Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 12 Oct 2016 02:00

Having no news on Arihant is a good news. We know what was the last status and what follows next. Why to provide status on a project, which have a biggest surprise value.

salaam · Post by **salaam** » 12 Oct 2016 02:07

Rakesh wrote:The navies of the world do not talk about their submarines. A saying from a retired Indian Navy Admiral. Obviously that fell on deaf ears to the reporter of the Australian.

I don't mind if that's the case.

But that raises a question as to why information was readily leaked/available during UPA terms? Was it really available OR was sdre psy-ops OR a combination of both?

RKumar wrote:Having no news on Arihant is a good news. We know what was the last status and what follows next. Why to provide status on a project, which have a biggest surprise value.

Sir, I was more curious about the whole series, not just Arihant. I get the point though and will keep quiet

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 12 Oct 2016 02:36

I though Arindaman was supposed to be launched this year? No news may be good news but surely some tidbit can be released.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 12 Oct 2016 02:47

Bheeshma wrote:I though Arindaman was supposed to be launched this year? No news may be good news but surely some tidbit can be released.

It is ARIDHAMAN.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Oct 2016 04:32

What about its torpedoes?They were supposed to acquire the Italian ones,now in limbo!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Oct 2016 06:40

Put the babus - who are keeping it in limbo - in the torpedo tubes, flood the tubes and then fire them! Various torpedoes will arrive. Even ones we do not need

Bheeshma wrote:I though Arindaman was supposed to be launched this year? No news may be good news but surely some tidbit can be released.

As per Admiral R K Dhowan, trials for the Arihant are going well. That was in 2015.

Nuclear submarine INS Arihant trials going 'very well', says Admiral RK Dhowan
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 108838.cms

Then in 2016, Admiral Dhowan said that she will not be taking part in the International Fleet Review held in Feb 2016. AFAIK, that was the last official word on the program. Nothing new since.

INS Arihant not to feature at fleet review: Navy chief
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 865593.cms

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 12 Oct 2016 06:48

Why do we have iron curtain for our deterrence, keeping nuke subs development secret, discounting the true range of our missiles ? These things should be the first thing you need to advertise to increase your deterrence.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Oct 2016 07:02

Karthik S wrote:Why do we have iron curtain for our deterrence, keeping nuke subs development secret, discounting the true range of our missiles ? These things should be the first thing you need to advertise to increase your deterrence.

A submarine by its very nature is inherently secretive. Ballistic missile submarines - all the more - considering the scope of its mission. That is not about to change. A deterrence is only effective when your enemy knows little about your capability. If you advertise Arihant's capability, the enemy will counter that with its own weapons thus reducing her capability to conduct a successful strike. Arihant (and her sister ships) have only one role - deliver a nuclear payload with success. No ambiguity is allowed here, so the less said the better. You will not hear much about these boats (apart from commissioning dates and even that will not necessarily be true!) and rightfully so.

salaam wrote:But that raises a question as to why information was readily leaked/available during UPA terms? Was it really available OR was sdre psy-ops OR a combination of both?

Nothing was leaked. This is a program that been kept fairly well under wraps. But launching a boat of this type is a huge technological achievement for India and that needs to be celebrated (or as you say, SDRE psy-ops). But even the launch ceremony was quite secretive in nature. No photos were allowed to be taken and the launch itself was inside the Ship Building Centre in Visakhapatnam, not out in the open.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Oct 2016 07:22

And the plot thickens...check this out TOI article from Feb 2016.

India’s first nuclear submarine INS Arihant ready for operations, passes deep sea tests
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

The Arihant incidentally did not take part in the IFR even though it was ready due to security concerns. The presence of 24 foreign warships, equipped with sensors and equipment that could pick up vital electronic intelligence being the main deterrent.

The submarine is to be equipped with K 15 (or BO-5) short range missiles with a range of over 700 km and the K 4 ballistic missile with a range of 3,500 km. "It has passed all tests and in many things has surpassed our expectations."

Technically the submarine can now be commissioned at any time," a senior official said. Sources told ET that the commissioning date could be as early as next month if the Modi government desires.

The last time I checked, we are in October. For all we know the boat has already been commissioned. Or maybe it has not.
Who Knows?

salaam · Post by **salaam** » 12 Oct 2016 07:59

Rakesh wrote:Nothing was leaked. This is a program that been kept fairly well under wraps. But launching a boat of this type is a huge technological achievement for India and that needs to be celebrated (or as you say, SDRE psy-ops). But even the launch ceremony was quite secretive in nature. No photos were allowed to be taken and the launch itself was inside the Ship Building Centre in Visakhapatnam, not out in the open.

Well, if we can have a whole TFTA psy-ops thread, can't I just have a small SDRE psy-ops self depreciating laughter post.

Rakesh wrote:The last time I checked, we are in October. For all we know the boat has already been commissioned. Or maybe it has not.
Who Knows?

