India-Russia: News & Analysis

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 28 Sep 2016 14:14

Philip wrote:Had Pak behaved against Russia the way it has done with India,it would've been decimated long ago.Don't forget the Russians have a very long military history where they defeated Napoleon and Hitler.In Syria right now,they're showing the world how to win battles against a plethora of enemies from east to west.

They must belong to a martial race right?

Just for the record,

Russia - 1979-1989: 15,000 troops killed. 50,000+ injured. 1,500 armoured vehicles & 500 aircraft lost.

India - 1990-2016: 6,000 SF killed. 23,000+ injured.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Sep 2016 14:19

Has Pakistan ever won a war? That's what the Afghans always said about the Pakis,"trying to teach us how to win a war when they have never won one,while we have never lost one!"

The nation that is taking the lead and calling the shots in the Syrian conflict is Russia. It castrated the UKR by regaining the Crimea despite the intense material and diplomatic support to the UKR from the US and EU.Al Biden's visits ended up in a big zero and the UKR politico-oligarchs are now squabbling amongst themselves.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 28 Sep 2016 14:36

Philip wrote:Had Pak behaved against Russia the way it has done with India,it would've been decimated long ago.

It sure as hell doesn't seem to have been 'decimated long ago'.

MohdKav · Post by **MohdKav** » 28 Sep 2016 15:16

Viv S wrote:
Philip wrote:Had Pak behaved against Russia the way it has done with India,it would've been decimated long ago.
It sure as hell doesn't seem to have been 'decimated long ago'.

Where is the like button

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 28 Sep 2016 18:58

>>Had Pak behaved against Russia the way it has done with India,it would've been decimated long ago.

It is by behaving against Russia that way that they learned to play this game with India.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 28 Sep 2016 20:08

Paul wrote:Paki F16s have shot down soviet MIGs in the Afghan war.

When was that? I do not recall a dog-fight between two. Could be an Afganistani operated. That does not make it Soviet. Secondly in those days there was CIA propganda all around so not serious.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 28 Sep 2016 20:26

Will try to dig it up. Remember reading about one such incident.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 28 Sep 2016 20:30

since lot of BRFites are running low on self esteem, let's look at what Unkil would have done.

When NoKo sunk a South Korean ship by literally torpedoing it, what did they do? It's a much more provocative and almost a declaration of war, no? They just conducted more training, switched on few speakers, flew some bombers and..... nada. NoKo is still laughing like mad Joker and the world with longest legs and strongest arms did zilch.

Similarly Iran has been conducting such operations against US troops in Iraq and other places for sometime now. Again what did US do? They signed a nuclear deal with them, unbelievable.

Above statements are oversimplified, but that's the viewpoint of most US citizens just like what Indians think after Uri attack. i.e. their current gov has no balls!!

But in the hindsight what else is the solution, conduct a war on a nation which is already fragile and fracture it with further creating a unmanageable mess next door. That will make sure there is endless supply of soosie boombers will never ever stop.

Only solution is that either -

1> A friendly gov with huge leverage on military comes to power, like Erdogan. This will give us a single point of contact and control where we can negotiate a final solution. Bring a resistance into power and that cannot happen without our support.

Or

2> US uses its leverage in their military to make them stand down and work with their gov.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 28 Sep 2016 20:35

^^Sid ji, leave alone Iran and NoKo... what have they done about Pakistan being directly responsible for the deaths of 1000s of US servicemen in Afghanistan? Given the Pakis more money, more weapons. Even if we assume this is entirely because of dysfunctional policymaking rather than a malicious, chankian US deep state wanting to preserve Pakistan at all costs... we would be daft to rely on any partner that's so obviously, pathologically dysfunctional.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 30 Sep 2016 11:37

Here you go Admiral...these incidents look to be acknowledged by Americans and Soviets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-23

Soviet and Afghan MiG-23s and Pakistani F-16s clashed a few times during the Soviet war in Afghanistan from 1987. Two MiG-23 were claimed shot down in air to air fight by Pakistani F-16s when crossing the border[14] while one F-16 was shot down on 29 April 1987. Pakistani[citation needed] and Western[15] sources consider it a friendly fire incident but the Soviet-backed Afghan government of the time claimed that Soviet aircraft downed the Pakistani F-16 – a claim that The New York Times and the Washington Post also reported.[16][17] According to a Russian version of the event, the F-16 was shot down when Pakistani F-16s encountered Soviet MiG-23MLDs. Soviet MiG-23MLD pilots, while on a bombing raid along the Pakistani-Afghan border, reported being attacked by F-16s and then seeing one F-16 explode. It could have been downed by gunfire from a MiG whose pilot did not report the kill, because Soviet pilots were not allowed to attack Pakistani aircraft without permission.[18]

