Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Sep 2016 07:04

DCNS proposal for 100% FDI in defence project rejected

New Delhi, September 4:

The government has turned down the country’s first 100 per cent defence foreign direct investment (FDI) proposal by French naval firm DCNS.

The proposal has been rejected by the Finance and Defence ministries on the grounds that the Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) is not a new technology as DCNS is already developing it in India in collaboration with Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), sources told BusinessLine, requesting anonymity.

Under the 100 per cent FDI proposal, DCNS had plans to open up an Indian subsidiary, as it had decided to bring in the new-age AIP technology, which is used in submarines. The technology enables submarines to remain underwater for a longer period without having to surface to recharge batteries.

The 100 per cent FDI proposal was submitted by DCNS to the Foreign Investment Promotion Board of the Finance Ministry in May. Thereafter it was deferred twice by the board before being rejected, the sources added.

The FDI policy in defence, which was relaxed in June, stipulates that foreign investment beyond 49 per cent will be allowed after approval by the government only in cases that result in “access to modern technology ... or for other reasons to be recorded”.

The rejection comes within a week after sensitive data related to the submarines it is building in India were leaked in an Australian newspaper. The controversy has come as a major setback for the firm’s expansion plans in the Indian defence market, sources said.
Govt unhappy

The government is all riled up with DCNS’ “lack of security arrangements” in managing such sensitive technology related to the Scorpene submarines, said an official from the Defence Ministry.

DCNS has been engaged in building six Scorpene-class submarines since 2004 for $3.5 billion, in collaboration with Mazagon Dock Ltd in Mumbai, under a technology transfer. There was widespread speculation over India giving an additional order for three submarines to DCNS with the aim of replacing the Indian Navy’s aging Russian submarines.

However, the Defence Ministry refuted such claims in the light of the recent data leak.

“The Indian Navy has ordered only six Scorpene submarines and orders have not been placed for three more ... The Navy receives many unsolicited proposals from companies (both Indian and foreign) for many projects as per requirements of the service. This cannot be construed as negotiations by Navy or the Defence Ministry,” said a Defence Ministry spokesperson.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Sep 2016 08:52

isnt this a bit unusual, revealing detailed pics of the sub propeller even before it enters service. note this pic is from DCN as the prop is imported. i think it is cast in bronze in one piece and is fixed pitch unlike a ships props.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Sep 2016 08:55

chinese submarine experts would surely be able to deduce quite a few things from such pics.

overall very unimpressive show by DCN. probably cheen has their probes into every orifice in the french MIL complex.

kit · Post by **kit** » 05 Sep 2016 11:29

Singha wrote:chinese submarine experts would surely be able to deduce quite a few things from such pics.

overall very unimpressive show by DCN. probably cheen has their probes into every orifice in the french MIL complex.

Though MOD and IN is playing down the scorpene leak .. there has indeed been a huge dent for the capabilities of the fleet that has not even entered water .. same as that happened with HDW decades back .

There will be consequences for everyone , no saying otherwise.

Question is how far will this be mitigated .

Personally I think the aussies would do good staying away from DCNS but being Indias potential rival in littoral IOR ..

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Sep 2016 12:02

"The sting (for DCNS) is in the tale".Pun intended!
India shelves plan to expand French submarine order after data breach

An employee looks at the propeller of a Scorpene submarine at the industrial site of the naval defence company and shipbuilder DCNS in La Montagne near Nantes, France, April 26, 2016. REUTERS/Stephane Mahe/File Photo

By Sanjeev Miglani | NEW DELHI

India is unlikely to give French naval contractor DCNS a proposed order for three new submarines, in addition to the six it is already building in the country, following the leak of secret data about its capabilities, Indian defence officials said.

Details of the Scorpene submarine were published in the Australian newspaper last month, triggering concerns that it had become vulnerable even before it was ready to enter service.

DCNS had offered to build three more submarines to help India replace its ageing Soviet-era fleet, and had held talks over the past year, two Indian sources said.

That offer will not now be taken up, according to the officials.