Lol, that's the spirit. Who knows how many Arihant brothers and sisters are enjoying the fish-devoid waters of South Taiwan Sea.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Oct 2016 10:32

back in old days the soviets used to quietly induct new types of fighters, ships, subs and missiles and a army of western imagery analysts used to pore over satellite photos to id much feared stuff like the SS18 and Mig25 and alfa class subs. no public induction was done, at most they appeared by surprise in the red square v-day parade.

naruto · Post by **naruto** » 17 Oct 2016 18:25

NewsX reports that INS Arihant has been commissioned into Navy sometime in August.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 17 Oct 2016 18:27

‏@livefist

BIG. India's 1st nuclear powered ballistic missile submarine INS Arihant quietly commissioned into service, reports @AshishSinghNews.

INS Arihant, India's 1st SSBN, reportedly commissioned into service in August this year. (That nobody knew so far bodes well.)

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 17 Oct 2016 18:32

Many here guessed it would have been commissioned.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 17 Oct 2016 19:08

Balle Balle...Good to get a confirmation finally...

Just a day after BRICS. Coincidence??

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Oct 2016 19:42

Thanks Naruto. Just proved my point.

JayS: Good one. Probably to remind China

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Oct 2016 20:28

Check out @livefist's Tweet: https://twitter.com/livefist/status/787 ... 18560?s=09

salaam · Post by **salaam** » 17 Oct 2016 20:51

Excellent...

Shortly we will hear that Aridhaman was launched sometime back and is doing sea trials in South Taiwan Sea

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Oct 2016 21:14

Now that INS Arihant is commissioned please go easy on its whereabouts etc. etc.

I have a good mind to lock the thread for archival purposes.
But wont do so yet.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Oct 2016 21:21

+1 Ramana

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 17 Oct 2016 22:05

Awesome...Hopefully All 4 Arihant class are quietly commissioned by 2020. Next we need to see some grainy pics from behind bushes (I mean sea weeds) of K-4 being fired. I hope the Krivak class frigate deal involves another Akula and Tu-22M3. IN needs a dozen to have strike capability in south west pacific.

kit · Post by **kit** » 17 Oct 2016 22:38

Read somewhere ..one Arihant class sub will be commissioned into service every year from 2016 onwards

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 17 Oct 2016 22:56

Cheers to all. Cannot imagine how many years we played or heard those Chinese/Desi whispers about this amazing top secret new project that was going to shake the world when revealed! I spent many a year fantasizing about 100s of missile silos carrying Suryas! Never once realize how much more potent just this one class will be! To everyone involved, our humble thanks for making this nation proud and strong. Jai Hind!

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 17 Oct 2016 23:31

This thread need not be locked . I doubt anyone here can remotely be able to pinpoint its whereabouts

Ankar · Post by **Ankar** » 18 Oct 2016 00:25

kit wrote:Read somewhere ..one Arihant class sub will be commissioned into service every year from 2016 onwards

That will we Scorpene ...me thinks

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Oct 2016 01:32

BTW, BEL Annual Report (whistles).

Integrated Sonar Suite for S3/S4 Platform consists
of Passive Sonar, Active Sonar, Intercept Sonar, Obstacle
Avoidance Sonar, Own noise measurement system
and Underwater Communication System. The system
is mounted on submarine for underwater surveillance
purpose.

http://www.bel-india.com/Documentviews. ... 015-16.pdf

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 18 Oct 2016 01:36

Nice..so the second and third Arihants are already getting ready. Who knows by 2020 we may actually have half a dozen nuke subs prowling about.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 18 Oct 2016 01:44

Bheeshma wrote:Nice..so the second and third Arihants are already getting ready. Who knows by 2020 we may actually have half a dozen nuke subs prowling about.

I think the ideal number is 4. 1 is always on doc for supplies and 3 others are out sailing. sometimes 1 may be taken out for a longer time. In that case only 2 will be out to maintain the deterrence.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 18 Oct 2016 01:47

I think Ideal if 6 SSBN's since will only have 8-12 tubes per sub. 2 on Patrol (one in Bay of Bengal-Bastion style and other deep in South Indian Ocean) and 2 ready to sail out and moments notice. Along with that 12+ SSN/SSGN's to complement them.

bharats · Post by **bharats** » 18 Oct 2016 08:27

India inducts INS Arihant into service, quietly completes its nuclear triad
by Zeenews.com October 18,2016

New Delhi: Indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant was commissioned into service in August, a report said on Tuesday.
By inducting the 6,000-tonne submarine into service, India has quietly completed its nuclear triad, reported The Hindu on Tuesday. The daily quoted defense sources as saying that INS Arihant was formally commissioned by Navy Chief Admiral Sunil Lanba in August. Sources added that in a bid to maintain secrecy, it is not being referred to as INS Arihant. After being inducted, the submarine completes India's nuclear triad, giving it the capability to respond to nuclear strikes from sea, land and air-based systems.

INS Arihant gives second-strike capability to India, which has a clearly declared policy of "no first-use" of nuclear weapons. INS Arihant is India's first indigenous nuclear submarine, and the lead ship of Arihant class of nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines launched in 2009. It was initially expected to go for sea trials by 2012, though this happened only in December 2014. The vessel's miniaturized nuclear reactor, built with Russian help, went critical in 2013.

