Indian Military Helicopters

[ashbhee]

Why do we need KA-226 when we have Dhruva and LUH?
Even if LUH and Dhruva is lacking in capabilities when compared to KA-226, can't we just improve upon the indigenous products?

[Cybaru]

I guess we need Ka-226T for some reason, even though it lost both the RFI's that India floated earlier. Given that we fly our helicopters excessively according to either Deejay or Akshay Kapoor, our frames tend to have high hours/low years. I presume we will go through the 200 odd Ka-226 in 10-15 years.

What would have been really nice is had we gone for a medium category to be built at home. I think we should sign up with Mil for the Mi-38 and use the Pratt and Whitney engines for our use and build/customize it heavily for our armed forces. Mil-38 seems to meet our requirements quite nicely especially with the beefed up engines.

"The Mil Mi-38 prototypes have already set five records in the E1h class. The second prototype aircraft set an altitude record by reaching 8,620 meters (28,280 feet) without a payload. The second and third records were for climbing speed; the Mi-38 reached a height of 3,000 meters (9,843 feet) in six minutes, then followed this to reach 6,000 meters (19,685 feet) in 10 minutes and 52 seconds. Two further records were altitude records: the first was set at 7,895 meters (25,902 feet) with a 1,000-kg (2,205-lb) payload, the second at 7,020 meters (23,031 feet) with a 2,000-kg (4,409-lb) payload.[5][6]"

It maybe too big for the Navy, but I am sure the IAF/IA could use about 300-400 of these units and this will complete our stable for most of our helicopters need. We should have joined this project as stake holders long time ago IMO.

We could design our own too, but that might be a long process with fruits showing up 10-12 years from now. I think if we do buy something like this we can save a few years of the design time especially around the transmission-engine-rotor integration and create new smaller version for the navy as well 3-4 years down the road.

[Viv S]

Lets put some fiction writing at rest. The Chinese got the prototype carrier flanker from Ukraine along with the carrier Varyag. They have paid top dollar for that.

Acquisition of a Su-33 prototype would have assisted in the J-15's development not substituted it.

And believe me. The Chinese Naval Flankers would face some serious serious issues and China will have a credible carrier force only some 25 years from now. The Chinese aircraft carrier and the flanker force (Varyag/Laioning/whatever and the Ding Dong XX / SU-33 whatever) is all a massive $10b R&D effort. It is NOT an operational carrier (like what a USN, RN, AeroNavale/IN RuN) kind of force would consider as one.

The Liaoning is a training ship intended to create institutional expertise/experience with carrier operations. The lessons will be passed on to the two sister ships (first of which will be launched early next year if all goes well).

'Some 25 years' is your opinion, and apparently based on generalizations ('ding-dong') about China. India received its first aircraft carrier in 1961 and it was war-ready by 1971. We had assistance from the Brits, the Chinese will have assistance from the Russians and access to reams of Osint.

[Paul]

I recall reading about a Medium lift Helo concept design being worked out in collaboration with an IIT, probably Delhi. Will be at least 10 years before we see one flying.

[Pratyush]

I recall reading about a Medium lift Helo concept design being worked out in collaboration with an IIT, probably Delhi. Will be at least 10 years before we see one flying.

In the absence of established staff requirements and funding it will never fly. At the moment we have neither.

[shiv]

I recall reading about a Medium lift Helo concept design being worked out in collaboration with an IIT, probably Delhi. Will be at least 10 years before we see one flying.

In the absence of established staff requirements and funding it will never fly. At the moment we have neither.

There is an ironic and unfunny joke here.

A private concern that makes money from sales may be tempted to pour in research money for products for new markets beyond existing customers. But when the fund provider, manufacturer and the user are all arms of government there is much scope for playing with funds to the extent that nothing actually gets developed or perfected. the best part is we the people are the source of the funds so unless we agitate as a group accountability will be zero

[deejay]

I recall reading about a Medium lift Helo concept design being worked out in collaboration with an IIT, probably Delhi. Will be at least 10 years before we see one flying.

In the absence of established staff requirements and funding it will never fly. At the moment we have neither.