"We had an agreement for six, and six it will remain," a defence ministry official briefed on the navy's plans told Reuters, speaking on condition of anonymity.

A spokesman of the Indian Navy confirmed that the orders would not be placed for three more submarines.

"Indian has ordered only six Scorpene submarines and orders have not been placed for three more as reported by some media. Therefore question of cancellation does not arise," the spokesman said

A navy officer said there had been a serious breach of data and the navy's efforts were focused on determining the damage done to the existing submarines.

"No order will be signed, nothing is going to happen now," the officer, who is also been briefed on the submarine data leak, said when asked if the government planned to enlarge the order.

The defence ministry has written to DCNS asking for details about the extent of the leak and how data relating to the Scorpene's intelligence gathering frequencies, diving depth, endurance and weapons specifications had ended up in the public domain, both officials said.

A naval group headed by a three-star admiral is looking at altering some features of the submarine, the first of which began sea trials in May for induction later this year, to minimise any damage.

The remaining five are in various stages of production at state-run Mazgaon Docks shipyard in Mumbai and they were all due to enter service by 2020.

INVESTIGATION

An official at Mazgaon Docks said the firm was focused on completing the original order of six Scorpenes and that he was not aware of any plan to build more.

A DCNS spokesman said the firm was in close touch with "our key customers like India to keep them informed of the development of our investigation, respond to their questions and mitigate their legitimate worries".

"The investigation is still ongoing and one of its objectives is to determine the potential prejudice and minimize its potential consequences," the spokesman said.

DCNS is preparing to build a new fleet of submarines in Australia for A$50 billion ($38.13 billion). Australian defence officials have warned the firm to beef up security in the wake of the leak.

DCNS has said that the leak, which covered details of the Scorpene-class model and not the vessel currently being designed for the Australian fleet, bore the hallmarks of "economic warfare" carried out by frustrated competitors.

Indian officials have pointed to a "non-disclosure of information" clause that was written into the 2005 contract at French insistence, the first defence ministry official briefed on the communication with the DCNS, said.

But the official said the government could only invoke that clause if it was established that the data was leaked and not stolen.

A French government source has said the firm had apparently been robbed, and it was not a leak, adding it was unlikely classified data was stolen.

NOISE SIGNATURE

Indian submarine experts say that, while the breach in information security was serious, it does not make the Scorpenes immediately vulnerable to detection.

The most vital data about a submarine is its unique "signature" of noise, heat and electro-magnetic emissions, and it is the combination of such signatures that determines the ability to detect them.

"If that is gone, then you might as well say goodbye to the submarine. You are exposed," said former vice admiral and submariner A.K.Singh.

Such signatures are assembled in the course of the sea trials of a submarine, and in the case of the Scorpenes that has yet to happen, he said.

India's submarine arm is down to 13 vessels, only half of which are operational at any time, and is falling rapidly behind China, which is expanding its maritime presence in the Indian Ocean.

Even Pakistan, which operates Agosta submarines also built by DCNS and is in talks with China for a new set of submarines, is drawing close to the operational strength of the Indian navy.

The Indian government has approved the acquisition of the next generation of submarines beyond the Scorpene, in an project estimated at $8 billion.

DCNS has expressed an interest in that project, as has Russia and Germany's ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems.

The first defence official said he did not expect any movement on that project until the investigation into the Scorpene leak was completed and new security measures put in place.

(Additional reporting by Tim Hepher in PARIS; Editing by Alex Richardson)
http://in.reuters.com/article/india-fra ... NKCN1182FG

If the GOI/MOD has earmarked $8B for subs,then it should use part of the funds for acquiring a couple more Akulas on lease available faster than German U-boats which will take a min of 5 yrs for the first to arrive.Leasing Ru new built Kilos/Amurs until the new boats arrive is another option to keep fighting capability happy. In any case with Oz to get more advanced French subs than our Scorpenes,there was really no point in extending the run of the programme for another three,which was badly delayed and way beyond budget. Ultimately it is the armament (missiles and torpedoes) that matter.Our future boats must have missiles both for land attack and antiship/sub
http://in.reuters.com/article/india-fra ... NKCN1182FG

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 05 Sep 2016 16:07

Singha wrote:chinese submarine experts would surely be able to deduce quite a few things from such pics.

overall very unimpressive show by DCN. probably cheen has their probes into every orifice in the french MIL complex.