The project was undertaken by the Advanced Technology Vessel programme under the supervision of the Prime Minister's Office and involved agencies and establishments such as the Defence Research and Development Organisation, the Department of Atomic Energy and the Submarine Design Group of the Directorate of Naval Design, besides private companies such as Larsen & Toubro. The submarine's design is based on the Russian Akula-1 class submarines and its 83 MW pressurised water reactor has been built with significant Russian assistance.

While its 100-member crew has been trained by Russian specialists, Indian scientists at the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre have received significant expertise in reducing the reactor size to help it fit into the 10-metre diameter hull of the submarine. Nuclear submarines have the capability to stay out at sea longer, and don't need to surface for a long duration. Conventional diesel-electric submarines have to come up to the surface at regular intervals for charging their batteries.

Website: http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/ind ... 41041.html

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 18 Oct 2016 10:06

^^And I see that the Arihant has been magically transformed into a Borei class sub by Zee news.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 18 Oct 2016 10:59

Be thankful they showed a submarine.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 18 Oct 2016 11:50

The Zee news article is pretty certain that the Arihant on board reactor was actually *built* with Russian assistance. But article(s) in Frontline are emphatic that the reactor is fully Indian- a similar one is on land- but that it was fitted into the submarine with Russian help. The Russians consulted on the whole submarine where necessary., but the reactor itself is Indian.

Why these confusing or even conflicting reports?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Oct 2016 11:56

The Arihant is to be succeeded by sister boats which will have at least twice the capacity of missile silos.There appear to be 3 more in the pipeline,with even larger future boats after that.It looks like 6+6 SSN/SSGNs and SSBNs.18-24 more diesel AIP boats will make a v.handy UW fleet to deal with both China and Pak.Remember that Pak is to get 8 Yuan class AIP subs in addition to its 4 Agostas.12 Paki subs in the Arabian Sea/IOR will be a major threat to us. Pak with China's help will also be planning its own SSBN or AIP boat with BMs. I would venture that after its production of new N-boats,China will lease one to Pak which could be equipped with LRCMs with N-warheads.

While the going is good,we need to lease at least another Akula so that we have 3 in service (3 N-boats required for one always at sea).The IN appears to want Yasens,which are even larger and more expensive.Recent reports indicate that the Russians are designing a new class.smaller than the Yasen,even cheaper ,but equally or more potent.Our planned 6 SSNs could benefit from this new design too so that we have bleedin' edge tech for our N-subs.

We really do not know the max range of the BMs aboard the sub,but what is required is for us to have a BM with a range of at least 5000-7500km with MIRVs to keep China at bay.For Pak there are several other options including land and air launched BMs.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Oct 2016 11:58

Over 200 Ru tech experts were at the sub's official launch and the then PM acknowldged gratefully Ru's assistance.The reactor was built by BAARC.Let's not speculate further for obvious reasons.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 18 Oct 2016 13:07

ShauryaT wrote:
Bheeshma wrote:I though Arindaman was supposed to be launched this year?
It is ARIDHAMAN.

Correct spelling is Aridaman (Ari - Enemy + Daman - Vanquish/Destroy)

Lot of the chatter on the news has been picked up from here. Guess the journalists monitor this thread.

Good investigation by Karan - INS Aridaman has more evolved systems than INS Arihant.

Just like the last two Leanders had Seaking and 324 mm TT unlike the first four.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 18 Oct 2016 13:14

Perception is the reason. If lies are told again and again it will get into some of the newspapers who dont actually go to the source and collect information, but just copy paste it form other sources. Frontline must have gone to the place where it's build and they got the correct answer. We must have had consultation with Russia and their assistance in certain areas will surely be there to cut down on time but it's the hard work of Indians that finally got it working and got commissioned.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 18 Oct 2016 13:15

Varoon Shekhar wrote:The Zee news article is pretty certain that the Arihant on board reactor was actually *built* with Russian assistance. But article(s) in Frontline are emphatic that the reactor is fully Indian- a similar one is on land- but that it was fitted into the submarine with Russian help. The Russians consulted on the whole submarine where necessary., but the reactor itself is Indian.

Why these confusing or even conflicting reports?

Reactor is fully Indian and was built more than 20 years ago. Reactor was built before the boat was started around 1999

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 18 Oct 2016 13:16

bharats wrote:India inducts INS Arihant into service, quietly completes its nuclear triad
by Zeenews.com October 18,2016

013.

The project was undertaken by the Advanced Technology Vessel programme under the supervision of the Prime Minister's Office and involved agencies and establishments such as the Defence Research and Development Organisation, the Department of Atomic Energy and the Submarine Design Group of the Directorate of Naval Design, besides private companies such as Larsen & Toubro. The submarine's design is based on the Russian Akula-1 class submarines and its 83 MW pressurised water reactor has been built with significant Russian assistance.

The keel of the boat is of Russian origin

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 18 Oct 2016 14:46

Now we have to proceed with SSN devlopment asap if we want to retain a large measure of control on IOR.