India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

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JayS
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by JayS »

tsarkar wrote:^^ As an example, if Pakistan launches a worthless missile that explodes a conventional 1000 kg warhead over an ODC in Whitefield or Hebbal and just damage the roof without causing any human casualties inside like Dwarka 1965, yet Indian and Foreign MNC's would start shutting down their ODCs in the city citing delivery risk and move jobs to Philippines.

How many out of work IT/ITES employed BR Members would still support an all out war? How many will have surplus money after roti, kapda, makaan to pay for 4G bandwidth to post on BRF?

We as citizens are not psychologically prepared for war. Unless that changes, a few 100's or 1000's killed won't make a difference.

The Israeli's faced national extermination in 1948, 1967 & 1971, and the entire nation was mobilised. In 1971, IG was able to mobilise the entire nation. Unless that happens, nothing changes.
But Sir, by this logic we will never be able to retaliate for any such attack in strong terms let alone a enforced War. I agree a warlike situation will have repercussions. But preparation for such eventualities should be done a priori. Doesn't GOI know that one of these attacks is just waiting to happen?? Where is the contingency planning and preparation?? Will we wait for another Kargil or '71 until we try and prepare our people for War, and then too take our own sweet time to prepare for war?? Op Parakram was an eye opener for us - it took us almost a month to mobilise fully and almost 1000 of our soldiers died without any action whatsoever.

Will we be ever dhoti shivering from fear of a full blown War and not react on such brazen attacks on us?? In my opinion its not the people who are not ready, most of us would do our bit happily when time comes. Its the higher ups who fear losing things. As such wars are hardly ever started by taking aam junata's opinions.

IMO we should have a ready made plan for a quick punitive retaliation which can be executed at short notice. We execute a limited response and retreat back before Pakis can respond with a full blown war. Not something as big as cold start but something like marked terrorist locations, PA installations for bombings, missile attacks etc. Whenever we are attacked we execute some of those missions and bleed the Pakis. So they will think 100 times before planning next attack. While we can keep working on diplomacy, long term actions items, isolating pakis etc etc. Question is - Are our forces capable of preparing and executing such plans?? If yes, does GOI has guts to give go ahead to our soldiers?? If not what needs to be done to acquire such capabilities??
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by asinh »

All I am asking for is publicly visible retaliation. Did the porkies say oooh the Indian army is million strong, has nukes, what will the UN say let's just wring our hands. Lack of reaction must now be said to show some amount of fear.
JayS
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by JayS »

Let alone military action, what is stopping GOI from kicking out all the Pakis from our country, put severe restrictions on the terrorist country, ban all relations, use our economic muscle to begger them?? A series of sharp actions across the board will also send across a message. Sadly we do not even see "Most Favoured Nation" Status revoked.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Karan M »

I hope the IA really extracts its pound of flesh from the TSPA and Modi lets them do what is necessary and supports them to the hilt. He knew this was coming and he should be ready for it.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by negi »

Tsarkar I think you need to speak for yourself , a question like how many IT/ITES types support war can be asked to guys in uniform too specially the top brass who are mostly busy posturing themselves for a ambasador stint or hey you know what a retirement job in some IT/ITES company only.

I remember when there was news of Infy and other IT cos top brass approaching the Govt. during Kargil crisis for allegedly going easy with the whole war thingy well yes there are such folks but then what do we say of glowing examples like ex Adm. Ramdas and several others who after retiring actually toe the Paki line for a living, war or no war ?
Karan M
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Karan M »

^^ its become a self fulfilling prophecy at this point. we point to some IT/ITES types and we will keep pointing to them. and in turn the politicians will do so. and the brass will do so. and the babus will do so. its become a nice shibboleth hung around all our collective conscience. while people keep dying in our "name" yet "freedom of speech at JNU" is important. somebody needs to stand up for national will.

we cannot keep sacrificing soldiers like this. its a blot on our collective national pysche.

IMHO, apart from some amoral manager types in IT/Vity- many of whom exist parasitically, most of the IT/VITY crowd will support a proper thappad and jawaab to the TSP types. that's why the established MSM-babu nexus dislikes them so much and calls them "hindu fundamentalist" and similar epithets implying the rest of india does not think like them, there are many india's etc. IMO - most of india will support proper measures provided there is some tangible gain or is required by the nation - eg kargil. not like the rush to the border stuff during parakram which was too drawn out without a clear understanding of what GOI faced. and by all means put the screw on the terror sympathizers and MSM. most of india and the middle class cares two hoots about them.

i understand the point is about economic pains and gains - not just it/vity but overall. even so, such an issue will now be held against us.
india will not become a developed nation for quite some time to come.

once it does, then the threat will be to return us back and hence we should not give up what we won at such a price. where does it end.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Karan M »

Shiv saar posted this
X- posting so people can do their bit to whatever extent is feasible for them.
Karan M wrote:
shiv wrote: Army Welfare fund
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Thank you.