Does Phillip Saar have a comment to make here?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Sep 2016 13:23

No dispute about aerial battles in the Afghan War. These were border skirmishes which never escalated into a war between Pak and the USSR.The Soviets did not want to widen the war by attacking Pak, for two reasons.One,they were engaged fully with the Afghan mujahideen who were v.heavily armed by the West/US,esp Stingers,which was responsible for diminshing their air superiority.Secondly,any direct attack on Pak would see even more western aid to Pak,possibly even western/US troops,aircraft, involved and it was already looking like the Soviet's version of Vietnam.

Brezhnev took the bait by his mil intervention in Afghanistan to shore up the pro-Soviet regime who were under terror attacks/assassinations from covert ops by the West including the UK.He never read his history of the Afghan Wars that the British undertook,with the famous saying that "you can never own an Afghan,only rent him!" Farcially,even the Brits forgot about their own past experiences and reentered Afghanistan along with the US,NATO forces.They suffered grievously esp. in Helmland and left with tail well tucked between their legs.

Instead of sending in ground troops,the Soviets should''ve limited their intervention to air support and spl. forces just as Putin is doing in Syria.They ground forces of the Northern Alliance and Afghan troops should've been reinforced with weapons,training,etc.This would've reduced Sov. casualties enormously.It could've also resulted in the Soviets possessing permanent air bases in Afghanistan in enclaves .Sov. pilots and technicians would'be been called "mil advisers".Something similar was done in Egypt .

One aspect of the Afghan War remains a mystery.Why when the Pakis were engaged in the Afghan imbroglio,India did not exert pressure on their eastern and northern borders. Was it the Simla agreement?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Sep 2016 13:50

Yes, we thought that they had learnt their lesson in 1971

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Sep 2016 23:40

http://russia-insider.com/en/russias-ne ... um=twitter
Russia’s New Outreach to Pakistan Is All About Arms Sales

Recently, Russia initiated its first ever joint military exercise with Pakistan. A few months earlier, in a first, Russia agreed to sell Mi-35 attack helicopters to Pakistan. Numerous reports also suggest that Pakistan is reportedly in talks with Russia for the purchase of Su-35 combat aircraft. The sale of defense equipment to and military exercises with Pakistan indicate a significant shift in Russian foreign policy.To state that Russia and Pakistan were Cold War enemies is an understatement. Approximately 14,000 Soviet soldiers were killed and more than 35,000 were wounded in Afghanistan from 1979 to 1989. Many of these causalities were the consequence of mujahideen forces that received significant support from Pakistan and the United States. Even after the end of the Cold War, Pakistan was an important U.S. ally. As a consequence, the defense relationship between Russia and Pakistan was very minimal. That seems to be changing now.The perception that evolving India-U.S. defense relationship, at the expense of India-Russia defense trade, may have contributed to the shifts in Russian policy toward Pakistan is erroneous. Contrary to popular opinion, India has spent more money on importing Russian military equipment in the recent past. Calculations based on data from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) show that from 1994-2004 India purchased approximately $11.43 billion worth of defense equipment from Russia. After the India-U.S. nuclear agreement in 2005 until 2014, arms exports from Russia to India amounted to $20.70 billion.rom 1999 to 2003, India received about 23 percent of Russian defense exports, which increased to 24 percent in 2005-2009 and to 39 percent in 2011-2015. In terms of both absolute numbers and as a percentage of Russian exports, India has procured more from Russia in the last ten years than the preceding period. Higher rates of economic growth and growing security concerns prompted India to diversify its defense acquisitions from various countries including the United States. However, such diversification did not happen at the expense of India-Russia defense trade.

