Psy-Ops techniques employed to sucker Indians

[Aditya_V]

WTF, Ravana being a Keralite- , this is getting weirder and weirder. Why would anyone identify with Ravana he was no link with anybody in present day and age. The secular myths are funnier by the day.

[hnair]

I also heard a construct which other BRFites from Kerala can help me understand, "Onam is secular hence we all celebrate but Diwali is not".

Onam is following the commercialisation route of Christmas in the west. In the west, particularly the US, down the last decade, Christmas became "Holidays and traditions" rather than religious rituals (church mass, choir et al), so more demographics can be sold merchandise et al. heck, Fox News runs updates on "war on christmas", where they talk about the latest town hall that said "no" to the Nativity Scene etc, but run ads for all sorts of haram gifts

Likewise, Onam is being intensely marketed as "an ancient harvest festival", so more of the consumers can be targeted. The Kerala christians are game anyways, since they control most of retail business, but the muslims had no easy links, but then a "mosque festival"(haram!) here, a puli-kali (double-haram) there etc got shoe-horned into that Onam week, so they dont sulk in the corner.

Matter of time before Deepavali gets the same "commercialisation" treatment. It is easier to sell that crotchless-panties without religion's moral dilemnas to deal with, if it is just a "holiday"

[hnair]

whoa... Ravana is a keralite
Goddamn, he had the best sensor array

[abhischekcc]

Ravan was probably a Bengali

[hnair]

Ravan was probably a Bengali

most certainly not a malayali. Atleast 4 of his 10 heads would have unionised and conducted a hartal against dinner

[prahaar]

Thanks for the detailed responses, I was mainly taken aback by the "secular festival" term. Ravan being Keralite is straight from Burkha Bibi's book. My Tamil friend Sriram was fuming when BB claimed that Tamils support Ravana.

[panduranghari]

From STFUP thread

Kindly stop throwing these ppp, gdp numbers around when half of the population struggles to feed itself properly. Having more than 600 million people who are frankly just making India an overpopulated, polluted 3rd world nation is nothing to be proud of.

The west does this bashing. On BBC question time, its quite repetitive and now very boring.

Jamwal ji,
If you have lived in the west, you might have noticed how disfunctional they are too.

Housing -People cannot afford homes, so the government gives them subsidised homes. The tenants (mostly for life) pay a tenth of the market rate, because the rest is made up from the local levies which everyone has to pay. The utilities are subsidised too. Take all these away, the people will live on the street or in shanties like we see any poor country.

Food- Many people in the west live hand to mouth, rely on food banks. School students where family incomes are below a threshold, do not pay for school meals. The per week fee for these meals are less than Rs 100 in Indian terms. But many still find it difficult to make ends meet. So when you claim, many in India cannot struggle to feed themselves, I do not disagree. But that it true for the so called developed west.

Population- the reason Merkel opened doors for the scum from West Asia was because of demographics. The west, baring the US, is well and truly stuffed. Either they take a giant leap in robotics within the next 20 years or accept diminished levels of service providers. Gone will be the social security and the assorted benefits. Of course, Merkel did not know the West Asian people were scum until she opened the doors. Many things like cheap labour we take for granted wont be the case going forward. Its more so for the west than for us. Unlike Milton Friedman, in 1970's, who denounced Indian population and hence its poverty, has been shown wrong by many studies (conducted in the west no less). It was mainly due to poor governance. And we are addressing that issue.

Pollution- West is really going hammer and tongs over the waste treatment. And we certainly need to catch up. West, however, sends the untreatable waste to the developing nations like electronics to Nigeria, junk ships to India. They would like to get rid of their nuclear waste, if someone would be willing to take it in.
--xx--
Lets not be a sucker and use the thing west uses to bash Indian technology, space program, military spending, etc., by using those same reasons ourselves.

[shiv]

Exclusive: Act against militants or face international isolation, civilians tell military

Any Indian who believes anything in that article is yet another victim of slick and timely Pakistani psy-ops

[JayS]

There is a tendency in Indians, I have observed, trying to do equal-equal for things. I am unable to put it in words exactly but I will give it a try.

For example, if someone says Islam is bad, the response is, "Ya, that way all religions are bad in some sense..". If you say, Islam is more political system than a belief system, then you get a response, "Ya, that way all religions are political systems..".

This tendency leads to collective punishment. If one student is wrong rather than isolating him just punish entire class, scold everyone. Its like being politically correct but not exactly. I mean its not just for show off on the face of it, but it comes from very deep inside from the psych.

If some Indian guy is putting forth some points to prove how Abrahamic religions are terrible, the opposite guy has just to say some general statement against Hinduism and this Indian guy immediately changes his line to, "Ya, I mean Hinduism is also bad, all religions are bad.."

This tendency of not being able to see things from a realistic point of view and not being able to isolate a particularly bad thing from other less bad things on an objective basis, makes Indians very vulnerable to the psy-ops coming from the other end IMO. I mean some small stone thrown at you and you immediately go on backfoot even if you had a mountain to throw at them.