Did my small bit.

Eternal respect for these brave children of India who are sacrificing their today.
Kakarat
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Kakarat »

I would say just test a few Brahmos on the HQ of all the terrorist organisations
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by rgosain »

I would suggest that both China and Pakistan would like India to retaliate for this latest outrage as it establishes a Pakistan-Kashmir-India dynamic and justifies China's interference in POK. The appropriate response, therefore is not to retailate for this act, but to resume A-5 MiRv testing to signal to the PRc that none of these games involving CPEC, the NSG, and NK testing have gone unnoticed.

Any retaliation in the coming weeks should be strictly about mumbai 26/11 and the non-cooperation in closing down the terrorist infrastructure that supported that outrage, and, which still prove a current threat. The evidence and revelations from the past decade have indicated the involvement of a whole variety of agencies and organisations.
Last edited by rgosain on 18 Sep 2016 22:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by krishna_krishna »

Deep pain, prayers for the departed army soldiers. Here are the pigs who got their 72 (graphic pics):

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CspajyfUkAIk8TN.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Csph6e_UkAIECYF.jpg
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by prahaar »

rgosain wrote:I would suggest that both China and Pakistan would like India to retaliate for this latest outrage as it reestablishes the Pakistan-Kashmir-India equilibrium and justifies China's interference in POK. The appropriate response, therefore is not to retailate for this act, but to resume A-5 MiRv testing to signal to the PRc that none of these games involving CPEC, the NSG, and NK testing have gone unnoticed.

Any retaliation in the coming weeks should be strictly about mumbai 26/11 and the non-cooperation in closing down the terrorist infrastructure that supported that outrage, and, which still prove a current threat. The evidence and revelations from the past decade have indicated the involvement of a whole variety of agencies and organisations.
Is it militarily feasible to break a few bridges between POJK and Aksai Chin? + drop napalm on PA base.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by rgosain »

Prahaar..
The legal grounds for retaliation should be Mumbai 26/11, as none of pakistan's patrons and fellow travelers will be able to shout Kashmir. Some like Milliband might try, but Mumbai provides a much clearer and open ended pretext.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Aditya_V »

We should assess and build up our defences, get our artillery, airforce in place and take out some Paki base with PInaka/Smerch like Abootabad or any place, no need to restrict it to LOC, only requirement such a strike should cause maximum casualties and then claim no idea and ask Pakis to share evidence that it was indeed an Indian strike.

Meanwhile, we should not threaten them with speeches, it come out of the bluw perhaps 2 weeks to 3 months from now. I hope the Govt and top brass don't act liek wimps like in the past. Pakis have to pay to Miltary deaths, that is the only language they will understand.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by tsarkar »

JayS wrote:But Sir, by this logic we will never be able to retaliate for any such attack in strong terms let alone a enforced War. I agree a warlike situation will have repercussions. But preparation for such eventualities should be done a priori. Doesn't GOI know that one of these attacks is just waiting to happen?? Where is the contingency planning and preparation?? Will we wait for another Kargil or '71 until we try and prepare our people for War, and then too take our own sweet time to prepare for war?? Op Parakram was an eye opener for us - it took us almost a month to mobilise fully and almost 1000 of our soldiers died without any action whatsoever.

Will we be ever dhoti shivering from fear of a full blown War and not react on such brazen attacks on us?? In my opinion its not the people who are not ready, most of us would do our bit happily when time comes. Its the higher ups who fear losing things. As such wars are hardly ever started by taking aam junata's opinions.
Firstly, I was giving reasons (excuses) cited by leaders for inaction. There were lot of expectations from ABV, LKA & GF all of whom were damp squibs. NM & MP are no different.

Secondly, all militaries have war plans ready for contingencies. Like for example, China attacking AP or Ladakh or Pakistan attacking Kargil. There are war games planned, at Brigade, Division, Corps and Command levels including IAF and IN. During Kargil, IN played its part perfectly, unlike 1965 when it was wondering what to do and GoI gave a diktat not to operate North of Porbandar.

With regards to readiness, no military is 100% ready. But it's always ready for action, right from unit to formation levels, unless in refit. Otherwise it's incompetency of leaders.