The assessment that the shifts in Indian foreign policy caused the changes in Russian approach toward Pakistan is also based on the assumption that Russia always factored India’s security concerns into its defense trade. An examination of the SIPRI data does not bear out this conjecture. For instance, the figure below clearly demonstrates that for a majority of years during 1992-2006, Russia exported more arms to China than to India in terms of value. Only since 2007 has India consistently overtaken China.The Russian sale of defense equipment happened in spite of a clear understanding that China and India have a border dispute. The rapid decline in China-Russia defense trade after 2006 is a consequence of significant enhancement in the domestic capacities of China’s defense industry, not a conscious strategic choice by Moscow. Further, it should be noted that Russia continues to sell critical defense equipment to China. For instance, Russia has agreed to sell 24 Sukhoi Su-35 aircraft to China.
More recently, news agencies have reported that the development of the Chinese fifth-generation J-20 stealth fighter may have been possible only with substantial Russian assistance. Clearly Russia and China have been collaborating very closely on defense and security issues. Such mutually profitable defense cooperation between Russia and China continues in spite of anxiety in India about growing power asymmetry in favor of China.

Similar rational calculations, rather than a sense of hurt over India’s policy, are guiding Russian policy toward Pakistan. Energy resources and defense equipment constitute critical components in Russian exports. Oil prices, which touched about $140 per barrel in 2008, are now hovering around $45 per barrel. This dramatic fall in oil prices generated stress on Russian exports. On the defense exports front, there are long term challenges. Along with India, important destination countries for Russian arms exports include China, Algeria, Vietnam, Venezuela, Azerbaijan, Iran, Syria, Myanmar, and Egypt. Many of these countries are witnessing shifts in their domestic politics, and some are altering their external postures.
During 1999-2003, China received 44 percent of Russian defense exports, which declined to 35 percent in 2005-2009 and reduced further to 11 percent during 2011-2015. China, which was a significant recipient of Russian military equipment, has built domestic defense manufacturing capacities and has now emerged as the third largest defense exporter in the world.To stem further decline, Russia is working its way back into old markets, such as Iraq, as well as expanding into new markets and sees Pakistan as a lucrative prospective client. Pakistan is the seventh largest importer of defense equipment in the world with China and the United States as its leading suppliers. The ecosystem to sustain a domestic defense industry is still in its infancy in Pakistan and its relations with the United States in the recent past have been experiencing some strain. Therefore, there seems to be a growing convergence between Pakistan’s need to diversify its military procurement and Russia’s need to find new defense markets. It is this convergence that has prompted the shift in Russian policy toward Pakistan.

In doing so, Russia is taking a calculated risk that India will not cancel existing defense contracts in large numbers as retaliation for Russia’s new policy toward Pakistan. This bet is based on three assumptions. One, decades of defense purchases in large quantities have ensured that India will be dependent on the Russian defense industry for spares and maintenance for a considerable length of time. Two, since India is not a member of the United Nations Security Council, it will hesitate to antagonize a veto power that had come to its rescue on earlier occasions. The mere threat of censure on international platforms for alleged violation of human rights may compel India to reach out to Russia. Third, Moscow will continue to offer the sale of high-tech strategic defense equipment, which the United States and others may be reluctant to part with.Given these developments, India need not feel guilty about failing to respond to the challenges confronting the Russian defense trade due to shifts in procurement patterns of countries such as China and others – that is neither the function of India nor should it be the objective. Instead of indulging in unwarranted self-flagellation, it would be prudent for India to focus on using trilateral and multilateral frameworks to create financial constraints for Pakistan’s defense imports. More importantly, a quick progress on strengthening domestic defense manufacturing is an urgent necessity.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Sep 2016 23:41

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 30 Sep 2016 23:51

Philip wrote:
One aspect of the Afghan War remains a mystery.Why when the Pakis were engaged in the Afghan imbroglio,India did not exert pressure on their eastern and northern borders. Was it the Simla agreement?

Phil, it's no mystery. The Reagan Administration warned Mrs. G of dire consequences if we did anything to pressurize a nation that was a critical ally for them in fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan... we would be regarded as a full-scale member of the Soviet camp on a frontline conflict of the Cold War, and face the consequences. It was also for this reason that Mrs. G did not go along with an Israeli-mooted plan to knock out Kahuta in the same way as Osirak had been neutralized, using IDFAF jets flying out of Indian bases.

Mrs. G in the 1980s was a very dispirited shadow of what she had been in the early 1970s. After she lost the 1977 elections she cut a sorry figure, and thought seriously about retiring from politics altogether. The return of the Cong(I) to power after the Janata govt. was spearheaded by a campaign under the leadership of Sanjay Gandhi, not Indira. She had all but decided to anoint him her successor and take vanvaas. Then he died in an air crash and she became a ghost of her former self, utterly demoralized even as she ascended to the PM's chair once more.