[chetak]

Thanks for the detailed responses, I was mainly taken aback by the "secular festival" term. Ravan being Keralite is straight from Burkha Bibi's book. My Tamil friend Sriram was fuming when BB claimed that Tamils support Ravana.

they have some temples for him in TN but that does not mean that he was a tamil or even from kerala.

secular may not be the correct word but universal (in a limited sense) may be a better term, given the social milieu of kerala as it exist(s)(ed)??

[jamwal]

From STFUP thread

--xx--
Lets not be a sucker and use the thing west uses to bash Indian technology, space program, military spending, etc., by using those same reasons ourselves.

I don't disagree, but my point was more about economy and he actual utility of such a large population in general. Of what use is vast majority of muslm population which can't be trusted to even respect the flag or lives of non-muslims ? Or how'd you expect getting any useful labour, intellect from malnourished, ignorant people ? They will only care for their day-to-day survival rather than work for betterment of the country.

There is a tendency in Indians, I have observed, trying to do equal-equal for things. I am unable to put it in words exactly but I will give it a try.

For example, if someone says Islam is bad, the response is, "Ya, that way all religions are bad in some sense..". If you say, Islam is more political system than a belief system, then you get a response, "Ya, that way all religions are political systems..".
.

I'm the last person you'll see doing it. My point was posters using GDP as a benchmark of how India is much better than other countries when in my rather limited knowledge, actual utility of such benchmarks is very doubtful. Of what good is a 3 trillion dollar GDP if it has to be shared between 2 billion people ? I'd rather have 2 trillion GDP with 600 million people. A very large portion of population in India is a dead weight dragging the country down. It is making everything expensive, crowded, dangerous and polluted.

[JayS]

^^ My post has nothing to do with what you were saying. In fact I haven't even read it.

[hanumadu]

Kindly stop throwing these ppp, gdp numbers around when half of the population struggles to feed itself properly. Having more than 600 million people who are frankly just making India an overpopulated, polluted 3rd world nation is nothing to be proud of.

India ranks 33 if you list countries by population density. Some of the country that have a higher population density than us are not so small. Bangladesh for example. England (not UK) has a higher population density than us. And it is a cold country with snow for 6 months. If you exclude vast inhospitable parts of China like Xingiang, Tibet it's population density will be similar to India's.

[Chandragupta]

There is a tendency in Indians, I have observed, trying to do equal-equal for things. I am unable to put it in words exactly but I will give it a try.

For example, if someone says Islam is bad, the response is, "Ya, that way all religions are bad in some sense..". If you say, Islam is more political system than a belief system, then you get a response, "Ya, that way all religions are political systems..".

This tendency leads to collective punishment. If one student is wrong rather than isolating him just punish entire class, scold everyone. Its like being politically correct but not exactly. I mean its not just for show off on the face of it, but it comes from very deep inside from the psych.

If some Indian guy is putting forth some points to prove how Abrahamic religions are terrible, the opposite guy has just to say some general statement against Hinduism and this Indian guy immediately changes his line to, "Ya, I mean Hinduism is also bad, all religions are bad.."

This tendency of not being able to see things from a realistic point of view and not being able to isolate a particularly bad thing from other less bad things on an objective basis, makes Indians very vulnerable to the psy-ops coming from the other end IMO. I mean some small stone thrown at you and you immediately go on backfoot even if you had a mountain to throw at them.

If I got a cent every time I spoke the truth about Islam and nobody brought in Hinduism/Caste/Sati, I'd end up with 0 dollars.

Everytime I open my mouth to tell some pseudo liberal contact about what Islam really is & what Quran actually contains, some of them are really aghast that I'm talking ill about a religion (when all I'm doing is quoting the book to them, which they haven't even read!) and either shut down the discussion or the more delusional ones bring in Hinduism - caste, oppression of women, sati & blah blah. I still usually rip them another one but by then the discussion has been diluted so much, it doesn't make much sense to take it further. They cannot grasp that two religions can be so different, to them all religions are same. We Hindus must have a gene for this which makes us prime prospects for extinction within the next 1000 years.

[prahaar]

Having temples for Ravana is not surprising, given the fact that Sahastrabahu temples also exist.

[maxratul]

One of the biggest issues that I see is when deficiencies in one aspect are brought up to downplay or trivialize achievements in completely unrelated area.

There are lots of examples -

1. India sent a mission to Mars - "Shame so many people defecate in the open"
2. Arihant is undergoing trials - "Poor children are malnourished"
3. LCA is operational - "There arent enough primary schools/hospitals"

The new york times cartoon was blatant, but you see this tone/style of coverage in most international publications, if not all.

I am calling this Misdirection by implying Exclusive Primacy of Needs & Scarcity of Resources:

India is a poor country. Poor people need food education healthcare. Hence money spent on anything else is waste.

The response, in my mind, obviously has to be

"Why do we always assume that A is at the cost of B? Why cant both be important?"

We at BRF moan about abysmal spending and investment on defence, research and tech, and this is one of the primary reasons why the indian public does not demand more development on these sectors.

