug 2016 23:37

http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/ker ... 23753.html
Kerry arrives in India for strategic dialogue; terrorism emanating from Pakistan, visa issues on agenda
New Delhi: US Secretary of State John Kerry arrived here on Monday to participate in the 2nd Indo-US Strategic and Commercial Dialogue to be held tomorrow where terrorism emanating from Pakistan and other important issues, including economic matters like visas, will be discussed.
During the Dialogue, to be co-chaired by External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj and Commerce and Industry Minister Nirmala Sitharaman along with Kerry and US Secretary of Commerce Penny Pritzker, the entire gamut of cooperation between the two countries will be taken up.
The co-chairs will be accompanied by a high-level inter- agency delegation on both sides.
During the day-long meeting, Sitharaman will discuss bilateral trade and investment related matters with her US counterpart Pritzker.
According to an official, issues like visa and totalisation agreement are likely to figure in the meeting.......
Gautam


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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby ShauryaT » 30 Aug 2016 03:12

^Can anyone find the text of the LEMOA? Why is a foreign agreement not in the public domain?

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Prem » 30 Aug 2016 05:30

http://www.defense.gov/News/News-Releas ... parrikar-t
U.S.-India Joint Statement on the visit of Minister of Defence Manohar Parrikar to the United States

At the invitation of U.S. Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter, Minister of Defence of India Manohar Parrikar made his second official visit to the United States Aug. 29-31. In addition to his official meetings at the Pentagon and joint visit to the 9/11 Memorial with Secretary Carter, Minister Parrikar also met with the leadership of the Defense Innovation Unit Experimental (DIUx) and visited U.S. Cyber Command (CYBERCOM). He will also visit the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), and Joint Base Langley-Eustis for a tour of the Air Combat Command (ACC) and the 480th Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (ISR) Wing. In addition, he will interact with representatives of U.S. defense industry during the visit.
Minister Parrikar and Secretary Carter discussed India’s “Major Defense Partner” designation, announced during Prime Minister Modi’s visit to Washington in June. They agreed on the importance this framework will provide to facilitate innovative and advanced opportunities in defense technology and trade cooperation. To this end, the United States has agreed to elevate defense trade and technology sharing with India to a level commensurate with its closest allies and partners. Secretary Carter welcomed India’s membership in the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) and reaffirmed U.S. support for India’s membership in the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG).Secretary Carter and Minister Parrikar welcomed continued progress under the Defense Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI). They welcomed the decision at the DTTI meeting in Delhi in July to broaden its agenda by setting up five new joint working groups on: naval systems; air systems, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance; chemical and biological protection; and other systems. They also noted the signing of an information exchange annex under the framework of the Aircraft Carrier Joint Working Group. Secretary Carter and Minister Parrikar also agreed to continue to their close consultation on “Make in India” proposals.
Secretary Carter and Minister Parrikar praised the discussions at the inaugural Maritime Security Dialogue held in May. They welcomed the conclusion of the bilateral ‘White Shipping’’ technical arrangement for data sharing on commercial shipping traffic. They also discussed cooperation on capabilities to augment India’s capacity for maritime domain awareness (MDA). Acknowledging India’s positive contributions to regional security and stability, including in matters beyond the maritime space, Secretary Carter and Minister Parrikar announced their agreement to further consultations in this area, including through the next Maritime Security Dialogue, which will be held later this year. They noted recent high level official exchanges including the visit to New Delhi of Gen. John Nicholson for consultations on Afghanistan, as well as by the secretary of the U.S. Navy and the secretary of the U.S. Air Force earlier this month. . They also welcomed the signing of the bilateral logistics exchange memorandum of agreement (LEMOA), which will facilitate additional opportunities for practical engagement and exchange.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby SaiK » 30 Aug 2016 08:31

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 920617.cms
India, US sign logistic exchange pact boosting defence ties

HIGHLIGHTS
  • India and the US signed an important agreement that will make the two nations logistical allies
  • The pact facilitates the provision of logistical support, supplies, and services between the US and Indian militaries on a reimbursable basis
  • US also reaffirmed for India's membership in the NSG

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Prem » 30 Aug 2016 10:15

India ordering 100 Predator Drones. Will come handy to go after Paki terrorists.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby g.sarkar » 30 Aug 2016 10:33