Lastly, you're absolutely right on higher up's fear of losing - and Negi's point of self seeking Generals / Admirals is valid too. We've had careerists like General Pran Nath Thapar and Admiral Charles Nanda who institutionalised Arms Deal Corruption, though fortunately he was in Delhi in 1971 and able commanders in both Eastern and Western Fleets successfully led IN to victory.

Coming back to the issue of retaliation, ability exists, willpower doesn't. And neither has Modi or Parrikar done anything beyond posturing.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Paarth »

why not identify children of paki ISI top porks and fry the piglets in porkistan or west.
why not raid border posts or even camps of porki military/rangers.
why not heat up border and LOC and let all the retired ammo thrown at them?
why not use armed drones and test porki arspace near loc?
why not invest more assets in karachi, balochistan and KPK?
why not put all separatists in kashmir in some faraway rotten jails in arunachal or tamilnadoo?
why not put special economic costs on porkistan, subsidized textile and leather industry to target where porkis do whatever meager businesses they do? a
why not use water as strategic asset?
why not build dams in ladakh, jammu or even himachal areas to reduce or thrust water flows to porks?
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by rohitvats »

Some word from the ground - terrorists attacked when troops were drawing diesel from a fuel dump. This dump was attacked with something like 17 grenades in 3-minutes. This caused a major fire and tents and barracks nearby caught fire. 14 casualties on this account. Plan (gleaned from map carried by militants) was to next attack a medical unit nearby and then storm officers' mess. But terrorists got disoriented as fuel dump exploded and charged at barracks. Which were luckily empty. Challenged by a young-19 year old Dogra soldier. Killed one. Got hit on head and is in hospital. Three others barricaded themselves inside empty barrack. Finished off by a team from 4 & 9 Para SF.

IMO, Pakees got lucky. Attack started at 0530 hrs and terrorists neutralized before 9 am.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by tsarkar »

^^ how did they get such detailed layout?
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by rohitvats »

tsarkar wrote:^^ how did they get such detailed layout?
You forget Uri sits in a bowl with mountain ridges on the west. And the infamous Haji Pir pass and its ridge-line. Plus, one supposes PA has access to high quality satellite imagery.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by darshhan »

rohitvats wrote:
tsarkar wrote:^^ how did they get such detailed layout?
You forget Uri sits in a bowl with mountain ridges on the west. And the infamous Haji Pir pass and its ridge-line. Plus, one supposes PA has access to high quality satellite imagery.
+1 Rohit. Why only satellites. A half decent UAV should be enough to produce a detailed layout.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Karan M »

^^ they've probably scoped out a 100 bases and if the bases are garrisoned to impenetrable standards, the war will move to the civilian hinterlands.

TSP keeps imposing terror on us, while we wring our hands and keep getting scared of escalating.

imho, the retaliation by IA/GOI not only has to be massive but overt. the public has to start thinking beyond gandhi, JNU "scholars" and MSM "fulbright scholars" and "intellectuals". it ahs to become institutionalized so much so that pakistan stops thinking of escalation. because india will make them bleed and keep them bleeding 1000x.

otherwise, we are fast becoming a nation of the weak and amoral whose fatcats engage in politics and bullying others, while less entitled children of the same country die on the border protecting their nation from even bigger bullies.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Gagan »

This URI camp has hills on all sides! The river Jhelum is right next to it, and there is another hill right beyond the Jhelum.
It is very easy to monitor everything from any where on the hills.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by darshhan »

Now would be the right time to rename this thread as "India's options to finish off Pakistan"
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Aditya G »

Jugal Purohit:

http://www.dailyo.in/politics/uri-attac ... 12978.html
Sitting inside his post-retirement office along the busy Mumbai-Pune Express Highway, a former marine commando (MARCOS, as the Indian Navy calls its special force personnel) showed me a video.

It consisted of some MARCOS simulations which were, he said, “for your eyes only”. Watching these men display mind-boggling capabilities, I was filled with awe. But it was short-lived.

“We are tools and unless there is a will to use these tools in the nation’s interest, these efforts are only restricted to drills,” he said, with a hint of disappointment.

He made a much larger point.

With today’s attack in Uri where we lost 17 army personnel, just about everyone from journalists to retired members of the armed forces to bureaucrats to diplomats and, of course, politicians are talking about "options" to respond with.

While briefing the press corps today (September 18), the Army’s Director General of Military Operations (DGMO) Lt-Gen Ranbir Singh revealed the four slain terrorists carried material which had Pakistani markings.