[panduranghari]

One of the reason why there is still a tendency to not demand more development - there is still a place where the 'westernised' Indians have to go to, if things do not work out in India. They still think their western passports will permit them from escaping the persecution by 'Hindutvavadis', the poverty, the filth.

That west is a land of milk and honey is a myth that needs to be debunked. That itself is a slow process.



People like Tunku are obnoxious because they can run away to the west. When 'the west' is not 'the west' anymore, these miserable people will become less obnoxious. Or so we hope.

[shiv]

One of the most sophisticated techniques used by the ISI to make Indians (and Americans) look like illiterate buffoons is the space given in Pakistan to "Liberal voices" - in English. No liberalism in Urdu or Punjabi.

So these "liberal voices" of Pakistan fall into two categories - which is not apparent by their appearance or behaviour. One set are agents who are fully dedicated to the Pakistani cause but live a wealthy dedicated "liberal life" . Pakistan has many such people - but their liberalism is not "anti army" - or if it is anti army it is always liberalism that blames everyone for being bad. "There is terrorism every where. We are all victims. All armies are bad". Of course their behaviour is liberal. Uncovered women. Staging of fashion shows and "Vagina Monologues"

Among these there are a few voices who step out of line - and is those who step out of line are able to communicate in Urdu then they are rapidly eliminated or silenced. Cyril Almeida, Hoodbhoy and on occasion Khaled Ahmed show traces of liberalism and revolt - but in English. They are subtle - get into some trouble but are generally kept safe from harm because their liberalism is useful.

But if you look at people who tell the truth in Urdu:
Salim Shezad was killed
Najam Sethi was beaten up
Qandeel Baloch was killed

Saman Taseer was a person who was a pukka Paki Islamist liberal. But his liberalism about blasphemy got him kiled.

Khaled Ahmed states in his book that Musharaf openly declared that he would be killed if he did anything about Paki blasphemy laws.

But Paki liberals can say things in English that foreigners understand and they are tolerated up to a point because they give the impression of a soft democratic state. Indians and Americans are suckered

[Lilo]

^
Yes nice point Shiv ji.
Applies exactly in the same way to the socalled "liberal" muslim voices in India.

The same show "liberal" muslims taking liberal stands regularly in Indian english/hindi talkshows penthe most medieval of the Islamist tripe in their urdu script dailies & magazines published in India.
Taking total advantage of the fact that non-muslims in India cant read urdu(nastaliq) script.

https://storify.com/abbipatil/tufail-ah ... any-avatar

http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/ ... e-of-allah

[pankajs]

Hope this is not OT. I am halfway through the book. Quite good.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28815.Influence
Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert B. Cialdini

4.16 · Rating Details · 44,513 Ratings · 1,558 Reviews
Influence, the classic book on persuasion, explains the psychology of why people say "yes"—and how to apply these understandings. Dr. Robert Cialdini is the seminal expert in the rapidly expanding field of influence and persuasion. His thirty-five years of rigorous, evidence-based research along with a three-year program of study on what moves people to change behavior has ...more
--------------------------------------------------------->
Charles Munger, partner of Berkshire Chairman Warren Buffett, was so impressed with the book that along with a thank you note he sent the prof one share of Class A Berkshire Hathaway now worth upwards of $200,000.

He has released another book on Persuasion that I intend to read after I am done with this one.
--------------------------------------------------------->
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29238799-pre-suasion
Pre-Suasion: A Revolutionary Way to Influence and Persuade by Robert B. Cialdini

4.3 · Rating Details · 121 Ratings · 22 Review
The author of the legendary bestseller Influence, social psychologist Robert Cialdini shines a light on effective persuasion and reveals that the secret doesn’t lie in the message itself, but in the key moment before that message is delivered.

[shiv]

Let me cross post something that I posted in the Mil forum about how existing information can be used to "twist facts" and present a picture that is false.
This was the subject of known verifiable facts and statements made that cannot be verified or proven to be false

We are dealing with 2 different streams of information here
1. Verifiable facts/information
2. Conclusions/statements based on what people believe to be true which are not verifiable

This is actually a fantastic mix for either massive misinformation or a soap opera. We regularly accuse the media of doing this but we do it routinely ourselves.