The Mrs G of the 1980s did not have the fire to stare down USN Carrier Battle Groups and nuclear threats. Her fighting spirit was limited to not criticizing the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan. That was about all she had left in her.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 30 Sep 2016 23:53

What an arrogant article. India should slowly reduce arms purchases from Russia.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 01 Oct 2016 00:24

It is interesting to note some of the "esteemed / untouchable" russia rakshaks on BRF keep hawking the grand friendship with Russia when this article clearly shows a buyer seller relationship only.

arun · Post by **arun** » 01 Oct 2016 14:18

Official Press Release by Russia’s Foreign Ministry.

Note last line where the Mohammadden Terrorist fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan is specifically and solely called upon to “take effective measures to stop the activities of terrorist groups in its territory” particularly the words “in its territory”.

Does this mean that Russia is okay with terrorist acivities in Non-Pakistani territory such as Pakistan Occupied Jammu & Kashmir?

Or does this mean that Russia considers Pakistan Occupied Jammu & Kashmir as Pakistani Territory?

Trust our MEA will seek a clarification from the Russian’s :

30 September 2016 16:45
Comment by the Information and Press Department on the rise in tensions along the Line of Control between India and Pakistan

1778-30-09-2016

We are concerned over the latest rise in tensions along the Line of Control between India and Pakistan.

We are calling on the parties to avoid an escalation of tensions and to resolve the existing problems by political and diplomatic means through talks.

We advocate a resolute fight against all manifestations of terrorism.

We hope that the Pakistani Government will take effective measures to stop the activities of terrorist groups in its territory.

Clicky

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 01 Oct 2016 20:18

Russians are welcome to move out of Crimea and peacefully discuss with Ukraine to come to a negotiated settlement. While at it, it is advisable for Russians to talk to US and sort out their issues over Syria and stop the human rights abuse that Russian attacks have caused in Syria.

A wannabe be first rate power, stuck in the second rung, dreams of being a Glorified North Korea is hoping napakis will help them to get there, does not lack wit to go on a preaching spree to others.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Oct 2016 01:26

Not seen the write up but one channel used the phrase "so-called Azad K" in an Ru communique.I haven't come across any Ru change in policy reg.POK.No exercises with Paki forces were hrld in POK.
Anyway the Pakis have been humiliatingly asked "to work with India "in eliminating the terror camps on its territory.
Let's not forget that all our key mil cutting edge eqpt. comes from Russia which has not stopped supplying us with their latest mil eqpt,while most of Paki mil eqpt is of US and PRC origin.
PS:
Pl read categoric Ru statement in Sridhar's post
in the Terrorist ........unstable Pak.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 02 Oct 2016 04:49

Jwalamukhi what u said above does not qualify even as garbage because that is also useful.Just to let u know crimea has a special place in russian psyche, it is literally a cemetry of fallen russian soldiers over the centuries. Russia will be willing to go to war with anyone including the US over crimea. There is no question of giving it back to Ukraine. As to being a glorified north korea that statement does not deserve a response.

Russia being responsible for war crimes in Syria, really . I do not think u understand anything about the war in Syria. The war was imposed on syria by the gulfies and western powers it has nothing to do with russia.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 02 Oct 2016 08:37

snahata wrote:Just to let u know crimea has a special place in russian psyche, it is literally a cemetry of fallen russian soldiers over the centuries. Russia will be willing to go to war with anyone including the US over crimea. There is no question of giving it back to Ukraine.

Ah, only wish some of the Russians displayed such deep understanding of Pakistan region as ever so eager their ~~friends~~, nay worshippers in India display about crimea. If only, a few taller than mountain and deeper than ocean buddies Russians understood as to how much Lahore (since Ramayana times or earlier) has special place in Indian Psyche, they would have atleast have had courtesy to not mouth assinine statements about peace and talks with napakis, much less play games inside napak during inopportune times. Hey, such understanding of the psyche and one-sided love affair burden is being borne only by Indians who are smitten with Nehruvian legacy.