He also identified the group the terrorists were from as Jaesh-e-Mohammed (JeM), created by Maulana Masood Azhar who was released by India in a swap for passengers on board the hijacked IC814 Indian Airlines aircraft in December 1999.

Coming back to the aspect of "options", I have little doubt about the capability and expertise of our armed forces to exploit the same. There, of course, will be a cost to our exercising these options. But then, as some argue, aren’t we already bearing the costs?


About one thing there is no ambiguity, however. Away from the public positions and sound bites, runs the Line of Control (LoC), a bitter, cold place with a life of its own.

What happens there is seldom known to anyone except those destined to keep order, i.e the men in olive greens and khakhi. An incident which played out nearly 50 years ago is typical of the phenomenon.

As senior journalist Nitin Gokhale brings out in his book Turning the Tide, the year was 1965. The Indian Army, still smarting under the 1962 defeat, had lost territory in Kutch, Gujarat, to the Pakistanis. There was no declared war, just yet.

Obviously, the morale of the troops was quite low. While the government was deliberating upon its course of action, the then Western Army commander, the legendary Lt-Gen Harbaksh Singh wrote to his brigade commander based in Kargil. One line of his demi official (DO) letter read: “Has the martial blood of the Indian Army soldiers dried up?”

His deputies got the message.

Within a week, thanks to exceptional bravery and some smart planning, Point 13620 in Kargil, which was being used by the Pakistanis to constantly wreak havoc on India, was taken.

That Point 13620 was handed back to Pakistan within no time, notwithstanding the casualties India suffered in taking it, tells us something about why we are where we are.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Kakarat »

The problem with us is we worried about if we attack Pakistan what will china do? what will US do? what will UN do? will pak use nuke? etc. But I think attacking is the best message we can give to them to tell them we have come beyond this and also feel that pak will not start a war if we start with surgical/missile strikes on select targets. At most it will mobilise and will start a few border skirmish or at most localised war (which we can also use to our advantage) since a for large scale war it would have to redeploy its troops from its NWFP and Baluchistan which can be counter productive for them. They will not use nukes also because of fear of our nukes and international pressure.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Gyan »

NDA has never ever retaliated. Last person who did something was Rajiv Gandhi in Siachin. While MMS Atleast used to keep quiet and we did not have to suffer false bravado.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Aditya G »

Gyan wrote:NDA has never ever retaliated. Last person who did something was Rajiv Gandhi in Siachin. While MMS Atleast used to keep quiet and we did not have to suffer false bravado.
The current admin is responsible for retaliating on ceasefire violations - to the extent the situation is largely in control there.

They also get credits for Myanmar operation.

On intelligence, we were pre-positioned for the Pathankot attack as well. Luck did not favour us else.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Gagan »

Any government in India will take into account the external environment and the environment within the nation before taking any action, and this is to be expected.
India has a political capital and reach that extends beyond our limited world views tell us.
India needs to take the first hard step, the world will step in line, opposition will be managed and will change into silent admiration

We need to give peace a chance...
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by schinnas »

The problem is that over a period of several decades, the entire babudom and sections of army brass have become used to not doing what is expected of us to do as a self respecting, sovereign nation.

There is no point in having red lines if we allow enemy to violate it with impunity. Then nobody will even respect our second strike doctrine with devastating consequences for all of us.

It is time we act and not indulge in empty bravado or incompetent enuch talks lie we will raise this issue in UNGA.

Our netas and baboons should look at a tiny county like Israel and learn from them.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Philip »

I've been saying this for almost a decade now.
Retaliation threefold. Diplomatic,economic and military.Preferably dispensed simultaneously or in sequence.

Diplomatic:Downgrading of relations and expulsion of its envoy and key diplomats..A total ban on all exchanges of intervisitation,sporting ties,ban on overflights,etc.Summon the PRC ambassador and read the riot act to him.Admonish the US envoy too for its support for the TSP and selective anti-terror policy in the subcontinent.

Call for Pak's expulsion/suspension from SAARC.Start a new entity,SAFE/SAEF:The S.Asian Economic Forum/S.Asian Forum Economique.Like the European Common Market which morphed into the EU.

Economic:Full sanctions on Pak and all goods of origin from Pak.Sanction Chinese cos. operating in Pak.A ban on all such products in India.Warn US cos/EU cos too.Especially arms manufacturers.Restrict Indian investment into China.Ban on all Chinese cos working in Pak in infrastructure projects,etc.

Military:Strikes against terrorist bases,towns and cities.Use incendiaries,napalm,etc.Strikes against key military installations close to the border/LOC.