You bet. Chinese are not the ones to depend on some mediocre Aussie newspaper for procuring military secrets. Their industrial espionage scheme in both US and Europe is unprecedented in scale and sophistication.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 05 Sep 2016 22:06

darshhan wrote:
Singha wrote:chinese submarine experts would surely be able to deduce quite a few things from such pics.

overall very unimpressive show by DCN. probably cheen has their probes into every orifice in the french MIL complex.
You bet. Chinese are not the ones to depend on some mediocre Aussie newspaper for procuring military secrets. Their industrial espionage scheme in both US and Europe is unprecedented in scale and sophistication.

It seems laptops from defense contractors and their employees in western countries are stolen by Chinese espionage

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 Sep 2016 22:24

Didn't some frenchman or the other, mostly politician types, hot foot it down to dilli every time some Indian mentioned Rafale??

Surprisingly there is no such french concern now to reassure us publicly about the scorpene leaks

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 05 Sep 2016 23:06

It will happen as well. They will want India to buy those three additional Scorpenes. Will lead to prolonged and no holds barred discussions, particularly with MP at the helm.

rgosain · Post by **rgosain** » 06 Sep 2016 00:17

The questions that no one is bothering to ask are these:

a) did DCNS choose to reveal the operation specs of the Scorpene in 2011 to win the more substantial Barracuda order from Australia,
b) DCNS has dozens of contracts with the French and other governments, why was the Indian one the only one that was compromised
c) when the leak was revealed, DCNS did not hesitate to blame the IN in the local media.. who are their local contacts

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 06 Sep 2016 18:29

rgosain wrote:The questions that no one is bothering to ask are these:

a) did DCNS choose to reveal the operation specs of the Scorpene in 2011 to win the more substantial Barracuda order from Australia,
b) DCNS has dozens of contracts with the French and other governments, why was the Indian one the only one that was compromised
c) when the leak was revealed, DCNS did not hesitate to blame the IN in the local media.. who are their local contacts

All good points!

wig · Post by **wig** » 06 Sep 2016 20:07

the published story on the leak/ robbery of data on the scorpene submarines put out by DCNS is bizarre. One expected better.
the French intel agency DGSE are supposed to be good at industrial espionage.
As per wiki they were active here in the eighties. There are references to a network 'nicobar' ; that influenced the procurement of Mirage 2000 for USD 2 bn + and leaked data pertaining to the armour of T 72 tanks.

The DGSE exploited a network "Nicobar", which facilitated the sale of forty-three Mirage 2000 fighter jets by French defence companies to India for a total of more than US$2 billion, and the acquisition of information about the type of the armour used on Soviet T-72 tanks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directora ... l_Security

this is from an article by one Schweizer, Peter in Journal Foreign Affairs

https://www.jstor.org/stable/20047464

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 07 Sep 2016 05:23

Singha wrote:isnt this a bit unusual, revealing detailed pics of the sub propeller even before it enters service. note this pic is from DCN as the prop is imported. i think it is cast in bronze in one piece and is fixed pitch unlike a ships props.

Singha ji, this U 212 submarine propeller looks completely different than our Scorpenes at 5:55 mins onwards :

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 07 Sep 2016 07:05

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... s-3017703/
US likely to make sale of Guardian drones to India