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/7QlRr8 ... visit.html
India, US to review ties during John Kerry’s visit
Senior officials from India and the US will review the progress made in bilateral ties at the second India-US Strategic and Commercial Dialogue on Tuesday in New Delhi, amid growing differences.
In January 2015, President Barack Obama and Prime Minister Narendra Modi elevated the existing India-US Strategic Dialogue to the strategic and commercial dialogue (S&CD) to reflect the growing significance of the bilateral economic relationship. This is the first time the S&CD will be held in India.
The meeting will be co-chaired by external affairs minister Sushma Swaraj and commerce and industry minister Nirmala Sitharaman from the Indian side. The US delegation will be led by secretary of state John Kerry and secretary of commerce Penny Pritzker.
In her meeting with finance minister Arun Jaitley, Pritzker on Monday hoped the goods and services tax, which was cleared by Parliament earlier this month, will boost economic activity in India. She suggested the trade dialogue by the state chief ministers with the different US authorities can be given a structured shape in order to give impetus to the bilateral trade.
Two co-chairs of CEOs Forum, Cyrus Mistry, chairman of Tata group from the Indian side, and Dave Cote, chairman and CEO of Honeywell International from the US, would also be present at the S&CD plenary.
The first S&CD plenary was held in September 2015 in Washington DC and identified the focus areas of cooperation under the two tracks—strategic and commercial. “The current S&CD would be reviewing the progress made so far in strengthening the agreed upon issues and lay down the road map for the ensuing year, under the two tracks,” a commerce ministry statement said.
After consecutively losing two cases to the US at the World Trade Organization (WTO) on India’s ban on US poultry imports claiming bird flu fears and a subsidy programme for local solar panel makers in June last year and January this year, respectively, India took the US to the WTO over Washington’s allegedly trade-restrictive measures by hiking professional visa fees, which, though not targeted only against India, ends up affecting mostly Indian software professionals. India has been resisting the move for the last few years......
Gautam

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby g.sarkar » 30 Aug 2016 10:37

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/bWiMYY ... ement.html
India, US sign military logistics agreement
Manohar Parrikar said the agreement will allow the Indian and US navies to have an easier time supporting each other in joint operations and exercises and when providing humanitarian assistance.
Washington: The US and India signed an agreement on Monday governing the use of each other’s land, air and naval bases for repair and resupply, a step toward building defence ties as they seek to counter the growing maritime assertiveness of China.
The agreement, a relatively mundane one concerning day-to-day military logistics, is nonetheless a milestone in the US-India defence relationship because of the outsized political importance it had taken on in India, where it had touched on domestic sensitivities, experts said.
The signing of the agreement will “make the logistics of joint operations so much easier and so much more efficient,” US defence secretary Ash Carter said in a news briefing with Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar on Monday.......
Gautam

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby arun » 30 Aug 2016 15:39

Briefing: Previewing Secretary Kerry's Travel to Bangladesh and India
Special Briefing
Senior State Department Official
Via Teleconference
August 29, 2016 ………………………………

QUESTION: Yeah. Many thanks. Hi, [Senior State Department Official]. Thanks for doing this. I just wondered how much discussion there’s going to be on – in current India-Pakistan tensions and Kashmir and how much of a concern those are right at the moment for the United States.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Well, we will certainly have conversations and dialogue in all three of the bilateral meetings – both with the external affairs minister, with the national security adviser, and certainly with the prime minister himself – on regional issues and relations across the board. And so I suspect that there will be conversations with respect to not only India-Pakistan but also developments in Afghanistan and other parts of the neighborhood.

I do believe that the current situation – and I’ve seen all of the reporting around that as well – is very much going to be part of the conversations. We have a longstanding policy of encouraging and advocating for greater dialogue between the two countries on addressing areas of difference, and that continues to be our position. But we also have underscored that combatting terrorism is a high priority for the United States in its bilateral relationships with all of the countries in the region, and that all the countries in the region have an obligation to address these issues, and that we don’t make any distinctions with respect to terrorist groups in any part of that region, that there are no good or bad terrorists, there are only terrorists, and that all countries have an obligation to ensure that there are no safe havens for terrorists.

QUESTION: Just to follow up, I mean, is – how would you characterize the situation in Kashmir at the moment? Would you say that tensions were particularly high, and do they need to be calmed down a bit?

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL[b]: I would say that there is certainly a greater degree of protest and violence that we’ve seen, and that underscores our longstanding position that there needs to be a dialogue process that takes these issues into consideration. And we have always urged for that, but that is a process that needs to be determined by these two countries, and we are supportive of anything that will move that process forward.