Let give some examples of verifiable information based on reports and statements over the years

1. Tejas is being inducted into the Air Force
2. By most accounts about 120 are expected to join the IAF
3. The CAS is on record confirming this as well as being positive about his flight in the Tejas
4. The IAF was impressed with the Rafale, and the CAS is on record (as per media reports quoting him) that more would be nice if needed
5. The Rafale is a different class of aircraft from Tejas
6. There is news doing the rounds that a second line of fighters will be set up. This has been stated by Parikkar and the CAS. No details available
7. Throughout the Rafale negotiation saga neither SAAB nor LM stated that they were out of the race
8. There were many scams during the UPA regime

Here is a list of a few personal impressions and unverifiable claims made by people (which I can recall off hand). Ideally these should not be mixed up with verifiable facts - but we do mix them up leading to conclusions that are part verifiable and part fiction/unverifiable

1. IAF has abandoned Tejas
2. IAF is against Tejas
3. IAF loves only imports
4. CAS is old guard left over from UPA regime
5. India is looking to kill all indigenous programs
6. Government is looking to hand over things to Reliance

When you mix up verifiable fact and unverifiable conclusions you get something like this:

"Burhan Wani was killed in army action" is a verifiable fact.
"Buhan Wani was the son of a school headmaster" - maybe verifiable fact
Putting the two together implies: "Burhan Wani, killed by the Indian army was the son of a cultured educated family and hardly the type who could be accused of being violent. the Indian Army's violence speaks for itself

On this note we can mix up verifiable fact and reach Barkha like conclusions which can easily be denied

Facts:
4. The IAF was impressed with the Rafale, and the CAS is on record (as per media reports quoting him) that more would be nice if needed
5. The Rafale is a different class of aircraft from Tejas
8. There were many scams during the UPA regime

Conclusions:
2. IAF is against Tejas
3. IAF loves only imports
4. CAS is old guard left over from UPA regime

Just sayin..

[Gus]

they have some temples for him in TN

where?

I have lived in a dozen places in TN and never heard of this. I know couple of people named Ravanan and that's about it.

google gives me this and all these places are not in TN.

http://www.walkthroughindia.com/festiva ... -of-lanka/
http://www.india.com/top-n/6-ravana-tem ... fe-609985/

Ravana Mandir Bisrakh, Uttar Pradesh
Dashanan Ravana Temple, Kanpur
Jodhpur Ravan Mandir, Rajasthan
Ravangram Ravana Temple, Madhya Pradesh
Kakinada Ravana Temple, Andhra Pradesh

[Atmavik]

follow on to Cyril Almedia's piece.

Pakistani vulnerability and Indian strategy

By Mosharraf Zaidi
October 11, 2016
Print : Opinion



What makes a country vulnerable? There is of course the easy and correct answer: its people. A country with people that feel deprived, that suffer the indignity of poverty, that lack the imagination that comes from good schooling, and meaningful self-confidence – this is what makes a country vulnerable.

The problem with this definition is that it applies in varying degrees to every country on the planet. Watching Americans gravitate toward Donald Trump, a ridiculous, late night infomercial of a man, is an ongoing lesson in how even the wealthiest and most powerful country on the planet is vulnerable – when its people suffer, either real, or perceived hardship.

In the rise of Trump, there is also a different kind of vulnerability that is manifesting itself. Among some of the more sober voices in the US, there has been a growing darkness and gravity of tone about the role of Russia in the US election. This fear or vulnerability is not a generic policy fear about what might happen if Trump becomes president. It is a very specific worry. And it is not the work of loony leftists or radical right wingers. It is the assessment of the US Office of the Director of National Intelligence and the US Department of Homeland Security, who declared in a joint statement on October 7, that the hacking of a number of e-mails and lists is “consistent with the methods and motivations of Russian-directed efforts. These thefts and disclosures are intended to interfere with the US election process”.

Patriotic, serious Americans are worried about what it means for a foreign power to be able to insert itself into its domestic politics with as much ease as Vladimir Putin has(they could not care less) inserted himself smack into the middle of a US presidential election. Russia has had thousands of nuclear warheads for decades, but rarely has it caused as much front-page consternation in the US as it has during this election cycle. The reason could not be simpler. In the information age, real power isn’t necessarily what lies latent in the loins of a country’s weapons. Real power also lies in the ability to shape the others’ imagination. Russia has inserted itself into the US election conversation. Whether it is actually capable of manipulating anything meaningful is moot. By getting people to talk about it, it has already won an important victory. It has demonstrated its ability to shape the imagination of a substantial number of important Americans at this critical juncture.

And this brings us to Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s ‘surgical strikes’, India’s ‘strategic restraint’, and the new normal in Pakistan-India relations.

Instead of trying to parse the Uri attack, and its various fallouts – diplomatically at the UN General Assembly, and kinetically, allegedly on and beyond the Line of Control, let us start from closer to home.

Last week, Dawn published an exclusive report on the tense and complicated conversation between the elected leadership and our top soldiers. The report was rejected by the PM Office as being unrepresentative of the meeting. Yet large swathes of people both at home and abroad believe that it is true. The reason is not too complicated.

Pakistan has a long history of civil military disequilibrium. Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif has a long history of trying to achieve equilibrium. There is a change of guard imminent in Rawalpindi and there has been a remarkable flurry of political activity here at home that seems extraordinary given the otherwise limited public appetite for street agitation. Put all this together and we have the makings of a complicated and difficult conversation between civilian leaders and the military top brass. Add to this the India factor – a country with whom PM Sharif has quite rightly, badly wanted to improve relations, and a country that the military, quite rightly, does not trust – and the report rings even truer.