No one stops the developer from approaching the users (IAF/IA/IN) for developing staff requirements. IA will be the most interested. Given the experience already gained in manufacturing of rotary wing craft (and I know this from HAL), the confidence of building rotary wing is high. HAL can and probably will in future make MLH and probably may even try for heavy.

The only reason they are not (and here it is my opinion) is because they want to get the LUH up and ready. The programme of LUH is running delayed and the requirement is fairly old. Add to that the final stages of LCH development and HAL is fairly occupied. So one step at a time and in future we will hear of a desi MLH.

[Philip]

KA-226s are going to be the workhorses for the utility cat. High alt.,Siachen supplies,etc. MI-17s are fine for general usage ,but a larger med. design which can also have naval variants/ASW/MR roles would be very welcome.MI-38 is a design that could be examined along with others.The huge naval ASW helo order,over 100 helos,is long pending.Here the European birds like NH-90,Eurocopter,are better placed.

[A Deshmukh]

HAL LUH is not ready for production.
it has just started flying. Still 5-10 years from large scale production. coming from HAL, i would be pessimistic on the timeline.
we need 100s of light Helicopters now - next 10 years.
ka226 - mfg in India seems reasonable solution.

[Indranil]

Wake me up when the contract for the KA-226 is signed. We will take stock of its preparedness with respect to LUH at that time.

[Khalsa]

The Ka-226 JV is a major brain re-alignment for the Russians.
As much as I love them and support them for supporting us over the decades.

The fact of the matter is, from the men of IAF who went ever in the 60s to the sailors of Vikky.
None has come back with level of Satisfaction that was submitted by the Jaguar and Mirage procurement teams.

The Russians just don't deliver on time, they have internal efficiency issues which they never call out and hide that behind smoke and mirrors.

The JV are way to stop getting entangled in that and this is something that will force them to build on time and quality.
Interesting times ahead.....

I don't care about the Ka226. What worries me is the FGFA blackhole looming ahead.

[Gyan]

I think that GSQRs are awaited from military for IMRH since 2009.

[Zynda]

This was posted on Keypubs Forum...original article in Spanish. Used a translator...

Minister Patiño announced the sale of Dhruv helicopters

Defense Minister Ricardo Patino announced the morning of Thursday 20 October, the sale of three helicopters Dhruv , of the seven that the Ecuadorian government bought the Indian company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in 2008. The four other aircraft affected staff between 2009 and January 2015. That was the reason why the government announced in October 2015 that the three ships would stop flying. Now the government has finally decided to sell these three devices. "We are in a process of selling helicopters, are not going to use. These helicopters will put them in the sales process" Patino said. The minister also said the Dhruv 'helicopters are used in many parts of the world "and thus put them for sale to any country that is interested. It did not disclose the price at which it will be marketed. On October 14, 2015, the then defense minister, Fernando Cordero, confirmed that the three helicopters operate no more. That day the contract with HAL also broke, which sold the aircraft to Ecuador for $ 45 million.

[Sid]

HAL LUH is not ready for production.
it has just started flying. Still 5-10 years from large scale production. coming from HAL, i would be pessimistic on the timeline.
we need 100s of light Helicopters now - next 10 years.
ka226 - mfg in India seems reasonable solution.

If we think KA 226 is ready for production then we are day dreaming. Setting up a production line for Mi 17 would have made sense.

But Ka226? They showcased Ka226T during the trials, but that model is no longer viable as it used french engines. Meaning now we will have to either use a subpar engine on work with French and Russians both make this deal work. It's just like purchasing more Talwar class just because they are no longer frnds with Ukrainians.

Ka 226 deal even if signed today will materialize in 5-7 years, well within the timeframe of LUH serial production.

[JayS]

Wake me up when the contract for the KA-226 is signed. We will take stock of its preparedness with respect to LUH at that time.

I am told the new HAL's Tumkuru plant is specifically made for Ka226 as Russians wanted a separated facility to guard their IP. And HAL is building that plant. In theory, yes that plant can be used for LUH as well, but going by the history, I think we should expect Ka226 to be a done deal.

Plus LUH is a good 5yr long from full fledged serial production.