From here:

[b]Clicky

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby arun » 30 Aug 2016 15:41

arun wrote:
Briefing: Previewing Secretary Kerry's Travel to Bangladesh and India
Special Briefing
Senior State Department Official
Via Teleconference
August 29, 2016 ………………………………

QUESTION: Yeah. Many thanks. Hi, [Senior State Department Official]. Thanks for doing this. I just wondered how much discussion there’s going to be on – in current India-Pakistan tensions and Kashmir and how much of a concern those are right at the moment for the United States.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Well, we will certainly have conversations and dialogue in all three of the bilateral meetings – both with the external affairs minister, with the national security adviser, and certainly with the prime minister himself – on regional issues and relations across the board. And so I suspect that there will be conversations with respect to not only India-Pakistan but also developments in Afghanistan and other parts of the neighborhood.

I do believe that the current situation – and I’ve seen all of the reporting around that as well – is very much going to be part of the conversations. We have a longstanding policy of encouraging and advocating for greater dialogue between the two countries on addressing areas of difference, and that continues to be our position. But we also have underscored that combatting terrorism is a high priority for the United States in its bilateral relationships with all of the countries in the region, and that all the countries in the region have an obligation to address these issues, and that we don’t make any distinctions with respect to terrorist groups in any part of that region, that there are no good or bad terrorists, there are only terrorists, and that all countries have an obligation to ensure that there are no safe havens for terrorists.

QUESTION: Just to follow up, I mean, is – how would you characterize the situation in Kashmir at the moment? Would you say that tensions were particularly high, and do they need to be calmed down a bit?

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: I would say that there is certainly a greater degree of protest and violence that we’ve seen, and that underscores our longstanding position that there needs to be a dialogue process that takes these issues into consideration. And we have always urged for that, but that is a process that needs to be determined by these two countries, and we are supportive of anything that will move that process forward.


From here:

Clicky

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby NRao » 30 Aug 2016 19:09

Prem wrote:India ordering 100 Predator Drones. Will come handy to go after Paki terrorists.


Was listening to Gen. David. Goldfein, USAF CAS, (who is the only one to have piloted UAVs among the other various air crafts), was describing how difficult it is to deal with "UAV"s. How time consuming the task is. And, how, given its success, how much of a demand it has generated - placing that much more pressure on the USAF.

Based on that report by Gen. Goldfein, IF India does go after terrorists within Pakistan I would think China will have a say in that matter. China will not sit idle and watch. Something India will have to factor in right from day one.

At a much higher level, IMHO, what we are witnessing, is a coalescing of two major groups and a new world order.


(BTW, as a FYI, USAF priorities: China, Russia, Iran, NK and then terrorism - per the Gen. When one factors in "India", one can see a certain picture emerge. And, all these are tied - the UAVs are CHina centric IMHO, nothing to do with Pakistan.)

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby RoyG » 30 Aug 2016 19:23

The drones will be used in Red Zone, NE, and Kashmir, and Myanmar. We will see an accelerated end to insurgency. This is mainly to take control over troubled areas. Not so much Pakistan.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby ShauryaT » 30 Aug 2016 19:40

LEMOA — A most serious strategic mistake, and Consequences -- Bharat Karnad

Read the full thing, as this broad outside perspective of "possible" effects of LEMOA as a stepping stone to a relationship and its impact on Indian interests is largely missing amongst Indians. Do not expect Americans to ever make such arguments. Even if many of the below never come to fruition, the possibility exists. Ofcourse, it will all depend upon how we manage things.

LEMOA — A most serious strategic mistake, and Consequences

India has signed the Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement (LEMOA) with the United States, with Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and Defence Secretary Ashton Carter doing the formalities in Washington. It is, perhaps, the most serious strategic mistake made by the country in its nearly seven decades of independent existence.

The text of the accord has not been made public and is unlikely to be at the request of the Narendra Modi government lest public scrutiny raise a political storm at home, providing ready ammunition to the opposition parties. The two countries, courtesy LEMOA, will use each other’s naval and air bases and facilities, it is said. But because the Indian Navy and and the Indian Air Force rarely stretch their reach beyond the Indian Ocean region in the one case and the western border with Pakistan in the other case, it is mostly the US military that will be reaping the benefits. Indian basing will permit deployed American forces to pull longer, more sustained naval and air operations in the extended region to realize US policy goals.