The US is likely to make a positive decision on India’s request for state-of-the art unarmed Guardian drones for maritime surveillance, especially in the Indian Ocean. The move comes after India was designated a major defence partner of the US in June.Within weeks of that designation, after Prime Minister Narendra Modi met US President Barack Obama, at the White House in early June, the Indian Navy had sent an official letter of request (LoR) in February to Department of Defense towards purchase of 22 high-tech multi-mission Predator Guardian UAVs.
This was the first major request of arms sale purchase by India after Obama designated New Delhi as a major Strategic Defence partner. The US government has not made a formal decision on it yet, but is believed to have started an inter agency process on the Indian request.
According to sources, the administration believes that an approval of such a major military sale would help in “sealing Indian US defense relationship”, bring in “a new level of comfort” between the two militaries and would be considered as a lasting legacy not only for India but also for the Asia-Pacific pivot of the outgoing president.Officials here believe the sale of predator Guardian UAVs would act as a force multiplier for India’s maritime surveillance capabilities in the Indian Ocean region; which of late has become one of the key American objective in the Asia Pacific region.Top governmental sources confirmed that Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter had detailed discussions on predator Guardian UAV to fulfill maritime surveillance requirements.During the meeting, Carter is understood have assured Parrikar he would personally “champion” India’s request “within the system,” sources said.
At General Atomics which has announced to office in India this year, the effort is being spearheaded by Dr Vivek Lall who had been also instrumental in India’s ability to procure advanced Boeing P8I aircraft for maritime domain awareness capability, they said.Sources indicate along with the White House, the Pentagon and some influential members of the US are keen to complete the process as soon as possible before Obama leaves his presidency next January.However, a section within the State Department have to be convinced that this is in the interest of the US national security as well. This maritime capability will be a force multiplier for the Indian Navy who has procured other advance technologies including Boeing P-8 aircraft.
.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Sep 2016 09:40

i was hoping for the bigger and more payload MQ4C BAMS derivative of the global hawk which has automated takeoff and landing capabilities but this guardian thing is better than nothing lol

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 07 Sep 2016 18:32

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Singha wrote:isnt this a bit unusual, revealing detailed pics of the sub propeller even before it enters service. note this pic is from DCN as the prop is imported. i think it is cast in bronze in one piece and is fixed pitch unlike a ships props.
Singha ji, this U 212 submarine propeller looks completely different than our Scorpenes at 5:55 mins onwards :

Are we sure its Scorpene Sub propeller?? I would expect it to have slightly shorter chord blades with 7-8 of them.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 08 Sep 2016 07:16

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... ttarget=no
India, Russia discuss new $4 billion deal for four stealth frigates

EW DELHI: In what could turn into yet another mega defence deal with Russia, bilateral negotiations have gained momentum for India's acquisition of four more stealth frigates for around $4 billion.Even as the high-level India-Russia Military Technical Cooperation Working Group (MTC-WG) kicked off its two-day meeting here on Wednesday, defence ministry sources said Moscow has submitted "a techno-commercial proposal" for the four multi-purpose frigates packed with sensors and weapons including the BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles."Under the proposal, two of the frigates will come from Russia, while the other two will be constructed in India. The MoD has asked for some clarifications before taking a decision on the price and inter-governmental agreement," said a source.The MTC-WG also discussed other pending mega defence projects like the joint development of the fifth-generation fighter aircraft and Kamov Ka-226T light utility helicopters as well as the Rs 39,000 crore purchase of five S-400 Triumf advanced air defence missile systems, as was reported by TOI in its edition on Wednesday.Russia has apparently dovetailed the frigate project - which was first offered by Russian President Vladimir Putin to PM Narendra Modi over a year ago -- with India's aim to lease a second nuclear-powered submarine for around $1.5 billion.The first nuclear-powered Akula-II submarine INS Chakra -- being operated by India since April 2012 after paying $900 million -- had also been linked to the bigger $2.33 billion deal for aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya.The Navy currently has around 130 warships as well as 235 aircraft and helicopters. Moreover, the seven P-17A frigates are among the 39 warships and six Scorpene submarines under construction in Indian shipyards for over Rs 3 lakh crore.But India is now eyeing the Russian frigates since it plans a 212-warship Navy by 2027 to ensure effective safeguarding of its huge geostrategic interests from Persian Gulf to Malacca Strait and beyond.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 08 Sep 2016 08:33

Prem wrote:India, Russia discuss new $4 billion deal for four stealth frigates

$4 billion for 4 stealth frigates? That looks steep. But the only comparison I have is what Wiki chacha tells me that our Shivalik class Frigates cost ~$600 million.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Sep 2016 15:57