[Kartik]

This was posted on Keypubs Forum...original article in Spanish. Used a translator...

Minister Patiño announced the sale of Dhruv helicopters

Defense Minister Ricardo Patino announced the morning of Thursday 20 October, the sale of three helicopters Dhruv , of the seven that the Ecuadorian government bought the Indian company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in 2008. The four other aircraft affected staff between 2009 and January 2015. That was the reason why the government announced in October 2015 that the three ships would stop flying. Now the government has finally decided to sell these three devices. "We are in a process of selling helicopters, are not going to use. These helicopters will put them in the sales process" Patino said. The minister also said the Dhruv 'helicopters are used in many parts of the world "and thus put them for sale to any country that is interested. It did not disclose the price at which it will be marketed. On October 14, 2015, the then defense minister, Fernando Cordero, confirmed that the three helicopters operate no more. That day the contract with HAL also broke, which sold the aircraft to Ecuador for $ 45 million.

I know that there were a couple of Dhruv crashes in Ecuador and they gave the Ecuadorians a bad taste for the Dhruv, but I hope that HAL didn't let them down with poor after-sales support for the rest of the fleet. This was the one real export success and this kind of a result will not go un-noticed.

[vivek_ahuja]

I know that there were a couple of Dhruv crashes in Ecuador and they gave the Ecuadorians a bad taste for the Dhruv, but I hope that HAL didn't let them down with poor after-sales support for the rest of the fleet. This was the one real export success and this kind of a result will not go un-noticed.

This export to Ecuador was a dismal affair and now its being put out of its misery.

That being said, I get the feeling that if this was Boeing or Sikorsky, Ecuador would have been far more muted before blaming the helicopter for the crashes. I suspect the whole TFTA culture extends worldwide. They could afford to blame the Desi maal because you know, desi maal is always substandard compared to TFTA maal, no?

I bet the after-sales support was also not helpful in smoothing ruffled feathers. Difference between private companies and government entities.

[shiv]

At least one Dhruv crash in Ecuador was pilot error. The pilot banked and hit the ground
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SSDPtEpw-E

Incidentally I have started keeping a tab on all air accidents that get reported on Twitter - based on the sites I follow.
A Twitter Search for @bennedose FlightSafety - will give all the accidents I have marked

[shiv]

That being said, I get the feeling that if this was Boeing or Sikorsky, Ecuador would have been far more muted before blaming the helicopter for the crashes. I suspect the whole TFTA culture extends worldwide. They could afford to blame the Desi maal because you know, desi maal is always substandard compared to TFTA maal, no? .

I bet HAL paid no bribes. Paying bribes via middlemen is normal. All weapon exporting countries do that if possible. Ecuador's military are not a bunch of Dharmic Yudisthiras

[JayS]

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indo ... 93325.html
by Ajit Kumar Dubey. How reliable is this guy??

In Goa, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Russian President Vladimir Putin signed the deal for buying 200 Kamov-226T helicopters, which would be critical for maintaining the Indian Army positions in the Siachen Glacier.

It was believed that the first major Make in India deal would help in ending the long wait of the two forces for light helicopters to replace their fleet of Cheetah and Chetak helicopters. But even now there are several points including price which can cause further delays and cost overrun.

PRICE TO BE DECIDED

"It is being stated that the deal would cost around US$ one billion but the fact is that the two sides are far from reaching any agreement on the price of the helicopters. In fact, the Russian side has not even talked about the price of the deal," senior Defence Ministry sources told Mail Today here.

Determination of the price for the deal would prove to be a difficult issue as India would get 60 choppers off the shelf from Russian helicopters while the remaining 140 will have to be built in India at a facility to be jointly developed by both state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and the Russian Helicopters.
"The cost of the choppers to be brought directly from Russia would be much less than that of the machines manufactured in India which would also include the charges for transfer of technology and cost of setting up a new facility," they said.

PRICE TO PLAY MAJOR ROLE

Price has been a critical issue in defence deals involving Russia as several deals such as the under-development Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and Multirole Transport Aircraft projects have been stuck because of the sudden and exorbitant cost hikes by Moscow.