Political:Start building more military cantonements/settlements in J&K to include protected resettlement of Kashmiri pandits.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Philip »

Contd:Remove all priviliges for anti national J&K politicos,security,funding,etc.Lock them up and throw away the keys.Desi bleeding-heart pro-Paki entities ang NGOs to face severe punishment for aiding and abetting terror against India.Sack/transfer babus who have advocated "p*ss in our time" policirs with Pak and China.

Quickly finalise mil deals with Russia to include immediate lease of desired Russian weapon systems,subs,S-400s,etc.

Recognise Baluchistan as an independent state immediately.Form a Baluchi govt. in exile in India.Send a high level official eco/political delegation to Taiwan and ramp up ties in all aspects including military.A warning to the PRC.

Revenge is a dish best eaten cold.Full mil options once we've prepared well.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Amoghvarsha »

On every channel experts like Gen Bakshi,and Jaswal,Maj Maroof etc are saying we have certain capabilities which we can use to hit Pakistan hard but "I" will not like to talk about it in public.What is this Capability?
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Paarth »

Amoghvarsha wrote:On every channel experts like Gen Bakshi,and Jaswal,Maj Maroof etc are saying we have certain capabilities which we can use to hit Pakistan hard but "I" will not like to talk about it in public.What is this Capability?
If there were any capabilities we would have seen them after pathankot attack. Indian army has time and again shown they cant respond to porkis in same language, our asymmetric warfare capabilities are all time low. RAW is total joke.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Or
Give peace a chance, obliterate pakistan :

Image

WHITE WARHEADS 450 KILOTON
YELLOW 250 KILOTON
PURPLE 50 KILOTON
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by SaiK »

our own kamikaze drones should have been made in millions
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by kittigadu »

This was an attack on the Indian army. The government should step back and let the army retaliate any way it wants to cause 5x the casualties. Rest is all talk.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Guddu »

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... g-3038242/

"National Security Advisor Ajit Doval, sources said, chaired a Sunday morning meeting involving top intelligence and Army officials, where he called for options to be prepared for presentation to the Prime Minister."

So this is a different meeting than the one chaired by HM. Hopefully the military chiefs will support the plans.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Pathik »

Never quite understood what the republic and independence day parade displays of weapons have been for ??? or merely for civilian waah waahs after the PM speech.
Simple question Pakis have been asking since long is how tightly should we squeeze the hindu b@lls to elicit a suitable response. So far it has usually been a mere meow on most occassions. Its the same questions mohameddan terrorists are asking across the world - how many bombs and deaths till people respond.
Like other powerful nations, India should first attack and then discuss. Jiski lathi uski bhais - The one with the danda owns the buffalo. Then we can have more credibility of to go over our options and think tanks can be put to better use.
Linking response tolerance to number of casualties is a dhimmi trait. One death or none our response should be standard. If Uri had 200 deaths we would have definitely gone on war kind of attitude defeats the whole idea of every soldier's life is important
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Gagan »

CRamS wrote:So I expect no quick reaction, and as angry as I am, thats the way it should be. Some measured response in between the extremes of Ajay Shukla's surrender and Ram Madhav's jaw for a tooth. And surely as the dust settles, India should not back off from bowing hot on PoK, Glgit, Baluchistan etc. That for sure hurts TSP.
I can't believe CRamS wrote this !
The uber jingo are going soft! :(

It will be interesting to see India's speech at the UNGA. There won't be any response till then. This attack will be brought up there for sure, and a case will be presented that India's patience has come to an end with Pak sponsored terror.
Nawaz in return will only roll out the same old stale nonsense, which the world has gotten bored of.
There is going to be hectic diplomacy taking place from India's side hopefully to create space for any options that might follow.
Time India called Pakistan's bluff, and threw the gauntlet directly at their terror sponsoring army
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Gagan »

Modi going to TSP was to stare down that fauj in their home turf.
He was meeting the Civilian PM, in the land where their fauj rules, in effect showing them their place.
They had to gove him a sort of a ceremonial welcome, provided security, even janjua was not invited, and not to mention the hush hush discussions that took place.

But Nawaz is an interesting character. He has to survive in Pakistan, live under the sword that the generals dangle. It is very possible that Nawaz duly reports back to Pindi whatever he and PM Modi discuss, omitting only the most secret details that pertain to his own personal interests.
Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11240
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Post by Gagan »

A lot of terrorist pigs are living the last few weeks of their lives.
They should take a 'Notuss' and proceed accordingly. Retribution is surely arriving for these terrorists and their sponsors
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