Cost overruns for warships built in India is usual.Here's an old CAG report on the same New Talwars may have better SAMs (B-8s?) and hopefully more BMos missiles ,weaponry and helos. The earlier ships also Ru radars,etc. which are likely to be replaced by newer ones.Weaponry ,sensors and new command systems,etc.will make up most of the cost.Since a decade has passed,any warship being ordered today will naturally cost extra whether they are built in India or abroad.

http://www.defencenow.com/news/112/cag- ... yards.html

CAG Report Exposes Pitfalls in Naval Warship Projects and State-Run Shipyards
The Indian Navy’s flagship projects, including the building of Shivalik class frigate, Kolkata class destroyer and Kamorta class anti-submarine warfare corvettes, have all attracted severe criticism with the findings of the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) and its latest report tabled in the Parliament.

CAG, a leading Indian audit watchdog, has exposed the almost farcical nature of these naval projects and the lack of foresight and synergy between the Defence Ministry, Indian Navy and the state-owned shipyards in carrying out crucial indigenous projects in the country.

The latest CAG report points out that India’s plan to build indigenous warships have been constantly derailed by time and cost overruns. CAG has noted that the Shivalik project cost has gone up by 240 per cent and the Kolkata class destroyers have become costlier by 226 percent. In effect, these two projects are expected to cost $ 4.39 billion as opposed to the initial $ 1.29 billion. CAG has added that these colossal hikes have been the result of constant fiddling with the warship design besides the decrepit infrastructure and shoddy work culture of the public-sector shipyards.

In fact, state-owned Mazagaon Dock Limited (MDL) has been accused of including arbitrary costs arising from non-admissible items to the warship construction project, in turn causing unreasonable cost escalation. MDL has delivered only one frigate as opposed to the three it was supposed to deliver as per schedule. Both the major naval projects, including Project-17 to build three 4,900-tonne Shivalik-class stealth frigates and Project-15A to construct three 6,500-tonne Kolkata-class destroyers, are five years behind schedule at MDL.

The CAG report has indicated that Project-28 involving the construction of four 2,400-tonne anti-submarine warfare corvettes at the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers Ltd (GRSE) at Kolkata is facing similar problems. Till date, only one frigate (INS Shivalik) has been commissioned as against the expected nine warships by August 2010.

The CAG report findings have highlighted the fact that cost escalation with the passage of time has not been taken into consideration. As a result, the actual costs of all these projects will be even higher since the projects are still in progress. Besides, the time-overrun will only have a negative impact on the Indian Navy since timely induction of crucial military assets will not occur. The CAG report points out that by year 2012, the Indian Navy’s frigate strength would reduce to 61 percent. Also, it would lose more than half of its destroyers and 80 percent of corvettes, meaning the Indian Navy may retain only 44 per cent and 20 per cent of the envisaged force levels for destroyers and corvettes.

The ill-planned work mode and the overloaded state-run shipyards would never be able to plug the gap in the shortfall of frigates, corvettes and destroyers in the naval fleet. The Indian Navy is also facing problems with its submarine fleet which an earlier CAG report has already highlighted.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 08 Sep 2016 19:17

Prem wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... ttarget=no
India, Russia discuss new $4 billion deal for four stealth frigates

Someone in Russia is again trying to play hard ball just because with Vikramaditya we backed down. We should say .... no thank you, we neither require additional sub nor these 4 junked frigates.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 08 Sep 2016 19:24

Prem wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... ttarget=no
India, Russia discuss new $4 billion deal for four stealth frigates