Russians have leveraged such "useful people" in India starting with Nehru for a long time now. Few things that Nehru handled has resulted in good for India. Times are changing, such intense blind admiration even at the cost of disregarding their(Russian) behavior is going to be questioned. One better get used to it.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Oct 2016 00:36

Questioned by whom? Only the chest beaters of the west.Syria is a failed regime change attempt by the US and its camel driver partners in crime,the Soothis and Gulfies and would be neo-Ottoman sultan.ISIS their creation. Russia called their bluff.India is NOT questioning any action by Russia in Syria and we recognise the Assad regime.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 03 Oct 2016 05:07

JwalaMukhi wrote:
snahata wrote:Just to let u know crimea has a special place in russian psyche, it is literally a cemetry of fallen russian soldiers over the centuries. Russia will be willing to go to war with anyone including the US over crimea. There is no question of giving it back to Ukraine.
Ah, only wish some of the Russians displayed such deep understanding of Pakistan region as ever so eager their ~~friends~~, nay worshippers in India display about crimea. If only, a few taller than mountain and deeper than ocean buddies Russians understood as to how much Lahore (since Ramayana times or earlier) has special place in Indian Psyche, they would have atleast have had courtesy to not mouth assinine statements about peace and talks with napakis, much less play games inside napak during inopportune times. Hey, such understanding of the psyche and one-sided love affair burden is being borne only by Indians who are smitten with Nehruvian legacy.

Russians have leveraged such "useful people" in India starting with Nehru for a long time now. Few things that Nehru handled has resulted in good for India. Times are changing, such intense blind admiration even at the cost of disregarding their(Russian) behavior is going to be questioned. One better get used to it.

Nah! Not gonna happen. Those quick to label non-believers as "Macaulayites" still hold dear past issues of the Pioneer magazine with its photos of Natashas' windswept blond locks against the back drop of tractors tilling/harvesting wheat. Their progeny are named Anoushka, Lara, Stalin (??).

The current Russki lot are extortionists and they get their kilo of flesh from us in the form of yesterday's junk in exchange for 'moral support' in the UNSC.

Most Russians today have a dim view of Indians and India. We OTOH....

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Oct 2016 13:08

Most Russians today have a dim view of Indians and India. We OTOH....

Most Indians who have visited Russia recently rave about the country and the friendliness of its people towardss India and Indians.Well,the :junk" we have been sold ,like BMos,etc.,is what will crush the perfidious Pakis .This "junk" in '71 dismembered them,perhaps history will repeat itself.By the way what arms and from where do the Pakis get their mil capability? F-16s,Orions,Harpoons,TOW,etc.,etc.!

bahdada · Post by **bahdada** » 03 Oct 2016 14:33

^^^What are you talking about? Even a 4hr transit through Moscow gives me the creeps. Russians by and large go out of their way to be rude and wear there racism on their sleeves. Screaming at Indians or anyone dark enough is common fixture. This pipe dream of deep seated affection the Russians have towards anyone let alone us darkies is quite amusing.

habal · Post by **habal** » 03 Oct 2016 14:59

From my limited experience of Russians, I have understood they are distinct from Soviets like these:

Russians are white nationalists, they are not white supremacist type racist nationalists, but they are proud of what they are. No political correctness there in that dept. They are assertive of their Orthodox identity and are protective about it.

the old timer soviet Russians used to connect to Indians on overwhelming basis of ideology, no so much anymore except for some old timers.

But significantly, the present Russians are very appreciative of any work well done irrespective or race, religion etc. They are fond of the good things in life and are mostly western market oriented, but will appreciate and admire anything that comes out of anyplace that is well made, well machined, well manufactured and they want to absorb the latest technologies and latest skills wherever they come from. They are open with praise in anything that they appreciate, irrespective where it comes from, and not racist about it. They do not hesitate to praise any philosophy if they feel it is better than theirs. They will like to absorb everything but it should appeal to them. They make friends easily and none of the hang ups we see in western elite.

In contrast to this racist anglo-saxons and anglo-zionists are genuinely racist and nothing can ever satisfy them, nothing from anywhere except in their small bubble.

arun · Post by **arun** » 03 Oct 2016 18:12

Video of CNN-News 18 interview of Alexander M Kadakin, Russia’s Ambassador to India.

All in all pretty supportive of India.

Note:
A.His stressing that the Uri attack came from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
B.Call on the Islamic Republic to cease cross border terror
C.Support for India’s surgical strike
D.Use of term "Pakistan-Occupied Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir"
E.Falling in line with India and terming terrorism as the greatest human right violation just as India has done at the UN
F.Comment that the Uniformed Jihadis of Pakistani army “use itself for terror attacks against India”:

Youtube - Clicky

Text of the accompanying article put out by CNN-News 18 follows:

New Delhi: Backing India’s surgical strikes against terror camps in Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir (PoK) the Russian ambassador to India, Alexander M Kadakin, said that Russian Federation was the only country to say in plain words that terrorists came from Pakistan.

In an exclusive interview with CNN News18, he called upon Pakistan to stop trans-border terror.

