Indian Military Helicopters

srin · Post by **srin** » 06 Sep 2016 20:31

JTull wrote:Ah, google finds it

15-minutes hovering marks light utility helicopter's first flight

However, the primary responsibility will be to produce the LUH. Raju had said that if everything went well the unit could be operational by 2017-18. It will have the initial capacity to build 3 tonne class and 10 tonne class of helicopters and will be able to build about five 3-tonne class of LUHs per year.

A 10-tonne helo ? That's surprising - I haven't heard anything recently about IMRH or even local manufacture of Mi-17s. Probably a typo - may they meant 6.5 tonne ...

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 06 Sep 2016 22:31

Another From @livefist

Another photo from today's first flight of HAL's Light Utility Helicoper. 3.1ton / Range: 350km / Ceiling: 6.5km

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 06 Sep 2016 23:29

It's in Army Camo already for the first flight!? Nice!

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 06 Sep 2016 23:57

Beautiful. I am hoping the IMRH prototype also in ready by 2017-18. Indian armed forced need a lot of helos which can be made locally, easily 1-1.5K and the civil aviation market can also take off.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 07 Sep 2016 13:21

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2016/09/ ... f.html?m=1

According to HAL’s internal manufacturing targets, the Tumakuru plant will ship about 30 LUHs annually, starting in 2019-20. In Phase II, which will take another 3-4 years, production will be ramped up to 60 helicopters per year."

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 07 Sep 2016 13:29

Even the GSQRs of IMRH have not been provided inspite of request made in 2009. IMRH Is atleast 15 years away. It's a story of Arjun killed in womb by T-90.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 07 Sep 2016 14:45

FIRST VIDEO: India’s Light Utility Helicopter Takes Off - Livefist

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 08 Sep 2016 01:26

Congratulations to everyone on this magnificent achievement.
Read Colonel Shukla's article on the LUH.

He mentions the dual track policy to acquire LUH and the Kamov.
I am sure we will get there before Ivan does in completing the order.

And yes we shall bite the cherry on the cake

Well done Hindustan ... Meri Shaan

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Sep 2016 20:51

Good achievement,but a production rate of only 3 LUH's/yr?! That will never do when we require them in the hundreds.WE need some 400-500 including civil variants as well.The production rate for these small helos should be at l;east 2-4 per month.The 200 KA-226s should all be acquired/built at home within 5-6 years to replace the obsolete and ancient Chetaks/All-3 derivaties flying.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 08 Sep 2016 21:44

3 LUH'z a year is a typo
It is 30 per yr in phase 1, 60/yr in phase II, 3 yrs later

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 08 Sep 2016 23:24

SaiK wrote:Is there line by line comparison between LCH and Harbin z-19 ?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Sep 2016 08:36

indranilroy wrote:
SaiK wrote:Is there line by line comparison between LCH and Harbin z-19 ?

The z-19 is more LUH class - lighter than LCH
But there's this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9Pkv2aeIHc

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 09 Sep 2016 13:05

I wonder when HAL will start manufacturing Shakti = Fake JV Ardiden Engine. Inspite of alleged ToT which took place in 2010, there is not even pretext of manufacturing the engine by HAL. At least Brahmos make nice fake sounds about indigenisation. There is not even a casual mention of perhaps an attempt to start manufacture of this engine. Import hee Import.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 09 Sep 2016 16:27

The same fate awaits GTRE's Kaveri if India accepts the french offer of collabration on Jet engine tech

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 09 Sep 2016 16:32

Gyan wrote:I wonder when HAL will start manufacturing Shakti = Fake JV Ardiden Engine. Inspite of alleged ToT which took place in 2010, there is not even pretext of manufacturing the engine by HAL. At least Brahmos make nice fake sounds about indigenisation. There is not even a casual mention of perhaps an attempt to start manufacture of this engine. Import hee Import.

But the ToT is paid for right?

kit · Post by **kit** » 09 Sep 2016 17:14

Maybe just like those Bofors blueprints it will stay somewhere till some lights a fire under the right persons butt !!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Sep 2016 22:24

Engine is one thing. Gearbox is equally important

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Sep 2016 22:48

Raghuk can correct me here: The gearbox of LUH is designed inhouse (after scouting for "partners") but many parts are being imported.