The biggest example of India suffering due to price hike was the INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier project which was to cost US$ 900 million at the time of signing in 2004, but was delivered in 2014 after an additional cost of US$ 1.2 billion in 2014.

Ministry sources said the quick decision to get new choppers for the forces was the need of the hour for the forces but the Indian side will have to be careful while dealing with the Russians in terms of pricing. Sources revealed that there is also confusion about the business model of the project as the government wants the project to involve a big private sector player and the cost of the programme would go up further as the Made in India component in the helicopter is increased over the years.

It was believed that the production of the choppers would take place at HAL's facility in Karnataka but now the production unit for Kamovs may have to be set up at a new site.

[vivek_ahuja]

That being said, I get the feeling that if this was Boeing or Sikorsky, Ecuador would have been far more muted before blaming the helicopter for the crashes. I suspect the whole TFTA culture extends worldwide. They could afford to blame the Desi maal because you know, desi maal is always substandard compared to TFTA maal, no? .

I bet HAL paid no bribes. Paying bribes via middlemen is normal. All weapon exporting countries do that if possible. Ecuador's military are not a bunch of Dharmic Yudisthiras

Agreed. No bribes and none of the other shady stuff either. Which is to be admired, but ultimately goes to show the limitations of a government entity trying to compete against private players in the real world.

Honestly, this Dhruv fiasco was to be expected. And I wouldn't be surprised if similar experiences are encountered when we try to sell other defense products as well, whether through HAL or some other government entity.

-Vivek

[JayS]

And some very good news coming up folks:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 020021.cms

PANAJI: After the successful high altitude trials of the Light Combat helicopter (LCH) at Leh forward operating base in September, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is now working on integrating the weapons suite on the indigenous light combat helicopter.

HAL has started limited series production and intends to manufacture five LCH helicopters.

"LCH is ready, we are integrating its weapons, we tried rockets and it was good, we need to try missiles ATGM - anti-tank guided missile, (these) are the ones which we are integrating and we just have to demonstrate that," chairman HAL Suvarna Raju said.

HAL carried out hot and high-altitude trials of the third prototype of the indigenously developed attack chopper with the participation of pilots from the Indian Air Force and Army.

"We have launched a limited series production, with a confidence and hope that we get definite orders on this. We have also inquiries on this platform from other countries, and so we will start making five helicopters this year," Raju said.


The chairman went on to add that the union government had given basic sanction for 173 helicopters for the Indian Armed Forces. "It has to turn into a contract between the Services and HAL," Raju stated.


The LCH made its maiden flight in May 2010 and has been developed after the Indian Armed Forces felt a strong lack of an attack helicopter during the 1999 Kargil War. The LCH is a derivative of the HAL Dhruv helicopter, and has been primarily designed for high-altitude warfare.


Raju also said that the department of public enterprises had recently informed HAL to prepare for disinvestment of 10% of the shares.


"We are preparing. It is a continuous process. As and when certain clearances are given to us and the ministry decides we will go ahead. The government has bought back 25% of its shares that is about 6,000 crores, which we paid as of March 31, 2016," Raju said.

Awesome. So while Serial Production is started, so far no contract is given on paper. So while GOI is on buying spree worth $50B, it didn't even bother writing a contract for HAL so far for LCH. How HAL is suppose to scale up for production in this case?? Even after successful demo helis, what govt is waiting for??

[sudeepj]

Awesome news! Been waiting to hear that for a long time.

[Rakesh]

Awesome. So while Serial Production is started, so far no contract is given on paper. So while GOI is on buying spree worth $50B, it didn't even bother writing a contract for HAL so far for LCH. How HAL is suppose to scale up for production in this case?? Even after successful demo helos, what govt is waiting for??

Now you know why the Tejas is in the state it is When a product is flawed, verbally trash it till it goes into oblivion. Starve it from further funding. But when a product passes all tests and trials, keep delaying in writing a contract. We SDREs are like this onlee.

[Srutayus]

Now you know why the Tejas is in the state it is When a product is flawed, verbally trash it till it goes into oblivion. Starve it from further funding. But when a product passes all tests and trials, keep delaying in writing a contract. We SDREs are like this onlee.