But let us forget one report, by one journalist, in one newspaper. Let us instead, step back and examine the larger vista. Standing where we are today – discussing Pakistan’s civil military disequilibrium, and the role of non-state actors like the HQN, LeT and JeM in weakening Pakistan’s standing in the world, let us ask three questions of ourselves, here in Pakistan.

One, does it matter whether India actually conducted the so-called surgical strikes over the LoC and into Pakistani territory?(the story is slowly changeing)

Two, does it matter how many foreign trips Pakistani influentials make to talk about Kashmir, when the hosts that afford them their time are busy counting the cash from current and future deals to sell goods and services to India’s burgeoning, consumption-happy, pro-Hindutva middle class?

Three, if we take India’s ill-intentions for Pakistan as a given, does India benefit more from a course-correction in Pakistan, or more from Pakistan continuing to do the same things over, and over, and over again?

The answers to these questions will not leave you feeling very good. If you came looking for optimism, I am afraid the next little bit is not for you.

First, we must accept now that that Pakistan is an exceptionally vulnerable country because our national conversation can be managed with great dexterity by decisions made not here in Islamabad, or Rawalpindi, but in New Delhi. This is what is at the heart of India’s surgical strikes mantra. It doesn’t matter even a little bit, whether the said strikes were actually conducted or not. India has used the claim of those strikes to establish and sustain a narrative about itself, about Pakistan, and about the place of each in global affairs.

This narrative describes India as the patient and responsible power, Pakistan as the provocateur, and the international community needing to thank India, and chide Pakistan. This play will receive little genuine and sincere credibility in some places, but it is also already an established truth in others. Can every BPS 20 civil servant in the Foreign Office tell the difference? Can any? Does PM Sharif know why BPS 20 at the FO is a critical stage in a diplomatic career? Don’t seek answers to those questions. You will be left feeling worse.

Second, morality may well be on Pakistan’s side, and God on the side of the Kashmiris, but both Pakistan and Kashmir have been left high and dry by a Pakistani policy elite, whose incompetence and laziness is both disgusting and predictable. MNAs and senators have travelled long distances to be sat in front of audiences already most amendable to Pakistan’s message on Kashmir. Some ambassadors have been stupid enough to publicly promote images of themselves and visiting Kashmir emissaries discussing Kashmir with the Pakistani disaspora. It would be funny if this were another country, and what was at stake was not the lives of innocent Kashmiris.

The country is Pakistan, and real lives are at stake in Kashmir. But no one other than Pakistan cares. A more capable, and self-respecting country would be more successful in advocating this cause. But capable and self-respecting countries do not have leadership narratives in both the civilian and military spaces that are focused exclusively on individuals, their tenures, and their family members. Alas, two down.

Finally, we must all celebrate the presence of doves on both sides of the border, none so courageous and adorable as Karan Johar or Om Puri – but when the most serious advocates of rational engagement between two nuclear powers are film actors and directors, then Houston: you have a problem. The brutal truth is that the lunatics have taken over the asylum in India, and a non-aligned, Gandhian state is now captive to two strains of modern Indian identity that realists must call out for what they are.

The first is hardcore Hindu supremacism, the second, an emboldened and more brazen strategic swagger. In short, this is not just Ram Madhav’s India, or K Subrahmanyam’s India. It is a much more sophisticated hybrid. It fancies itself as being able to beat Pakistan seven ways from Sunday. One of the most important ways it will seek to beat Pakistan is by letting Pakistan continue being Pakistan(Paki being Paki), or as I framed it last week, by helping Pakistan keep on doing what it has been doing, over and over and over again.

Look carefully at the Pakistani landscape and the conclusion is inescapable: we seem ecstatic at the opportunity to keep on keeping on. With friends like ourselves, who needs India?

[Atmavik]

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/opinion/ ... nally.html

Consider Pak’s redlines rationally

This article does not belong here but for the last para. i think we have been suckered into believing this crap.

"However, Pakistan could become a more irrational player if the mullahs seize military power. Hence, we are better off with it under the jackboots of the generals, and even better off with a full democracy. If mullahs seize control, we must contemplate a full Pakistani first strike at a lower threshold and calibrate our responses accordingly. Incidentally, this has been gamed many times and we have always found that the escalatory ladder has many steps to climb before the nuclear threshold. And the nuclear threshold is an impossible or near impossible line to cross for even an irrational actor, as Pakistan currently postures itself to be. Generals are very rational people and generally abhor huge battlefield costs."


The highlighted part is tailor made for the 3.5 friends

[Primus]

There is a tendency in Indians, I have observed, trying to do equal-equal for things. I am unable to put it in words exactly but I will give it a try.

This is a malady particularly afflicting Indians living abroad. They've been fed with so much sikular or Abrahamic crap over the years that they've automatically become dhimmified. Then their children in many instances have married into non-Dharmic families and it then has become very much politically incorrect to talk about religion at all.

This is OT for this thread, but a strange thing I've noted is how ALL Indians (muslims excepted) now lay a claim to Hindu rituals, even if they are not Hindus themselves. It's like how Diwali has become the de-facto Hindu festival.