EW DELHI: In what could turn into yet another mega defence deal with Russia, bilateral negotiations have gained momentum for India's acquisition of four more stealth frigates for around $4 billion.Even as the high-level India-Russia Military Technical Cooperation Working Group (MTC-WG) kicked off its two-day meeting here on Wednesday, defence ministry sources said Moscow has submitted "a techno-commercial proposal" for the four multi-purpose frigates packed with sensors and weapons including the BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles."Under the proposal, two of the frigates will come from Russia, while the other two will be constructed in India. The MoD has asked for some clarifications before taking a decision on the price and inter-governmental agreement," said a source.The MTC-WG also discussed other pending mega defence projects like the joint development of the fifth-generation fighter aircraft and Kamov Ka-226T light utility helicopters as well as the Rs 39,000 crore purchase of five S-400 Triumf advanced air defence missile systems, as was reported by TOI in its edition on Wednesday.Russia has apparently dovetailed the frigate project - which was first offered by Russian President Vladimir Putin to PM Narendra Modi over a year ago -- with India's aim to lease a second nuclear-powered submarine for around $1.5 billion.The first nuclear-powered Akula-II submarine INS Chakra -- being operated by India since April 2012 after paying $900 million -- had also been linked to the bigger $2.33 billion deal for aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya.The Navy currently has around 130 warships as well as 235 aircraft and helicopters. Moreover, the seven P-17A frigates are among the 39 warships and six Scorpene submarines under construction in Indian shipyards for over Rs 3 lakh crore.[b]But India is now eyeing the Russian frigates since it plans a 212-warship Navy by 2027 to ensure effective safeguarding of its huge geostrategic interests from Persian Gulf to Malacca Strait and beyond.[/b]

The article says P-17As are under construction, but haven't seen the final design of the ships. Have the construction really begun?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Sep 2016 20:30

It looks like a package deal from the report.The existing FFGs pack huge punch for their size and the next batch should be even more lethal.10+ Talwar and follow on FFGs should also bring with it some commonality in eqpt/systems/weaponry ,making it easier for the IN to support and increase time at sea.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Sep 2016 23:02

This deal is bad news. Indian yards have no orders and russians are lookin at indian orders. Best order shivalik in large numbers and have her built by 3 or 4 indian yards.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 09 Sep 2016 00:15

But India is now eyeing the Russian frigates since it plans a 212-warship Navy by 2027 ....

Is that a joke? Last target figure was 160 ships in the same time frame.

Indian Yards are already on backlog with 7 Shivaliks and 4 Project-15 Bravos. I am concerned about the slow place of Project-28 as well

kit · Post by **kit** » 09 Sep 2016 00:38

i think the price of 4 billion includes a hidden Akula !!

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 09 Sep 2016 01:08

I don't think Indian yards are that full up. L&T has said they need more orders. Also, spending 1bn on another Akula is silly when you can use the money to use the Arihant model to build SSNs.

Russkies have two ships lying around in Yantar they can't fund and can't get engines for. So, let's squeeze those Indians of ours via a cockamamie deal that is guaranteed to go bad. Who needs the East India Company when you've friends like these.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 09 Sep 2016 01:43

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/thre ... 1/page-239

Bon Plan wrote:
In 2000, a few months after the Kargil War, an Indian submarine slipped out of her moorings in Mumbai harbour and headed into the north Arabian Sea. The INS Shalki, one of the navy’s quietest submarines, was on a specific mission. It was to track Pakistan’s newest acquisition, the French-built PNS Khalid, whose deployment had been indicated by Indian intelligence. The Shalki located the Khalid and tailed it for 45 minutes, her passive sonar stealthily recording acoustic readings and frequencies. The Khalid was oblivious to the shadowing and maintained normal transit speed, which allowed the Indian vessel to record its parameters.

The Shalki had, in a single patrol, gained valuable data on Pakistan’s newest undersea combatant, the critical noise and equipment ‘signatures’ that would help the navy’s warships and aircraft track the submarine.

=> THIS IS HOW YOU GAIN THE SIGNATURE OF A SUB. Not be readieng a commercial ang marketing document.

John · Post by **John** » 09 Sep 2016 07:48

kit wrote:i think the price of 4 billion includes a hidden Akula !!

DDM strikes again they are confusing previous russian 4 frigate offer for P 17a which was design based on Gorshkov class. With current offer for 2nd batch of 3 Admiral Grigorovich class which are left in limbo due to Ukraine crisis.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Sep 2016 08:12

Singha wrote:isnt this a bit unusual, revealing detailed pics of the sub propeller even before it enters service. note this pic is from DCN as the prop is imported. i think it is cast in bronze in one piece and is fixed pitch unlike a ships props.