Add Arjun to that...and Nag...and MCIWS...and...the list goes on…

[shiv]

And some very good news coming up folks:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 020021.cms

"We have launched a limited series production, with a confidence and hope that we get definite orders on this. We have also inquiries on this platform from other countries, and so we will start making five helicopters this year," Raju said.

eeeeeeeek!

I don't like the language.

[rohiths]

They will never get any orders beyond 20. There will be a make in India tender for Apache helicopters

[rohitvats]

On one hand, the Chairman says we're yet to try an ATGM and on another, he says the LCH is ready. These are two contradictory arguments. My guess is that orders will be placed once the system is ready.

[Pratyush]

Who designs an attack help without a defined weapons suite. What am I not seeing.

[Cybaru]

On one hand, the Chairman says we're yet to try an ATGM and on another, he says the LCH is ready. These are two contradictory arguments. My guess is that orders will be placed once the system is ready.

He clearly says demonstration is the only thing remaining. He didn't say design/development remaining. They have already been integrated on the Rudra. The electronics are same, only demonstration remaining. Extremely low risk design/development of a wonderful product!

"LCH is ready, we are integrating its weapons, we tried rockets and it was good, we need to try missiles ATGM - anti-tank guided missile, (these) are the ones which we are integrating and we just have to demonstrate that," chairman HAL Suvarna Raju said."

[Sid]

Indian Navy inducts in-house ships with radars but no SAMs, sonars but no torpedo and ships with hangers but no choppers. But they do induct those and gradually add everything to it.

LCH weapon suite is already operationalized on ALH Rudra. What's wrong in placing some firm orders, is HAL gonna run away with that money?

[JayS]

On one hand, the Chairman says we're yet to try an ATGM and on another, he says the LCH is ready. These are two contradictory arguments. My guess is that orders will be placed once the system is ready.

The weapons integration is not going to alter the basic craft design, and there will be mostly SW changes happening, with perhaps some minor HW changes which can be incorporated easily while finishing the assembly. If they give a contract HAL can start working on manufacturing of LCH. If GOI/IA waits until all the tests are done, it will take further more time to get to the stable production.

The orders are for HAL to start tendering process for subcontracts for suppliers and all. To start setting up production lines, processes, ordering raw materials, prepare jig/fixtures/toolings, run test production runs to set the manufacturing process parameters, supply chain management, suppliers would need time to set up facilities/processes on their part etc which typically would take 3yrs for initiation and about 2-3 more years for stabilizing and ramp up of the production.

Who is gonne be at a loss here finally with the delays?? It will be IA. For what its worth there is a clear intent for 173 orders so its will come but the later it comes the later the production will start.

As such helicopter flight-testing is slightly different that aircrafts, you know it well, I guess. The basic craft is fixed already, its the add-ons which are being put up, that should not stop orders. Otherwise HAL would not have started SP on its own. But it cannot do so on larger scale. since they have limited financial autonomy.

[JayS]

And some very good news coming up folks:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 020021.cms

eeeeeeeek!

I don't like the language.

Why?? Whats wrong with it??

[rohitvats]

He clearly says demonstration is the only thing remaining. He didn't say design/development remaining. They have already been integrated on the Rudra. The electronics are same, only demonstration remaining. Extremely low risk design/development of a wonderful product!

"LCH is ready, we are integrating its weapons, we tried rockets and it was good, we need to try missiles ATGM - anti-tank guided missile, (these) are the ones which we are integrating and we just have to demonstrate that," chairman HAL Suvarna Raju said."

You hair-splitting here.
Can you point me to a data-source which confirms which ATGM has bee selected for firing on Rudra and LCH? Last I checked, the idea of having a foreign ATGM as interim measure has been dropped and it will be HELINA all the way.

And here is an article from June 2016 which says HELINA will be tested in September 2016 with new IIR seeker. The main ATGM is not ready and is NOT integrated fully into the system.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 942240.cms

In September this year, the much awaited missile, as per the highly placed sources, shall be launched from a helicopter platform at Chandan Field Firing Range in Jaisalmer here. The missile as per the DRDO officials shall now be tested for its Imaging Infra Red Seeker (IIR) with far greater resolution than what has been tested so far as per the demand of the users.

It was almost a year back when for the first time in July, HeliNa ATGM successfully hit a simulated target after being launched from a helicopter platform at Chandan firing range in Jaisalmer. Three 'HeliNa' missiles were fired during these week long Guided Flight Trials from HAL Rudra, also known as ALH WSI, the armed version of HAL Dhruv. Of these three HeliNas, two managed to hit the target successfully. HeliNa is handled by the missile handling unit of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

DRDO officials said that this third generation 'Fire and forget' missile, though lagging behind its schedule, has already been tested for its seven kilometer range but with IIR seekers with 128 x 128 focal plane array but added that the same was not sufficient for the users, the Army Aviation Corps. It is one of the five missile systems developed by DRDO under the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP). "And now we are going to test a higher version seeker, with a much higher focal plane array (640x512 pixel arrays) as compared to the original plan. In fact, the captive trials have been successfully held in Bangalore recently," said the official.

Seekers evaluation trials would be carried out for the ATGM in hot desert conditions of Rajasthan against both moving and static targets for different ranges till seven kilometres to evaluate performance of an improved version of Imaging Infar Red (IIR) seeker for engaging and striking the target.

HeliNa has reportedly an extended strike range of about eight kms. Dwelling upon these HeliNa trials scheduled for the month of September, officials said that after verifying the performance of missile with the new seekers, the user shall give its acceptance for integration of HeliNa with the helicopter inching the missile closer to the 'deliverable stage'.

[rohitvats]

Indian Navy inducts in-house ships with radars but no SAMs, sonars but no torpedo and ships with hangers but no choppers. But they do induct those and gradually add everything to it. LCH weapon suite is already operationalized on ALH Rudra. What's wrong in placing some firm orders, is HAL gonna run away with that money?

Don't make virtue out of forced necessities.

[Sid]

Don't make virtue out of forced necessities.

Oh I beg to differ, good sir. As a matter of fact we have been forcibly creating such necessities for quite some time now.

Please refer to this 32 year old article, from 1984. You may find its language very familiar and interesting.
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/fren ... 60805.html

The MiG-21 was originally intended to be phased out in mid-'84 but latest indications are that it will extend into 1985-86 though production will be considerably scaled down in the extension period. In fact, that process has already started with HAL's production schedule for 35 MiG-21s in 1983-84 having been scaled down to 17 aircraft.

The French also point out that Soviet aircraft like the MiG-29 may be cheaper than those available in the West, but actually work out as expensive because of the shorter life-span of the parts. Soviet aircraft engines, for instance, have about half the life-span of western aircraft engines like the Snecma M53 being fitted on the Mirage.

Oh my, I love this quote from this article. 32 years old and statement is soo true even now.

There is also the unquestionable fact that the technology transfer being offered by the French for the Mirage production will offer HAL unrestricted access to state-of-the-art aircraft technology which could be later used for India's own future projects like the proposed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme.

[Gyan]

Does even USA field IIR array seeker equipped Hellfire ATGMs which I understand are the costliest type of ATGMs around in the world?

[Indranil]

On one hand, the Chairman says we're yet to try an ATGM and on another, he says the LCH is ready. These are two contradictory arguments. My guess is that orders will be placed once the system is ready.

Rohit,

The global norm is to induct the flying platforms as soon as they as they are ready. Weapon integration continues in parallel. Therefore, the chairman is saying that LCH as a platform is ready, only demonstration of ATGM firing has to be completed. In this case, ATGM integration is fairly strightforward, thanks to the Rudra experience and the relatively similarity of both platforms. What you are reading about Helina with higher resolution sensors are features of the weapon which will increase its accuracy. There will be no difference with respect to the integration with the platform form earlier versions. However, one has to wait for 18-24 months to complete all weather firing trials. There is no reason to stop induction because of that.

[shiv]

eeeeeeeek!

I don't like the language.

Why?? Whats wrong with it??

This:

We have launched a limited series production, with a confidence and hope that we get definite orders on this

[A Deshmukh]

LCH weapons trials are still to be done.
HAL is spinning a story.