Having been to over a dozen inter-faith weddings within my own extended family, I am quite accustomed to compromises. However, this one was rather strange.

My daughter's close friend is Jewish. She was getting married to an Indian whose father was originally Hindu but mother is anglo (Catholic). The mother's side is very religious (sister is a nun). At the wedding, boy's mother insisted on doing an elaborate 'haldi' ceremony and a sangeet etc (even though in her native Tamilnadu they do not). The main vows were exchanged under a Jewish Chuppah and the entire ceremony was without any religious prayers/tokens. However, the boy's side couldn't help themselves and during two speeches that evening invoked JC asking for his blessings. The girl's side was livid as the agreement was that there would be NO religious comments at all.

It seems to me that even amongst Anglo Indians living in the US, there is a certain need to identify themselves with their Hindu heritage even if they openly criticize India and Hinduism. Many families I know have given their kids Indian names (Asha, Pravin, Rahul) even though the kids are brought up Catholic. There is a strong need for roots despite belonging to the majority religion in their adopted country.

[GShankar]

Thanks for the detailed responses, I was mainly taken aback by the "secular festival" term. Ravan being Keralite is straight from Burkha Bibi's book. My Tamil friend Sriram was fuming when BB claimed that Tamils support Ravana.

they have some temples for him in TN but that does not mean that he was a tamil or even from kerala.

secular may not be the correct word but universal (in a limited sense) may be a better term, given the social milieu of kerala as it exist(s)(ed)??

I don't know of temples but major dravidian and non-dravidian-but-tamil-based political parties speak about this - implying Ravan was a Tamil (Dravidian) and killed by Ram (Aryan). All Divide and Rule only.

However there are quite a few speeches of Swamy39 saying Ravan's village, Bisrakh is in Noida, Assam and that Ravan is a brahmin.

There is a tendency in Indians, I have observed, trying to do equal-equal for things. I am unable to put it in words exactly but I will give it a try.

My daughter's close friend is Jewish. She was getting married to an Indian whose father was originally Hindu but mother is anglo (Catholic). The mother's side is very religious (sister is a nun). At the wedding, boy's mother insisted on doing an elaborate 'haldi' ceremony and a sangeet etc (even though in her native Tamilnadu they do not). The main vows were exchanged under a Jewish Chuppah and the entire ceremony was without any religious prayers/tokens. However, the boy's side couldn't help themselves and during two speeches that evening invoked JC asking for his blessings. The girl's side was livid as the agreement was that there would be NO religious comments at all.

w.r.t the bolded part - that custom of manjal kulipu (haldi bath) is there and practiced in many Tamil weddings including mine.

[Primus]

^^

GS, I was referring to the ceremony of not just haldi 'ubtan' and the 'baan' (different from the haldi bath) but also the mehndi that goes with it, which AFAIK is not practiced by the Catholics in Tamilnadu, and neither is the 'Sangeet' which is purely a Punjabi/North Indian phenomenon. I did spend six years in Tamilnadu during my college days. It was also interesting that the boy's mother insisted on the bride wearing a sari during these ceremonies while her sister came attired as a nun!

[panduranghari]

One of the main reason for the Indians to not speak out is because in India via the DDM, its become uncool to speak up for our own culture. One automatically becomes a 'sanghi idiot who cannot get along','Hindu male chauvinist','not cosmopolitan enough','unreasonable parochial zealot', etc.

Tables can be turned and should be turned. But it needs self confidence and knowledge.

[GShankar]

Primus, Agreed about the mehndi part. We don't do that even in most hindu ceremonies. Song part being influenced by punjabi/north india, not sure but possible.

While growing up, I recall there used to be carnatic music or speakers in weddings. I have been to weddings that had Bala murali krishna and pulavar keeran. Then it all became orchestra.

[Rudradev]

There is what Rajiv Malhotra calls a "pizza effect" taking place amongst uprooted cosmopolitan Indians of all regions/communities, both in India and abroad.

Pizza Effect: When RM was a corporate CEO, he went on a business trip to Italy. Was having a business lunch with some top execs there, and pizza was served. One Italian CEO remarked to RM that pizza used to be a "peasant food" in Italy, like our humble bhakri-chutney of Maharashtra... and no "respectable" Italian of previous generations would ever serve it to cultured guests. But once pizza became popular in the US, and then was carried to many countries including Italy as a fashionable fast-food, the Italians' own perception of it changed and it became "respectable".

Similarly, what we see now is that the primary Indian immigrant communities in the West are Punjabis and Gujaratis. When you see "India" depicted in the Western pop-culture imagination, it is generally Punjabi culture (bhangra, "Monsoon Wedding" etc.) with elements of Gujarati culture (in terms of colors, aesthetics, dress styles etc.) that are represented. Now this Western idea of an aesthetic composite that the West defines as "culturally Indian" has become universalized to all "cosmopolitan" Indians... big city, upper-middle class+ folks in India, and educated Indians in the West.