As repeatedly warned in my writings since Manmohan Singh first signed the deal with George W Bush in July 2005 and in my recent book, ‘Why India is Not a Great Power (Yet)’, there WILL be a heavy foreign and military cost for this loss of strategic autonomy. India’s stepping firmly into a treaty ally role of the US in all but name will mean several things:

1) Russia will necessarily begin distancing itself from India; the military supply relationship will become more attenuated. There will be no incentive for Moscow to treat India and the Indian armed forces as other than a cash-cow. The warmth will be gone but, as likely, so will valued Russian platforms like the Akula-II SSN, which will be withdrawn. Depending upon just how intimate the Indo-US embrace is, it’d be foolish for Moscow to risk Indians handling cutting edge weapons platforms such as the Akula when there’s every likelihood US naval personnel will be able to go over the boat with a fine tooth comb. As it is, Russians have always derated the most advanced Russian equipment before transferring/selling them to India by about 33%. This has been standard Russian practice to minimize the risk of technology theft not so much by Indians as by India’s “friends”.

2) Indian foreign and military policy will have to reorient itself to US policy likes and dislikes. This will strain traditional friendships with Russia and, in the region, Iran, Washington’s current bogey No. 1. So the development of the Chahbahar option as an alternative Indian land route to Central Asia through Afghanistan and to Europe (through Russia’s Northern Distribution Network) will suffer. As will India’s understanding with Tehran about using Chahbahar as naval base and the northeastern Iranian bases for staging IAF attack sorties to augment the Ainee air basing. India’s geostrategic imperatives will thus hit a brick wall. India’s fine balancing act in the Muslim world between the sunnis led by the Saudis and the shia by Tehran will fall down, as the US will insist that New Delhi put its weight on the sunni side of the scale, which will roil domestic politics and internal security.

3) With the special relationship with Russia receding, Moscow will have no compunction not to join up in the China-Pakistan nexus to form a formidable strategic triad as counterweight to the India-US tandem and, in the tactical sense, to cultivate Islamabad and the Pakistan military as its outpost of influence in South Asia and by way if retaining at least negative leverage with India. We can now expect that the Pakistan Air Force will begin to access superior versions of the Su-30, etc., and depending on the run of the play, even SSNs for Pak Navy on lease.

4) The treaty ally status that India had scrupulously avoided all this time — even after signing the Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation with the Soviet Union in Aug 1971, Indira Gandhi resisted President Leonid Brezhnev’s efforts in subsequent years to make this treaty the cornerstone of a Soviet Union-led pan-Asia collective security system — far from preventing, will make it easier for Washington to access India’s sensitive strategic programmes (Agni missile, SSBN, nuclear weapons cell at BARC, etc) and seek to undermine them by offering the usual inducements they offer to most Indians they want to co-opt — green cards, subsidy for children’s education the form of “scholarships”, positions in the US industry, thinktanks, and similar setups, as a means of increasing India’s strategic reliance on the US. Already completely penetrated at the highest levels, MEA and other ministries of the Indian government will soon act as extensions or camp offices of their principal counterpart Departments in Washington.

This is a mere stating of the time tested and proven US modus operandi that has worked elsewhere in the world.

5) But to reiterate the most problematic issue brought up in my earlier posts: LEMOA has within it an embryo the seed of enormous social disruption that the govt has simply not paid heed to — as it has not done to the strategic fallout of getting too close to the US: American military personnel posted in Indian facilities and bases, or on R&R, as is their wont, be socializing all over the place, As has happened elsewhere in Asia — in the Philippines, Okinawa, etc, a whole economy to service the military personnel will spring up, with an unending supply of “booze, drugs, and broads”, the latter procured from the countryside, as happened when the US military was in Vietnam, scarring an entire society for a generation and more. There will be lots children fathered by these often unruly high-spirited American soldiers and a host of attendant problems that the Indian govt and society are unprepared to deal with. The young US officer cadre types will frequent slick watering holes in big cities, take to squiring upper middle class women and leaving them in the same desperate straits as the women servicing the American troops at the lower social end. And there’ll be a surge in the drug traffic that will soon involve ever larger circles of impressionable Indian youth. If you think “udta Punjab” is bad, think “udta Hindustan”. This has been the inevitable pattern wherever there’s US military presence.

How will RSS react? What will RSS make of the social earthquake with massive corrupting of social values and family norms that’s going to come? And to think, one of its own — Pracharak Narendra bhai — triggered this social turmoil with his mindless policy!! Can there be a starker irony?