Aren't ships props also fixed pitch?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Sep 2016 08:25

Manish_Sharma wrote:http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/thre ... 1/page-239

Bon Plan wrote:

=> THIS IS HOW YOU GAIN THE SIGNATURE OF A SUB. Not be readieng a commercial ang marketing document.

This may be true, but the flip side is what someone else from the navy pointed out.

Supposing an adversary navy knew NOTHING about a new Indian sub, they would have to listen to all sonar frequencies to see if they hear anything new or different. But if the manufacturer's classified brochure tells them that the hull vibrates at 2-2.2 Hz under certain conditions, then all that the adversary navy has to do is to specially listen between 2 and 2.2 Hz. The can ignore higher or lower frequencies.

So the data leak actually narrows down the "area of search" for an enemy who is interested

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 09 Sep 2016 08:39

shiv wrote:So the data leak actually narrows down the "area of search" for an enemy who is interested

That GoI declined to pursue the option for additional Scorpenes immediately after the leaks became public, is a clear indication as any about the seriousness with which GoI and IN perceive these leaks.

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Sep 2016 09:56

Kashi wrote: That GoI declined to pursue the option for additional Scorpenes immediately after the leaks became public, is a clear indication as any about the seriousness with which GoI and IN perceive these leaks.

So this proves that the 6 we will now have will be starting with their hands tied even before begining their career with the IN?

Truely worst case scenario but doesnt same apply to even our Kilos of which the Chinese have same model and would have definitely shared with TSP if required?

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 09 Sep 2016 10:01

You would need to have local air superiority for Paki P3 Orions to track down the sub in that area, questionble for PAF to have that capability and It will be some time before we can see PLAN J-11s in the IOR in strength.

Since these subs are meant mainly for local ops in Arabian Sea and BOB, only USN has this capability for forseeable future. Tactics will have to honed to overcome this disadvantage

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 09 Sep 2016 10:34

sum wrote:So this proves that the 6 we will now have will be starting with their hands tied even before begining their career with the IN?

Truely worst case scenario but doesnt same apply to even our Kilos of which the Chinese have same model and would have definitely shared with TSP if required?

My assumption is that GoI and IN believe that the leaks are serious enough to cap our Scorpene fleet (that cost a good deal of money) at 6 for now. This is not to say that this means the end of the Scorpene programme. Perhaps after a detailed evaluation we may decide to order more Scorpenes or perhaps not. As things stand now, our Scorpene fleet appears to be capped at 6.

Of course the same applies to Kilos. We got our first Kilo in 1980s, PRC got theirs in 1994. So any instances of the acoustic signatures of our Kilos being shared with Bakis would have happened only after that. Surely, PRC would be aware that sharing the sub's signature with TSP is a dual-edged sword, if our subs are compromised then so are theirs and with every chance of these signatures ending up with NATO navies courtesy of Baki military personnel of "impeccable integrity".

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Sep 2016 11:13

Well we worry only about what we know. God knows how many nations have "expressed an interest" to DCNS and obtained data only to later say "Sorry we don't want any". Surely Australia had all these details about Indian subs and was under no obligation not to share it with anyone. Oz might share with Malaysia who may share with Shitland

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Sep 2016 11:17

shiv wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/thre ... 1/page-239

This may be true, but the flip side is what someone else from the navy pointed out.

Supposing an adversary navy knew NOTHING about a new Indian sub, they would have to listen to all sonar frequencies to see if they hear anything new or different. But if the manufacturer's classified brochure tells them that the hull vibrates at 2-2.2 Hz under certain conditions, then all that the adversary navy has to do is to specially listen between 2 and 2.2 Hz. The can ignore higher or lower frequencies.

So the data leak actually narrows down the "area of search" for an enemy who is interested

Exactly.. the leak is serious. Everything from the specific frequency bands the ESM, Sonar operate in, the operational parameters (range, diving depths etc), radiated noise guarantees at specific depths/pressures/operational usage (which means our opponents can now design for those parameters).. are all revealed.