These people have "progressed" through Western education (and in some cases, like Primus' acquaintances, religious conversion) which meant scorning and abandoning their own regional traditional practices as retrogressive and backward. Now they are rootless, so as a reaction to the essential emptiness of their situation, they adopt the Western notion of "Indian Culture" as an identity symbol.

This is how Punjabi and Gujarati traditions have become adopted by Christian Tamils who want to project some form of "Indian" identity at their wedding. They are behaving as per the expectations the West has of how Indians should behave per a Western notion of Indian culture.

[Lilo]

^
Exactly !
These days one sees "sangeet" (which is a punjabi ceremony) in many upmarket southindian weddings to generalize especially when it involves itvity or nri's or celebrities .

[Primus]

There is what Rajiv Malhotra calls a "pizza effect" taking place amongst uprooted cosmopolitan Indians of all regions/communities, both in India and abroad.
..................
These people have "progressed" through Western education (and in some cases, like Primus' acquaintances, religious conversion) which meant scorning and abandoning their own regional traditional practices as retrogressive and backward. Now they are rootless, so as a reaction to the essential emptiness of their situation, they adopt the Western notion of "Indian Culture" as an identity symbol.

This is how Punjabi and Gujarati traditions have become adopted by Christian Tamils who want to project some form of "Indian" identity at their wedding. They are behaving as per the expectations the West has of how Indians should behave per a Western notion of Indian culture.

True. Although I would hazard to say that the highest number of Indians in the US come from the South, or perhaps there is really no preponderance of Punjabis, unlike say in the UK or Canada. However, you are correct, the Western perception of 'Indian-ness' is Bhangra, Mehndi, big wedding processions, dancing with abandon in colorful costumes to even more colorful music. Perpetuated by Hollywood's vision of India this has become well established in our own psyche, when we look at the mirror we see the person we think they want us to be.

It's a bit like the blacks in the US, they adopted the white man's language, religion and culture, yet find themselves on the outside. Too far away- both physically and historically - from their roots, they are unable to anchor themselves in any meaningful way.

The Indian Catholics, find themselves in a somewhat similar situation. They are still Brown, no matter how much they imitate the white folk. The big difference is that they can call upon their ancient traditions and find a place to fit themselves in. They may not be Dharmic in action and attitude but they can certainly run with the hares when an identity crisis looms before them.

[shiv]

Posting the entire article about self-loathing Indians here. Tavleen Singh
http://indianexpress.com/article/opinio ... s-3085054/

indianexpress.com
Fifth column: Doubting Thomases
Written by Tavleen Singh | Updated: October 16, 2016 12:24 am

As a consequence of India’s intellectual arena having been occupied since Nehruvian socialist times by a dictatorship of very illiberal leftists and liberals, English-speaking Indians have a self-loathing that is increasingly repugnant. This past week was a good one to see these self-loathing Indians in full fettle. This particular genre of Indian despises Narendra Modi, so they have been more than a little unnerved by the ‘surgical strikes’ in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, that the Indian Army conducted in retaliation for the murder of 19 soldiers. So a loud chorus has risen from ‘liberal quarters’ demanding ‘proof’ without anyone noticing that if we should be asking for proof, it ought to be from Pakistan’s military men. Proof that they have stopped using suicidal jihadists in their cowardly, undeclared war.

The Indian Army has more credibility than the Pakistani Army in the eyes of most Indians, but not this lot. So the voices of what the Defence Minister called ‘doubting Thomases’ have been heard across the land. Nothing happened at all, they say, and whatever happened has happened before so it’s wrong for the Prime Minister to try and take credit. In any case, the only solution is dialogue not a violent response on the border. None of them noticed that their voices sounded worryingly similar to the voices of military men from across the border. This is not surprising since many of these doubters have long been involved in a process that has come to be known on the subcontinent as ‘track two diplomacy.’

Having been on more than one of these cross-border junkets, let me describe what happens. Us liberals go to Lahore or Islamabad or wherever and our Pakistani hosts pay for us to stay in nice hotels and then introduce us to charming liberals and leftists whose hospitality so overwhelms us that we rarely speak of difficult things. We never meet the military men who control the Indian jihad. The civilian leaders we meet are usually full of friendship and love. I met Nawaz Sharif on one of these junkets and Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, but the only time I have met serving military officers is when I have gone to report on some election or coup. It is from meeting them many times that I have understood that, in their limited worldview, India will always be a hated enemy.

It is from conversations with these military men that I have learned that they believe that India will eventually break up and enable Pakistan to expand its territory and population by luring Indian Muslims to their side. So the real purpose of the jihadists, who the Pakistani army sends us, is to create communal tension by their acts of violence. Spokesmen for the Pakistani government like to say that once the ‘core issue’ of Kashmir is resolved, all tensions with India will end. This is rubbish and they know it. The only people who seem not to know it are the people I described in the first paragraph of this column.