6) The social interaction between firangi troops and Indian women has all the makings of severe soceital disruption, of course. But it will also bring in its train some very harsh legal problems. For instance, under what jurisdiction will fall the illegal behaviour of US troops? Would American personnel be subjected to Indian laws, if so with what effect on the larger bilateral relations? Because the one thing Washington has always done is sought a different legal dispensation for its citizens. This is a sovereignty issue.

7) The above law & order sovereignty issues will be compounded by the far more significant sovereignty problems seeded by US military personnel guarding sensitive US military stores on portions of Indian air and naval bases sequestered for American use, hence, under nominal US jurisdiction. How’s this acceptable, and how does this mesh with the notion of absolute Indian sovereignty. Did anybody in MEA, in the entire Indian govt, consider such issues before falling behind the PMO’s mindless acceptance of LEMOA, with CISMOA and BECA to soon follow???

8) Whatever the level of intimacy, Washington will NOT tolerate resumption of Indian N-testing, so India will remain stuck between and betwixt, thermonukes-wise. Except now, any slightest move towards testing will be known to the US govt, which will move into snuff it out.

9) And finally the loss of diplomatic and foreign policy leverage is inherent in the situation of loss of autonomy. Balancing power is still the prime motivation of international relations. Power is fungible and always in flux. But balancing as between the various power nodes is what consequential countries do. With LEMOA, India has lost that latitude of foreign policy movement while gaining very little in return. India will still not be able to lay its hands on remotely advanced technology — it can have all the F-16s (and similar obsolete armaments) it wants, even produce them here — to give “Make in India” a regressive twist.

Balancing China, or dealing effectively with this country, India’s main rival in Asia, does not require India to surrender it sovereignty to, or side institutionally with the US. Maximum leverage is derived from maintaining equidistance. This is as an old foreign policy axiom, as old as Suntze and Chanakya, or as relevant as Britain’s ‘continental strategy’ from Marlborough’s time of preventing a dominant power to arise in Europe. All this maneuvring space is now lost to India.

Welcome to the 21st Century AMERINDIA — more American, less Indian. What of an independent-minded, independently acting, India? Forget it.
Are the powers in India listening, or we are just dreaming of being super chanakyan and think that signing such agreements have no costs and implications? Is this the beginning of end to India's quest to be an independent power?
Last edited by ShauryaT on 30 Aug 2016 20:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby kit » 30 Aug 2016 19:51

i think the Russians are already in the loop regarding LEMOA

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby arshyam » 30 Aug 2016 20:11

The NaMo government has lost my vote for 2019, unless the text is heavily skewed in our favour (but somehow, I doubt it). This is a serious mistake for which we will pay a long term price.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Karthik S » 30 Aug 2016 20:36

arshyam ji, whom will you vote for? Not by any means supporting the accord but unfortunately, we don't have any other alternatives.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Sid » 30 Aug 2016 20:43

If we are such a super duper power (mentally) why we have to keep on thinking about everyone's feelings except ours? Why can't we have a policy of "India has permanent interests, not permanent friends"? I mean Porkies literally do this thing day & night, China does this thing every second. But we can't sign a single strategic pact with a country of interest?

We all just need to relax and think about implication for bikharis in our backyard. Such pacts will reduce US dependence from Porkies and will hurt their gravy train. Russia is already cosying up with China, and Porkies, due to economic side effects. Our signing this contract will have nil effect on this new tilt, which is already happening. Neither Russia or India will overreact or go overboard with this pact.

Mr Bharat Karnad also seems to be worried about influence of American troops on our society. Dude forgot that we have Russian presence on our soil for decades who maintained & supported our aircrafts/engine/etc etc. We are not allowing them to have a Okinawa type base in India to have such a profound effect as to destabilize local social fabric.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby IndraD » 30 Aug 2016 20:44

India to buy Chinook & Apache, to completely replace Russian Mi26 by 2020. Deal finalised during recent visit by MoD India.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby g.sarkar » 30 Aug 2016 20:48