Damaging leak.. for sure.. the opponents and the RAN now have an idea of what the Scorpene is capable of..

Having said that, most of our other inducted eqpt has its broad parameters known. So its not a new thing that we are facing. Su-30's rough parametric performance is well known. Yet in IAFs hands its still a very potent weapon since some specifics are hidden.

In short - while the Scorpene sonar's broad operational performance has been leaked.. its specific frequency, design attributes haven't. You'll still need to get all that the old fashioned way (by snooping). You can tell now (thanks to the leak), that the sonar out there is "probably" a Scorpene sonar and even set an algorithm to search for specific bands etc, but to jam it or make it less effective, you'll need far more..

And i have a bridge to sell for all those who think DCNS was not hawking this info everywhere (on the Scorpene) to get new deals. This incident is a virtual repeat it seems of the mid 90?s reports of HDW information on our subs being leaked by the builders to prospective customers to land a few more deals. IN was not pleased.

So in a way, all this information was already known outside. I wouldn't be surprised if all the information above was not already available in some form to the Pakistanis - i.e. similar electronics would have been offered for the PN Agosta upgrade.

srin · Post by **srin** » 09 Sep 2016 17:15

John wrote:
kit wrote:i think the price of 4 billion includes a hidden Akula !!
DDM strikes again they are confusing previous russian 4 frigate offer for P 17a which was design based on Gorshkov class. With current offer for 2nd batch of 3 Admiral Grigorovich class which are left in limbo due to Ukraine crisis.

Not completely sure. Per wikipedia, there are two Admiral Gorshkov class frigates and two (or is it three ?)Admiral Grigorovich frigates that are both incomplete due to Zorya engine issues.

Don't know which one is on offer ... but I hope they are Gorshkovs. 'Coz looking at the brochure specs, the Gorshkovs seem to have the firepower of a Kolkata ! And VLS Redut sounds far better than the clunky two-arm Shtil.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 09 Sep 2016 17:54

From the various articles of Russian media, it seems we are being offered or we have shown interest in Grigorovich.

John · Post by **John** » 10 Sep 2016 18:43

srin wrote:
John wrote: DDM strikes again they are confusing previous russian 4 frigate offer for P 17a which was design based on Gorshkov class. With current offer for 2nd batch of 3 Admiral Grigorovich class which are left in limbo due to Ukraine crisis.
Not completely sure. Per wikipedia, there are two Admiral Gorshkov class frigates and two (or is it three ?)Admiral Grigorovich frigates that are both incomplete due to Zorya engine issues.

Don't know which one is on offer ... but I hope they are Gorshkovs. 'Coz looking at the brochure specs, the Gorshkovs seem to have the firepower of a Kolkata ! And VLS Redut sounds far better than the clunky two-arm Shtil.

There are three Grigorovich that are stuck in limbo due to Ukraine refusing to supply the gas turbines however the plan is to tow them here and fit the propulsion here with one of Zorya's turbines. In other hand russia has no plans to sell Gorshkov class that are being built for russian navy however they originally offered the design as alternative to P-17A program. They did not offer Redut only Vl-shtil and IN has shown no interest in VL Shtil even former is doubtful with IN's adoption of Barak-8. Most likely any Grigorovich that are procured will be fitted with Barak-8.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 10 Sep 2016 20:21

I don't know what Russia is doing and it can be easily possible that some Arms Pimps are trying to modulate public opinion for some needless Russian imports. I think that import of Russian frigates is needless considering the amount of idle capacity in Indian Pvt Shipyards. India can also dovetail it request for Akula and assistance in SSNs with deal for import of 10 nuclear reactors, investment in Russian oil fields etc.

I think that Frigate deal is definite NO NO but some deals like PAKFA, Kamov Ka-226T light utility helicopters as well as purchase of five S-400 Triumf advanced air defence missile system depends on the status of Indian indigenous efforts which will be known by Govt better. While I do think that India can go in for upgrade of IL-76s and also convert some of them to tankers. I also feel we should retain Tu-142.