Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 21 Oct 2016 05:35

I think purchase of additional talwars has no bearing on p17A. Those will be constructed as planned.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 21 Oct 2016 05:48

Karthik S wrote:I think purchase of additional talwars has no bearing on p17A. Those will be constructed as planned.

I was talking about P-17 not P-17A. The P-17 procurement was capped at 3, for reasons I do not understand.

John · Post by **John** » 21 Oct 2016 08:11

titash wrote: John - I doubt the 16 cell Barak-8 will be used; more likely the VLS Shtil...the EL/M-2248 radar is just too massive for the Talwar. Not sure if a russian Top-Plate can talk to the BArak-8 fire control system as well.

No they won't have 2248 but most likely 2238 and it will be used in combination with Top plate. It is an active guided missile it simply needs the radar only for tracking and mid course guidance. IN has already ruled out procuring VL Shtil russians have offered it for Vikramaditya and also for upgrades for Shtil-1, little chance they will purchase it as part of this. In fact it is likely Barak-8 will replace Shtil-1 in existing vessels.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Oct 2016 12:07

The number of Talwars built in India may even increase after the first two,with modifications based upon the same hull.It makes little sense to stop just at two for eco reasons.Costwise,these FFGs may give more bang for the buck than other surface combatants being in between the P-17s and P-28s in size.There is no effect on the P-17As,7 being built at MDL and GRSE. If as reports indicate,a smaller version of BMos is being developed,then one could possibly have 16 missiles aboard.Increasing the size of the hangar could also see a UAV along with a Kamov carried.

News about the US-2 amphibs. Setting up a production entity here would be extremely expensive unless we were planning a total of 24" amphibs or even exporting the same.The Japanese are very reluctant about arms exports.Moreover,as repeatedly pointed out,thes eamphibs carry NO weaponry of any kind.Totally useless in an ASW role.Therefore it would be prudent to acquire 4-6 US-2 in a straight buy,setting up a support entity for spares,maintenance,etc. and acquire the BE-200 which can also be sued for firefighting,v.uselfu.This amphib can be used in an ASW?MP role.
Another option,limit the US-2 numbers to 4 and use the balance money to buy a few moire P-8Is.
http://defencenews.in/article/Japan-giv ... ages-18843

Japan gives a further 10 percent discount :: US-2 aircraft deal in final stages
Friday, October 21, 2016
By: The Diplomat
This week, India and Japan have reportedly moved closer toward concluding the first-ever bilateral defense deal between the two countries, unnamed Indian military officials told Defense News. An official with India’s Ministry of Defense (MOD) claims that New Delhi and Tokyo have agreed on a price for 12 ShinMaywa US-2i amphibious search-and-rescue/maritime surveillance aircraft for service in the Indian Navy.

“Japan has offered a price concession of more than 10 percent per aircraft from $133 million per aircraft to around $113 million, and the $1.35 billion government to government deal for US-2 amphibious aircraft is now ready for finalization,” the official told Defense News on the condition of anonymity. Last week, Japanese defense contractor ShinMaywa Industries said that the Indian MOD has still not made an official request for the aircraft.

So far the Indian MOD has only indicated that it would like to purchase two US-2i aircraft in fly-away condition, whereas the remaining ten (sources say that the Indian Navy requirement is pegged at 12-18 aircraft) should be built in India under Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s ‘Make in India’ initiative. ShinMaywa, however, thinks that license-building ten US-2i is impracticable and too costly given the small number of aircraft.

Consequently, while settling on a price shows some progress, it is far from a done deal, as a spokesperson from Japan’s (MOD) told IHS Jane’s Defense Weekly in early October. “In order to move on to stages of discussion on specific conditions of co-operation [the Japan] Ministry of Defense hopes that the Indian side will establish its procurement policy as soon as possible.” Furthermore, “after India has determined its procurement policy we would like to flexibly respond to requests from India and make our co-operation concrete.”

As the The Diplomat summarized in 2015:

Negotiations for a US-2 sale to India began in Japan under the Democratic Party of Japan (DPJ) governments of Naoto Kan and Yoshihiko Noda. The amphibious aircraft sale issue was swiftly picked up by Abe’s government, which has sought to expand Japan’s role as a defense exporter in Asia. In April 2014, the Abe administration formally altered Japan’s decades-old self-imposed ban on selling arms, which effectively blocked Japanese firms from participating in global defense commerce. (For more background on Japan’s export policies, see here.)

In December 2015, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe agreed to deepen defense ties between the two countries specifically naming the US-2i aircraft as a project for future cooperation. Despite that, in March 2016, a senior Japanese government official said that there is no plan for “selling or delivering” the US-2i maritime surveillance aircraft in the immediate future.

“Given its range of 4,500 kilometers (2,796 miles), the Indian Navy was tentatively planning to station the USi-2 aircraft off the Andaman and Nicobar Islands in the Bay of Bengal, from where they would have been able to conduct surveillance patrols of the eastern Indian Ocean region,” I explained elsewhere.

The export of search-and-rescue aircraft would be Japan’s first defense deal in its post-war history.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 21 Oct 2016 13:13

I anticipate following rules for US-2:

- special forces extraction and insertion
- SAR
- logistics with island territories
- support for submarines and ships in distress

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 21 Oct 2016 20:10

Why can't we collaborate with Japan to make a land-only version out of it which could be our MTA and fill the C130J kind of role. It uses the same engines and has some very good technology. This would kill multiple birds such as filling MTA requirement, make in India, and driving down costs due to volumes.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 24 Oct 2016 07:14

Livefist
‏@livefist
Glorious shot! INS Viraat enters Cochin Shipyard for its final refit. Her replacement, the new Vikrant seen on right.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Oct 2016 12:29

Sad to see the Viraat leave Cochin for the last time,en route to Bombay to be decommissioned early next year. Had we had more SHs,it could've soldiered on until the new Vikrant is completed.

The US-2 now looks like a done deal.However,without any ASW capability whatsoever-due to Japan's strict arms export policy,we should reserve the right to equip it with ASW sensors and weaponry ourselves. This would make it more potent .In any case it must have self-protection capability,either in the form of decoys,EW systems,etc.,or even the addition of short range AAMs to counter SAMs fired at it from enemy warships. An ouutright buy of an initial number with the poss. of spares being made locally would be much preferable to setting up a production line as there are other cheaper alterrnatives for ASW amphibs too.

http://defencenews.in/article/India,-Ja ... ssue-18909

India, Japan Solve US-2 Aircraft Price Issue
Monday, October 24, 2016
By: Inserbia.info

India and Japan are all set to strike the first-ever defence deal, as the two countries have resolved US-2 aircraft price issue.

In 2014, India decided to acquire 12 US-2 amphibious aircraft for its Navy from Japan. However, talks between senior officials of the two countries suffered a blow as the Japanese manufacturer, ShinMaywa, refused to lower the quoted price of USD 133 million per aircraft. After two years of tough negotiations, New Delhi and Tokyo have announced that they resolved the issue and the Indian Navy will soon receive all the 12 aircraft.

A top Indian Defence Ministry official confirmed the news over the weekend, saying: “Japan has offered a price concession of more than 10% per aircraft from USD 133 million per aircraft to around USD 113 million. The USD 1.35 billion government-to-government deal for US-2 aircraft is now ready for finalisation.” The official, who wished to remain anonymous, also said that it would be easier for the Indian Navy to monitor movements of vessels in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR) after the acquisition.

Meanwhile, Indian Navy Commodore (Retired) and senior defence analyst Anil Jai Singh has welcomed the announcement, stressing that the Navy badly required the amphibious aircraft to safeguard India’s interests in the IOR. “Carrying out operational logistics support for the naval units (including ships, submarines and embarked assets) at sea, within the IOR or beyond is an operational gap that exists in the Indian Navy inventory,” added Singh.

Defence experts believe that it is a ‘strategic’ purchase, as India is strengthening ties with Japan as a part of its ‘Look East Policy’. They are of the opinion that it is not possible for India to counter China’s growing influence in the IOR and Pacific Ocean Region without Japan’s help. Singh explained: “The strategic importance of this needs no emphasis. It may be the first military export from Japan since WWII and hence sends out a very significant signal on the depth of the Indo-Japan strategic relationship as well as on the geopolitical dynamic of the Indo-Pacific.”

Both India and Japan showed some urgency in resolving the price issue after China announced in July that it had built the ‘AG600’ – the world’s largest flying boat. Talking to the local media in New Delhi, a senior Navy official said: “Once the potential acquisition of US-2 aircraft by India made news, development of the prototype of AG600 became a priority for China. The intended utilisation of the aircraft by China is almost similar to the perceived roles in India. Presence of Indian US-2 in the IOR and AG600 of China in the South China Sea may create an interesting military and strategic balance in the area.”

Senior defence analyst with Ernst & Young India Ankur Gupta is confident that the deal will bring the two countries closer than ever to throw a strong challenge to China. “With this positive movement towards the US-2 purchase, these ties will move to the strategic level. Should some part of the platform be manufactured in India, then it will boost local capabilities as well,” said Gupta.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Oct 2016 12:37

More on the second Akula.However,depending upon the success and speed of building our 6 SSNs,when the time comes ,lease expiry,the IN may want it extended for a while longer given the massive speed of Chinese sub building and the start by 2022/3 of the 8 Yuan class AIP SSKs to Pak.

http://defencenews.in/article/Second-Ru ... akra-18902

Second Russian Nuclear Submarine to replace INS Chakra
Monday, October 24, 2016
By: Business Standard

The Indian Navy will not be deploying a second Russian nuclear attack submarine in addition to the INS Chakra — a “sub surface nuclear” (SSN) vessel leased from Russia for 10 years, from 2012-2022.

Instead, Business Standard learns from government sources in New Delhi that the second SSN that India is negotiating to lease from Russia will only replace the Chakra, when its 10-year lease expires.

Confirms a Russian official source from Moscow: “India would only get delivery of a second SSN by 2020-21. There might be some overlap with INS Chakra but, after its lease runs out in 2022, India will continue to operate just one Russian SSN.”

Russian media reports indicate that a half-built Amur-class submarine in Russia, tentatively named Irbis, could be completed and delivered to India by 2020-21. While the Chakra lease cost $970 million, the next submarine might be substantially costlier.

The defence ministry has been evaluating a replacement for the Chakra even before it came to India. Speaking to the media in April 2012, the day the Chakra joined the navy’s eastern fleet in Visakhapatnam, then Defence Minister A K Antony told the media: “There is a proposal (about a second nuclear submarine) but we have not taken a decision about that.”

Meanwhile, as part of the established Russia-India partnership in nuclear submarines, Russian experts continue supporting the Indian Navy’s indigenous SSN programme, which New Delhi plans to develop into four-six indigenous SSNs. The Chakra and its successor are intended to develop the expertise needed to operate these.

Negotiations on nuclear assets are top secret, which is why there was no mention of a replacement SSN after the 17th Russia-India annual summit meeting in Goa last week between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Vladimir Putin.

However, Indian officials say there are direct linkages between visible programmes, like India’s decision to buy four Russian stealth frigates; and the invisible “strategic programmes” like the lease of an SSN to replace the Chakra, and Russian cooperation in India’s SSN and SSBN programme.

Sources familiar with the “advanced technology vessel” (ATV) project, as the Arihant development programme was called, tell Business Standard that Russian experts played a significant role in helping India build the “shell” for the indigenously developed nuclear reactor, and in installing the reactor in the submarine.

Installing a reactor is a precision task that is vital for a nuclear submarine’s stealth. It involves segregating all moving or noisy reactor parts from the hull by mounting the reactor on a “raft” and using “noise suppression systems”.

Nuclear submarines — both SSNs and SSBNs — have far greater endurance than conventional submarines. When submerged, a conventional (diesel-electric) vessel runs on power supplied by its on-board electric batteries.

When these are drained, typically in 8-72 hours, depending upon how fast it moves, the submarine must surface to run its diesel generators and recharge its batteries. In so doing, it is vulnerable to detection and attack by enemy aircraft, surface ships and submarines.

A nuclear submarine, in contrast, can remain submerged indefinitely, since generating of nuclear power does not require air.

This allows it to silently cover long distances underwater, slip undetected into a patrol area, and lurk in wait for enemy shipping, which it can destroy with torpedoes or missiles before escaping, still submerged.

The Indian Navy currently faces a dire shortage of submarines. Against an assessed requirement of 24 conventional submarines, it deploys just 13. In addition, Mazagon Dock, Mumbai, is building six Scorpene conventional submarines, slated to enter service between 2017-2020.

Due to India’s peculiar coastal hydrography, and its operational requirements, the navy requires both conventional and nuclear submarines. The smaller conventional vessels are needed for the Arabian Sea, which is too shallow in many places for larger nuclear boats. Simultaneously, the deeper Bay of Bengal and Indian Ocean, with their vast expanses, require SSNs to cover.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 24 Oct 2016 12:50

I thought we had an option to buy INS Chakra at the end of the lease period. Has that changed or did we never have any such plans in the first place?

MohdKav · Post by **MohdKav** » 24 Oct 2016 13:38

Half built Amur class sub, Who the hell wrote this piece. Experienced and educated posters in BR should know better

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Oct 2016 13:41

at the end of any lease there is a residual value of the asset and the lessor has the option to buy it off or return it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Oct 2016 13:48

Yes ofcourse they will just renew the lease , Its like both the Akula subs will be operated by IN till the end if its life or around 35 years or so.

After 10 years the reactor will have to be defuelled also the time where it goes through first major upgrade.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Oct 2016 13:53

Don't paste the postman! I cannot alter the content of a report.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 24 Oct 2016 16:32

Shivaliks shouldn't have been stopped at 3 numbers.
Although P17 are much bigger than Talwars but in stealth and noise IR signature they are much much superior to Talwars by many many folds a Navy personnel told me.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 25 Oct 2016 00:20

MohdKav wrote:Half built Amur class sub, Who the hell wrote this piece. Experienced and educated posters in BR should know better

I think it is Coln. Shukla

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 25 Oct 2016 01:01

prasannasimha wrote:

Livefist
‏@livefist
Glorious shot! INS Viraat enters Cochin Shipyard for its final refit. Her replacement, the new Vikrant seen on right.

For a second that word refit made my heart flutter and sink at the same time.
Checked wiki and other places... the refit is to removed machinery and other equipment.

The refit is a retirement and a decomm refit.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 25 Oct 2016 01:53

Will the Baraks be porter over to the Vikrant? The half built Akula would be the Irbis. Hope we keep both till our 6 SSN's are commissioned.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 25 Oct 2016 20:32

Gurus, I was going through the 15B pages in DFI. It's mentioned there that 15Bs majorly differ from 15As in that the former will be have full flush deck and that the huge mast in 15As will be replaced and each radar array will distributed across the ship similar to that of Arleigh Burke.
Will having a full flush deck help in increasing the number of missiles carried by the ships because the 15Bs are said to be 500T heavier than 15As.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Oct 2016 21:07

Not possible due to length of brahmos unless they dig deeper and ship width changes. The strike length sm3 cells are made possible by ddg51 being 3-4 meters wider than our p15a. Same applies to type45.

We need wider hulls and deeper draft to have iphone type flush decks

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Oct 2016 21:11

Big boxy hulls packed with computers and clean burn gas turbines are the future ...the whole low slung racing yacht design we see in our ships is getting on a bit. Number and depth of tubes is life itself now. A tico cg looks like its very unstable but operates in north pac and atlantic nd brings 90 cells and big radar to the fight

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 25 Oct 2016 21:13

But aren't our ships 8 meters longer than ABs? We can try for more rows than columns.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 25 Oct 2016 21:15

Bheeshma wrote:Will the Baraks be porter over to the Vikrant? The half built Akula would be the Irbis. Hope we keep both till our 6 SSN's are commissioned.

Iribis??

Source??

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Oct 2016 21:17

Wont help ... unless you incline tubes like slava class. Beahmos is 3 floors deep and our ships beam decide the draft under water.

For unknown reason the japani 4 kongos are one deck level lower at the main deck than amriki ddg51.

John · Post by **John** » 25 Oct 2016 21:50

Karthik S wrote:Gurus, I was going through the 15B pages in DFI. It's mentioned there that 15Bs majorly differ from 15As in that the former will be have full flush deck and that the huge mast in 15As will be replaced and each radar array will distributed across the ship similar to that of Arleigh Burke.
Will having a full flush deck help in increasing the number of missiles carried by the ships because the 15Bs are said to be 500T heavier than 15As.

Most of that is just pure speculation and incorrect, pictures of P-15B have already been posted and is quite identical to P-15A with exception of few minor design changes to reduce RCS and larger caliber main gun.

Burke has SPY-1 radar on superstructure because of the radar's size, this however greatly reduces it range against sea skimming missiles (for USN its not big concern since have they gazillion airborne platforms that can provide tracking and targeting for missiles). It makes no sense for IN to do the same.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 25 Oct 2016 21:52

We really need to starting building 10T size multi-purpose destroyers. By 2024, we'll only be having 10 modern destroyers. China will field 3 4 times that number by then.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Oct 2016 23:25

JayS wrote:Iribis??

Source??

From wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akula-class_submarine

In January 2015, it was reported that India was involved in negotiations involving the leasing of the Kashalot and the Iribis.

Neither of them are Akula-IIs, so still no mithai!

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 26 Oct 2016 00:10

Rakesh wrote:
JayS wrote:Iribis??

Source??
From wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akula-class_submarine

In January 2015, it was reported that India was involved in negotiations involving the leasing of the Kashalot and the Iribis.
Neither of them are Akula-IIs, so still no mithai!

Saar, I had put a query in some thread asking which one of these two it will be on the day the news broke out, based on this same wiki info.

I thought its finally out, so asked for source.

MohdKav · Post by **MohdKav** » 26 Oct 2016 01:43

INS Vikramaditya is a really beauty, I saw her at the Cochin Shipyard Docks and parked a little away from her INS Jalashawa

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Oct 2016 13:44

Cash strapped UKR does not want to lose Indian orders despite the ships being Russian!

http://defencenews.in/article/Ukraine-A ... gate-28889

Ukraine Agrees to Provide India With Engines for Russian Built Krivak Frigate
Facebook Twitter Google+ Linked in
Wednesday, October 26, 2016
By: SPUTNIK News

Krivak class frigates will be powered by M90FR gas turbines designed and built by Zorya-Mashproekt in Ukraine. Following the Russia-Ukraine conflict, Ukraine had stopped the supply of the engines.

India has convinced Ukraine to provide engines that can be fitted in the improved Krivak class frigates that India is to purchase from Russia. India's Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar said that a consensus had been reached with Ukraine for power plants to be fitted in the Russian made frigates. "Discussions started long back. The only problem was because of the Ukraine-Russia conflict as the ship's power plant is Ukrainian. Now, we will buy the power plant and fit it on the ship."

During the India-Russia annual summit held in Goa earlier this month, an inter-governmental agreement was signed wherein it was stipulated that India would buy four improved Krivak class stealth frigates from Russia. The basic structure of two frigates has already been completed in Russia, while the other two frigates will be constructed at Indian shipyards with associated technology transfer.

"All Indian equipment will be fitted on the frigate. So, it is a stealth variety where we are involved in the design," Parrikar said.

It is expected that a brief discussion on the purchase of stealth frigates will be held during the Indo-Russian Inter Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation meeting scheduled for October 26 in New Delhi.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Oct 2016 13:46

http://defencenews.in/article/India,-Ru ... rrow-28886

India, Russia to hold talks on military ties tomorrow
Wednesday, October 26, 2016
By: Indian Express

India and Russia will tomorrow hold detailed discussions on deeper military cooperations, especially on joint production of fifth generation fighter aircraft, upgradation of Su-30 MKI planes and firming up the contract for the S400 Triumf air defence system. Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu will be arriving here tonight and will co-chair a meeting of the Indo-Russian Inter Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation (IRIGCMTC) here tomorrow with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar.

The two will have restricted meeting followed by delegation-level talks, defence sources said.

It was during a meeting of the commission in Moscow last year that both sides had firmed up plans to acquire the air defence system and other deals which were recently signed on the sidelines of the BRICS meet in Goa.

Sergei Chemezov, CEO of Rostec State Corporation, a Russian umbrella organisation of 700 hi-tech civilian and military firms, had told PTI that they expect the agreement on fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) to be finalise by this year end.

After a hiatus of nearly a year, India and Russia had in February revived talks on the much delayed FGFA project after a clearance from Parrikar.

Since then, a lot of issues related to work share, IPR and technology transfer among others have been sorted out between the two sides along with the monetary commitments.

Under the new offer, India will have to pay about USD 3.7 billion, instead of USD 6 billion, for technological know-how and three prototypes of the fighters, the sources said.

In 2010, India had agreed to pay USD 295 million towards the preliminary design of the fighter, called in India as Perspective Multi-role Fighter (PMF).

The two sides are also expected to discuss the upgrade of SU-30 MKI, India’s front line fighter aircraft.

Russia is also eyeing the multi-billion dollar deal for P75-I project of India under which six conventional submarines are to be built with Air Independent Propulsion systems.

With deals over USD 12 billion in kitty this month, including leasing of a second nuclear submarine, Russia hopes to bag more projects as it termed itself as not just a business partner but an “ally” who stood by India in its “darkest hours”.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Oct 2016 10:43

6 more AIP subs from Russia? Which class is being offered though? Woulfd they also accommodate BMos?

http://defencenews.in/article/India-may ... ssia-28919

India may receive 6 Conventional Submarines from Russia
Thursday, October 27, 2016
By: Inserbia

Sergei Chemezov, CEO of Rostec State Corporation and a close aide of President Vladmir Putin, has hinted that the Russian company is ready strike a multi-billion dollar deal with India to manufacture six conventional submarines for the South Asian country.

Speaking at a press conference in Moscow, Chemezov recently said that submarines with Air Independent Propulsion systems would be built under the P75-I project of India. According to Rostec supremo, they are eager to bag the USD 12 billion deal, as the Narendra Modi government in New Delhi has planned to invite Moscow to join various defence projects launched by the PM. Chemezov described Russia as India’s “close ally” and not just a business partner, saying that Kremlin stood by India in its “darkest hours” in the past. He further said that Russia would do the same in future, if necessary.

The Rostec chief stressed that it would never be possible for the Americans and Europeans to offer India what Moscow could. “We are ready not just to deliver most serious weapons, most important weapons, but continue to give our state of art technology. Next year will mark 70 years of our relationship. It is a long time,” he added.

Meanwhile, Chemezov urged India not to forget that Moscow had stood by New Delhi when it faced sanctions after the 1998 nuclear tests, saying that there was no limit to what India and Russia could do together. “Not so in the recent past (when India was under sanctions), we were pretty much the only partner for India. Russia has been a partner not only in every day military supplies, but also most sensitive and most important supplies, including a nuclear submarine that was rented to India for you to use,” he told the press.

Asked how the US and some European countries managed to strike mega defence deals with India despite the strong Indo-Russia ties, Chemezov played it safe. “It is not a linear sort of relationship. We feel that ties are definitely developing and increasing,” answered Chemezov. He informed the media that Russia recently submitted its proposals for the P75-I project and was awaiting for India’s positive reply.

Foreign policy experts are of the opinion that it is in the interests of President Putin and Prime Minister Modi to show cordial relations between the two countries, each for different reasons. As Russia’s actions in Crimea and Syria have strained its relation with the West, Moscow is trying hard to show that it has “close friends and allies” around the world. For PM Modi, it is important to show that his government’s foreign policy remains diversified and balanced. In recent times, a section of international community and the Indian population has termed Modi’s foreign policy as “pro-American”, thus putting the government under tremendous pressure.

The top political leadership in Moscow is stronger at tactics and short-term planning, than at strategy and long-term foreign policy. On the other hand, the Indian leadership is stronger at strategy and long-term policy. So, we may hope that close co-operation will allow both Moscow and New Delhi to develop strong defence strategies that will make tactical gains in future.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Oct 2016 20:05

The only one I can think of is the still-on-the-drawing-board Kalina Class.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 27 Oct 2016 20:09

If they go for a submarine that's in drawing board stage, it's better to scrap it altogether and go for additional SSNs.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Oct 2016 20:11

The Kilo would be an old design to compete with against the Type 214, S1000 and others. There is a section of Indian submariners that will swear by Russian subs. If they get their way - which appears likely - it will be a Russian boat alright.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 27 Oct 2016 22:49

I hope it has vls for Brahmos-M or Kalbirs. Which can be used for Nirbhays later. AIP is necessary with USHUS and Indian combat system. Don't see why ppl think this should be separate from SSN's. IN will need SSBN,, SSN's and SSK's. No way IN can afford 30-36 nuke subs.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Oct 2016 01:02

Indian Navy Not To Mount Homegrown AIP on Scorpene Subs
http://www.defensenews.com/articles/ind ... rpene-subs

"The decision not to install a homegrown AIP system on the Scorpene submarines appears to be a sound one," said Arun Prakash, a former service chief and retired Navy admiral. "This is an arcane technology, which took France and Germany many years to develop and prove, in terms of efficiency as well as safety. Given state-owned Defence Research and Development Organization propensity for exaggeration and hyperbole, they should first prove the system on land-based test beds, then by retrofitting on an old submarine and only then on a new-build boat."

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Oct 2016 01:12

Bheeshma wrote:I hope it has vls for Brahmos-M or Kalbirs. Which can be used for Nirbhays later. AIP is necessary with USHUS and Indian combat system. Don't see why ppl think this should be separate from SSN's. IN will need SSBN,, SSN's and SSK's. No way IN can afford 30-36 nuke subs.

The Navy, from what I have heard, loves the BrahMos. They think it is the best thing out there since the invention of sliced bread. They are placing it every platform that can accommodate it. And since the BrahMos has its origins in Russia, you can be sure Indian submariners will weigh very favourably to a Russian platform. Since the Lada Class is gone the way of Al-Vida, the next viable platform is the Kalina Class.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 28 Oct 2016 03:49

I understand Brahmos on Talwars and bigger ships but the NG-corvette's? Can they take 8 Brahmos-M's?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Oct 2016 13:18

Good news for the IN who are always ahead of the curve when compared with the other two services. The late date of S-400 entry is puzzling though.One is sure that Russia can easily supply the first sysetms within a year.

https://in.rbth.com/economics/defence/2 ... cts_642433

Russia, India will expand military cooperation with focus on Navy projects
26 October 2016 TASS
The Russian defence minister pointed out that the progress of joint production of Ka-226 helicopters, BrahMos and S-400 indicates technical cooperation with India should be expanded.

India to install modern avionics in Mi-17V5 helicopters
India to test-fire BrahMos supersonic cruise missile in February

Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu, right, and Defense Minister of India Manohar Parrikar at a ceremony of signing a final protocol of the meeting of the Russian-Indian Inter-Governmental Commission on Cooperation in Military Industry, in Delhi. Source:Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation
The Russian and Indian defence ministries have been instructed to expand military and military-technical cooperation, Russian Defence Minister Sergey Shoigu said on Wednesday.

"The extra tasks set in the course of the meeting Russian and Indian leaders held on October 15-16 indicate that we should expand the sphere of our military-technical cooperation," Shoigu said as the Russian-Indian inter-government commission for military-technical cooperation met in session for the 16th time.
!
India could get delivery of the S-400 in 2020 *(so late?)
The parties have already begun a discussion of all issues that are related to the post-warranty maintenance and life cycle contracts for the military technologies to be provided or provided earlier, Shoigu said.

"It goes without saying that we have noted with great satisfaction the progress achieved in our major projects, such as the joint production of Ka-226 helicopters, missile systems BrahMos and air defence systems S-400," he said.

There is a special major program for naval ships, including submarines, Shoigu added.

"I believe that today there is a good opportunity for reviewing the results of the previous year and identifying targets for next year. We are ready to discuss all crucial problems, issues and prospects for our military and military-technical cooperation," Shoigu concluded.

Fight against terrorism
Kadakin: Russia with India. Terrorism is greatest human rights violation
The struggle against international terrorism requires consolidation of all forces and rules out double or triple standards, Russian Defence Minister Sergey Shoigu said on Wednesday.

"What is absolutely unacceptable in the struggle against terrorism is the use of double and sometimes triple standards. Those who are terrorists on Monday cannot turn into moderate opposition on Tuesday. There will have to be fundamental consolidation of all sound forces in the struggle against this ill of the 21st century," Shoigu said at a meeting of the Russian-Indian inter-governmental commission for military-technical cooperation.

He pointed out that the struggle against terrorism was a major issue.