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/-kerr ... 160830.htm
John Kerry meets Sushma Swaraj, lauds India-US defence ties
August 30, 2016 19:55 IST
India and the United States on Monday reaffirmed the "urgent necessity" for Pakistan to "dismantle safe havens for terrorists and criminal networks" including Lashkar-e-Toiba, Jaish-e-Mohammad and D-Company.
Speaking at a joint press conference after the Second India-US Strategic and Commercial Dialogue, along with her US counterpart John Kerry, External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj said, "Secretary Kerry and I also agreed on the need for Pakistan to do more to bring the perpetrators of the 2008 Mumbai and 2016 Pathankot terrorist attacks to justice quickly."
Divulging detail of their dialogue, Swaraj said, "Secretary Kerry and I discussed at length the issue of terrorism, which is the key challenge to the international community, and the foremost threat to international peace and security. I am happy to note that there was a 'meeting of minds' on this issue."
Stating that she briefed Secretary Kerry on the continuing problem of cross-border terrorism that India and the larger region faces from Pakistan, Swaraj said, "We both agreed that nations must not maintain double standards, such as the categorisation of good and bad terrorists, nor must they act as sanctuaries and safe havens for terrorist organisations."
"I thanked Secretary Kerry for the US’ constant support for India's membership to the Nuclear Suppliers Group. This interaction has strengthened the US-India relationship, and I hope it contributes to the world at large," she added.....
Gautam

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby kit » 30 Aug 2016 20:49

Without stating the obvious ., LEMOA only brings some legality into operation whatever American forces have been doing w r to Indian bases and vice versa .. the things are already happening nothing new .. and why the LEMOA then because it underscores procedures that will be followed and streamlines the process instead of ad hoc case to case basis .. why is it controversial ? .. because broadly looking at it one assumes India has suddenly become a base / staging post ! .. controversy only because of political nature not certainly strategic / military or whatever other reasons !! . India will benefit from access to American pacific bases when push comes to shove vs china .. and precisely because of this china will oppose it

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Karthik S » 30 Aug 2016 20:50

Sid wrote:If we are such a super duper power (mentally) why we have to keep on thinking about everyone's feelings except ours? Why can't we have a policy of "India has permanent interests, not permanent friends"? I mean Porkies literally do this thing day & night, China does this thing every second. But we can't sign a single strategic pact with a country of interest?

We all just need to relax and think about implication for bikharis in our backyard. Such pacts will reduce US dependence from Porkies and will hurt their gravy train. Russia is already cosying up with China, and Porkies, due to economic side effects. Our signing this contract will have nil effect on this new tilt, which is already happening. Neither Russia or India will overreact or go overboard with this pact.

Mr Bharat Karnad also seems to be worried about influence of American troops on our society. Dude forgot that we have Russian presence on our soil for decades who maintained & supported our aircrafts/engine/etc etc. We are not allowing them to have a Okinawa type base in India to have such a profound effect as to destabilize local social fabric.


What will India gain out of this deal? Apart from decreasing US dependency on Pak? ToT, licenses? We all know how well that will work.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby kit » 30 Aug 2016 20:52

and the LEMOA as signed is a India specific version as far as i understand

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby kit » 30 Aug 2016 20:54

that the US will not accept another nuclear test is totally out of reasoning with a LEMOA or any other alphabet soup agreement . that will be India's sole strategic decision

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby ShauryaT » 30 Aug 2016 21:04

Sid wrote:Mr Bharat Karnad also seems to be worried about influence of American troops on our society. Dude forgot that we have Russian presence on our soil for decades who maintained & supported our aircrafts/engine/etc etc. We are not allowing them to have a Okinawa type base in India to have such a profound effect as to destabilize local social fabric.
Wrong comparison. It is US that has global interests and a global power posture not Russia. Russian personnel interactions limited to product dev/maintenance unlike US who will ask for frequent support & supply missions and hence increased interactions. But in the scheme of things, it is a minor point.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Sid » 30 Aug 2016 21:05

Karthik S wrote:
Sid wrote:If we are such a super duper power (mentally) why we have to keep on thinking about everyone's feelings except ours? Why can't we have a policy of "India has permanent interests, not permanent friends"? I mean Porkies literally do this thing day & night, China does this thing every second. But we can't sign a single strategic pact with a country of interest?

We all just need to relax and think about implication for bikharis in our backyard. Such pacts will reduce US dependence from Porkies and will hurt their gravy train. Russia is already cosying up with China, and Porkies, due to economic side effects. Our signing this contract will have nil effect on this new tilt, which is already happening. Neither Russia or India will overreact or go overboard with this pact.

Mr Bharat Karnad also seems to be worried about influence of American troops on our society. Dude forgot that we have Russian presence on our soil for decades who maintained & supported our aircrafts/engine/etc etc. We are not allowing them to have a Okinawa type base in India to have such a profound effect as to destabilize local social fabric.


What will India gain out of this deal? Apart from decreasing US dependency on Pak? ToT, licenses? We all know how well that will work.


India need not to add any riders in this pact, like "if we agree on this, we need A, B, C".