I think HAL was primarily "learning" in the name of "co-design" of the Shakthi. HAL's learning will reflect in its ongoing endeavour of designing and manufacturing its own 1200 kW turboshaft engine.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Sep 2016 23:02

thanks shiv ji, I didn't search youtube earlier. I also found this useful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtxPceYSuLc
I was more looking at a document.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Sep 2016 23:22

I was right, the gearbox design was down inhouse.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 09 Sep 2016 23:50

On a side issue, it's interesting that Shakti engine is referred to as 750kw/1000hp engine, based perhaps on its continuous rating. Now if same principle is applied by HAL when it calls HTFE as 1200kw engine then My guess is that HTFE may be meant for 10 ton Helos and for even 15 Ton Helos in 3 engine configuration like AW101.

raghuk · Post by **raghuk** » 10 Sep 2016 01:04

Yes, Indranil the gearbox and rotors are designed and manufactured by HAL. And Gyan i don't understand the problem you have with HAL, whatever it is, i request you not to spread lies. The shakti is made in HAL engine division Bangalore. I suggest you please read up before posting stuff or atleast ask before declaring.

Cheers

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Sep 2016 01:07

Gyan wrote:On a side issue, it's interesting that Shakti engine is referred to as 750kw/1000hp engine, based perhaps on its continuous rating. Now if same principle is applied by HAL when it calls HTFE as 1200kw engine then My guess is that HTFE may be meant for 10 ton Helos and for even 15 Ton Helos in 3 engine configuration like AW101.

The numbers in your post are wrong. Shakti is nothing but license produced Ardiden 1H1. The thermal power available from a single 1H1 is as follows:

One Engine Inoperative (OEI): continuous: 1,067 kw / 1,430 shp
All Engines Operative (AEO): Take-off: 1,067 kw/ 1,430 shp
All Engines Operative (AEO): Max. continuous: 910 kw/ 1,220 shp

Also HTFE is a turbofan engine. I think you are referring to HTSE. The HTSE will be used for LUH/LCH/ALH.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 10 Sep 2016 02:06

You are correct that I mistyped HTSE. As for Shakti engine look at http://www.hal-india.com/Product_Detail ... y=&CKey=24. Anyway point I am trying to make is that HTSE may be around 33% more powerful then Shakti engine ie fake JV Ardidien.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Sep 2016 02:45

raghuk wrote:Yes, Indranil the gearbox and rotors are designed and manufactured by HAL.

Thanks for the clarification, and congratulations on the first successful flight of the LUH. I can't imagine that prototype 2 and 3 are too far behind. Hoping that the worst of niggling delays are behind you and you guys can breeze through the test program.

Just a curiosity. I understand that in order to go a ALH-style tail layout, LUH would required a longer boom. But did you guys consider a T-tail. In theory, that would have required a smaller horizontal stabilizer and endplates?

Any updates on the LCH? I have not seen any self-protection suit on any of the prototypes yet.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Sep 2016 04:46

Gyan wrote:You are correct that I mistyped HTSE. As for Shakti engine look at http://www.hal-india.com/Product_Detail ... y=&CKey=24. Anyway point I am trying to make is that HTSE may be around 33% more powerful then Shakti engine ie fake JV Ardidien.

I don't know what HAL is reporting on that page. The information on HAL's website is often dated.

TM 333 -2B2

So TM 333-2B2 power at take off at Sea Level is 1105 shp (824 kW). This is the same as reported by Safran.

Ardiden 1H1

So Ardiden 1H1 power at take off at Sea Level is 1480 shp (1104 kW). This is the higher than the 1430 shp (1,067 kW) reported by Safran.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 10 Sep 2016 09:00

Surfing through Internet, one can reach the conclusion that Max continuous operating power in twin engine configuration and Max emergency 30 sec power in single engine configuration can have upto 40% difference. So In which category HTSE 1200 kW power lies, only time and BRF experts can tell. HTSE Will be more powerful then Shakti but how much? ?