He said that his country had always been with India in fighting cross-border terrorism.

“Greatest Human Rights violations take place when terrorists attack military installations and attack peaceful civilians in India. We welcome the surgical strike. Every country has right to defend itself,” said the Russian Ambassador.

Assuring India that it does not need to worry about Russia-Pakistan joint military exercise, he said the exercises didn't take place in "Pakistan-Occupied Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir".

The usage of the word/term “Pakistan-Occupied Indian State of Jammu and Kashmir” assumes a lot of importance.

“India should not be concerned about military exercises between Russia and Pakistan because the theme of the exercise is anti-terror fighting. That's in India’s interests that we teach Pakistani army not to use itself for terror attacks against India. And the exercise was not held in any sensitive or problematic territories like Pakistan-occupied Indian state of Jammu," said the Russian Ambassador.

Here:

Clicky

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 03 Oct 2016 20:33

Habalji +108 for your post. You are 400% correct in your analysis. Old timer "Soviets" are the ones' keeping Putin in power. While the "White" Russians you are talking about, consider Putin as the mafia that he is. Although, they do support his stand on Ukraine/Crimea etc.

Some Russians that i know of wouldn't even mind losing some parts of their Asian territories, so that they are percieved as an European power rather than an Asian one. They also would like the monarchy to be restored.

This is going to be a tough one for the "Whites" they are losing their gene pool very quickly and their major cities like Moscow, St.Petersburg are inundated with migration from their central asian republics.

I have had the good fortune to spend 2 weeks in St.Petersburg and in general found the folks quite inquisitive & curious. Some would approach and try conversing in broken english. For me it was very easy to spot the difference between soviets and russians, thanks to my companion. Soviets very distinctly dress up differently, have expression less faces. They will stare at you in metros or buses as if you are an alien

Overall it was a very rich experience, the people that I did manage to talk to (in english) were very friendly and appreciative of other cultures. They appreciate Yoga and even Bharat Natyam, Ancient Indian/Chinese philosophy way more than the uptight Anglo-Saxons, who always try to deride other cultures.

As an afterthought I would just like to add, not one "white" Russian that I came across went gaga over Raj Kapoor, or the fact that I am from India. I felt treated just like any other foreigner.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make, is that it would heed well for Rakshaks & India in general, to deal with Russia & Russians in todays terms and forget about the bonhomie that we may have shared in the past with the Soviets.

Jai hind!

habal wrote:From my limited experience of Russians, I have understood they are distinct from Soviets like these:
.....<snip>

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 03 Oct 2016 20:51

The myth of idyllic Indo-Russian ties

Balanced article which clearly illustrates that Indo-Soviet ties were driven by mutual interests and not by mutual love!!

The origins of this strategic relationship lay in Moscow’s growing rift with Beijing from 1959. The Soviets not only refused to support China in its territorial disputes with India, but also offered MiG-21s to India. Yet, in October 1962, when the Chinese conveyed to the Soviets their decision to attack India, Nikita Khrushchev, then Soviet premier, executed a volte-face. He told the Chinese that there was “no place for neutrality” and put the supply of MiGs on hold. During the war, Moscow shared with Beijing its intelligence on India. It was the Indian turn towards the US that led Khrushchev to revert to his earlier stance.

At the same time, Moscow sought to build bridges with Pakistan—not least because of the growing proximity between Pakistan and China. When Lal Bahadur Shastri travelled to Moscow in May 1965, he was shocked by Khrushchev’s successor Leonid Brezhnev’s unwillingness to condemn the Pakistani incursion into the Rann of Kutch. During the India-Pakistan war, the Russians played an important role in arranging a ceasefire. Subsequently, at Tashkent, they leaned on India to revert to status quo ante and return all captured territory.

Thereafter, the Soviets sought to maintain a balance in South Asia between India and Pakistan. They believed that a conflict between these countries would play to China’s advantage. In late 1968 they announced military sales to Pakistan, triggering a furore in India. Indira Gandhi bluntly told Premier Alexei Kosygin: “Nothing should be done from which it could be inferred that the Soviet Union treated India at par with Pakistan.” Moscow backed off because it now sought a treaty of friendship with India. This desire stemmed from the Sino-Soviet border clashes along the Ussuri river.

India agreed to sign the treaty only in the summer of 1971, when there was a convergence between the US, China and Pakistan on the Bangladesh crisis. Until then, Moscow had advised India not to precipitate a war. And New Delhi hoped to change the Soviet stance by inking the treaty. Much to India’s chagrin, Moscow’s position did not immediately shift. The Soviet foreign minister told Gandhi that they should not “prejudge” whether East Pakistan should become independent: “The heart should be warm but the mind should be cool.” Only after Gandhi’s trip to Moscow in October 1971 did the Soviet leadership take a more supportive stance. Yet, after the Simla agreement of 1972, they insisted that India should not hold back the 93,000 Pakistani prisoners of war.

Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, the Soviet relationship was crucial for India because of its exclusivity. The USSR—unlike the US—would not provide military equipment or intelligence to Pakistan or China. Soviet technical and financial assistance as well as trade added layers to the strategic relationship.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 04 Oct 2016 03:14

habal,s understanding is fairly accurate. I would like to add a few points, having worked with russians for over 2 decades on a daily basis.One can not understand any culture by a 4 hour ride in a train. Russian jews and orthodox russians look the same (minor differrence in the nose, orthodox russians with upturned nose tip).
The difference in behavior is so gross that after all these years I can recognize a orthodox russian just by their behavior without looking at the cross ( and I would be correct 80-90% of the time ). Russian nurses are almost always well behaved and pleasant and caring ( sometime under difficult circumstances)while the same russians of the jewish variety are almost always nasty as though they own the whole country( and they do )

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 04 Oct 2016 05:42

“India should not be concerned about military exercises between Russia and Pakistan because the theme of the exercise is anti-terror fighting. That's in India’s interests that we teach Pakistani army not to use itself for terror attacks against India. And the exercise was not held in any sensitive or problematic territories like Pakistan-occupied Indian state of Jammu," said the Russian Ambassador.

Need to send our cricket spinners to learn from Russian Ambassador.
Yes sire bob, one looks at playboy magazine to read the articles. It is important that one understands such reading is helpful for not only the reader, but also for others, because it aids the magazine to publish more such articles and not other evil pictures.

Do not know for who this message is, probably if one had Nehru as ones last name, s/he would fall for it hook, line and sinker.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 04 Oct 2016 06:08

Philip wrote:Most Russians today have a dim view of Indians and India. We OTOH....

Most Indians who have visited Russia recently rave about the country and the friendliness of its people towardss India and Indians.Well,the :junk" we have been sold ,like BMos,etc.,is what will crush the perfidious Pakis .This "junk" in '71 dismembered them,perhaps history will repeat itself.By the way what arms and from where do the Pakis get their mil capability? F-16s,Orions,Harpoons,TOW,etc.,etc.!

Dear Philip, I have often thought of you as the Don Quixote of BRF and I nurture a fondness for your posts on why Beriev amphibious a/c could be transformational.

That said, the average Russian does not like a dark skin. They slot you as someone as a gipsy or from the Caucasus illegally in Moscow, bent on blowing up things.On a corporate trip two weeks ago, from airport to restaurants (including Savva), "people not like us" were harassed and demeaned to the point where everyone in our group exploded in anger.

Not the Soviets of old.

Just my experience

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 04 Oct 2016 07:29

sorry to hear of your experience cosmo . I have heard also that sometime younger generation in russia can be like this . I was talking about russians in US including the young ones fairly well behaved.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Oct 2016 09:59

Personally me and my collegues have faced Racism while on Business trip to Gelf , some Europeean countries , Australia and US but personal experience apart. Generally US and some EU countries are more racist then others.

Analysis: 10 most racist countries in the world

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Oct 2016 10:55

So much for the "myth" of Indo-Russian bonhomie! Sceptics pl read.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 660025.cms

Russia backs surgical strikes, says India has the right to defend itself

TNN Oct 4, 2016, 09.33 AM IST

HIGHLIGHTS
Russian ambassador to India Alexander Kadakin categorically welcomed Indian raids on terrorist launchpads across the LoC.
Kadakin said every country had the right to act in self-defence and called on Islamabad to act against cross-border terrorism.

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NEW DELHI: Clearing up speculation over his country's recent military exercise with Pakistan, Russian ambassador to India Alexander Kadakin categorically welcomed Indian raids on terrorist launchpads across the LoC.
In a strong endorsement of the Indian action that goes beyond the American statements and extends Pakistan's isolation beyond south Asia, Kadakin said every country had the right to act in self-defence and called on Islamabad to act against cross-border terrorism.
Kadakin said the exercise with Pakistan was in fact intended to encourage that country not to target its neighbour.
"India should not be concerned about military exercises between Russia and Pakistan because the theme of the exercise is anti-terror fighting. That's in India's interests that we teach Pakistani army not to use itself for terror attacks against India.
And the exercise was not held in any sensitive or problematic territories like the Pakistan-occupied Indian state of Jammu & Kashmir," said the Russian ambassador.
"The greatest human rights violations take place when terrorists attack military installations and attack peaceful civilians in India.
We welcome the surgical strike. Every country has right to defend itself," Kadakin was quoted as having told a news channel.
Russia had earlier issued a statement asking Pakistan to take "effective steps" to check terrorist activities on its soil. After the Uri attack, it had said: "Regarding the Pathankot Indian air base attack in January 2016, we are very concerned about the terrorist attacks near the Line of Control. We are also concerned about the fact that, according to New Delhi, the Army base near Uri was attacked from Pakistani territory."
Russia had raised some concern in Delhi with its anti-terror exercise in Pakistan coming at a time when India was looking to diplomatically isolate Pakistan on the issue of terrorism.

However, Russia had even then sought to assuage India's apprehensions by saying the exercise would not take place in areas that are subject to a dispute between India and Pakistan.
This was the first such military exercise between the two countries in Pakistan. Kadakin, however, said Russia had only acted in India's interests by conducting the exercise with Pakistan.

In its statement last week, Russia had said it was concerned with the aggravation of the situation along the LoC between India and Pakistan. It called for the parties not to allow any escalation of tension and to settle the existing problems by political and diplomatic means through negotiations.
"We stand for decisive struggle against terrorism in all its manifestations. We expect the government of Pakistan to take effective steps in order to stop the activities of terrorists' groups in the territory of the country," it had said.

PS:No wonder Gen.Bandoicoot the Mush-a-rat moaned on Paki tv that Pak was internationally isolated and its diplomacy had failed.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 04 Oct 2016 11:08

Then why are Russian troops in PoK

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 04 Oct 2016 11:19

Bheeshma wrote:Then why are Russian troops in PoK

Are they? I thought the initial reports were about them being in some place near Chitral. Close to PoK but not actually in it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Oct 2016 12:58

INDRA-2016 India-Russia joint military exercise

http://in.rbth.com/multimedia/pictures/ ... ise_635251

The exercises serve to facilitate cooperation and foster the exchange of relevant experience between the Indian and Russian armed forces.
By Boris Egorov, RIR

Russia and India are holding INDRA drills since 2003.

India-Russia joint drills INDRA-2016 took place in the Ussiriysk District in Vladivostok, Russia.

The exercises were held on September 23 - October 2.

Over 500 servicemen, 50 units of equipment, a group of UAVs, and assault and army aviation took part in the drills.

Troops of both countries got the chance to practice working with each other over the course of eleven days.

250 soldiers of the Kumaon Regiment represented the Indian Contingent.

The Russian Armed Forces were represented by 250 soldiers from the 59th Motorized Infantry Brigade.

Main focus of the drill was on counter-terrorism operations in semi-mountainous and jungle terrain under United Nations mandate.

Two mechanized infantry companies, a tank company, howitzer, self-propelled artillery and rocket batteries; a flamethrower squad took part in the drills.

Military personnel used Russia's Orlan-10 drone to strike simulated terrorist groups.

Russia and India have maintained a close partnership in military and technical cooperation for decades.

The exercises serve to facilitate cooperation and foster the exchange of relevant experience between the Indian and Russian armed forces

Next INDRA joint drills to be held in 2017.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Oct 2016 13:57

UNSC not discussing India-Pak tensions: Russia

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 670626.cms

"I don't want to go there, don't want to go there. No no please, I don't want to go there," Russia's Ambassador to the UN Vitaly Churkin said as he quickly interrupted a question on India and Pakistan tensions during a press briefing here yesterday.

Churkin was addressing the media as Russia assumed the Presidency of the 15-nation Council for the month of October.

When asked why he would not comment on the issue, Churkin said "because I am President of the Security Council. The Security Council has not been discussing it (the India-Pakistan situation).

"Sorry sir, I don't want to go there. No comment, no comment, sorry please," Churkin said.

When asked again why he and Russia were "so reluctant" to discuss the India-Pakistan situation, Churkin said, "I'm sure you know. There are so many other things."

Churkin's remarks come as a clear snub to Pakistan, which had approached the Security Council just last week on the surgical strikes conducted by India to target terror launch pads across the Line of Control as well as on the Kashmir issue.