This pact should be analyzed as a standalone pact, which may have little or no long term effect on how we do business with world and America.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Sid » 30 Aug 2016 21:09

ShauryaT wrote:
Sid wrote:Mr Bharat Karnad also seems to be worried about influence of American troops on our society. Dude forgot that we have Russian presence on our soil for decades who maintained & supported our aircrafts/engine/etc etc. We are not allowing them to have a Okinawa type base in India to have such a profound effect as to destabilize local social fabric.


Wrong comparison. It is US that has global interests and a global power posture not Russia. Russian personnel interactions limited to product dev/maintenance unlike US who will ask for frequent support & supply missions and hence increased interactions. But in the scheme of things, it is a minor point.


Please have some self respect. I have friends who had Russian classmates during school-time in Pune area.

Your thoughts are in line with Mr Karnad who made a racist comment full of inferiority complex. Read below.

6) The social interaction between firangi troops and Indian women has all the makings of severe soceital disruption, of course. But it will also bring in its train some very harsh legal problems. For instance, under what jurisdiction will fall the illegal behaviour of US troops?
Last edited by Sid on 30 Aug 2016 21:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby chetak » 30 Aug 2016 21:10

ShauryaT wrote:
Sid wrote:Mr Bharat Karnad also seems to be worried about influence of American troops on our society. Dude forgot that we have Russian presence on our soil for decades who maintained & supported our aircrafts/engine/etc etc. We are not allowing them to have a Okinawa type base in India to have such a profound effect as to destabilize local social fabric.
Wrong comparison. It is US that has global interests and a global power posture not Russia. Russian personnel interactions limited to product dev/maintenance unlike US who will ask for frequent support & supply missions and hence increased interactions. But in the scheme of things, it is a minor point.


where ever the US troops go, the preachers follow in lockstep. karnad has a valid point.

They are known for humping their way through any country, friend or foe. Look at the records from WW! on wards.

remember the old crack about the US troops ........

"oversexed, overpaid, overfed and over here."

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby ShauryaT » 30 Aug 2016 21:17

kit wrote:that the US will not accept another nuclear test is totally out of reasoning with a LEMOA or any other alphabet soup agreement . that will be India's sole strategic decision
Seriously? India's sole strategic decision that is not made ONLY due to American opposition! Binding agreements make this "sole" decisioning consider increased impact and implications through agreements such as LEMOA. If anyone makes the argument that this is only about some stupid accounting procedures is missing the woods for the trees - big time!

The most logical way to see LEMOA is the continued march of India towards being an "ally" of the US, except in name - translation loss of Indian strategic sovereignty. May not matter to most, but matters to those who understand the game of power. Let us stop spinning and accept this premise that many see this alignment to be in Indian interests with a portion of those welcoming such a step in the belief that India cannot stand on its own.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby chetak » 30 Aug 2016 21:37

ShauryaT wrote:
kit wrote:that the US will not accept another nuclear test is totally out of reasoning with a LEMOA or any other alphabet soup agreement . that will be India's sole strategic decision
Seriously? India's sole strategic decision that is not made ONLY due to American opposition! Binding agreements make this "sole" decisioning consider increased impact and implications through agreements such as LEMOA. If anyone makes the argument that this is only about some stupid accounting procedures is missing the woods for the trees - big time!

The most logical way to see LEMOA is the continued march of India towards being an "ally" of the US, except in name - translation loss of Indian strategic sovereignty. May not matter to most, but matters to those who understand the game of power. Let us stop spinning and accept this premise that many see this alignment to be in Indian interests with a portion of those welcoming such a step in the belief that India cannot stand on its own.


If you lie down with dogs you will get up with fleas. In this case, the fleas will be jehadi ones.

We have painted a target on our own backs and will pay the price.

I only hope that the price is worth it.

The congis did not ally openly with the amrekis because their vote banks would have taken a very significant hit.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Bheeshma » 30 Aug 2016 22:37

So let me get this straight. All India has to do to get out of it is test a few nukes one fine morning? Who said american troops will be allowed outside the base? India will test again, there are no two ways about it. lets see what the details are like? If it was really threatening to Russia we would have seen the Akulas being withdrawn.
That said I don't see any big advantage India has acquired by this deal yet. But then we don't know much about the deal in detail.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby pankajs » 30 Aug 2016 23:17

[quote=="Karnad"]The two countries, courtesy LEMOA, will use each other’s naval and air bases and facilities, it is said. But because the Indian Navy and and the Indian Air Force rarely stretch their reach beyond the Indian Ocean region in the one case and the western border with Pakistan in the other case, it is mostly the US military that will be reaping the benefits. Indian basing will permit deployed American forces to pull longer, more sustained naval and air operations in the extended region to realize US policy goals.[/quote]

So this is about *using* each others bases in emergency or during operations. I don't think it is basing.