A report on HTSE http://idrw.org/hindustan-turbo-shaft-e ... r-engines/

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 10 Sep 2016 09:10

Raghuk, it's possible that my information is outdated. Pls provide details of manufacturing activity like whether it is only unpacking from container, or SKD, or CKD or actual substantive manufacturing?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Sep 2016 09:25

This is from memory, but according to the contract, the TOT was to be in tranches so that finally 70% of the engine could be built in India.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Sep 2016 10:03

Gyan wrote:Raghuk, it's possible that my information is outdated. Pls provide details of manufacturing activity like whether it is only unpacking from container, or SKD, or CKD or actual substantive manufacturing?

To an extent this is HALs fault in not using effective public relations. HAL needs to do better in showing what they do rather than publishing financial figures. The meme that finances alone make the world go round ignores the fact that technology is not about finances alone. A few images of a manufacturing line would do wonder in a nation where HALs critics outnumber supporters by 10:1

At Aero India I have seen HAL made Al-31 rotor disks with blades but no informative images of how they are done. Contrast that with a GE stall that had a series of images showing a badly damaged "moth eaten" rotor blade being repaired - showing the damaged blade, metal deposited on the blade, the same after initial machining and the finished product looking like new.

Saying that HAL manufactures X, has Y orders from someone and made Z crore profit is unconvincing to Indians who read large numbers and suspect that they hide incompetence, corruption and lies. As a minor digression - a bandh blaming Tamil Nadu or Supreme Court helps to hid the government greed and incompetence that has covered up 80% of Bengaluru's life giving, rain fed water bodies.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 10 Sep 2016 20:12

IIRC correctly the contract was designed at the outset for not manufacturing anything. The initial engines were to be imported, then CKD, then SKD but these numbers were so large that production of ALH was to end by that time. Thereafter if the production run was very long, some manufacturing was envisaged with no ToT & still no manufacturing of HOT sections. This is my understanding and I can be wrong. There is no public info to my knowledge on the issue. For instance, there are lot of brochures released by HAL on AL-31 manufacture but what about Shakti engine? As SHIV said, if HAL wants to say that it is a JV with HAL doing some manufacturing then where are the minimum details? Atleast with Brahmos it was clearly stated in the interview by CEO that India does not manufacture engine and seeker at present and is trying to indigenise it by outsourcing. Further As I have pointed lot times on this forum the indigenisation % is calculated on the basis of Price less imported components, therefore profit, assembly cost, testing, transportation, insurance, certain amount of guaranteed repair & maintenance gets counted into indigenisation. Hence as and when HAL manufactures Shakti engine the it does not mean 70% of components will be indigenised. I have already pointed out that HOT sections will never be indigenised ( to my knowledge) and they comprise of almost 50% of the cost of any engine.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Sep 2016 22:23

Gyan wrote:IIRC correctly the contract was designed at the outset for not manufacturing anything. The initial engines were to be imported, then CKD, then SKD but these numbers were so large that production of ALH was to end by that time. Thereafter if the production run was very long, some manufacturing was envisaged with no ToT & still no manufacturing of HOT sections. This is my understanding and I can be wrong. There is no public info to my knowledge on the issue. For instance, there are lot of brochures released by HAL on AL-31 manufacture but what about Shakti engine? As SHIV said, if HAL wants to say that it is a JV with HAL doing some manufacturing then where are the minimum details? Atleast with Brahmos it was clearly stated in the interview by CEO that India does not manufacture engine and seeker at present and is trying to indigenise it by outsourcing. Further As I have pointed lot times on this forum the indigenisation % is calculated on the basis of Price less imported components, therefore profit, assembly cost, testing, transportation, insurance, certain amount of guaranteed repair & maintenance gets counted into indigenisation. Hence as and when HAL manufactures Shakti engine the it does not mean 70% of components will be indigenised. I have already pointed out that HOT sections will never be indigenised ( to my knowledge) and they comprise of almost 50% of the cost of any engine.

I think that even if one does not want to be scathing, insulting or sceptical, there is a genuine interest among the informed and educated public about what HAL and other PSUs have achieved.

I saw a ref of a Russian engineer who while talking of some engine developments in Russia commented without prompting that Indians have "mastered" the Al 31. Nice to hear from a firangi, but how about similar info regarding Shakti? If we look at the Adour- HAL has been at it for 30 years - with the same Adour powering the Hawk. Surely we have learned something. But in 30 years of reading annual reports of HALs finances and HAL company magazines announcing awards and employee functions - what a about some details of exactly how much is being done by our people in India?