This caboodle includes journalists, academics, bureaucrats, politicians, historians and even judges. They are bound together by the skein of their ‘secularism’ and their hatred of Modi. So they virtually constitute a fifth column of the Congress party without being its official spokesmen. When there is a Congress government in power, these worthies nearly always find (even in retirement) jobs that enable them to continue living in fine bungalows in Lutyens Delhi. Nothing inspires loyalty more than patronage of this kind, and because they hide behind the shield of secularism, they are able easily to disguise their self-loathing.

It is this self-loathing that Pakistan has manipulated very well in the many, many rounds of futile dialogue that began soon after the Islamic Republic was born. Have you noticed that most commentators in the Indian media refer to a ‘deep state’ within Pakistan as if it were constituted by people outside the government? Have you noticed how this disguises the harsh truth that the Pakistani military is the Pakistani government? Have you noticed how we keep talking on our side of the border about the need to strengthen Pakistan’s elected leaders, without ever acknowledging that, in Punjab, jihadist leaders like Hafiz Saeed would not exist without the support of Nawaz Sharif and his brother who is Punjab’s chief minister?

If we want peace with the Islamic Republic next door, India will need to continue proving that she is stronger militarily, economically and in every other way. Only this will persuade Pakistan’s military men to abandon their dream of a greater Pakistan that will, they hope, be powerful enough to match India in every way. For the moment it is just a sad, shabby little country full of hatred and violence. It is seen this way even by countries that once were its friends, but India’s ‘liberals’ remain believers!

[shiv]

Another cross post:

It is important to remember that
1. Pakistani rulers (army/RAPE) make a very clear distinction between Urdu (domestic) and English (foreign/USA)
2. Different information is fed to people speaking these languages and they are dealt with differently
3. Although we can follow Urdu most of us do not read Urdu and miss out on printed information. Indians are exposed mainly to the English fraction of Pakistan and hence English speaking Indians get the same information as Americans. This makes it easy for Indians to be fooled like the Americans. But since Indians by and large worship America we do not want to believe that America has been suckered. We make excuses like "America is a superpower and can do anything including control/destroy Pakistan by snapping its fingers"
4. Pakistanis have taken great pains to copy America in many ways and any phraseology that sounds western is totally fake and meant to impress western money donors. Examples are:

• "Senators" for fat oily hennaed feudal bearded men in Islamabad like the bugger who was line maraaoing Qandeel Baloch
  "Exit control list" - a totally fake and useless category when a man can simply be killed like Daniel Pearl to control his exit. Amazing that indians actually believe that such things work in Pakistan
  "Freeze bank account" - another complete fake which makes Americans very happy. Jamaat-ud-Dawa accounts are frozen, but JuD probably has only Rs 2 in its account. everything is done in cash of hawala

[Kannan]

America really hasn't been suckered, they've just (reluctantly) learned that the consequences of a power vacuum are incredible no matter who inflicts it, and it is in their pragmatic interests to prop up the Pakistani elite and wait it out for internal reformation over some Bollywood ending with a bunch of powers stomping out terrorism.

[LokeshC]

prop up the Pakistani elite and wait it out for internal reformation over some Bollywood ending with a bunch of powers stomping out terrorism

Ergo the term "getting suckered". The above qouted will never happen.

[Kannan]

prop up the Pakistani elite and wait it out for internal reformation over some Bollywood ending with a bunch of powers stomping out terrorism

Ergo the term "getting suckered". The above qouted will never happen.

I never said they lost sleep over whether it ever happened, just that it is much less costly than a nuclear state collapsing. I remember when I first joined this board there was a huge throng of people that thought a nuclear first strike against the Pakis was acceptable if we only lost one or two cities in retaliation.

[SwamyG]

Thanks for the detailed responses, I was mainly taken aback by the "secular festival" term. Ravan being Keralite is straight from Burkha Bibi's book. My Tamil friend Sriram was fuming when BB claimed that Tamils support Ravana.

Tamilians do not support per se; but do consider his other attributes like Shiva bhakt, great veena player, knowledgeable itiyadi. Just like how tamilians would see the other aspects of Karna.

I do not know if the concept of 'pattimandrams' - a form of debate that is so well liked by people; and almost all regional channels will have these on important festivals.

It is almost with a vehemence to see things in black and white, leaving room for grays and doubts.

[SwamyG]

We Hindus must have a gene for this which makes us prime prospects for extinction within the next 1000 years.

Even after the Islamic and Christian colonisation, Hindus are still kicking alive no? In fact America has been conquered with Yoga and Meditation.

[shiv]

America really hasn't been suckered, they've just (reluctantly) learned that the consequences of a power vacuum are incredible no matter who inflicts it, and it is in their pragmatic interests to prop up the Pakistani elite and wait it out for internal reformation over some Bollywood ending with a bunch of powers stomping out terrorism.

Good one. But the truth is hey have been suckered through and through. I have heard people making excuses for America for too many years decades. Not sure why I find that the very same people (not you personally) who run down India at the slightest excuse go to great pains to preserve Amrica's echandee and take pains to describe how an Indian making a mistake is a naive fool but an American leader making the same mistake shows superpower statesmanship of such a high degree that I would not understand it.