1) We already exercise with the American Airforce and Navy using Russian equipment. We don't allow them to inspect our equipment. So how will extending *logistic* support change that? How will such an agreement allow to quote "US naval personnel will be able to go over the boat with a fine tooth comb"?

2) Pressure regarding Russia, Iran, etc was always applied on India by the US. How will a **logistic support** agreement change that?

3) Russia was already doing deal with China and especially after it was squeezed in Europe after Ukraine. China is the largest market for its oil/gas and weapons any ways. At the same time, Russia is wary of China because of the sparsely populated but resource rich Siberia. Chinese rhetoric on past *unfair* boundary agreement is on the rise and will not comfort Moscow. Russia had tried to co-opt Pakistan to control the flow of jihadis to Central Asia and beyond. Nothing will change because of this **logistic support** agreement.

4) US has its largest embassy in India and it would be fair to say its largest CIA station. Indians are the 2nd largest student population in the US universities, most of them children of the Indian elites. They already have numerous think-tanks positions for Indians and a multitude of NGOs in the country. To quote Karnad saab "Already completely penetrated at the highest levels, MEA and other ministries of the Indian government". So what more will a mere **logistical support** agreement add to that?

5, 6, 7) I thought that we are signing a **logistic support** agreement. The Americans are not setting up a base in India so does the comparison with "Philippines, Okinawa, etc," make sense? In 2009 about 42,000 Americans were working in India not including PIO. Think what would the figure be now. Aren't we already getting Pax Americana sitting right in out drawing rooms and on Internet? So will an additional 500 (guess, how big can a co-coordinating setup be) cause a social upheaval in the Indian society?

'8 ) India already has a moratorium on testing as part of 2008 deal. So what is new?

9) A country gets as much latitude as it can take. I read a long time back in a foreign (guess American) article about power status > India cannot push American to do its bidding BUT at the same time India cannot be pushed by American to do its bidding. If we went against American interest it would come after us whether we have this agreement or not. If we **choose ** not to back them on one of their pet peeves, say Iran, then what will happen? Believe me Sky will not fall and No American will not bomb us or Invade us. Sanctions were on the table before and will be on the table now too. And say after 20 years we tell the Americans that some clause is the changed scenario (20 years hence) is too onerous and needs to be re-negotiated or the agreement will fall through. What will American do? Go to the UN like Pakistan goes every year on Kashmir or approach the International court of Justice?

We may or may not get any *real* tech transfer but that is another issue.

The way I see it, this agreement is to shore up the US logistic trail in the IOR with an eye on the Chinese naval expansion, especially wrt Gwadar. This deal is for America but It has its utility for India right now. If as Karnad saab says the deal favours the the Americans they will be wary of not upsetting India. If Indian chooses to suspend the deal what will the Americans do? What did they do when Pakistan blocked NATO supplies post Salala? Go to UN or ICJ? Which power or body can get this agreement implemented against India's will?

A balanced agreement will be tilted towards America at the present given the power/economic differential as it exists now. As India narrows the gap in the coming years, the agreement will come back to even keel in 20-30 years from now.

PS: Multiple edits.
Last edited by pankajs on 30 Aug 2016 23:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Shankk » 30 Aug 2016 23:40

We don't know what is in the agreement so it is difficult to say anything. On the face of it there is not much in this deal for India but I find it hard to believe. These Indians are the same people who will fight very hard to get a "good deal" in any negotiation. There is no reason to believe that the entire establishment, both political and security, has all of a sudden became incompetent or sold out. It was mentioned in another reference that details of this deal will not be disclosed so we are left only to speculate here. Maybe India can access the bases in Japan, South Korea and Philippines to stay longer in south china sea depending on approval by those countries.

On the other side though it was the same BJP government that allowed foreign investment in media and now we are paying the price.

Only time will tell.

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Bheeshma » 30 Aug 2016 23:53

As long as In can get basing rights like Oman in singapore, subic bay or other defacto USN bases then good for IN. Vietnam is already close friend and anything to squeeze the chinese in their own backyard is good. Like others mentioned, we don't know the details.


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