If we are doing good let it be spoken about and admired. If we are simply doing screwdriver - then the PSU bosses need to be punished for hiding that when the nation is howling loudly about "make in India"

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 11 Sep 2016 01:35

I think that is a legit question to ask HAL management. agree shiv

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Sep 2016 01:43

HAL moves much slower than the best companies of the world. It has learned from Adour and Shakti, albeit it take a lot of time. The learnings from Adour must be going into HTFE, and that of Turbomeca engines into the HTSE. Regarding Shakti, HAL took care of about 11% of the workload of the co-development. Shakti's production were to indeginized progressively in 4 tranches. In the last tranch, 70% of the engine was to be produced by HAL.

Raghu, I do have a few questions, please reply with discretion:
1. One of HAL's primary contribution to the Shakti engine was its cooling system. However, IA/IAF have openly said that it one of Shakti's major problems. HAs this been solved?
2. I have read multiple times that the MGB of ALH/LCH can only handle 825 kW from each engine. Now that must be limiting best performance at lower altitudes. I understand that it was a legacy of the 333-2B2 engine, but are you guys planning a further Mk development for a drivetrain which can handle the max takeoff power at SL? Or is there no need for the same as performance at all altitudes have been deemed adequate?
3. The same goes for the LUH. Why is the MGB designed for 700 kW only
4. The empty weight of 8-seaters from around is about 1350 kgs. Even if account for bigger engines and he likes, that would be additional 100-150 kgs. Why is the empty weight of LUH 1900 kgs. That's 30% more!

Thanks.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Sep 2016 07:39

indranilroy wrote:Regarding Shakti, HAL took care of about 11% of the workload of the co-development. Shakti's production were to indeginized progressively in 4 tranches. In the last tranch, 70% of the engine was to be produced by HAL.
.

Interesting info that we now have because you took the trouble to post it. With helicopters being a big success story in India but the engine stories coughing and spluttering, I think a corporate body as huge as HAL needs to come out in the open and show what they are doing wrt to Shakti/other engines.

To come to think of it - and please allow me to reminisce here. I first saw an image of the SEPECAT Jaguar as a boy in the early 1960s in a free glossy American propaganda magazine called SPAN. We selected it after a really prolooooooonged selection process and we have been making them for 30 years. And still - I have seen exactly no images of the Adour production line. It is difficult to imagine that nothing has been learned considering that there must be engineers/technicians who have spent their entire working lives on the Adour in HAL. It can't have been unboxing only.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Sep 2016 04:30

indranilroy wrote: Raghu, I do have a few questions, please reply with discretion:
1. One of HAL's primary contribution to the Shakti engine was its cooling system. However, IA/IAF have openly said that it one of Shakti's major problems. HAs this been solved?
2. I have read multiple times that the MGB of ALH/LCH can only handle 825 kW from each engine. Now that must be limiting best performance at lower altitudes. I understand that it was a legacy of the 333-2B2 engine, but are you guys planning a further Mk development for a drivetrain which can handle the max takeoff power at SL? Or is there no need for the same as performance at all altitudes have been deemed adequate?
3. The same goes for the LUH. Why is the MGB designed for 700 kW only
4. The empty weight of 8-seaters from around is about 1350 kgs. Even if account for bigger engines and he likes, that would be additional 100-150 kgs. Why is the empty weight of LUH 1900 kgs. That's 30% more!

Thanks.

Answering question 4. LUH is more similar to the Bell 429, and has similar weight. Also, I had got it all wrong. The mechanical power derivable from the 1U is 741 kW. So all is good! We seem to have a best in class helicopter on our hands. God speed and hopefully no niggling maintenance problems on the LUH.

However, I have other complaints about the people in from HAL's heli hangars.
1. I had read about wire-cutters on the Dhruv a few years ago, No signs yet.
2. I have heard of EASA certification of Dhruv for about a decade now. No signs yet.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 13 Sep 2016 12:19

indranilroy wrote: ...
1. I had read about wire-cutters on the Dhruv a few years ago, No signs yet.
...

I saw two images with signs, pls chk if you concur

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 13 Sep 2016 14:02

^^ Is it that black upright thing just above the cabin wind shield??

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 13 Sep 2016 14:10

what is wire cutter?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Sep 2016 14:17

I think a wire cutter looks like this -

Detail: